Trouble cutting a straight (plumb) line

[Ray Bahr]

Been practicing my handsaw use for some dovetail work, and I can't for the life of me get a plumb straight cut. I am using a Japanese pull saw, watched a ton of videos, but my saw always veers to the right of the line for the rear of the work. Been changing the height of the work, my body placement, and my grip, and the rear cut trends to the right of the line - the front is OK.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Ray

[Jim Koepke]

I like the Japanese pull saws but they tend to have the same problem in my work.

One thing I did learn is to use both hands and pull toward my center.

I finally gave up trying to cut dovetails with them and use western saws for joinery.

They still get used for some light cutting.

jtk

[Ray Bahr]

Thanks Jim,

I had the most success with a 2 handed grip. I would still like to understand why this is happening, and if there are things I can do differently.

RAY

[Rafael Herrera]

Have you tried correcting the issue by adjusting the setting of the teeth? For example, stoning the right side of the saw. That's what I would do with a western saw.

[Ray Bahr]

Have you tried correcting the issue by adjusting the setting of the teeth? For example, stoning the right side of the saw. That's what I would do with a western saw.

Thanks, but this saw has no set

Ray.

[Derek Cohen]

Ray, these saws have a thin blade and, especially if there is minimal set, will be vulnerable to following the grain. It is important to take light strokes and not force the cut.

The second strategy is to always cut to two intersecting lines at the same time - this may be the vertical down and the top across. That will help in ensuring the cut is straight.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luke Dupont]

All saws have some amount of set. It may just be really fine.

I find that I can get very accurate cuts with a Ryoba. I probably have more confidence with Japanese saws than western saws at this point. The key is to use the length of the handle. Hold it with one hand near the very end, not the "neck" and a gentle grip. The more tense you are, or the more you try to force the cut, the more you will veer off course. I almost never use two hands -- one cannot get really accurate cuts that way, I believe.

If the set is messed up, even slightly -- the teeth may have rubbed against something hard on one side only -- then it will veer off to one side.

It's especially hard to fix the set on Ryoba because the teeth on both sides must match, else you get binding in deep cuts.

[Tony Shea]

I agree that Japanese saws can be a little difficult to cut straight lines. I don't think you should be using a Japanese saw that has NO set for joinery purposes. If the saw has NO set it sounds like its a flush cut saw and not a general purpose saw. I do prefer to use western style saws for most joinery but do break out my Japanese saws for finer work.

For cutting dovetails or any joinery where your ripping with a Japanese saw I highly recommend putting the work piece flat on the bench and working on your knees. Basically you are cutting such that you're looking at the back side of the work piece and the saw is getting close to vertical (obviously not perfectly vertical until the end of the cut). This position forces the saw to follow the inside of the line, where you're not looking, with the stiffer part of the saw. As Derek mentioned the thin blade of the saw will want to follow the grain of the wood but cutting in this position will give you a much better chance at guiding the saw. I honestly think this is the way Japanese saws are designed to be used. Us westerners have started using the technique that is more designed around western style saws where the work piece is placed in a vice. When cutting on the pull stroke, placing the work piece in the vice is not conducive to cutting accurately. If you watch some videos of true Japanese hand tool woodworking you will notice them ripping with the work piece flat or on the floor leaned up on a short saw horse.

[James Pallas]

Seeing this thread brought it all back to me. Same issue for me years ago. Japanese saws are surprisingly sensitive. One small pressure one way or the other and off you go. I was trying to correct pulling towards myself chasing the line on the front. Ever so slightly warping the blade and off to the right the rear would go. The first few strokes at the start tell the tale. If you start correcting in the cut ??. Dereks following two lines definitely helps. A delicate touch at the start for sure and no forcing. I did figure it out and still use Japanese saws sometimes. Found I prefer western saws for most work.
Jim

[Ray Bahr]

Hi Derek & everyone else.

I seem to not have any problem following 2 lines, it is following 3 lines where things go sideways - literally!

As I cut, I seem to be able to follow the top and front line, but when done, it is the rear cut that wanders. I do have a problem with my predominant wrist - multiple surgeries and it is not even close to being good as new. I am pretty sure that contributes. Been cutting up my scrap pile practicing...

I will try using the full length of the handle, although I have that as well as choking up on it as well...

Thanks

Ray

[Luke Dupont]

Dereks following two lines definitely helps.
Jim

I missed this point.
If you're working with pencil or ink lines, splitting two lines is always way, way easier -- especially when ripping.
Even to this day I can't cut cleanly right next to a pencil line, but I can cut very straight between two pencil lines.
Of course, a knife wall and chiseled step is perhaps the easiest of all when cross cutting.

[Ben Ellenberger]

How thick is the stock you are cutting, and are you using one of the very fine-tooth back saws? I like Japanese saws for stuff that is less than 1/2” thick, but I struggle with them in thicker stock. I much prefer western saws for that.

I’ll echo what other people have said, any tiny bit of force or trying to direct a Japanese saw makes it wander. It takes a very light touch to get them to cut straight (for me at least).

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek & everyone else.

I seem to not have any problem following 2 lines, it is following 3 lines where things go sideways - literally!

As I cut, I seem to be able to follow the top and front line, but when done, it is the rear cut that wanders. I do have a problem with my predominant wrist - multiple surgeries and it is not even close to being good as new. I am pretty sure that contributes. Been cutting up my scrap pile practicing...

I will try using the full length of the handle, although I have that as well as choking up on it as well...

Thanks

Ray

Hi Ray

It appears that you need to saw the top and front side of the board, the turn it around and repeat.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

Thin blade, easy to twist in the cut. Quit cutting to a line out of sight for anything other than very short distances. Cut down the front, flip it, then cut down the back. Alternatively, use a Western saw, but not cutting to a line that's out of sight is still your best course of action regardless of the style saw you use.

[steven c newman]

Old timers taught a way...you held a square alongside the saw...to keep the saw cut vertical ( plumb) After a while and a bit of practice, you'd get to the point of no longer needing the square sitting there.

Of course, this was with using the "old fashioned" Western style saws....

[Edward Weber]

Been practicing my handsaw use for some dovetail work, and I can't for the life of me get a plumb straight cut. I am using a Japanese pull saw, watched a ton of videos, but my saw always veers to the right of the line for the rear of the work. Been changing the height of the work, my body placement, and my grip, and the rear cut trends to the right of the line - the front is OK.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Ray

I would just ask, are you better at it than you were last week? or last month?
If so, it might simply be a matter of more practice. You can certainly experiment with hand grip and all the other things mentioned above but what ever you do, it has to be comfortable to you or you'll never get there.
Japanese saws are great but just like western saws, once you get a "feel" for them, you're well on your way.
Keep at it, it doesn't come to everyone in the same timeframe.

[Tom M King]

I never think about how I’m holding any saw. That’s why I could never teach because I don’t think about that stuff.

I watch the cut line right at the teeth. If too many fuzzies are left by part of the last stroke, those are cleaned off during the backstroke in preparation for the next stroke.

Pull saws are not as easily controlled for that, to me, as Western saws.

[Thomas Wilson]

I have this problem. I believe that I have a tendency to twist the saw on the recovery stroke (in this case push stroke). I focus on the lines on pulling (cutting) stroke but then do not follow the exact same stroke on recovery widening the kerf ever so slightly. On the next pull stroke, I control the cut to follow the line on the front but the blade bends at the back of the cut to follow the widened kerf. I concentrate on not twisting on pull or push but it is very hard to feel the twist. Sometimes I get it right. Most times I get the David Barron saw guide out which helps immensely. I have a 90 degree guide for cross cuts as well as 1:6 guide for dovetails.

[Ray Bahr]

I can definitely follow the line(s) I am watching, tried position a mirror to watch the line in the back (cutting pins), but my setup was a bit off. I was worried about the interaction between the grain and the saw, but was uncertain what to do about it.

I have got a bit better with the practice, but This is not new to me :), just been a while - been working in metal for a bit now, and want to start putting together a proper bench.

Thanks

Ray

[Luke Dupont]

Old timers taught a way...you held a square alongside the saw...to keep the saw cut vertical ( plumb) After a while and a bit of practice, you'd get to the point of no longer needing the square sitting there.

Of course, this was with using the "old fashioned" Western style saws....

I use this method with both Japanese and western saws. It really works / helps start the cut right.

Just be careful if you're using a metal square. You don't want to accidentally let the teeth rub against the metal square. I tend to use a wooden square that I made for this.

[Ray Bahr]

I use this method with both Japanese and western saws. It really works / helps start the cut right.

Just be careful if you're using a metal square. You don't want to accidentally let the teeth rub against the metal square. I tend to use a wooden square that I made for this.

This would be a good idea, but the lines are slanted - pins on a dove tail...

Ray

[Derek Cohen]

I don't agree at all about using a square to align the saw plate.

First of all, you rely here on judging whether you are square to the square's blade. And what if the square is not plumb?

Second, and most relevantly, accurate sawing is simply - and I mean SIMPLY - about sawing to a line. It is the case in all joinery. Learn to saw to a line and you can cut ANY joinery marked out.

Sawing to three lines will never work. As both Charles and I wrote earlier, saw to two lines and then turn the board and saw to another two lines.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

The OP said the cut always goes to the right. Can probably rule out grain. Must be technique. Some how warping the plate. Maybe placing a board flat on the bench facing the end and pulling the saw down. Then flip the board and cut to the line on the other side. You would likely do that with a long board. I’ve seen lots of techniques for this work equally between sawing to the line and sawing off the line and cleaning up with a chisel. The answer lies in not warping the plate or sawing off the line and cleaning up after.
Jim

[steven c newman]

There has been photos of Schoolboys learning in the "Manual Arts" class....sawing a board (cross cut) with a Large square propped up against the side of the saw's plate...He is sawing with one hand, and steadying with the other hand.

Most Carpenters with have their left thumb doing the same. And after you get about half way across the board in the cut...lower the hand, and allow most of the kerf to guide the saw...while you keep a grip on the off-cut...to support it.

[David Carroll]

Usually when my cuts drift, and it's not due to wild grain or poor saw set, it is because I am gripping the saw too tightly and am not lined up with the work properly. I find a low-ish bench helps because I can be more "on top" of the work, and I can see the top line and the front line. Or I can see the top and back line if I look over the work. When I was starting out I always drew guide lines front top and back of dovetails and tenons. Now after 45 years I don't draw the back line anymore (most of the time). Starting the cut is the most important thing IMO. I sometimes (in softer woods) put a nick down the end grain, along the scribed line and take out a flake in the corner so the saw has a spot to sit accurately when I slowly start the cut.

I start out really slowly and work the cut so I am cutting the top and back line first at a ~45-degree angle to the work. With Japanese saws being so thin and with yours having so little set, if you start off wrong, its hard to "steer" yourself back on track. If you start to drift off the line there's no room in the kerf to move the saw plate this way or that to correct the cut. A saw with more kerf allows more wiggle room to change course (a little). So that's why it's important to start out in the right place with your saw.

Once you do get started right, relax your grip and forearm, and concentrate on pulling the saw straight along the kerf you have already established. You should try this with two fingers, just pinching the saw and pulling it straight. Now focus on the front line as you continue to cut. The back should take care of itself, riding in the kerf you have already established at the back. If you don't fight the saw, it should follow the line.

But if you drift away from the line, no problem, just finish the cut and pare back to the line. If you drift into the line of course you need to stop and I generally turn the work around and repeat going very slowly. It seems overly complicated but once you get the hang of it, it becomes muscle-memory and you will automatically position yourself correctly without really even being aware that you are doing it.

I'm not a big fan of making endless practice cuts, but it may help at first to get a feel for how the saw cuts. Some drift naturally if they are set poorly and stoning (lightly) on the side the saw is drifting toward will help. Once the saw is tracking sweetly then just make boxes or drawers and get your practice making things. After a dozen or so you will get the hang of it.

Personally, I don't like Japanese pattern saws for dovetailing, I prefer Gent's saws for fine dovetails in thin stock and regular pistol gripped saws for larger stuff (1/2-inch thick and thicker).

Good luck, and don't get discouraged!

DC

[Phil Gaudio]

My experience suggests there is more of a tendency for this to happen with thin plate saws: I suspect you get less/different feedback regarding saw orientation in the cut, as compared to a .020 plate saw. You might also want to use some wax on the saw plate: it is sometimes surprising the ills this can remedy. I should add that I have exactly zero experience with Japanese saws.

[Ray Bahr]

Thanks folks,

Will try things mentioned.

Ray

[Derek Cohen]

The OP said the cut always goes to the right. Can probably rule out grain. Must be technique. Some how warping the plate. Maybe placing a board flat on the bench facing the end and pulling the saw down. Then flip the board and cut to the line on the other side. You would likely do that with a long board. I’ve seen lots of techniques for this work equally between sawing to the line and sawing off the line and cleaning up with a chisel. The answer lies in not warping the plate or sawing off the line and cleaning up after.
Jim

Jim, the OP said that the cut skewed on the reverse side of the board, and not the front. He has been attempting to saw straight down three sides. That is why the thin blade and the grain is the factor.

An analogy is using a cutting gauge to score a line. If you go deep immediately, the grain will take it. You need, instead, to take light strokes. Using a Japanese saw, you use light strokes and cut the minimum until you are assured that you are cutting to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Hmm..
497892
and...
497893
Done just this morning....
497894
Was trying these two out...

[James Pallas]

Jim, the OP said that the cut skewed on the reverse side of the board, and not the front. He has been attempting to saw straight down three sides. That is why the thin blade and the grain is the factor.

An analogy is using a cutting gauge to score a line. If you go deep immediately, the grain will take it. You need, instead, to take light strokes. Using a Japanese saw, you use light strokes and cut the minimum until you are assured that you are cutting to the line.

Regards from Perth

Derek

If I read correctly the OP said the rear always skews to the right. That would mean to me that every time he cut the grain was chasing to the right on the rear of every board otherwise it would chase left sometimes. My guess is that the OP is pulling the handle slightly towards his body with each back stoke warping the far side of the blade to the right. It does not take much. I experienced the same effect myself. I fixed it by changing my stance a bit and checking my arm and hand alignment with the saw. It is different than with a western saw maybe closer to a gents saw. I still have to think about it when using different saws. I know you have greater experience than I. I just remember the difficulty I had with a very similar lesson learned.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Steven, you’re the man.


If I read correctly the OP said the rear always skews to the right. That would mean to me that every time he cut the grain was chasing to the right on the rear of every board otherwise it would chase left sometimes.

Jim, if the saw is cutting a straight, plumb kerb on the facing side, then all is well with the OP’s stance. Since it is only the rear side of the board where the kerf is skewed, this must be due to the grain and the thin blade. Therefore the solution is to saw to one side at a time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Shea]

I'm still surprised that no one has mentioned the method I posted earlier. Most Japanese hand tool users will rip in the position I posted a pic of below. A Japanese rip saw will naturally cut much nicer when cutting fibers with the grain direction, similar to a western style rip saw when you tilt the handle towards the floor when the work piece is held vertical in the vise. I agree with Derek that the best method is to cut on the side your watching and flip the work piece over to complete the cut. But after getting the hang of it you shouldn't need to keep flipping, especially if you employ the technique in the pictures.
https://www.woodcraft.com/media/W1siZiIsIjIwMTkvMDIvMjEvMTEvNDUvNDQvODAwL0phcGFuZX NlU2F3czguanBnIl0sWyJwIiwib3B0aW0iXV0/JapaneseSaws8.jpg?sha=7abc8b310f391a93

[Charles Guest]

Good Lord, what an uncomfortable looking position. My knees wouldn't make it through three cuts. Praise Be to Western Woodworking.

[mike stenson]

If you did it regularly, it'd be comfortable. Just like any other movement.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Others have probably mentioned it but you really cannot put any downforce on these saws or the backside of the cut will get squirrely even if the front looks good. The teeth have an aggressive rake so they don't really need any downforce. Just pull straight back with a light touch. You can try holding the handle in a loose way such that you can't really apply downforce. When you want to speed things up, think of moving the saw fast but not hard, if that makes sense.

[Rafael Herrera]

I'm still surprised that no one has mentioned the method I posted earlier. Most Japanese hand tool users will rip in the position I posted a pic of below. A Japanese rip saw will naturally cut much nicer when cutting fibers with the grain direction, similar to a western style rip saw when you tilt the handle towards the floor when the work piece is held vertical in the vise. I agree with Derek that the best method is to cut on the side your watching and flip the work piece over to complete the cut. But after getting the hang of it you shouldn't need to keep flipping, especially if you employ the technique in the pictures.


Bending over like the guy in the picture would certainly hurt my back. Kneeling in front of the bench just to be able to use the saw seems contrived to me. In many of the videos I've seen of japanese woodworkers using their saws, they've been sitting down and even holding their pieces with their feet, or like in the instance of the video above, standing over the piece.

https://youtu.be/P50VtDfQa1g?t=346

Using these saws standing up in front of a western workbench may work in some cases, but in others it just seems awkward, why bother?

[Jack Dover]

Every time someone mentions the right way of using Japanese saws - the post just gets ignored and a discussion moves on. Witness it yourself, lol.

[Jim Koepke]

Every time someone mentions the right way of using Japanese saws - the post just gets ignored and a discussion moves on. Witness it yourself, lol.

The eastern (including Japanese) traditions have been filled with ritual and spiritualism. Their tools were developed in this environment. The eastern tradition often has been to be seated for much of what western tradition has done standing.

The western traditions are much different than the eastern traditions.

Trying to work with eastern tools while using traditionally western methods will produce some problems in the blending.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

To add to Jim's points.
Most people know that Japanese saws and planes are pulled not pushed. This design is in part inspired by the philosophy that when working wood, giving it a second life as something new, there is an aspect of animism. Working with the wood and not against it, and having respect for the tree as well as what is being made.
Pulling the saw or plane towards ones body, rather that pushing it away, represents the drawing in of the spirit of the wood.

The technique in the photos posted may work for some but personally it's quite strange and awkward looking to me.

[Mel Fulks]

The Eastern tradition was to make the tools hard to use , so that the number of guys who could use the danged stuff
would be reduced , thereby protecting the jobs. Western tradition is easy to use stuff, and unions.

[Mark Rainey]

Good Lord, what an uncomfortable looking position. My knees wouldn't make it through three cuts. Praise Be to Western Woodworking.

Agreed Charles. And I have experimented with several Japanese saws for crosscutting hardwood. Even though razor sharp, the pull saws just don't crosscut 12 inch hardwood boards as easily as a good Western push saw.

[Jack Dover]

The eastern (including Japanese) traditions have been filled with ritual and spiritualism.

As one of my (Japanese) instructors liked to say: "of all traditional Japanese jutsus the most elaborate is the jutsu of parting gaijins with their money". Indeed there are rituals and spirituality, it's just a typical Westerner that learns from YT "suggested" section and Rockler catalogs doesn't get even close to any of the rituals. Any Japanese craft itself is pragmatic to the core, also every Japanese craft is ruthless in its attitude, and that's two main drivers behind their tools evolution.


Their tools were developed in this environment. The eastern tradition often has been to be seated for much of what western tradition has done standing.

Their tools were developed in a rapidly changing environment under quite a bit of Western influence, that's just a historic fact: most of the "traditional" (for some definition of "traditional") tools are from late 19th-early 20th century. Also, it's kinda too big of a jump from "spirituality" to the "sitting\standing", isn't it? How would you explain their sawyers who just can't work sitting, yet still their maebikis are pull? By the way, a whip saw or a pit saw - is it push or pull?


The western traditions are much different than the eastern traditions.

Yes and no. They're governed by different aesthetics and different societal norms, but they're the same in the sense that both traditions make it their main priority to arrive at a pre-defined result in the manner most efficient. You'll struggle a lot trying to make shoji or a bento with only Western tools, you'll also struggle a lot trying to build a heavy timbered house in dried white oak with Japanese tools only.

But I don't think this is relevant in the context of using a ryoba. It's a specific tool which assumes specific ways of usage, and pretty much like nobody tries to slice a steak with a spoon, nobody should be using a ryoba like a Western dovetail saw. Manuals are written for a purpose, right? And if a ryoba doesn't work for somebody's methods, why suffer, for internet points or what? We are not all daikus just because we are using Japanese tools and Japanese joinery. So get what works for yourself and be done with it.

[Jack Dover]

This design is in part inspired by the philosophy that when working wood, giving it a second life as something new, there is an aspect of animism.

Sure you have some credible sources to support this claim, haven't you?

[Eric Rathhaus]

I noticed in one of your posts you mentioned you had been spending time detail working recently. My question is whether you're using a metal working frame of reference for what is plumb. I find many times I fret to overcome a problem that only exists because my mid-century mind uses a degree of accuracy suitable for CMC age.

[Edward Weber]

Sure you have some credible sources to support this claim, haven't you?

it is not a "claim", it is simply part of a broader philosophy of Control over force.

Pulling a saw in towards ones body provides more control with less effort. Add to that the spirituality of the act of drawing the wood towards you and not pushing it away, there is symbolism there.
This is just one aspect of how the tools came to be known today
If you look closely, most all Japanese tools and techniques have this same element of drawing or pulling inward, providing a greater sense of control and connection to the wood.

Basically any Japanese tool reference that covers not just the function but the philosophy, culture and spirituality behind it.
Here is just one example.
https://downloads.ctfassets.net/zwqohdz2e0fx/2ZqZCOKzcKT0V17Vbpz9nG/963f0a525b6f61ce1d42ad109e400ddd/WPBFCatalog4_5small.pdf


"Also unique to Japanese tools is the manner of how they are used. A number of Japanese
carpentry tools are pulled, rather than pushed, in order to cut or shape wood, unlike in
woodworking traditions in other locations such as China, Europe, and the United States.
The difference is especially notable in the case of saws and planes. Japanese carpentry has
evolved to prioritize control over force."

[Jim Koepke]

There is some here > https://japanwoodcraftassociation.com/traditions/philosophy/

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

To add to Jim's points.
Most people know that Japanese saws and planes are pulled not pushed. This design is in part inspired by the philosophy that when working wood, giving it a second life as something new, there is an aspect of animism. Working with the wood and not against it, and having respect for the tree as well as what is being made.
Pulling the saw or plane towards ones body, rather that pushing it away, represents the drawing in of the spirit of the wood.

The technique in the photos posted may work for some but personally it's quite strange and awkward looking to me.

I think the whole "pulling versus pushing" being for some spiritual reason is hokey.

Spend a day in a traditional Japanese house and all of your questions will soon be answered. There's no place you could put a large, heavy work-bench, which would be expensive anyway -- and people are in the habit of sitting on the floor. I don't know why the workbench would be the only thing that you'd stand up to use/work at.

If you're sitting down, you're working with a pretty small work surface, which can't be all that heavy. How do you keep it from moving away from you as you plane?

That's right. Butt the bench up against you and pull towards yourself. YOU are the bench/planing stop.

Same with sawing and stuff.

If you need a clamp, that's what your feet and butt are for.

Besides saving a lot of money (common people and craftsmen were generally not wealthy at all), this all does have one additional huge advantage: you can literally work just about anywhere without the need of a big, supremely heavy, fancy bench.

Also, your eyes are much closer to your work, so it's easy to see what you're doing.

I've always found working this way to be extremely comfortable and natural, and have far more back pain bending over a bench that is a little too low (or high -- never quite the right height it seems) trying to see what I'm doing.

[Rafael Herrera]

Both references above are rather Western-oriented marketing literature of Japanese craftmanship. In that context, any craft from any part of the world can be described in a profound philosophical fashion. That may or may not be the case for Japanese woodworking, there may be a "spiritual" element embraced by their Japanese practicioners, I don't really know.

Explaning the reason for having pull saws as the norm in their woodworking to some eastern mystical pullling inward motion sounds like BS to me. It is more likely that the saw is the way it is for more mundane reasons, like, the user is sitting down and pulling is rather more natural than pushing in that position.

It wouldn't be difficult to imagine some exalted spiritual condition that would help craftsmen create their masterpieces. Take for example the renaissance painter Caravaggio, that guy was a genius, but also he wasn't very nice and was no saint.

[Edward Weber]

I think the whole "pulling versus pushing" being for some spiritual reason is hokey.


Well that's one mans opinion, I personally find is offensive to criticize what others believe.
The Japanese to this day still preform a Jichinsai ceremony before putting up a building, I guess that's hokey too.

Did it ever occur to you that the tools, the materials available, the culture, and the philosophy, evolved in conjunction with one another over the centuries?

https://www.seattlejapanesegarden.org/blog/2017/6/14/the-magic-of-trees-architecture-and-woodworking-in-japan

“Japanese woodworkers traditionally worked on the floor, and pulling tools were preferred as it allowed the maker to generate more power from a seated position… The pull-stroke is one of the key differences between Western and Japanese woodworking. It is all-encompassing in its ramifications – in the anatomy of the tools, in how the tools are used and experienced, in what kind and size of wood can be processed, and in what information is fed back to the maker during use… the pull-stroke allows for more control, offers increased accuracy, requires less effort, and provides more nuanced feedback.”

[steven c newman]

Ok...did you notice WHERE Mr. Dupont resides? Compared to where YOU live...hmmm, must have missed that little bit of info?

[Jim Koepke]

Reading many of the above posts led me to ponder on the OP's original question.

One thing came to mind that hasn't been tested yet. It would be to imagine the back line (the one that can not be seen) and put the emphasis when sawing on cutting it instead of the front.

The theory being this puts the tension at the back of the cut (furthest away from the sawyer) instead of the tension being on the closer edge leaving the rest of the saw plate waving around.

Just a thought that came to me while not being able to fall asleep this morning.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

All the Japanese tool stuff is the rabbit hole to end all rabbit holes. You can respect other traditions (in woodworking, food, and lots of things) without attempting to practice/adopt them. You don't have to be a sushi master, to simply eat sushi. By all means respect the skill, don't go out and spend $3,000 on Japanese knives trying to replicate it. It takes more than just owning the same tools. Regardless of the endeavor, expert craftsmen always make it look easy.

Your first clue it's a dead end is right here in this thread -- can't cut a straight line a very short distance, and apparently after well more than half-hearted attempts to do so. My 13 year old granddaughter can easily cut a straight line with a Western tenon saw and short panel saws and it didn't take very much practice -- just some advice on posture and to not put a white knuckle grip on the saw. That was pretty much it. She didn't have her psyche and sense of self-worth invested in it. She just picked up the tools and pretty much let them do the work, like you're supposed to.

All that said, the Japanese saw you're using could be total junk with a bad set job on the teeth. Good luck fixing that. Just because the saw cost $800 or some silly amount of money and was supposedly made by some master doesn't mean squat as you could easily have been completely defrauded about the tool. I don't know if this is the case or not. I hope not, but if it is you wouldn't be the first fool to fall for all the hype, and it's mostly hype and ad copy.

It does sound like the saw is twisting in the cut. If I were you, I'd simply try a western saw and see if you're any more successful. If you are, that should tell you something. If you fail to get the message, then the rabbit hole awaits. You've apparently wasted a lot of time trying to saw a consistent and serviceable line around 3/4" to 1" long as for dovetailing. How much more time are you really willing to waste? If you'd take a decent 10" Western tenon saw, even one with a rather thick-ish blade and with crosscut teeth, I'd be willing to bet you'd be able to saw the dead straight line you're looking for. Within reason, and just starting out, kerf width doesn't matter nor does crosscut vs. rip teeth for such short cuts. Use the bigger saw, get good with it, then you can move to an 8" Western dovetailer, a little more upscale saw, with a thinner plate.

[mike stenson]

Spend a day in a traditional Japanese house and all of your questions will soon be answered. There's no place you could put a large, heavy work-bench, which would be expensive anyway -- and people are in the habit of sitting on the floor. I don't know why the workbench would be the only thing that you'd stand up to use/work at.


Having been fortunate enough to have spent more than a few days in a traditional house, sitting around a blanket table. I agree. There are cultural differences, even amongst Japanese-Americans, and there may be some spirituality tied in (there are enough religions/philosophies in Japan that I've lost track of how many there are), but I also believe that the nature of life in general had more to do with it.

Ok, now I miss Japan.

[Jack Dover]

it is not a "claim", it is simply part of a broader philosophy of Control over force. Pulling a saw in towards ones body provides more control with less effort. Add to that the spirituality of the act of drawing the wood towards you and not pushing it away, there is symbolism there.

Is this your personal philosophy then? It's okay to find symbolism in even the most mundane things and I'd respect that, it's just the way you put implies it's a philosophy in a broad sense, as it's understood by the general public. And that probably requires some support from sources other than a personal opinion. Or even several opinions. Because being quite involved with many things Japanese I never witnessed this spirituality in "the wild", only as a part of a formal ritual where someone parts with money in the end. In fact, I have witnessed something almost opposite. Sure there's symbolism in the product of the craft, great many books were written about it, Shinto influence on aesthetics and such. But not in the craft itself. So if you have something like this (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Carpentry_and_Building_in_Late_Imperial/KH2XJVKxgIMC?hl=en&gbpv=1) or this (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Folklore_Studies_of_Traditional_Chinese/M_JQEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=chinese+carpentry+magic+book&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover) but on Japanese joinery or furniture making - I'd be happy to change my opinion.


If you look closely, most all Japanese tools and techniques have this same element of drawing or pulling inward, providing a greater sense of control and connection to the wood.

Well, given that OP has issues controlling a pull saw it seems contradictory to this statement, doesn't it? Also don't you think we need some better categories to draw from to make it a philosophical system than just a direction of one particular movement? 'Cos there were very traditional Western saws that were/are pulled too: coping saws is a great example, but there were pull table saws (the other kind), then Turkish saws and keyhole saws (the first and the last ones were found in both push and pull configurations). Does using these tools makes a craftsman more connected to wood than, say, while using a back saw? Also, how exactly pulling makes you better connected to the wood? Does this make a Japanese chisel, which is a push tool, less connected to wood? And in which sense you're connected to the wood after all? When exactly are you connected to the wood, when you're toiling for 14 hours a day in a badly lit corner of a frigid workshop where you occasionally beaten just for the a wrong look or after? Is this wood connection the reason why Japanese youth abandons traditional crafts and prefers other occupations, up to leaving Japan? So many questions, and I'm not even halfway through the list.



https://downloads.ctfassets.net/zwqohdz2e0fx/2ZqZCOKzcKT0V17Vbpz9nG/963f0a525b6f61ce1d42ad109e400ddd/WPBFCatalog4_5small.pdf


"Also unique to Japanese tools is the manner of how they are used. A number of Japanese
carpentry tools are pulled, rather than pushed, in order to cut or shape wood, unlike in
woodworking traditions in other locations such as China, Europe, and the United States.
The difference is especially notable in the case of saws and planes. Japanese carpentry has
evolved to prioritize control over force."

I mean, it feels like you're promoting some marketing blurb directed at Westerners from, well, blurb to a whole philosophy. Note that down the text the explanation for pulling is way different:


Japanese saws function differently than saws in China, Europe, and the United States: theorientation of their teeth places the sharp side towards the handle, rather than away fromit. This configuration results in saws that cut while the carpenter pulls the saw, as opposedto pushing the saw, which is a more efficient action that reduces stress on the steel blades,thereby allowing them to be thinner.

No "spirituality" in sight. The last sentence is not substantiated at all and implies that force somehow opposes control, however, they're just different dimensions of the subject, therefore it's possible to have small force with small control or great force with great control - examples are all around us. Also why is that all people mentioned in this handout are architects, museum directors, ph.d's and other white collar type people? Of course it's very easy to be spiritual and sing praises to The Working Man from the comfort of a temperature controlled office with a fridge and a minibar (especially the minibar!). But one will be hard pressed to find any text on spirituality of craft written by an average residential carpenter (maybe a blog at best), and why is that? They're not writers, they're not even good speakers. Anyone who ever spend a day on a construction site would tell you that they're all the same all across the world, and there's very little place there for spirituality or even for self reflection. Because it's labor. And labor is hard. And hard labor most often just kills that part of personality responsible for spirituality whatever the spirituality might be. It might be a shock for some, but Japanese laborers, even skilled ones, aren't very different from, say, a German laborer: they cuss and swear, they get drunk on Fridays, they chain smoke and yell at their spouses and children. Not very spiritual, isn't it? Also, before you say this is all thing of the past: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/11/21/the-beautiful-brutal-world-of-bonsai There's more than just this example, go check what Dale Brotherton says about apprenticeship for example, since we're appealing to authority here. Or just talk to a Japanese who went through this system - there's a way to make them talk, but your liver might not be happy.

And before you mention Nakashima: he has build very little furniture himself, he was primarily an architect. Most Nakashima's furniture was build by (surprise!) local American craftsmen under his supervision. And the most wood for his shop was harvested by a gentleman born in Poland, with soulless, gas smelling, loud chainsaws. Were these people anointed with spirituality somehow, because obviously they weren't born into it? Another example is Toshio Odate, who barely made through apprenticeship, then quit it and went to college at his first opportunity and eventually fled to USA, where he found a good audience willing to accept every word non-skeptically. This is not about his crafts skills though, since he continued his education, went into sculpture and learned from great many people from around the world - this is also in his books, no doubts he is great at what he does.

Now, all the above might give one a wrong impression that I have some sort of hatred toward Japanese ways of working wood or the nation in general. I don't, and my perception and attitude towards craft of woodworking changed exactly because exposure to Japanese methods, before that it was just a necessity and was avoided. I'm just against putting something into it that's not really there. Neither we assume that Roubo's era woodworker was a well fed, well dressed person in a wig smiling happily while sawing veneers, nor we assume that a typical 19th century American woodworker looked like Sigmound Freud with a longer beard as some text books pictures might suggest. And if someone sees Japanese ways as "spiritual", but fails to recognize same levels of spirituality in Western methods just because they're more clear to us and aren't surrounded by aura of artificial mysticism - it's clearly a personal bias. Yet we somehow hurry to elevate anything remotely Japanese (not Chinese, not Korean, only Japanese) to the level of of a guiding star, and suddenly words like "spirituality", "mindfulness", "connection" and even "zen-like" (another concept people have a completely wrong understanding of) are being [mis-]used. It's okay to have this as a system personal beliefs though, after all this occupation is what one makes it of it, and if someone finds it therapeutical to build a shrine for a chisel - that's fine, although creepy.

So there's that. Now excuse me while I dig a fox hole to hide from all the replies.

[Jack Dover]

Yup. They don't let some random people write on Internet these days, do they?

[Edward Weber]

I will not and can not explain why people believe what they believe. You seem to just want to argue.

Don't like my answer, that's fine, ask someone who you trust who would be in a position of knowing.

This has strayed far off the topic the OP asked about.

[Jim Koepke]

I will not and can not explain why people believe what they believe. You seem to just want to argue.

Don't like my answer, that's fine, ask someone who you trust who would be in a position of knowing.

This has strayed far off the topic the OP asked about.

I agree, it is impossible for me to prove true what someone related to me years ago.

jtk

[steven c newman]

About time we bury this dead horse..isn't it?

Or..just throw a bucket of ICE COLD Water on things here...

BTW..it USUALLY takes 2 (or more) to make an argument....unless you happen to be in Congress...

[Mel Fulks]

The old Japanese saw makers were getting too many complaints about kinked saws and got tired of warranty fixes. So they the started
putting handle, or ‘tote’on the other end.

[Jim Koepke]

The old Japanese saw makers were getting too many complaints about kinked saws and got tired of warranty fixes. So they the started
putting handle, or ‘tote’on the other end.

And some people still managed to kink them or jam them in a cut. :eek: :D

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

Well that's one mans opinion, I personally find is offensive to criticize what others believe.
The Japanese to this day still preform a Jichinsai ceremony before putting up a building, I guess that's hokey too.

Did it ever occur to you that the tools, the materials available, the culture, and the philosophy, evolved in conjunction with one another over the centuries?

https://www.seattlejapanesegarden.org/blog/2017/6/14/the-magic-of-trees-architecture-and-woodworking-in-japan

“Japanese woodworkers traditionally worked on the floor, and pulling tools were preferred as it allowed the maker to generate more power from a seated position… The pull-stroke is one of the key differences between Western and Japanese woodworking. It is all-encompassing in its ramifications – in the anatomy of the tools, in how the tools are used and experienced, in what kind and size of wood can be processed, and in what information is fed back to the maker during use… the pull-stroke allows for more control, offers increased accuracy, requires less effort, and provides more nuanced feedback.”

I mean that it is likely a hokey interpretation added after the fact, perhaps in Western circles. I've never heard such an explanation given regarding pulling versus pushing by any Japanese person or craftsman here. Of course, it's possible that I just haven't encountered it yet.

The thing, though, is that there are extremely practical and pragmatic reasons that demand tools cut on the pull stroke when working on the floor, and so even if you do dig up some Japanese reference, I still will lean towards thinking that it's an embellishment/interpretation after the fact rather than the origin of the methods. There's just no particularly good way to do it on the push stroke, so I think that necessity is the ultimate mother of invention here.

I'm well aware of Jichinsai, Shinto-ism, and extremely well acquainted with Japanese language and culture. I'm not judging any of those things -- I'm quite accustomed to them and find them fascinating. FYI, my father-in-law is a Shinto priest.

My reason for commenting is that I'm one of probably not so many people here who has worked in this fashion (sitting on the floor as opposed to a bench) with Japanese tools quite extensively. I thought that perspective might offer worthwhile insight, so I offered it up for what it's worth. Take it or leave it as you like.

[Mike Soaper]

Interesting viewpoints,

And here I was wondering if pull saws came about because they could be thinner than a push saw, thereby using less metal of a then rare, relatively expensive material.

[Edward Weber]

Interesting viewpoints,

And here I was wondering if pull saws came about because they could be thinner than a push saw, thereby using less metal of a then rare, relatively expensive material.

This is an integral part of the evolution, as well as keeping the saw in tension when cutting, body mechanics, etc.

I added the more spiritual part, that I thought was a common understanding, because the belief system is intertwined into may things, including wood and those who work it.

I did not intend to have this go off the rails.

[Rafael Herrera]

Interesting viewpoints,

And here I was wondering if pull saws came about because they could be thinner than a push saw, thereby using less metal of a then rare, relatively expensive material.

It'd difficult to assert if these saws were conceived thin from the beginning. It would not take much, after using them, to conclude that thinner plates are not detrimental. The scarcity of metals in Japan would have been an incentive for innovation, though.

However, that's not necessarily a general practice. They were not stingy in the manufacture of Maebiki Ooga saws, for example.

I have what I believe is a hand made large cross cut saw. The tang for the handle is pretty thick, the plate tapers to a thin width. It's waiting for a handle. The teeth are very large, it's probably intended for cutting branches, not something I do often.

498188

I don't see a problem with going off on a tangent once the issues the OP had were dealt with. I much rather learn something than get the usual arrogant dismisal, the name dropping, or the pushing of something to buy.

In the past (and not just eastern societies, but western too) ritual, symbolism, and supersticion were intimately associated to the daily lives of the population. However, do they constitute a big part of a Japanese woodworker practice nowadays? unlikely.

Thank you Jack Dover for the link to the Chinese carpentry book. It's going to the list of books to get.

[Jim Koepke]

This is an integral part of the evolution, as well as keeping the saw in tension when cutting, body mechanics, etc.

I added the more spiritual part, that I thought was a common understanding, because the belief system is intertwined into may things, including wood and those who work it.

I did not intend to have this go off the rails.

My question now is if it might be possible before WW II there was more ritual/spiritualism in the craft of woodworking than there was after the war. Many things changed in people's perceptions after the war.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

AFAIK
These saws were not wafer thin at inception, they went through an evolution in parallel with all the other ciltural, spiritual and economic forces to name a few.
At about the beginning of the Edo period, aroud 1600, Japan emerged from a century or more of war. Just about everything changed after that and much of what we might recognise as a Japanese saw came to be. Before then there were many forms and styles.
https://www.razorsaw.co.jp/support/rekisi.html?:en

As far as today's practices, here is just one example of a tree ceremony, and yes, they use a chainsaw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfVU7Tilg-k

My comment that sparked some controversy was an expression of a Shinto belief of many traditional woodworkers, that the Kami that reside in the wood, must be treated with reverence, and not disrespected.
I can not find a word for word citation of my comment, which is no surprise to me.
Shinto has no official scripture or doctrine, it is a set of beliefs.
If you believe the wood is alive and has a spirit, that's what you believe.

Nakashima, I did not bring up his name, through I think the characterization of him was quite harsh. I say this as someone who was lucky enough to have met him, seen his work and shop as well, on many occasions in the 1980's
Also he wrote a book entitled The soul of a tree, so?

[steven c newman]

And..this helps the OP cut a straight line? :rolleyes:

[Rafael Herrera]

AFAIK
These saws were not wafer thin at inception, they went through an evolution in parallel with all the other ciltural, spiritual and economic forces to name a few.
At about the beginning of the Edo period, aroud 1600, Japan emerged from a century or more of war. Just about everything changed after that and much of what we might recognise as a Japanese saw came to be. Before then there were many forms and styles.
https://www.razorsaw.co.jp/support/rekisi.html?:en


The Japanese trades, architecture, writing systems, etc. were in no small part imported from or influenced by China as early as the Chinese Qin dynasty (approx 200 BCE). The site you quote has a peculiar chronology, only acknowledging the 19th century Western influence.

The so often admired Japanese temple architecture derives from the Chinese pagoda, which in turn derives from the Indian stupa.

It would be interesting to know a better history of the woodworking trade in Japan, it certainly didn't develop in a vacuum.

[Jack Dover]

Before then there were many forms and styles.
https://www.razorsaw.co.jp/support/rekisi.html?:en

I was about to post this link and mention that the saw implied in this thread is relatively modern. It spread during Meiji, as well as many other things that most people think go back several hundred years.

Also, in the Takenaka Carpentry Museum there's an interesting exhibit: evolution of joinery over time. Apparently for most of the time (on the historical scale) joints were chopped, not sawn, they used something that looks like chouna. Sawn joinery appears somewhere close to the end of Edo period, and explodes in quality and complexity around that time, then simplified again with the advent of machines and modern connectors.

I was going to answer another comment, but will just put it here: we might never know why it was invented like this. It could be a combination of multiple factors. One thing we can be sure of though that the main factors were purely technical.

The sitting/pushing can be countered with the statement that it wasn't universal, not all tasks are executed while sitting, just look at the planing beam or how logs are/were sawn. Also it seem like sitting has changed over the course of the history, see ukiyo prints. Also a sitting carpenter position is very different from say a boxmaker sitting position. There's a very old silent film about Japan that shows works of a geta maker, somewhere from around 1890-1900. His working surface an off-cut of a beam roped to a big post, the height is about 2', and he switches from sitting to kneeling. He has to, because there's quite a bit of splitting and hewing, something that seems to be done by a machine nowadays, so contemporary makers utilize different body mechanics. A carpenter sits sideways, or squats in front of the beam, or even crouches over. The stump by the way is mentioned in one of the American woodworking books as a "Japanese traditional workbench", together with a very precise sketch of a ryoba accompanied with about a full page mentioning Japanese methods of work.

A "traveling craftsman" doesn't really explain it either: going out to work at a customer's place exists in pretty much every culture, yet most employ push saws. Smaller\lighter tools - idk, some of their saws use as much steel as a Western counterpart, a push saw would totally fit into a toolbox, a frame saw isn't too much heavier and can be assembled and disassembled pretty quickly.

This leaves us with the "thinner blades" option, but then a frame saw can also have thinner blade because it's under tension. Besides, woodworking came to Japan from China through Korea, and these cultures used frame saws exclusively. Japanese definitely knew about frame saws, that's in your link, they can be seen in famous ukiyo prints, but they seem to be reserved for sawing lumber, not joinery. Or at least I haven't seen prints or scrolls where it's being used for joinery akin how, say, Germans or Chinese use it. So pulling is not the only way to have a thinner blade, also a frame saw doesn't really have a direction, most frame saw people I know push or pull depending on a situation. Mostly push of course, but flipping it at the moment's requirement isn't a big deal.

Btw, while items from steel were expensive, iron and steel wasn't in shortage, at least not the way common opinion seems to imply. Japan was not only importing it in significant quantities (they were trading with China actively), and there were at least two major iron mining regions that covered all the needs of toolmaking industry. The idea that there were not enough steel in Japan seems to come from the times they re-oriented to become a dominant player in the whole Far East in 19-20th century - any country would scramble to find enough resources internally, as it's not about just digging some ore out, it's about not having required technologies after 300 years of isolation. Going from feudalism to the tip of the industrial revolution is never simple or cheap. Again, would they invent heavy maebikis if steel would be at such a premium?


My comment that sparked some controversy was an expression of a Shinto belief of many traditional woodworkers, that the Kami that reside in the wood, must be treated with reverence, and not disrespected.

Reading is an art. Nobody implied there's no spirituality. Of course it's there, as it is in every major culture in the world. I was arguing at where it is to be found. And also about definitions. Can't have a debate without agreeing on meaning of the words, can we?

But maybe you're right, I do have a pet peeve, because I've seen this subject abused on many, many occasions. Like when a total novice coming for an introduction class is basically mesmerized with mysticism, spirituality and mindfulness (bonus points for an Asian looking perpetrator, another point for being senior) and then being sold a Grizzly level chisel for 120$ and sent practicing with it as is, still with protective lacquer and factory ground edge. A failure and frustration is then used to sell another class, and a process repeated until a person just quits. I didn't say anything then, maybe this is some sort of internalized guilt or something, idk, Derek could diagnose it better. But I do notice this pattern too often, check out local Japanese tools users groups, you'll see the pattern. I have other examples, not necessary in woodworking. So let's maybe put a cap on it or just move to another thread.


Nakashima, I did not bring up his name, through I think the characterization of him was quite harsh. I say this as someone who was lucky enough to have met him, seen his work and shop as well, on many occasions in the 1980's
Also he wrote a book entitled The soul of a tree, so?

Nakashima's name came from the pamphlet you have linked to. The pamphlet is kinda funny, obviously written by someone not really exposed to the craft. I could bring quite amusing passages from there, but that's beyond the point.

What's harsh about admitting he was an architect? It's just the fact of his biography. He was also born and raised in USA, he travelled to Japan for a few years after graduating. But he was introduced to the traditional Japanese joinery during times and at the place Americans are ashamed of to these days. Did he tell you about this? This is also the fact of the biography. Not in Japan in other words, but in USA. He built early pieces himself, that's true, however you won't find intricate joinery there (you'll find something amazing on a higher level though). As soon as he could hire people - he did, he still designed the pieces, and was overlooking construction details personally, but eventually he hired a designer for that too. It's a common practice, it's just impossible to be everywhere, remember he had been working on architectural projects all over the world. The fact he hired people doesn't make him a lesser designer or a less important historic figure, we don't think that Greene&Greene weren't as good because they hired craftspeople, don't we? The furniture making part of his estate is probably 10%, rest is architecture projects, which are amazing, but they're "mid-century modern" or even "contemporary modern", there isn't a minka on the properties or even a tea house, but yeah there's elements of Japanese tradition everywhere. As well as other traditions.
He did write a book, yes, that's undeniable. But let's ask this question: was it during times he and his family lived in a tent at an abandoned farm lot and collected rain water, or after his name was known and his wellbeing has improved? I should probably restrain myself from the socratic method, but this is not to imply the book isn't genuine.

[Ray Bahr]

Hi All,

This became interesting - I don't say that in jest. I was very much into Martial arts for a while and studied some Japanese arts. So, I appreciate what was said about intent. That said, I have continued practicing and have had some improvement. I have relaxed my grip on the saw, been carefully sighting on the drawn lines, been aware of body position, etc, and there has been a definite improvement.

Thanks for the various inputs, and I will continue practicing...

Ray

[Edward Weber]

Great to hear

[chuck van dyck]

Haven’t follow this thread too much cause it was easy to predict where it was headed. But I will share the small amount of philosophical thinking I’ve put into it.

I think the pull motion is a bit more full body/grounded. A bit like Tai Chi.
The push motion is a bit more aggressive/light like boxing. Its similar in furniture design. A lot of eastern design tapers up or thick/grounded as the base. Western design tends to taper down or strong upper and light feet. What fits your lifestyle?

Again, I’m just making this up, but its an observation I’ve made. Obviously there are many exceptions to this, so please don’t explain boxing, tai chi, or furniture design to throughly, I get it. Just how I think about it.

I like a healthy mix of east and west tools. Perhaps because I am an Asian American myself. My family moved to Mississippi from Guangdong in ‘39. Grew up eating St Louis cut ribs with fermented black bean sauce and ginger.

That being said, buy a z-saw with a universal blade. Thicker kerf and cuts like a laser.

[Charles Guest]

Haven’t follow this thread too much cause it was easy to predict where it was headed. But I will share the small amount of philosophical thinking I’ve put into it.

I think the pull motion is a bit more full body/grounded. A bit like Tai Chi.
The push motion is a bit more aggressive/light like boxing. Its similar in furniture design. A lot of eastern design tapers up or thick/grounded as the base. Western design tends to taper down or strong upper and light feet. What fits your lifestyle?

Again, I’m just making this up, but its an observation I’ve made. Obviously there are many exceptions to this, so please don’t explain boxing, tai chi, or furniture design to throughly, I get it. Just how I think about it.

I like a healthy mix of east and west tools. Perhaps because I am an Asian American myself. My family moved to Mississippi from Guangdong in ‘39. Grew up eating St Louis cut ribs with fermented black bean sauce and ginger.

That being said, buy a z-saw with a universal blade. Thicker kerf and cuts like a laser.

The OP was having trouble cutting a straight line a distance of around 3/4" of an inch, for a dovetail joint. That's about four to five strokes for a 15 pt. western back saw.

[chuck van dyck]

The OP was having trouble cutting a straight line a distance of around 3/4" of an inch, for a dovetail joint. That's about four to five strokes for a 15 pt. western back saw.

Maybe a western back saw isnt the right fit for them. Also, that is extremely vague advice. I could watch a couple Paul Sellers videos and be convinced any old back saw, a file, some blocks of wood, and a vice is enough to get it working enough to cut great dovetails, but we know thats not how it works. If they are interested in pull saws, I’m offering a brand that I find to be affordable and extremely user friendly. Get your head out of your butt and think about how it was getting started.

[chuck van dyck]

Been practicing my handsaw use for some dovetail work, and I can't for the life of me get a plumb straight cut. I am using a Japanese pull saw, watched a ton of videos, but my saw always veers to the right of the line for the rear of the work. Been changing the height of the work, my body placement, and my grip, and the rear cut trends to the right of the line - the front is OK.

Thoughts?

Thanks

Ray

Did you watch Andrew Hunter’s video with Fine Woodworking? He uses an interesting technique where the workpiece is held in place against the bench by holding the saw vertically sawing downward. It really works quite well if you’re willing to squat.

Regardless of which continent your saw came from, think of the arm that is sawing as a piston and don’t let anything get in the way of its path. That should help regardless of what type of saw you use or how you hold it.