What 10’ sliding saws should I consider?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I’m about to pull the trigger on a slider. I must have at least 8’ travel, but really want 10’. We have contact with a salesperson at Felder. I am seeing Makisawa has something at a lower price, but I know nothing about them. I know Laguna also makes a slider. The object of this post is mainly to discover what brands I should be looking at, and what experience you have with them.

*** I really want single phase, because 3 phase is going to cost me too much to install.

[Steve Jenkins]

If you can wait I suggest going to the AWFS in Vegas. You will be able see and touch many different ones.

[Aaron Inami]

Don't buy the 8 foot Felder slider. It is basically a 7 foot table with a 1 foot half-size extension. Most people are disappointed when they get it. The 9 foot or longer tables are fine.

Maksiwa is another Asian import brand like Laguna or Grizzly. I don't know much about them, but I suspect they will have the same general Asian machine quality.

If you are looking at Maksiwa, then you are at the lower cost point. The SCM/Minimax is another option.

[Lisa Starr]

Take a look at MiniMax. I have a smaller one and really like it.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would far rather have a used Altendorf or Martin in good shape than any one of the saws previously mentioned. For example https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/867430361236209/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A9f12a263-85f8-4bcd-8481-2c9824df8716 A rotary phase converter need not be that costly and allows for accessing industrial machinery.

[Rich Markiewicz]

I agree w Steve and Kevin. Go to a trade show and see them in person. Seeing a new, e.g. Martin, may get you looking for a good used one. Good luck w your decision...

[Dave Sabo]

What’s your target budget ?

What’s your use case ? Hobbyist doesn’t really need Martin quality but an operation running a skid of sheetgoods a day , everyday will realize the xtra spend.


They’re a BIG price differential between a new Makisawa and a new Felder or SCMi saw. And an even bigger jump to Altendorf and especially Martin.

[Jim Becker]

SCM/MiniMax S315WS

[Jamie Buxton]

AWFS July 25-28 Las Vegas

[Aaron Inami]

Typical sliding table saw weight: 1500-1600 lbs (i.e. Maksiwa, typical Felder, Minimax, etc.)

Step up: 1900 lbs (Felder K940s / Kappa). More rigid chassis/frame.

Step up: Altendorf WA80 / F45 or SCM Nova (about 2200 lbs).

Top end: stuff like Martin and upper end SCM, typically 2800+ lbs. These typically have oversized cast iron tables on the rip side of the blade in addition to a much sturdier platform.

[Chris Parks]

Malcolm, if this is for primarily for panels have a look at a vertical saw as they have lots of advantages over a panel slider saw. They take up less floor space, are easier to load etc. They are usually more expensive but with the floor space that is saved a short stroke slider would work for smaller stuff.

[Christopher Charles]

Malcolm,

Not close, but this just popped up on FB marketplace in Spokane WA:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1905312113165474/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post

Would need a VFD.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I appreciate all the replies- sorry for the delayed response, as I was building wood racks all day, and celebrating my daughter’s birthday!

This is for a bespoke furniture shop. We mostly make one-off creations. We needed a saw with high accuracy and like the idea of a large slider not just for sheet goods, but for straight cutting edges on rough sawn lumber, and cross-cutting. I am planning to build a number of large chopping block tables as a regular moneymaker. I also will be building a lot of doors. The main reason for the 10’ slider for me is I would use it to straighten edges more than I would sheet goods, but for sure I want to be able to run 8’ sheet goods and 8’ lumber as a minimum. I found when I worked in a shop making mostly doors that I used the full 10’ very often. We have a lot of potential customers needing custom-made doors for historic homes which typically have very tall doors- 9’ isn’t unusual.

Accuracy is everything. We pride ourselves on high level of perfection, and it is part of our value sell. This is probably the most important deciding factor: dead-on repeatable accuracy. Mark used a Felder when studying in England and I am familiar with them as well, which is why we reached out to them. Forgive me, as I don’t have the info in front of me, but I believe the model we are considering is the K500S with 10’ slider. This is just an example of where our mind is and what we are considering, but again the post is to make sure I have considered all options before I buy.

Budget is up to $12,500.

Since we are now back in the US, a standard arbor would be preferred over metric, only because of availability of blades. We actually prefer to use metric and wish our beloved country would just get on board with that. I would prefer not to have to special order blades and replace my dado set. It wouldn’t be a deal breaker, however, if the right saw had a metric arbor.

There is a used Altendorf nearby that I will inquire about- not sure if it is single phase. The building we are in has 3 phase available, but to run it to our shop would cost almost as much as the saw. I do not want to deal with a phase converter. I am happy with 5hp single phase. I don’t do high enough production to justify the cost of running the three phase. Mostly not doing anything over 8/4 except when I trim the ends of the chopping block tables and I’m ok with going slow and multiple passes for those.

I really appreciate the replies- all have been very helpful.

[Kevin Jenness]

If I had the space I would have a Martin. As is, I have a Paoloni 260, whose footprint works in my shop. I would say it is comparable in build quality to Mini Max or Felder 500 series. It is quite accurate but not heavy duty. Compared to a Martin it's more lightly built and the adjustments, the crosscut fence lock for instance, are more easily disturbed. I keep an eye out for that sort of thing and it works well for me. A Martin is designed to be used every day for decades in a factory setting while maintaining its accuracy and adjustment. In your situation a Felder or MiniMax should do fine although I would look closely at the differences between that series and the upscale models.

I'm a believer in buying used for value as most machines are kits which require some kinks to be worked out. If I can lay my hands and inspection tools on a machine in service I have more confidence in it than hoping the qc on a new unit is ok and there is a meaningful warranty. There are some used Felders on Woodweb and Facebook Marketplace now that might be worth looking at.

I get wanting to stick with single phase supply. I used to feel the same. I will say though that with my preference for used gear I should have started out with a phase converter instead of waiting 30 years. You are not likely to find a single phase Altendorf. Variable frequency drives are another alternative for individual machines, especially good when you want speed control.

Whatever you get, since accuracy and repeatability are important, think about getting digital readouts on both the crosscut and rip fences. They will pay off in short order in a busy shop.

Good luck with the new venture, sounds exciting.

[Bradley Gray]

Malcolm, Another plug for RPC. I did start with one 45 years ago and have 22 machines connected. I have never needed to replace any motors.

[Jim Becker]

Budget is up to $12,500.

Since we are now back in the US, a standard arbor would be preferred over metric, only because of availability of blades.

That pretty much puts you in SCM/Minimax. Give Sam Blasco a shout.

[David M Peters]

Last year I got the SCM Minimax 315es and am happy with it. It's still approximately within your budget. I like that its 1" arbor lets me use cheaper, easier to acquire blades.

The slider & outrigger were amazingly well-calibrated right off the crate. The rip fence was canted away from the blade a bit more than I prefer but I also understand that's how they ship. Easy enough adjustment though.

My only complaint is that its dado support creates a gap between the wagon and blade - about 3/4" instead of the usual small clearance one would see on a slider. This is a nuisance when trying to rip narrow stock with a Fritz & Franz jig because there's that much less material support.

Good luck with the hunt!

[Aaron Inami]

We mostly make one-off creations. We needed a saw with high accuracy ...

Accuracy is everything. We pride ourselves on high level of perfection, and it is part of our value sell. This is probably the most important deciding factor: dead-on repeatable accuracy.

If this is an important element, you may want to consider a DRO flipstop from Lamb Toolworks:

https://lambtoolworks.com/dro-flipstop

In addition to the "repeatable dead-on accuracy", this model has the flip-stop on the right side of the module. This means that you can make cuts that are closer to the blade. The Felder flip-stops have the stopper on the left side of the module, which means the smallest cut you can make is about 7" (which is often too larger). The DRO flipstop is expensive at $1350, but it is worth it for "dead-on repeatable cuts". If this is something you would consider, I would reach out to Lamb Tool Works to make sure because their DRO will "only work with some 500 series models".

The SCM Minimax flip-stops appear to be mounted with the flip-stop on either the left or right side. However, Minimax arbor size is the standard/smaller 16mm or 5/8". The Felder arbor sizes are all 30mm with locator pins.

[Alex Zeller]

Are you set on new? If not I would keep an eye out for used. IRS auctions usually has several. I've not looked into getting a single phase machine but I think 3 phase is almost a must. I have seen several Altendorf sliders sell for about half your budget that looked like they were in very good shape. That would leave you plenty of your budget left over for a rotary phase converter and shipping to get the saw to your shop.

[Alan Kalker]

Whatever you buy, make certain that you will have adequate support nearby at a reasonable price. Felder/Hammer is noted for great equipment and lousy service at a VERY high price unless they have a dealership near tour shop. I have their jointer/planer. 5 years ago it would have cost me around $600 trip fee plus several hundred more for tech time to realign my machine. I declined. I love the machine when it is al aligned but wouldn't buy from them again.

[Dan Friedrichs]

There are nice 10' sliders that show up all the time, used, for <$5k. Here's one right now on IRS auctions: https://www.irsauctions.com/popups/paddle/?lot=460576&auction=TWCC637R17WOL27KSY38XIYG6DR0OI&id=25706

Don't shy away from 3phase - you could get a 7.5HP Phase Perfect for $2k: https://www.phaseperfect.com/enterprise/230-volt/pte007/

[Derek Meyer]

Malcolm,

Not close, but this just popped up on FB marketplace in Spokane WA:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1905312113165474/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post

Would need a VFD.

Wow, if I had the space I'd go take a look at that saw. That's a great price even if you need a VFD for it!

[John Pendery]

I would echo what several others have already said. The field becomes so narrow if you restrict yourself to single phase machines, and with your budget you can find a good used industrial machine along with a method to run it off your single phase power (whether you choose rotary phase converter, digital converter like a phase perfect, or a VFD). I don’t think you need to process a unit of sheet goods a day to justify an Altendorf or a Martin, but this is subjective obviously. I was searching for a 10’ slider a while back and wound up with a 12’ Martin T72A in good shape within your budget. I’m very glad I have those extra 2’ of travel! Good machines will materialize out there if you are patient and keep a consistent lookout. These larger sliders are very heavy so be very careful loading/unloading with a forklift!

[Mike Hoyt]

I have had a Minimax SC4E now for about a year and have nothing but good things to say about it. It has a 8.5' table and I rip full sheets all the time with no problem at all. If I had a little extra room in my shop I would have gone with the 315 but I dont feel limited in any way at all. I believe you can get the 315 in single phase so that would check another of your boxes. I dont believe the price difference between the SC4E and the 315 is very much. Overall one of the best upgrades to workflow I have made so far

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Again, thanks for the replies.

Buying used is for sure an option, but I have to see it and try it first. I am considering some locally available, but nothing yet has been more than someone else’s problem being passed on. One didn’t tilt;another the powered fence didn’t move; and another was just old and worn; but I’m still open to the idea of buying used.

Three phase will cost me $10,000 to run the wiring and requires permits and, this being a leased space, that’s out. A phase converter is an option, but only if I get a deal too good to pass up on a 3 phase saw. If new one has single phase as an option, I will likely go with that option.

Good grief, I thought $12,500 was a high budget. I am seeing saws for more than 3 times that. I don’t need or want electronic moving fence and height adjustments. I worked at a shop with a $$$$$ slider with all that stuff and it was constantly broken. I am sure it is nice for a large production shop, but I am not that big and I really kind of enjoy the good ol’ manual way of doing things.

Felder is still in the lead so far for new options. Lots of bang for the buck.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Whoops- somehow posted a pic of “Irma.” She is for sale, by the way, and I would take partial trade for a saw!

[Jim Becker]

The Felder/Hammer and the SCM/Minimax are likely going to be the best options for new because you can get single phase with the capacity you want (AFAIK) and in general, for what you want, there are none of the fancy electronic movements, etc., that come at the next levels up (even with those brands).

$12K is really tight for your specifications as you are finding out. Two years ago, the S315WS had a list price of about $10K. But that was...two years ago. (But whatever it is now, it includes all the goodies and doesn't require a lot of extra expense for accessories) So as you compare machines, be sure to be having things configured like for like in case there is a need to add things to a machine to do that with a cost attached.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The Felder/Hammer and the SCM/Minimax are likely going to be the best options for new because you can get single phase with the capacity you want (AFAIK) and in general, for what you want, there are none of the fancy electronic movements, etc., that come at the next levels up (even with those brands).

$12K is really tight for your specifications as you are finding out. Two years ago, the S315WS had a list price of about $10K. But that was...two years ago. (But whatever it is now, it includes all the goodies and doesn't require a lot of extra expense for accessories) So as you compare machines, be sure to be having things configured like for like in case there is a need to add things to a machine to do that with a cost attached.

Yes, thanks for the input. We actually upped the budget to $12,500 because that’s what the K500s is going to be, and at the time I thought that was top end price. Wow. I got schooled! It’s cheap for a new one of these. I now know that.

[Jim Becker]

Yea, that's only top end for the lowest end machine. LOL (which is not a qualitative statement since these are all great machines...just a line positioning thing) The list price of my new short stroke SC3C was higher than the list price of the 2005 era S315WS it replaced, respective of when they were each purchased...by a surprising amount. 15 years will do that.

[ChrisA Edwards]

If I have single phase 230V, in my garage, if a saw requires 460V 3 phase, is that something I can generate?

I have VFD's for my lathe and CNC, both converting to 3 phase 230V.

[Aaron Inami]

If I have single phase 230V, in my garage, if a saw requires 460V 3 phase, is that something I can generate?

I have VFD's for my lathe and CNC, both converting to 3 phase 230V.

Phase Perfect has models that will upconvert 230V to 460V before doing the 3-phase conversion. It is, essentially, a step-up transformer on the single-phase 230V input. Just keep in mind that 460V is harder on capacitors. You really don't need 460V unless you're running something really huge like a 25HP motor.

[Phillip Mitchell]

If I have single phase 230V, in my garage, if a saw requires 460V 3 phase, is that something I can generate?

I have VFD's for my lathe and CNC, both converting to 3 phase 230V.

You can also do this downstream of the phase conversion with an actual step up transformer that is rated to the proper kVa for the load.

I have an RPC into a 3 phase sub panel (that powers all my machines except 1) and on one circuit I have 7.5 kVa 3 phase step up transformer that outputs 480v 3 phase for an industrial drill press I acquired that is 480v only. This is in my basement shop which is all tied to the same 200 amp single phase panel for the house.

Malcolm,

Just my opinion: You will get way more bang for the buck if you can find a suitable used industrial sliding saw close enough (that checks out properly upon inspection) and just budget the ~$3k or whatever it is for a Phase Perfect digital phase converter. Then you will always have the 3 phase capacity for any other 3 phase machines that come up down the road, of which there will likely be many and for much better prices than new or hobby grade single phase. You have the budget to get something like a Martin T71 / maybe T72 or nice condition/steel ways Altendorf F45 and the best digital phase conversion if you have a bit of time and bandwidth to look. Just my 2 cents.

[Ronald Blue]

There is an Altendorf F-45 in Jersey City NJ if it's still there for $5500. It's on FB and there is an SCMI SI 320 in Philadelphia for $2000 also FB. The group is Everything USED Woodworking Tools and Equipment.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Malcolm, don't worry about blade arbour sizing, you can have all your blades bored and add pin holes for about $20 each. I bored most of my blades when going from a cabinet saw to a slider.

Same for your dado stack, except price is higher due to the number of pieces.

All blade manufacturers make all their blades in whatever bore you want.

If you're going to use a dado you're going to need a saw with an overhead guard.

Good luck, have fun.......Regards, Rod.

[Kevin Jenness]

If you're going to use a dado you're going to need a saw with an overhead guard.


Why is it any more important to have an overhead guard with a dado than with a single blade?

[Jacques Gagnon]

Kevin,

I believe Rod’s comment relates to the fact that in many (most? all?) cases the dado precludes the use of the riving knife, hence the need for the overhead guard as a safety measure.

Rod will correct me if I have erred.

Jacques

[Kevin Jenness]

I see, thanks.

[Matthew Hills]

You can see someone with a Maksiwa at Dusty Lumber Co:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpVrjWV--gQ&t=143s

[Bill Dufour]

I would think the riving knife would be too tall for a smaller dado stack. Most dado sets are 1-2" smaller diameter then the saw blade they replace. If they were the same diameter the riving knife could stay but it would not provide any safety.
Bill D

[Aaron Inami]

Generally, the stock blade guards attach to the riving knife and are a pain to remove/re-attach for DADO blade purposes.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

Hi Malcom, I recently went through this myself and finally took delivery (I'll add more on that below). I put a tremendous amount of time into research and getting my hands on many of these machines. I am a 20yr professional woodworker, but was new to sliders and learned a lot, especially on this site. Most of the folks on here are going to say check out a used machine, and I checked out many...but a lot of that is going to come down to how much time and effort you want to put into a search and are you willing to do the work to get it and also work with any issues that may arise. If you are then there are opportunities to save a considerable amount or buy a machine for your budget that you would otherwise not have been able to afford. This can be a long an difficult task....took me about a year to finally make it happen. Now, if you're not on board with doing that and are only interested in a new machine then what are your best options at your budget....

Felder - Maybe the 500 line is approachable, but there's a better chance that once you outfit it, it will be over your budget (at least a little). So you're probably into the Hammer line, maybe you can get the K4 but that might also be slightly over budget. The k4 is the only one of the Hammer line that will be offered in a full length slider. The k4 is basically a 500 without the X-Roll. Both are a fine machine and can do most of what you will ever need. The main difference with stepping up to higher levels is going to be available accessories and heft of build. Those are things that need addressing early on to see if it will accommodate your needs both now and at least the foreseeable future.

I got my hands on multiple machines, from Hammer all the way up to Format 4. And was able to see a lot of the features and shortcomings of each. None of them is perfect, but the further up the line you go the more you get (though not always commensurate with the price increase). Accessories from Felder are not cheap, if you have the time to wait or attempt to negotiate you should wait until a sale or the like and can save a significant amount. They have a lot of accessories and their product info on those is not great regardless of how good the product itself is. I have found them to be a more highly engineered product to most of the competition, but that is not necessarily a good thing when it comes to self or outsourced service. Their tech support is pretty good on the phone, but I have heard it is extremely expensive for in person tech unless you are close to HQ. Their sales.....difficult would be the right word. I was very happy with my salesmen and like them, but not necessarily the way their operations run, I'll leave it at that.

SCM - You're probably looking at the SC4 at this price point. I don't know if you can get a 315 machine at your budget. The main difference I have seen with SCM vs Felder (which are the 2 biggest names in the US probably) is that the SCM seems simpler built, which can be a good thing, and sometimes the steel seems a little heavier than the comparable Felder. The SC level is really direct to both the hammer and 500 lines, and the 315 and Nova are more in line with the 700 machines.

I tried several machines and was almost set to buy 2 of them (both used), what changed my mind I can't say....They are built solid and seem like they will last forever. The motors appear to be more solid to me, but I don't have any real experience to say that short of my short visits. They don't seem to offer quite as many bells and whistles as Felder, but appear to make up for that with what I have heard to be great service (at least by comparison). That said, when I did make phone calls (not to Sam) they went unanswered....

Maksiwa - If you're looking at these I suggest the Titanium model (BMT) - This saw offers a lot for that 10k number and clicks just about all of your boxes. The short coming is of course it is a lesser known brand in the US, with unknown support, and it comes with a 2yr warranty. All that said, I did actually manage to track one of these down and play around with it for a while.....here's my take (and I'll do a post on this eventually) it's a solid saw. I was very impressed with the machine and it made my decision making process really difficult. I have to say it was probably the most quiet machine I have ever tried, I could barely hear it running in a relatively quiet shop. There was no vibration either through the machine which said a lot considering any other machine I tried including Altendorf I could always feel something (mind you small). The slide was incredibly smooth, and it comes with a ton of features that you have to pay a lot more for through other brands. The BMT is made in Taiwan the black model is China. It has a DRO on the rip fence that worked perfectly. The only shortcoming I could really find and was told by the staff at that shop, was the overhead guard. It wasn't it's use, it was that it was always getting clogged. Now I can't say why that was maybe a design flaw or maybe it was also part of their duct design. I don't see how it could really be the case. I spoke with their rep Viktor several times and he was very nice an informative, but I cannot say anything about service or support with the exception that the shop I tested it had it in service for 2 years and has had no issues. For 10k, there's a little risk involved, but as a machine it felt like great bang for the buck.

Cantek & Laguna - These are also Taiwan machines I believe and I think you can throw the Rikon in this mix too. They seem decent, probably on par with the Maksiwa machine in terms of built (possibly even made in the same factories) but I wasn't able to track one down to try or get my hands on.

Altendorf - The f45 is of course a great machine and workhorse. If you can get a used one in great shape that came from a small shop then you might find a decent deal. But you'll still probably be looking at a 20yr old machine in the 10k range maybe more. I tried several and almost bought one. They are all 3 phase so you are going to have to get a convertor....more $. They and Martin are more or less the tops...you can't afford a new Martin either and will be looking even older probably for the money. These are true industrial level machines, and to be honest outside of heft of build and maybe that goes for the motor too, they're not going to offer you much more.

Lastly would be Robland - You can find good deals on these used and I have head that they are very decent machines. Low and mid models are definitely comparable with much of the above...their higher end stuff is probably pretty nice, but again outside the pay grade. I did manage to get my hands on 1 and it was nice, nothing stood out to me as either great or of concern.

1ph vs 3ph - This can only be answered with the question of where do you see your shop going and what do you see yourself ever needing. For me I had no foreseeable need of another machine that would require 3ph. I don't have room for a wide belt or a large CNC and already have a 16" J/P so made sense to stay single phase. Single phase will also hold its value much better than 3ph if you sell down the line. But don't discount the possibility that you might still need a little electric work to support the new machine...you may you may not.

What did I do??? Well, I was on the fence on several used machines and couldn't commit for one reason or another. The Maksiwa was always on my mind as clicking more boxes and being brand new with some warranty. But then another used machine came along (which belonged to a member here I believe) a Felder K700S that was being offered used (2019) direct from Felder. It was either that or a really good deal on the top of the line K3 new. After going back and forth many times to nail down all the details I went for it. When it arrived it looked virtually new and I have been very happy so far. I hope it stays that way, but I can tell you it is a very capable machine with very few shortcomings far as I can tell so far. I had it delivered and set it up. I think I finally have it pretty set, but we'll see. It is single phase which puts it only at 4hp (That's Felder's single phase motor). That said I was going from a 3hp cabinet saw and figured, hey it's still more power and I hardly ever needed more before. I'm still learning and running it through its paces, but so far it's a good purchase.

At the end of the day, I have a feeling that if you have accessed your needs correctly, you won't be unhappy with any of these machines. The biggest thing is getting the features you feel are important to you, and just because it might not come stock with them or even offered by the manufacturer, doesn't mean you can't get something that covers that need or have it made. I'm sure over time some will prove more reliable than others but if you don't abuse the machine you'll probably**** have less issues than otherwise.

I'd be more than happy to discuss in more details my experience, if you or anyone is interested drop me a PM and we can plan a call.

[Jared Sankovich]

There is an Altendorf F-45 in Jersey City NJ if it's still there for $5500. It's on FB and there is an SCMI SI 320 in Philadelphia for $2000 also FB. The group is Everything USED Woodworking Tools and Equipment.


That scmi is broken and that Altendorf is one of the ones with phenolic ways.

[Ronald Blue]

That scmi is broken and that Altendorf is one of the ones with phenolic ways.

That would explain why the SCMI seemed to good to be true. I didn't research it so wasn't aware of that. So the F-45 is one to steer clear of?

[Steve Jenkins]

I have an F45 that I bought new in 1992. It has phenolic ways. They have never given me any problems but I’m a full time mostly one man shop and take very good care of my machines.

[Phillip Mitchell]

The way I understand it is when the phenolic wears unevenly / wears beyond tolerance that replacement is difficult / expensive / perhaps not practically feasible. I think they are fine saws if the ways are still within spec and not worn unevenly or too much, which is entirely likely and possible with a one man shop saw owned from new.

There is obviously a large risk factor when buying one of these 25-30 yr old + Altendorfs that may be worn beyond spec and seems like the only way to really know that is to check in person, which unless local, can be a monumental waste of time.

I don’t know what year the phenolic ways started but I think they went to steel sometimes in the late 90s, from what I have seen, though I am not an Altendorf expert by any stretch.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Thanks again to all for the wealth of information. Special thanks to Kurt for the details and advice.

I am all for going 3 phase with a converter, but it adds $2,000 or more for a converter or $10,000 to have the shop wired. I was very bummed to find out it cost that much when the main building has 3 phase run to it, but it is a long run to the shop, and wire, fittings, and labor add up.

Today we have a call with Felder to say yea or nay to the K500S. I have looked online at all the used saws mentioned above, and yes- the SCM one mentioned had issues, as did nearly all the others I have looked at so far. Some issues were minor, but they were red flags to me for buying used. I’m not against driving 250 miles or so to look at the right used saw. So far no used saw looked good enough to make that drive. The idea of a new saw with warranty and no hidden issues is worth a little extra $ to me. I am very surprised at how expensive the new and used saws are. I really thought my $12,500 budget was high. It is apparently entry level.

A couple of saws popped up recently that almost fit the bill, but were either too short of a slide, had something wrong, or were just too far away.

My business partner read a very bad review about one of the top brands listed in this thread and he is adamantly against that brand. I won’t say which brand. I don’t think one bad review warrants repeating here, but it was from a well-respected maker, and he had lots of problems.

One thing for sure- I need this saw. I bought a bunch of rough sawn lumber this weekend and I was really wishing I had a slider to straighten edges.

[Kevin Jenness]

Have you checked out this one? https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/243504904765484/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A83a2002e-eb0a-4996-9215-d14a790e552f May be too far from you or have problems but that model is a very solid design with no electronics to glitch out.

I understand the motivation to buy new and probably most new machines pan out, but I have certainly seen enough warranty/customer service issues on new European machines discussed here to be skeptical. At least discuss with your rep how they will deal with any problems that may arise so you are not surprised.

What is the lead time on a new Felder saw these days? When we ordered a Felder mortiser 10 years ago I was surprised how long it took to show up.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Have you checked out this one? https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/243504904765484/?ref=search&referral_code=null&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A83a2002e-eb0a-4996-9215-d14a790e552f May be too far from you or have problems but that model is a very solid design with no electronics to glitch out.

I understand the motivation to buy new and probably most new machines pan out, but I have certainly seen enough warranty/customer service issues on new European machines discussed here to be skeptical. At least discuss with your rep how they will deal with any problems that may arise so you are not surprised.

What is the lead time on a new Felder saw these days? When we ordered a Felder mortiser 10 years ago I was surprised how long it took to show up.

1989 is a bit old. Is that the year it was made?

Felder has a 10 year parts/labor warranty. They also send a rep to set it up. Lead time is normally 3 to 6 months, but they have one in stock ready to ship- two weeks to door. I found an Altendorf 3phase used in a cabinet shop for $10,600 but it’s been hard used and no warranty, and I would have to break down, load, ship, unload, and setup. We are already a working shop, so that’s down time for me.



^^^ None of what I just said is meant to be unappreciative. I appreciate all leads. I’m just documenting reasons for my decisions, especially since this may help someone else down the road. The warranty is a huge deal for a working shop. I worked in a shop that had a very fancy slider that was always down, to the point that the guy got a used one for backup. The main reason it was down was the digital automated fence and blade height kept breaking. This was a well-known name brand. This is another reason I want to go with a new saw for a professional shop. Down time is costly.

[Kevin Jenness]

1989 is a bit old. Is that the year it was made?

Felder has a 10 year parts/labor warranty. They also send a rep to set it up. Lead time is normally 3 to 6 months, but they have one in stock ready to ship- two weeks to door. I found an Altendorf 3phase used in a cabinet shop for $10,600 but it’s been hard used and no warranty, and I would have to break down, load, ship, unload, and setup. We are already a working shop, so that’s down time for me.



^^^ None of what I just said is meant to be unappreciative. I appreciate all leads. I’m just documenting reasons for my decisions, especially since this may help someone else down the road. The warranty is a huge deal for a working shop. I worked in a shop that had a very fancy slider that was always down, to the point that the guy got a used one for backup. The main reason it was down was the digital automated fence and blade height kept breaking. This was a well-known name brand. This is another reason I want to go with a new saw for a professional shop. Down time is costly.


Yes, 1989 year of manufacture. It's old, but if not abused may well last another 34 years. Basically the end of the pre-digital era for Martin. Totally agree with your comments on the time investment on a used saw and the vulnerabilities of electronic controls. I think, without personal experience of that model saw, that the Felder will probably be a good investment and perform well for you. In stock is a real plus. Keep the ways lubed per mfr's specs, and consider adding aftermarket dros if the saw doesn't come with them.

How long is the K500S table?

[Jim Becker]

If the Felder is available immediately like that, it's a no-brainer situation for me for sure, especially with that "new saw smell" and warranty.

[John Pendery]

Sounds like you have made up your mind on the Felder, and sounds like a good decision for your needs. I think making the argument for and against specific saws and manufacturers is almost pointless on these forums as we all have different needs, wants, and biases. I’ve heard horror stories of every manufacture with or without warranty, so I try listen to all of those one off stories with an open mind.

Aside from the saw itself, it might be of benefit to consider certain items to include in your budget or a future purchase that increase productivity, safety and accuracy.

Aftermarket DRO’s from proscale or Lamb toolworks along with his parallel guides can be a game changer if the saw doesn’t come with these from the factory. I highly recommend the airtight clamps that Mac Campshure makes. They not only keep the work strongly secured to the slider, increasing accuracy and productivity, but can also increase safety significantly. I know you can use other means of clamping the work down, but man these are pretty slick, and so fast and easy to use that you will actually use them on every cut.

Good luck on the new saw purchase!
498717

[Patrick Kane]

For what it's worth--and ive expressed this opinion before, apologies for the potential redundancy--but i own a 2005 Felder KF700 and i have also previously owned 1970s Martin T17 and T75. I would rather operate the Felder over the Martin. In fact, i kinda made that decision when i sold the Martins and kept the Felder. Other factors played a part in that decision, but the older saws lacked design features of contemporary saws. I wont argue build quality-- Martin is amazingly impressive-- but unlike jointers and bandsaws, sliders have come a long way in the last 40+ years. Now, i am dying to get my hands on a 90s or newer Martin, because I think my opinion would flip the other direction. There is an early 2000s t72a on woodweb that piques my interest. I dont have the space or the inclination to move a 10' slider into my basement shop right now. Congrats on the new purchase.

[John Pendery]

Patrick I was looking at that Martin on woodweb the other day. If everything is working properly seems like a decent price for that saw. I have the same era T72A but mine is lacking the overhead guard/assembly. The hand wheel on the left side of the saw that adjusts the rip fence was a big upgrade from the older T72’s where you had to walk around to move the rip fence. I love the old T17’s too! Not nearly as efficient or versatile as the newer saws, but such cool solid, and smooth running saws.

[Kevin Jenness]

For what it's worth--and ive expressed this opinion before, apologies for the potential redundancy--but i own a 2005 Felder KF700 and i have also previously owned 1970s Martin T17 and T75. I would rather operate the Felder over the Martin. In fact, i kinda made that decision when i sold the Martins and kept the Felder. Other factors played a part in that decision, but the older saws lacked design features of contemporary saws. I wont argue build quality-- Martin is amazingly impressive-- but unlike jointers and bandsaws, sliders have come a long way in the last 40+ years. Now, i am dying to get my hands on a 90s or newer Martin, because I think my opinion would flip the other direction. There is an early 2000s t72a on woodweb that piques my interest. I dont have the space or the inclination to move a 10' slider into my basement shop right now. Congrats on the new purchase.

I'm curious what design features make you favor the Felder over the old Martins. I've used a Martin T75 (old cast iron), a 1984 T72 much like the one I linked to and a new T60C, as well as an SCMI Si12, a Griggio SC3000 and a Paoloni P260. Aside from the handwheel operated rip fence with digital readout on the T60 and scoring on the newer saws I honestly don't see that much difference in how the various saws operate, except that the Martins just have a solidity and overall quality level that the others lack. The motorized blade movement in my opinion is more of a liability than an improvement (yes I'm a dinosaur). I loved the hydraulic blade controls on the T72. The T75 rip fence lacked a fine adjuster and the magnified cursors of the T72, would have benefited from a longer table stroke and had a somewhat cumbersome blade tilt control but it was a great saw with a lot of character. Maybe Felder has something special I am not aware of.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Thank you for all the feedback, which was very helpful. I did consider every option suggested. We officially decided on the Felder K500s and made the deposit to hold it while we transferred funds. The powermatic sold in 3 hours, so that money went to the saw. We are keeping the Woodtek 10/12” interchangeable arbor saw mainly so I can run my 5/8” bore dado stack and crown moulding cutter, and also for those smaller cuts that are easier to do on a cabinet saw. (Original plan was to sell both saws, but I won the argument to keep the smaller one.)

So/ in about two weeks I’ll have the new saw!!! I am glad I went with new, which is very rare for me- I am a fan of saving money on used, but for this machine I wanted something that I know is 100% with no issues. I have zero buyer’s remorse right now!

The saw comes with the scoring blade (an option on this saw) and larger slider, and a few other bells and whistles over stock. He knocked a little off list price. We didn’t need the scoring blade, but they had this saw in stock with that option.

For sure I will do a video review because there seems to be a lack of reviews on this saw.

[Patrick Kane]

It’s all in the outrigger and crosscut fence. Also, I will give a slight edge to the xroll table over the original Martin cast iron table. The biggest difference is the older t75 crosscut fence is an absolute POS. I had an early to mid model 75 and the fence was plywood with a paper thin aluminum extrusion mounted to it. The flag stops sucked too. I definitely remember seeing a t75 with the t71-t72 outrigger and crosscut fence. That combination would completely change my mind, I’m sure, but the original outrigger system was astonishingly bad, in my opinion. I am going back two years, but the design for mine was two steel tubes connected by a fragile wishbone of aluminum, and then I think you flexed the aluminum piece into flat by applying tension via a series of hand screws against the steel tubes. For as brilliant as the base saw design was for its time, and it was, I can’t believe the same engineers designed the crosscut fence and outrigger system. Think about how clever the central wheel is to bevel and change blade height. Or the fact that the table carriage can move forward and backwards as well as away from the blade, All the while maintaining parallel! Then you get into the thoughtfulness of the rip fence dipping out of the way of the table, the convenient oil lines, the easy blade speed belt changes, the built in arbor lock for changing the blade easily with one wrench. The machine drips in intentional thought and the crosscut fence is plywood.

I would buy another t17 in a heartbeat to use as a rip saw/dado saw. They look awesome. Weigh a ton. The fence is great, and if you get one of the early to middle ones, you get some old arn charm with an engraved brass scale.

[Dave Roock]

Check into : https://www.ironwoodmachinery.com/collections/sliding-table-saws/products/ironwood-sl100-3200-sliding-table-saw-singe-phase

[Kevin Jenness]

It’s all in the outrigger and crosscut fence. Also, I will give a slight edge to the xroll table over the original Martin cast iron table. The biggest difference is the older t75 crosscut fence is an absolute POS. I had an early to mid model 75 and the fence was plywood with a paper thin aluminum extrusion mounted to it. The flag stops sucked too. I definitely remember seeing a t75 with the t71-t72 outrigger and crosscut fence. That combination would completely change my mind, I’m sure, but the original outrigger system was astonishingly bad, in my opinion. I am going back two years, but the design for mine was two steel tubes connected by a fragile wishbone of aluminum, and then I think you flexed the aluminum piece into flat by applying tension via a series of hand screws against the steel tubes. For as brilliant as the base saw design was for its time, and it was, I can’t believe the same engineers designed the crosscut fence and outrigger system. Think about how clever the central wheel is to bevel and change blade height. Or the fact that the table carriage can move forward and backwards as well as away from the blade, All the while maintaining parallel! Then you get into the thoughtfulness of the rip fence dipping out of the way of the table, the convenient oil lines, the easy blade speed belt changes, the built in arbor lock for changing the blade easily with one wrench. The machine drips in intentional thought and the crosscut fence is plywood.

I would buy another t17 in a heartbeat to use as a rip saw/dado saw. They look awesome. Weigh a ton. The fence is great, and if you get one of the early to middle ones, you get some old arn charm with an engraved brass scale.

I see your point about the T75 crosscut arrangement. I have seen pics of the outrigger with two steel rods. My friend's saw had a different table which pivoted for angled cuts and the later two-point fence which I like. Martin seemed to change out details like that often over the years. The basic carriage design though seems to have stayed the same since they discontinued the cast iron saws. The more recent manual rip fence setting from the operator's side is a huge labor saver and I'm surprised other mfr's haven't copied it.

[Joe Calhoon]

My old T75 had the fence with the wood piece under. It was fine and did not mind the flip stop either. Way better than the Felder fence I bought for the T17. The stop never sets square half the time. My T75 had the miter crosscut table also. It had positive repeatable stops for the major angles.
With the old machines you can update a lot of the newer safety features like overhead guards and motor brakes.

[Jim Becker]

I don't think you'll regret having the scoring blade...even if you very rarely have the need, when there's a cut with something that has delicate veneer or something is prone to tearout, etc., I can be just the ticket. I rarely use mine, but like having it there for "just in case".

[Malcolm Schweizer]

UPDATE!!!! In the ninth hour, we went with three phase!!! Bigger saw, longer slider, over-arm dust collection, and a micro-adjuster on the fence. We discovered that there was an old 3-phase line in the ceiling, and the electrician said all looked good to hook that up and save a ton of money on the 3-phase!!! Woo hoo.

So it is official- deposit made. Felder K540s

[Jim Becker]

Congratulations! That will be a very nice and beastly addition to your new shop!

[Aaron Inami]

Wow, that was a very lucky find! And it enabled you to go from a 4HP single-phase motor to the 7.5HP 3-phase that is stock on the K540S! The boost in HP will allow you to run larger blades and prevent the motor from bogging down on heavy/thick material! Excellent result!!

[Jacques Gagnon]

…amazing how the planets get into alignment in the eleventh hour! Your efforts yielded success. Bravo!

[Kevin Jenness]

That's a good outcome, congratulations. I know you'll be glad to have a slider in the shop again.