Kitchen Face Frame Cabinet Overlay and Reveal

[stevo wis]

Hi Folks,
I am starting to draw new kitchen cabinets for my home. It will be a long term project. I have two friends who are cabinetmakers and I have gotten different answers about the reveal on face frame stiles.
Cabmaker1 says it is critical to him, that face frame reveal be consistent between outside stiles, between two inward swinging doors, and also if two cabinets meet that the total reveal be the same as stiles on an outside of a cabinet.on
For example, he normally uses 1 1/2 inch stiles, with a 1/2 door overlay, leaving 1" reveal on an outer stile.
When he has to join two cabinets, he again uses 1 1/2 stiles with two of them totaling 3". He then switches the doors to 1" overlay on the affected doors leaving a 1" reveal.

My other friend, also uses 1 1/2 stiles, and his normal hinges use 5/8 overlay hinges, so he ends up with a 7/8" reveal out outer stiles. If he is forced to join two cabinets, he sticks with 5/8 overlay and ends up with a wider reveal. He maintains even if wider, it is not critical.

What do those of you who do cabinets do and think?

Thanks,

Stevo

[Marc Fenneuff]

For my own cabinets I use 1-1/2" rails & stiles with a 1/4" reveal at all door/drawer edges. Adjoining cabinets then have a 1/2" horizontal door/drawer spacing (hope that makes sense). So, 1-1/4" overlay and Blum makes suitable hinges. This is as close to a modern, full overlay look as I feel that I can achieve.

[Ron Citerone]

I am not a cabinet maker but built my own cabinets for my cottage renovation. Knowing what I learned on my job I think Cabinet maker 1's design would give a better looking result. My 2 cents.

On my house cabinets which I installed but did not build, I have a raised panel on each end of the cabinet row. The edge of that panel added 3/4" the end stile reveal. Something to consider. If you make the end reveal larger AND add a panel to the end than the stile width on the end would look wider.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

For exposed 3/8 inset hinges, the old fashioned standard I learned is 1 3/4 styles and rails unless a style will have two hinges back to back, then the style is 2 1/4. Nobody builds that way much anymore. I have had a few requests for this type of cabinetry from folks wanting to keep their cabinetry "period correct". They are in houses that were built in 1910 though 1940.

[Dave Sabo]

I think it's pointless to make framed cabinets unless you're doing inset doors.

I also think partial overlay door look cheap and out of date - like last century.


So..................I'm sure you've guessed I prefer euro boxes. Don't have to worry about this reveal or that. There's one reveal number for every door or drawer or combo regardless of single or double or however many you choose to put on the cabinet.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I think it's pointless to make framed cabinets unless you're doing inset doors.

I also think partial overlay door look cheap and out of date - like last century.


So..................I'm sure you've guessed I prefer euro boxes. Don't have to worry about this reveal or that. There's one reveal number for every door or drawer or combo regardless of single or double or however many you choose to put on the cabinet.

I agree for the most part. Face frame cabinets have a lot of wasted space. Euro cabinets became in vogue in the US in the 1980's and suddenly our Geneva and Youngstown metal cabinets were acceptable again. I am glad we kept them. Now they have achieved the lofty title of mid century modern.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Try to get hold of a copy of Danny Proulx's book "Making Your Own Kitchen Cabinets." His method allows the look of face frames, and the use of Euro hardware.

[Jared Sankovich]

I think it's pointless to make framed cabinets unless you're doing inset doors.

I also think partial overlay door look cheap and out of date - like last century.


So..................I'm sure you've guessed I prefer euro boxes. Don't have to worry about this reveal or that. There's one reveal number for every door or drawer or combo regardless of single or double or however many you choose to put on the cabinet.

Im in agreement, but prefer inset (and beaded) to euro.

As for the original question don't build modular boxes. When you do have two abutting boxes, either do a field joint at the rails or depth offset. I really dont like reveals being different (and I personally don't like to see seams)

[Dave Sabo]

Im in agreement, but prefer inset (and beaded) to euro.

As for the original question don't build modular boxes. When you do have two abutting boxes, either do a field joint at the rails or depth offset. I really dont like reveals being different (and I personally don't like to see seams)

I love the look of inset too. But those are difficult, time consuming , and expensive to execute, especially for the DIYer.

They also eliminate the discussion about door & drawer overlays. :D

[Ole Anderson]

1/2" overlay makes sizing doors easy as you add an even inch to the opening.

[Ron Citerone]

I like face frames and I cannot lie..............................

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I like face frames and I cannot lie..............................

I built our face frame kitchen cabinets with 1 3/4 and 2 1/4 styles. The bathroom, office, and shop cabinets are frameless. Both designs are OK with me. My twin router mortis and tenon face frame set up is dismantled at the moment. It is nice to have it set up and ready to go. It is a quick and fairly easy method for making a satisfying joint that works for doors and simple furniture as well.

[Jared Sankovich]

They also eliminate the discussion about door & drawer overlays. :D

True, but then it just moves to stile/vertical face frame width, and modular vs monolithic frame construction.

[John TenEyck]

Personally, I like Euro cabinets. Less work, cleaner look, consistent overlay. You can still have a variable reveal, up to at least 1/2", and also on the ends with a panel if you use the right hinges or cut back the side of the cabinet and mount the hinges to the panel. Also, there's no consideration for stiles on the ends vs. stiles in the middle of a run. If forced to use face frames, I agree with the comment about hating visible seams where two cabinets meet mid run.

John

[Dave Sabo]

True, but then it just moves to stile/vertical face frame width, and modular vs monolithic frame construction.

um……….no not really.

The discussion is over at that point.


Assuming it wasn’t - individual vs. monolithic frames don’t change the overlay or the width of the rail and stile. But if you just like debating - have at it.

[stevo wis]

Personally, I like Euro cabinets. Less work, cleaner look, consistent overlay. You can still have a variable reveal, up to at least 1/2", and also on the ends with a panel if you use the right hinges or cut back the side of the cabinet and mount the hinges to the panel. Also, there's no consideration for stiles on the ends vs. stiles in the middle of a run. If forced to use face frames, I agree with the comment about hating visible seams where two cabinets meet mid run.

John
I am forced to use face frames here because of some existing cabinets that have to stay. I also like inset doors better but have a ton of doors to do and I am not sure that it is worth the extra work for insets.
My real concern is the same question that I started with. Is it worth the complication of different size hinges and overlays to maintain the same reveal? I am going to avoid joining face frames but will probably have at least oneplace where they join.
I am also trying to come up with a nice door with maybe an arts and crafts look, glass etc.
One last question I have to resolve is which species to use. I am tired of oak, the kitchen floor has dark hickory. I was thinking birch, but that gets kind of wild grain. Maybe a white oak would look good?

I do appreciate all the comments.
Stevo

[John TenEyck]

I am forced to use face frames here because of some existing cabinets that have to stay. I also like inset doors better but have a ton of doors to do and I am not sure that it is worth the extra work for insets.
My real concern is the same question that I started with. Is it worth the complication of different size hinges and overlays to maintain the same reveal? I am going to avoid joining face frames but will probably have at least oneplace where they join.
I am also trying to come up with a nice door with maybe an arts and crafts look, glass etc.
One last question I have to resolve is which species to use. I am tired of oak, the kitchen floor has dark hickory. I was thinking birch, but that gets kind of wild grain. Maybe a white oak would look good?

I do appreciate all the comments.
Stevo

IMO, yes, it's worth using hinges with different overlays to maintain the same reveal. There are plenty of options available within the same series, at least for the Blum ones I've used. It takes more planning to determine which hinges are needed, but less planning and work to build the faceframes because all the stiles are the same.

If you are going with an A&C door then definitely consider white oak; it's the classic wood for that style. It's also been very popular over the past few years, with many folks using a very low sheen, right down to flat, finish. If you can get rift sawn white oak, you will have none of the classic chevron red oak look that probably is what turned you off from that dated look. Rift sawn has a very uniform linear grain, quiet and elegant IMO. Birch? Not for me. Rift sawn ash is nice, too, very much like white oak at much lower cost. Great to work with and takes stain very well.

Good choice not doing inset doors. They would drive you crazy fitting them.

John

[Jared Sankovich]

Good choice not doing inset doors. They would drive you crazy fitting them.

John

JMHO but I don't find it any more difficult. Square is square. If you build square frames, and square doors it's not any more difficult than an overlay door.

[John TenEyck]

JMHO but I don't find it any more difficult. Square is square. If you build square frames, and square doors it's not any more difficult than an overlay door.

You're a better craftsman than I if you can hang cabinets perfectly square, plumb, and in the same plane, and cut inset doors once and have uniform reveals all around and flush with the faceframe, and spend no more time than installing overlay doors. My hats off to you.

John

[Jared Sankovich]

You're a better craftsman than I if you can hang cabinets perfectly square, plumb, and in the same plane, and cut inset doors once and have uniform reveals all around and flush with the faceframe, and spend no more time than installing overlay doors. My hats off to you.

John

Yes, fit once and if square it's not even fitting it's just cutting the doors square and 0.120" undersized leaving .010" for cleanup so you end up with .070" reveals in the openings.

Are you saying you fit each door after hanging the cabinets. That would mean finishing separately as well.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, fit once and if square it's not even fitting it's just cutting the doors square and 0.120" undersized leaving .010" for cleanup so you end up with .070" reveals in the openings.

Are you saying you fit each door after hanging the cabinets. That would mean finishing separately as well.

I don't build faceframe kitchen cabinets anymore, actually, I don't build any kitchen cabinets anymore, so it's rather a moot point. When I did, I fit each door to the face frame, which often required a tweak on the tablesaw, jointer, or hand plane, so that I could finish them before hanging. I still do it that way building stand alone cabinets.

John

[Mark Gibney]

I am going to avoid joining face frames but will probably have at least one place where they join.
I'm inferring from this that you are clear coating the cabinets, not painting?

I am tired of oak
You float the idea of white oak - are you thinking rift sawn? I like the lines, and it seems to be very popular for a number of years now. Designers, even those who know only walnut and white oak, often ask for "white oak with lines".
Ash could be a nice counter point to the dark floors. If you buy 8/4 and 10/4 ash you can get nice straight grain wood for the faceframe, rails and stiles.

[Dave Sabo]

JMHO but I don't find it any more difficult. Square is square. If you build square frames, and square doors it's not any more difficult than an overlay door.

Guess you've never done beaded inset then. Or forgot about the jack miters associated with the frames.


You're a better craftsman than I if you can hang cabinets perfectly square, plumb, and in the same plane, and cut inset doors once and have uniform reveals all around and flush with the faceframe, and spend no more time than installing overlay doors. My hats off to you.

John

There's a reason inset cabinets cost more to produce/buy. All that time adds up - and costs money.

[Jared Sankovich]

Guess you've never done beaded inset then. Or forgot about the jack miters associated with the frames.


I actually posted they (in my opinion) were not more difficult. If you have to fit each door, then yes they are going to take more time. Hanging overlay or inset boxea doesn't make a difference since both should be plum, and in plane regardless of the door type (to be fair rarely build individual modular boxes unless they are designed as singles)
Sure beaded take more time, I didn't think anyone was really talking about beads here, but yes there is a lot more going on so for sure they take more time, just running the beads is a extra pass through the shaper. As for me forgetting about jack miters, I didn't but they are fast to cut, it's not a fair comparison Though since I built a notcher/hauncher to speed that up. So (for me) notching is relatively fast and as easy as hitting a foor pedal.

I posted the notcher on the forum a few years ago
https://youtu.be/KGlid5nTgzM

Op if you like inset cabinets, build inset cabinets.