Auction Shaper - T45 Griggio

[andrew whicker]

Hi,

Just picked up my biggest piece of equipment to date..

I got two of these heads and the parts shown below. What type cutter body are these? I think the brand is Weinig with vertical grooves. Link: https://tooling.weinigusa.com/product-p/50312203.htm

I get it unloaded tomorrow and then I can take more photos and measurements... but shapers are still a bit of an unknown to me. What arbors to buy, what this dinged up aluminum rod is, etc

498052
498053
498054
498055

[Mel Fulks]

Corrugated, or ‘corg ‘ head like I discribed for my bearings

[Kevin Jenness]

Strongly suggest you watch Roy Sutton's videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwdJsT8Sdwc, get a copy of Stephenson's Shaper Handbookhttps://www.amazon.com/Shaper-Handbook-Eric-Stephenson/dp/0941936090, read as many threads on shaper work here as you can stand with special attention to Joe Calhoon's posts and get some in-person instruction from a competent shaper hand. Shapers are powerful and versatile machines with pitfalls for the unwary.

That looks like a nice heavy duty tilting spindle machine. You should be able to do most anything with a 1 1/4" or 30mm spindle. Put a dial indicator on it to check for runout.

[andrew whicker]

Will do. Definitely the most intimidating equipment so far.

[brent stanley]

Those look like moulder heads and though lots of folks run them on shapers, I strongly suggest MAN rated (low kickback, chip limiting) tooling especially for a newbie. It's a nice machine if it cleans up OK and will be a huge asset for your shop, but demand some training/study before you do much with it.

Congratulations, you're off on an adventure!

B

[Phillip Mitchell]

Good to see a few more views of that beast. Share some more up close photos and details of it when you can. Does it have a manufacture year stamped on the spec plate? Looks very similar era to the little, in comparison, Griggio T1000 that I just drug home from ‘85.

I just want first dibs if you decide to sell it ;)

[Jared Sankovich]

Nice first? shaper. Those heads certainly look like moulder heads bushed down to 1.25". Did it also come with the original fence?

[andrew whicker]

Yeah, it did.

It's missing the power button.

And yes, those are molding heads and bushings. It looks like they had them stacked to get a 5 inch tall cut.

I've been looking and I really like the cutter style that allows limiters. I'm not sure which is better euro or corrugated... but the Whitehall site seems to be the easiest to navigate. I'm debating between a rabbet only but full spindle height or a combi 550 mm from them


I bought the shaper book so I'll hold off until I have a better idea.

Sounds like you need a min of a slot cutter (adjustable), a rabbet and a profile cutter. I'd like to have everything MAN rated if possible. I already inherited non MAN cutter heads (molder).

My power feed is 1 hp. I think that's on the low end (?) Which makes me further apprehensive of the molder heads.

[Phillip Mitchell]

1 hp feeder is fine / standard / totally adequate.

If you’re looking at Whitehill you might consider the large Combi head and reach out to Brent (Stanley) either here or on IG. He knows the Whitehill catalog backwards and forwards and very knowledgeable about shapers and MAN tooling.

[andrew whicker]

I'm also a bit confused about something you guys may be able to help with.

If I get the bladed combi head I can use it with a bearing for pattern work. However, once it is sharpened won't it lose the diameter over time?

I was thinking a carbide bit cutter for pattern work. This makes me think the combo cutter isn't as valuable except for their carbide cutters at the corners.

So I'm still figuring it out I guess.

[brent stanley]

I'm also a bit confused about something you guys may be able to help with.

If I get the bladed combi head I can use it with a bearing for pattern work. However, once it is sharpened won't it lose the diameter over time?

I was thinking a carbide bit cutter for pattern work. This makes me think the combo cutter isn't as valuable except for their carbide cutters at the corners.

So I'm still figuring it out I guess.

Hi Andrew, that combi head is a great option for non-industrial users because it's a fully featured, no compromise combination of two of the most often used blocks for a lot of users for much less outlay than seperate blocks. For operators really pushing efficiency and counting the minutes of their day, clearly seperate blocks are more versatile, but these blocks are very popular with small shops doing professional work, but just may not be using their shapers 40 hours a week.

The limiter section uses HSS knives that can be custom ground to your specs but also a huge selection of inexpensive knives "off the shelf" too that can be tipped in carbide if desired. The rebate block section uses reversible carbide inserts to make the straight cut. A bearing can be had that matches this diameter and will always match because the carbides don't get sharpened, just reversed when dull and reinstalled to keep the diameters matching perfectly. The carbide spurrs make clean inside corners. The spurrs and carbide inserts do not need to be removed when using knives and limiters in the limiter section. The block can be used flush mounted on the top of the spindle too for one sided tenoning if you want. Your machine could certainly run the larger of the two options which permits the heavier steel knives (as well as the regular 4mm steel) for more versatility.

[brent stanley]

A good starter set is going to vary a bit by what the person is or will get up to but I'll go out of a limb and say many folks would benefit from the following:

1 - A 96x55 limiter block. This is MAN rated and lets you run the inexpensive 40mm x 40mm knives for Euroblocks that are common in North America, as well as the huge collection of 55mm knives that have more reach and allows higher profiles.
2 - A Z4, dual shear rebate block at 125mm diameter. A great pattern, rabbiting, widthing block. Whitehill's are designed to be stacked with the 96x55 block to make sticking profile and rebate in one pass if desired for simple doors/windows.
3 - 4-15mm adjustable groover. This has enough range for groove and panel passageway and cabinet doors and is the set I use most often.

If you wanted deeper profiles the Z4 rebate could be replaced with a large combi which runs thicker steel and leave you with a Z2 rebate block, or a separate block could be bought for that running either pin knives or corrugated in limiter style. If you did a lot of pattern work, a matching bearing would be good too, or set yourself up with a ring fence. Not many folks doing raised panels nowadays, but if that's popular in your area, that might be more important than others. The options really are almost limitless, but starting with the versatility of a limiter block allows you to figure out what products you end up making mountains of which would justify an investment in more sophisticated carbide insert models with faster set-up and longer run times. If you end up making mountains of kitchen doors you can invest in an insert style kitchen door set, but still have the immensely versatile limiter blocks for other things you get up to.

Hope this helps more than overwhelms!

[Mel Fulks]

You just move the knives to the next corg . “ I’m your next -corg neighbor “. And bearings of different sizes can make for
more exact placement.

[Jared Sankovich]

I'd say this pretty well covers most applications.

4-15mm groover
20-39mm groover/tenon discs
125x60 alternating shear rebate head
120mm euro block
Insert pattern head
Corrugated head.
498100

[John P Clark]

Looks like a nice heavy duty shaper - if you have not used a shaper in your shop, I would suggest that you attend the alpine workshops for advanced woodworking - in four days you would learn how to best utilize the shaper in your workshop

[Mel Fulks]

Yes , a good array. I’ve used mainly old fashioned smooth shaper knives and corg stuff. Using corg with a bearing ,it’s often hard to
get the cut at exactly the right depth. I had a set of 3 bearings made that divide the space of one corg into 3 parts . By using the right
size bearing I can get the cut in the right place.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Looks like Jared covered it pretty well.

As Mel noted above, getting a bearing that matches the OD exactly of the carbide / helical spiral type head (or other - Corg / straight knife type head) is nice and allows for amazing results when flush cutting and template work.

You have maybe seen a few videos I posted on IG last year of my 4x4 spiral helical head with matching bearing. I would like to have another smaller and shorter one as well that has a tighter radius and a shorter overall height for different sized work that is easier to bury under the table and/or doesn’t show so many teeth if using bearing on the bottom.

As you may be gathering... lots of different ways to do stuff on the shaper and the tooling tech and safety has evolved over time. MAN rated and carbide insert tooling is very nice for the most used / heavy hitters and then having some type of Euro / combi head style block where you can choose from a wide array of off the shelf (or custom ground) high speed steel profiles, etc for the one off / lesser used situations is a good way to go if building your tooling collection from scratch.

I started learning about shapers 2-3 years ago when I got my first one at an auction and still feel like there is so much I don’t know, but reading shaper threads here and other places can really open your eyes to the possibilities. I would love to be able to afford the time and $$ to take a week long shaper class with Joe / Alpine Workshops in CO, but that’s a bit out of reach for me these days.

The adjustable groover is also one of my most used cutters. I have the 4-15mm Whitehill set and it seems to cover almost all scenarios I encounter and goes thinner than most, but it’s nice to have a thicker set as well that is rated to be inverted / flipped and can be used with a space between the 2 halves for smaller tenons. I can’t remember if my 4-15mm is rated for this application or not.

Show us some photos of the meat and potatoes on that machine - spindle, OEM fence, the guts under the hood, etc. That model looks to be a similar size and capacity to the old SCM L’invincibile T160, though I doubt the Griggio has a re-circulating oil pump system for the bearings.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Forgot to add: Post a few photos of the roller wheels on the power feeder and folks here may be able to advise on if you should replace or not. They definitely wear and loose their grip over time and all tires are not created equal.

I really like the yellow (duro 60?) tires from Western Roller. You can call them up and tell them the make/model of your feeder and they can supply exact replacement wheels + tires that bolt on to your existing shaper for a reasonable price and will likely be much better than what is there currently, assuming they are not new.

[brent stanley]

I really think versatility is your best friend in your first tooling selection. Getting professional quality results with flexible tooling is very rewarding but let's you reflect on what you can justify spending additional money on in the way of "one trick ponies" that would probably be more efficient, but more expensive too.

No question some tenoning tooling would be great, but am going to suggest it's a bit more advanced and might be good to hold off till some experience/training is aquired.

Stephenson's book: "Spindle Moulders Handbook" would be a great thing to accompany any new tooling!

[brent stanley]

Forgot to add: Post a few photos of the roller wheels on the power feeder and folks here may be able to advise on if you should replace or not. They definitely wear and loose their grip over time and all tires are not created equal.

I really like the yellow (duro 60?) tires from Western Roller. You can call them up and tell them the make/model of your feeder and they can supply exact replacement wheels + tires that bolt on to your existing shaper for a reasonable price and will likely be much better than what is there currently, assuming they are not new.

I have settled on the yellow ones too. 15 years ago when I got my first power feeder, the wheels had very little wear so looked great but had hardened up and lost their grip. The problem was I didn't know what they were supposed to feel like new untill I worked on another machine and realized mine were well beyond the expiriy date! Fresh wheels are a treat.

[andrew whicker]

I couldn't find a way to add photos from my cell and by the time the day was over yesterday I was ready to just chill out. Here are some photos and potential problems I see or just simply issues I haven't had time to look into more.

1) Missing button lower right on panel (on / off switch I'm guessing?)
2) How do I take off the saw blade? Anyway to brake the motor w/o electricity?
3) The lever that switches between height and angle adjustment to be driven by motor: the switch works for height, the lever does not move / fully engage with the height adj
4) There is another lever on the side panel that goes to a cable line (beefy version of a rear derailleur cable) that is disconnected. It's a really long cable. It's from the lever on the upper left called Libro / Free. Is this used to stop the arbor from spinning?
5) I am assuming the top panel green button with lever are the brakes for the arbor?
6) The power feeder tires definitely need replacement.


It's resting place (yes my shop is constantly getting organized and undone. It's also quite ugly. Enjoy :D):
498110

Top Panel:
498111

Side Panel. I'm not sure what the Libra / Free lever is supposed to do. Lock the arbor from turning or lock the arbor from moving vertically. I think the first. There are knobs to turn into both the vert shaft and the tilt shaft that stops movement. I also don't know what the middle upper knob does yet.

498112


The insides. You can see the buried pulley / motor. That motor is for the height and tilt. It is not fully engaging for height.
498113

The Libra / Free lever from the inside of the box:
498114

The loose end of the cable:
498115


The spindle, etc raised up. Looks like a nut, two bushings and then the blade. Can't tell if those are just spacers beneath the blade or what. Not sure how to get the blade off / loosen the nut.
498116

The table has been ridiculously dinged.
498117

[Jared Sankovich]

+2 or I guess 3. You can't go wrong with WR and yellow wheels.
498118

[andrew whicker]

498119

What I'm assuming is the original fence.
498120

And for your viewing pleasure. I hired a guy that does tractor work to unload it for me. He was a tractor ninja. I took this photo before he drove his truck over and let it rest over the blade because we couldn't add enough weight. Then I drove out from under the forks and he let the pallet down. Took a lot of ingenuity to get it to it's final resting place. We even got to do a little Egyptian roller magic.

Also, I never stop enjoying the view from my garage door. : )

(Trashy trailers in background not mine. Shared space)

498127

[andrew whicker]

Anyway, today is a hustle handyman day so I won't have a lot of time to explore this stuff and I've gotten behind on some quotes for April / May work which is obviously right around the corner. Will probably not have time to do much (a few hours here and there) for this week.

[Jared Sankovich]

1) Missing button lower right on panel (on / off switch I'm guessing?)

It's missing the e-stop button

2) How do I take off the saw blade? Anyway to brake the motor w/o electricity?

The spindle lock needs to be engaged



4) There is another lever on the side panel that goes to a cable line (beefy version of a rear derailleur cable) that is disconnected. It's a really long cable. It's from the lever on the upper left called Libro / Free. Is this used to stop the arbor from spinning?

Yes that was the spindle lock, it looks broken. That pin end of the cable should be mounted in the quill.

5) I am assuming the top panel green button with lever are the brakes for the arbor?

Green Button looks like the start button. The first switch looks like a remote selector for the power up/down and power tilt on the base. The second switch is fwd/reverse

Edit to add that is a 9hp (6.6kw) motor per the data plate. I only mention as your moulding post has it as 4hp. If you are using a rpc or vfd and you thought it was 4hp you will need to verify the sizing.

[andrew whicker]

What do you think the lever is right above the green button? that looks like a brake symbol.?

They found some way to install and un-install cutter bodies, etc without the cable attached.

[andrew whicker]

I will have to clean out the wood chips and take off the side panel to see what is going on. All of the mechanisms are hidden from view. I'm not sure why the height / tilt lever isn't pushing all the way towards height. Probably just something easy to see and fix without the cover on.

re-lube everything, etc.

[Phillip Mitchell]

On my Griggio that black switch above the green button is a master on/off switch. On position then green button will start the motor. The off position will kill the motor / stop the spindle but my machine (T1000) does not appear to have a brake on it so it just coasts down.

[andrew whicker]

On my Griggio that black switch above the green button is a master on/off switch. On position then green button will start the motor. The off position will kill the motor / stop the spindle but my machine (T1000) does not appear to have a brake on it so it just coasts down.

Ahhh Okay. Now I get it. So there are two way to kill it: e button or lever.

[andrew whicker]

Edit to add that is a 9hp (6.6kw) motor per the data plate. I only mention as your moulding post has it as 4hp. If you are using a rpc or vfd and you thought it was 4hp you will need to verify the sizing.


Ah,you're right. I've been doing so much back and forth research I must have had something else on my mind. Anyway, my leased building is a POS in many ways, but it has tons of power. I have plenty of 3 phase power and breaker space. Thanks for seeing that.

[andrew whicker]

1)
2) How do I take off the saw blade? Anyway to brake the motor w/o electricity?

The spindle lock needs to be engaged



4) There is another lever on the side panel that goes to a cable line (beefy version of a rear derailleur cable) that is disconnected. It's a really long cable. It's from the lever on the upper left called Libro / Free. Is this used to stop the arbor from spinning?

Yes that was the spindle lock, it looks broken. That pin end of the cable should be mounted in the quill.



I keep hoping that the arbor is going to be use-able, but since the spindle lock is not attached, I'm assuming they are using pliers. Going by the rest of the machine I'm starting to believe I'll need a new arbor... I'm looking forward to removing the saw blade and seeing what my arbor looks like.

[Phillip Mitchell]

No reason to assume the worst on a machine of that quality. Some monkey probably broke the spindle lock cable connection and no one ever fixed it would be my guess. This is often what you get with an auction machine - someone else’s neglected problems, but the good news is that it’s maybe an easier fix than you think and it’s worth fixing, especially for the price you paid ;)

It would be a good idea to check the runout on the spindle with a dial indicator and magnetic base (ideally with no cutters or spacers on the shaft and the indicator tip directly touching spindle shaft)...just to see what you’re working with and if there is an issue with spindle runout. I don’t know what the gold standard is for this in terms of tolerances but I like to see 0.001” of total movement or less on a machine like that that could be swinging pretty large / beefy cutters

[andrew whicker]

I sincerely appreciate your help in finding it : )

I was wondering about the runout check. I guess what I will do is use a few accurate squares to get the spindle as square as possible to the table before measuring runout. But I could get a false reading pretty easily if the arbor isn't completely vertical..

Thoughts on how to deal with that? Maybe the only thing I can do is measure the runout, move the tilt, etc until I get the least runout possible and that will be my runout.

[Kevin Jenness]

I sincerely appreciate your help in finding it : )

I was wondering about the runout check. I guess what I will do is use a few accurate squares to get the spindle as square as possible to the table before measuring runout. But I could get a false reading pretty easily if the arbor isn't completely vertical..

Thoughts on how to deal with that? Maybe the only thing I can do is measure the runout, move the tilt, etc until I get the least runout possible and that will be my runout.

No, the indicator test is not dependent on the spindle being square to the table. To check for square, clamp a 12" straightedge between spacers on the spindle and rotate it, checking for clearance to the table with feeler gauges. If it is significantly off you should be able to shim the quill housing under the table.

You may be able to fix the spindle lock cable with bicycle brake parts. That worked for me on an SCMI 110.

[andrew whicker]

No, the indicator test is not dependent on the spindle being square to the table. To check for square, clamp a 12" straightedge between spacers on the spindle and rotate it, checking for clearance to the table with feeler gauges. If it is significantly off you should be able to shim the quill housing under the table.

You may be able to fix the spindle lock cable with bicycle brake parts. That worked for me on an SCMI 110.

Oh right. Because I'm only measuring movement from one side. Man, losing my machine shop brain.

[brent stanley]

I sincerely appreciate your help in finding it : )

I was wondering about the runout check. I guess what I will do is use a few accurate squares to get the spindle as square as possible to the table before measuring runout. But I could get a false reading pretty easily if the arbor isn't completely vertical..

Thoughts on how to deal with that? Maybe the only thing I can do is measure the runout, move the tilt, etc until I get the least runout possible and that will be my runout.

What you're looking for is a way to "tram" the head. It's something commonly done on machines like vertical milling machines etc, to make sure the spindle is perpendicular to the plane of the table. It will be a bit of a pain on your abused table, but many folks take two straight edges and clamp them on opposite sides of the spindle between two spacers. Snug is all you need, no need to go full grunt on the top nut, and then using an indicator attached to one of the straightedges downwards touching the table you spin it around 360 to see what the readings say. You will bump up and over surface imperfections so you'll just have to get a sense of the general lay of the table. I would check the spindle runout first because the spindle will affect the tramming more than the tramming will affect the spindle reading, but both are important. If you find run out on the spindle you can remove it, clean all the mating surfaces in the quill assembly and reinstall to check again. If it's still there, you can remove the spindle and set it in some machinists "V" blocks to verify if it's the spindle itself or the quill. I will see if I can find instructions on this , I know they're out there, but if you have a machinist friend, they would know all about this. A good set of steps on a new machine.

[Jared Sankovich]

What you're looking for is a way to "tram" the head. It's something commonly done on machines like vertical milling machines etc, to make sure the spindle is perpendicular to the plane of the table. It will be a bit of a pain on your abused table, but many folks take two straight edges and clamp them on opposite sides of the spindle between two spacers. Snug is all you need, no need to go full grunt on the top nut, and then using an indicator attached to one of the straightedges downwards touching the table you spin it around 360 to see what the readings say. You will bump up and over surface imperfections so you'll just have to get a sense of the general lay of the table. I would check the spindle first because the spindle will affect the tramming more than the tramming will affect the spindle reading, but both are important. If you find run out on the spindle you can remove it, clean all the mating surfaces in the quill assembly and reinstall to check again. If it's still there, you can remove the spindle and set it in some machinists "V" blocks to verify if it's the spindle itself or the quill. I will see if I can find instructions on this , I know they're out there, but if you have a machinist friend, they would know all about this. A good set of steps on a new machine.

And because this is a tilting machine it's really only important to have the spindle in "in tram" parallel to the axis of the tilt. The perpendicular axis can and will be adjusted with the tilting mechanism.

[brent stanley]

And because this is a tilting machine it's really only important to have the spindle in "in tram" parallel to the axis of the tilt. The perpendicular axis can and will be adjusted with the tilting mechanism.

If you're going through the effort, I would be inclined to try and have vertical as indicated on the machine be in fact vertical whether by adjusting the quill/table or by tweaking the indicator if needed, but verifying that it stays that way through it's course of movement would be a really good idea too. I believe I've seen instructions in old machine manuals for how to do this.

[Bill Dufour]

To get spindle 90 to the table look for "tramming a bridgeport head". Make up a bar like the photo from ebay but the center hole large enough to go onto your spindle. Easier to make it accurate if you use only one dial indicator.
The longer the bar the more it will multiply any defiance but too long and things may hang up in miter grooves.
Bill D.

[Steve Jenkins]

to check for 90° I just use a good 12” metal ruler and clamp it on edge between two spacers on the spindle then measure with a dial micrometer at several places between it and the table as I rotate the spindle by hand. When checking run out on the spindle it doesn’t really matter if it’s 90° or not. You’re using a dial indicator stuck to the table with the tip against the spindle again rotating by hand.

[andrew whicker]

If you're going through the effort, I would be inclined to try and have vertical as indicated on the machine be in fact vertical whether by adjusting the quill/table or by tweaking the indicator if needed, but verifying that it stays that way through it's course of movement would be a really good idea too. I believe I've seen instructions in old machine manuals for how to do this.

Yeah, that's my thought as well. I was wondering when I'll "know" the arbor is 90 to the table. There is a sight glass, but that's only going to be so accurate. I still haven't plugged it in yet. I need to run some power to it first.

[Joe Calhoon]

An easy way to check 90 to the table is a trusted square and a thin feeler gauge. Feeler gauge and straight edge work good for tramming also. I just clamp a straight edge between spindle spacers. And use another spacer to check between the table and straight edge.
to measure runout you will need a dial indicator and mag base.
I set up a new Griggio 45 a few years ago. I believe it had a adjustable bolt for a stop at 90 degrees.

[John Erickson]

Very nice shaper. Download the Aigner safety accessories catalog, they build exceptional accessories for shapers, saws, etc.

[andrew whicker]

A little update. A friend and I found the spot where this control cable is supposed to go into the spindle to act as the spindle lock! Good news. Now I can "manually" lock the machine and have found the broken thread.

Semi bad news.. I can't find a replacement yet by Google so I think I'll be sending this to a Control Cable manufacturer and have them build me a new one. Would be nice to come up with a better cable routing. The harsh bend that was designed in is why the cable housing is so destroyed in the one area. Not sure how to fix that or if it is worth it...

498862
498863
498864

[andrew whicker]

So, Sunday / today have been spent in the continual brain teaser called 3 phase power (for me). After discussing w/ an experienced electrician, PhD electrical engineer, Googling, and lots of solo problem solving I think I'm finally back on track.

The machine has two motors: One is the 9 HP single speed spindle motor. The other is a 1/2 HP single speed motor. Both are 3 Phase motors. The small motor is for raising / lowering the spindle and tilting the spindle. You have to hold a lever down while it works, it shuts off after you release.

So... the small motor was humming but not making any movement. I switched between no load, spindle height, and spindle tilt in short bursts. The last short burst let the magic smoke out.

My shop has Delta 3 Phase power at 220v (most are 208v, but for some reason my measures 220v). I think most newer 3 Phase power is Wye. Feel free to Google around, but the Delta system has a 3rd leg that is higher voltage than the other legs when measured from leg to neutral. Wye allows all the legs to read the same voltage leg to neutral. Both types measure the same voltage drop between legs. I also think Wye = Gamma but must have been changed to "Y" because Gamma looks like an upside down "Y". (https://hvacrschool.com/podcasts/single-phase-3-phase-split-phase-explained-podcast/)

When you have Delta you can NOT accidently use the 3rd leg for anything but 3 phase power or else you will send 208 v (220v in my case) single phase to whatever you are plugged into. Hence why the Wye is more popular.

My first thought was, "Oh Man, I just fed a single phase 110 v motor the wrong power and fried it!". Turns out I didn't do anything wrong. I think instead the motor had no way to breathe. It has been submerged in saw dust for so long that I think the fan was probably stuck or could move enough air to keep it cool. So I think I probably over heated it enough to melt some insulation. I also think the motor was probably done for before it came into my hands. I do wish I took the time to remove it, completely clean it, etc. Re-install before running. Oh well. Life happens.

The big motor fired up just fine. However, the name plate is a bit confusing and definitely confused me for a bit. So a little more Googling and it turns out that most 3 phase motors have at least two different ways to wire them (low voltage and high voltage). However, unlike the other 3 phase motors I've run into this one didn't have a schematic on how to wire it for either. So I was a bit concerned because it seemed to me from looking at the name plate that it needed 440v to operate at 9 HP while I could only give it 208v.

BUT, it turns out V_delta is the same as wiring for low voltage and V_gamma is the same as wiring for high voltage. So now I just need to wire it up for low voltage and I'm good to go. (https://www.pumpsandsystems.com/motors/why-wye-why-delta)

So, now I'm going to either re-build this Italian small motor or I'm going to buy a new Baldor ($230) to replace it. So, feel free to ignore this thread, but it was a lot of fun to problem solve this stuff and learn more about 3 phase. I'm not an expert by any means and I could definitely be wrong about some things, but I'm pretty sure I have it mostly right.

3 Phase Supply (Delta)
498918


Nameplate _ Small Motor.
498910

Small Motor _ Wired for High Voltage
498911

Big Motor _ Nameplate
498913

Big Motor _ Delta vs Gamma wiring per motor mfg website
498914

My Panel w some personal touches : )
498915


Safety First
498912

[Bill Dufour]

I can not see much of the little motor but it looks like a normal motor. Just match up voltage, rpm and shaft diameter. For three phase I am very comfortable buying used from the bay.
It is probably an IEC frame motor. You could use a NEMA frame motor with some shims and either bore out or shim down the pulley bore. Or just replace the entire pulley. Looks like a good place to use the harbor fright link belt.
Doing motor replacement like this I prefer to add a short cord with male plug to the motor while it is on the bench and a cord with female cord end coming from the switch gear. Reduces standing on your head doing wiring in the dark inside the machine. Also makes trouble shooting much easier. Just run an extension cord to the motor and see if it runs.
That lets me cut the cord near the bad motor to remove it, saving time unwiring it.
The 9Hp motor probably costs to much to get matching three phase plugs to make it worth the trouble.
Bill D.

https://www.baldor.com/~/media/files/brands/baldor-reliance/resources%20and%20support/backcover.ashx

and compare here
https://www.baldor.com/Shared/pdf/nema_chart_04.pdf

[Malcolm McLeod]

…The big motor …. this one didn't have a schematic on how to wire it for either.
498912

Can’t see pics, but have you checked inside the pecker head? Larger motors may have a hi/lo wiring diagram there, rather than on the riveted data-plate.

[Bill Dufour]

Re: the brake cable how often will you use the brakes? Might not be worth the time to design it to make it last longer if seldom used. foam sleeve or bungee cords might work to bend it to a larger radius that will last longer. look at corner brackets for bending pex pipe for ideas.
Bill D.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Apollo-1-2-in-Plastic-PEX-B-Pipe-90-Degree-Bend-Support-with-Mounting-Bracket-PXBEND12/301541126?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D26P-026_001_PIPE_FITTING-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-PMax&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D26P-026_001_PIPE_FITTING-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-PMax-71700000097492030--&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuJmfsJuO_gIVCjKtBh1zIwt8EAQYBSAB EgKp6fD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[andrew whicker]

Thanks much!

The frame size is causing the most grief (71A). The only ones I could find on the Baldor site that shared that frame size were designed for 220v @ 50 Hz. When I read about that, it sounds like the idea of V/Hz means I would have to provide like 280 v @ 60 Hz to the same amount of output power?

The speed on this motor also seems kind of oddball: 3300 RPM.

However, this motor just raises / lowers, etc. so I guess speed isn't that important...

[andrew whicker]

I didn't find it, but it's not a big deal. Their website told me how to wire it for Low Voltage.

[andrew whicker]

OHHH..

So frame 71 ~= Frame 56. That helps a lot. Thank you!

[Bill Dufour]

Any chance the small motor pulley is taper lock? On my 1967? saw I replaced the motor with a single phase one with a smaller shaft. It was taper lock and I was able to get a brand new inner part that fit the new motor and the old pulley. I seem to remember I bought a complete pulley with the inner taper to fit. The new outer pulley would not have worked but I did not care. The original pulleys are four groove and some oddball spacing between groves no longer made.
I have no idea about European taper lock standards, if any.
Bill D

[andrew whicker]

A few more updates.

I got a switch (hopefully) working. At least according to my continuity testing. I had a switch that was only turning on my motor in one direction. Filed the points / contacts and it is now passing continuity.

Made a short video of it on YouTube (since no video uploads on this site. I'll be awaiting my massive new income stream

Also, due to the new electric in my shop I turned on the power feeder for the first time (and cleaned it a bit). It has the most confusing labeling with regards to speed. No idea what the tech writers were thinking. So I'm making my own label to clear up confusion for myself. 4 speeds for each gear setup for a total of 8 speeds.

500812

Link: https://youtu.be/SjfG5k5lxH8

The feeder gear configuration at the moment:
500813

[andrew whicker]

All new zerk fittings and new grease for the feeder. Eight total. (And motor on the planer).

500827

Whew.

[andrew whicker]

To do list:

New control cable
De burr removable rings
Fab spindle removal tool
Replace secondary motor
Order tires for feeder
New canvas dust catcher thing

Also, if I want a cutter head that sits on top / flush with the spindle do you think I can have a local machine shop thread the top? Or do I need I buy a new spindle?

500828

500829

[Greg Quenneville]

Did you not get any spacer rings for the spindle shaft? If not there are many online sources. I can’t recall now but I may have bought some from Grizzly for my 1 1/4” spindle.

Greg

[Jared Sankovich]

To do list:

New control cable
De burr removable rings
Fab spindle removal tool
Replace secondary motor
Order tires for feeder
New canvas dust catcher thing

Also, if I want a cutter head that sits on top / flush with the spindle do you think I can have a local machine shop thread the top? Or do I need I buy a new spindle?

500828

500829

You are going to need a stub spindle. Likely a machine shop item.

[andrew whicker]

Yep. Have spacers. Finally got the breaker today and the direction switch works! Both directions for a few minutes work! Woot

[Bill Dufour]

Shaper spindles are often a standard machine taper on the bottom end. Like a morse or Jacobs taper. Probably has a drawbolt in from the bottom. It could also be something more European like a Jarno taper. You will have to pull it out and measure it or take it to someone who can measure it for you.
If you get one made it is going to be cheaper to get another one made at the same time with different top diameters or lengths. If you may need that latter. Setting up the taper is the hard part. The straight section and threads is easy.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

I saw mention of Morse taper 5 for a Griggo shaper on practical machinist. So look up those measurements and compare.
Bill D.

https://littlemachineshop.com/reference/tapers.php

[Jared Sankovich]

Shaper spindles are often a standard machine taper on the bottom end. Like a morse or Jacobs taper. Probably has a drawbolt in from the bottom. It could also be something more European like a Jarno taper. You will have to pull it out and measure it or take it to someone who can measure it for you.
If you get one made it is going to be cheaper to get another one made at the same time with different top diameters or lengths. If you may need that latter. Setting up the taper is the hard part. The straight section and threads is easy.
Bill D

No drawbar. That class shaper has a dual thread castle nut that pulls it into the taper. Mt5 is common for euro machines that size. The thread size differs between makers.

[andrew whicker]

Just an update for fun. It's now fully operable, but not totally complete.

I think this is a comprehensive list of things I've completed / to do:

- Re-wired small motor (tilt and lift)
- New bearings in big motor (took to a professional)
- New spindle (matching old spindle via Woodworkers Tool Works in Wisconsin)
- Took apart and cleaned fence
- Built new fence face
- Changed out tires on power feeder (Western Roller _ yellow duro)
- Changed out all grease gun fittings and new grease
- Cleaned out wood dust behind tilt and lift pulleys
- Built a spindle removal tool (quick and dirty metal fab project)
- Fixed a "bad" switch (CW / CCW switch) by filing contacts

Tooling:

- Came w/ two moulder heads (Weinig)
- Purchased two 125 x 55 Whitehill combi heads (for simple shaker style... next time I'll buy the pre-made cutters with both negative and positive profile. The more you know.)
- New spacers
- New 30 degree cone head from Whitehill w/ big radius cutter (for speaker job)
- New adjustable (4 to 15 mm) Groover
- New bearing for combi cutters (template work)

Things to do:
- Need to new cable for spindle quick lock
- Motor guy didn't know how to fix electric brake on big motor... may never fix this considering the cost
- Get all handle locks on fence so that it is easy and quick to use / adjust
- new cloth below spindle to catch all woodchips
- buy better test indicator (my current ebay vintage brown and sharpe is nearly useless)
- Would like to build an in shop version of the Felder fence

507996

508001

508002

[Bill Dufour]

Probably cheaper to use power brakes from a VFD rather then rehab the mechanical
brakes on the motor. And no moving parts to wear or get gummed up with sawdust.
Bill D

[Warren Lake]

post here past says that burns or wears capacitors if runing on a roto, not a thing id want. Ive never had to replace any so far. Who cares about electric brakes do all the machines in your shop have them realize diff wind down times and some Wadkin stuff that takes a few days to come to a stop. Elect brakes in this girigio dont work either zero issue with that