Can the dead vote? Non-political

[Dave Anderson NH]

Since retirement there have instances where my sometimes unoccupied mind conjures up weird scenarios One came up today. Our Town Moderator in conjunction with the Board of Selectmen and the Town Clerk have postponed tomorrow's town elections because we are expected to get 8-12" of heavy wet snow tomorrow and parking is limited at the town hall. Absentee ballots are available for the asking and of course would be opened after the polls close on the new date of March 28th.

Here is the question: If someone votes absentee and dies before the actual election (March 28th) is it a legitimate vote and can it be counted? Is it therefore possible that the dead can have legitimately voted?

Like I said, an unoccupied mind is a dangerous thing.

[Dave Fritz]

Interesting question. Wisconsin Statues

6.21  Deceased electors. When by due proof it appears to the inspectors or, in municipalities where absentee ballots are canvassed under s. 7.52 (https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/document/statutes/7.52), when by due proof it appears to the board of absentee ballot canvassers that a person casting an absentee ballot at an election has died before the date of the election, the inspectors or board of absentee ballot canvassers shall return the ballot with defective ballots to the issuing official. The casting of the ballot of a deceased elector does not invalidate the election.

So as I read it, in Wisconsin the ballot would not count.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Interesting Dave.

Now to complicate if further. If the voter filed the absentee ballot for tomorrow's election which is then postponed and they die after the date of the original scheduled date of the rescheduled election is it valid then?

[Bruce Wrenn]

I would think that anyone voting by the original scheduled date of the election would have their vote counted.

[Tom M King]

Must be a Really small election for it to matter

[Doug Garson]

I would think that anyone voting by the original scheduled date of the election would have their vote counted.
So you think logic would prevail? :confused:

[Dave Anderson NH]

Actually Tom it is small, town only. The town is 5200 but typically at town elections only 400-600 actually bother to vote. In this case there are 2 seats on the 5 person Board of Selectmen up for grabs. Both incumbents are running for re-election and for the first time ever we have 7 other candidates. Yes, 9 running for 2 seats makes every vote count because of the low turnout. I fully expect there to be some calls for a recount.

In any event, my case was just hypothetical musing.

[Jim Koepke]

It would likely depend on state or local laws.

There have been elections in some states where a person has mailed in a ballot then died. Since it was legally submitted before election day their vote counted. This is because there wasn't any law in place to disqualify it from being counted.

jtk

[Myk Rian]

So you think logic would prevail? :confused:
Hah. Good one.

[Allan Dozier]

My logic would be that the vote should not count. If the election is November 4 and I vote by absentee the middle of October I am merely filling out the ballot ahead of time to be counted on November 4. If my wife is planning on waiting until November 4 to vote in person but we both die on October 31 then my vote should not count same as hers. Of course exceedingly minor situation.

[Doug Garson]

My logic would be that the vote should not count. If the election is November 4 and I vote by absentee the middle of October I am merely filling out the ballot ahead of time to be counted on November 4. If my wife is planning on waiting until November 4 to vote in person but we both die on October 31 then my vote should not count same as hers. Of course exceedingly minor situation.
Your logic may or may not be sound but is it practical? What would trigger your vote being rejected and how long would it take?

[mike stenson]

Your logic may or may not be sound but is it practical? What would trigger your vote being rejected and how long would it take?

In Arizona, the County Recorder cancels the voter registration with the death certificate being noted. As has been said though, this is a state issue.

https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-voting-government-and-politics-presidential-299b03156144b12c0298184498f07958

[Jim Koepke]

For a valid legal opinion on this it might be advisable to look at what has already been published.

From the National Conference of State Legislators:

When an eligible voter casts an absentee (or mail) ballot, then dies before the election, does the ballot still count?
Some states are silent on this issue. Others address it directly in statute, either by prohibiting or permitting the counting of ballots from voters who die before Election Day.

Eight states—Arkansas, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, North Dakota, Tennessee and Virginia—have statutes that explicitly permit counting absentee ballots cast by voters who die before Election Day; one state—Connecticut—only counts these ballots if the deceased voter is a member of the armed services.
Ten states—Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, South Dakota and Wisconsin— have statutes that explicitly prohibit counting absentee ballots cast by voters who die before Election Day. Missouri states that such ballots be rejected only if sufficient evidence is shown to an election authority that the voter has died before the opening of the polls on Election Day, and the deceased voter’s ballot is still sealed in the ballot envelope.
At least two states—Kentucky and Mississippi—also prohibit counting deceased voters’ ballots, but through attorneys general opinions, rather than statute.
In the remaining 29 states, NCSL has not found citations indicating whether absentee/mail ballots from voters who die before Election Day are to be counted.
As a practical matter, it is hard to retrieve ballots from people who have died between casting their votes and Election Day. Once the absentee ballot has been verified and removed from the envelope for counting, the ballot cannot be retraced to the voter.

Catching a ballot, then, is only possible when it is still in its return envelope, and only in cases where election officials have received notice of the death.

It appears to be a matter of a few technical issues including state law, if the ballot was removed from the identifying envelope and if those processing the ballots were notified of a voter's death.

jtk

[roger wiegand]

In most places you need to be alive on election day for your vote to count. The case of a postponed election is interesting, it may or may not be covered by the relevant laws. I've never heard of an election being postponed for weather, though some probably should have been.

There was a lot of interest in dead voters a few years ago, quite a few cases were examined in detail. The good news was that in each case it seems the local election officials had correctly counted or not counted the ballots in question. Those folks take their work very seriously and do an excellent, under-appreciated job.

[Ronald Blue]

The dead vote early and often in Chicago. We have early voting here. 3 or 4 weeks before scheduled election you can go to the county courthouse and cast your vote. Standard ballot and when finished it's inserted into the voting machine and processed. It's not uncommon depending upon when you vote for the machine to show a 100 plus ballots have been processed. There is no way they would know who cast votes for what or whom. Wouldn't an absentee be the same? If the absentee requires an identifying sheet or something then you certainly wouldn't be able to vote anonymously. I've never cast an absentee because I took advantage of the early voting option.

[Mike Henderson]

In most places you need to be alive on election day for your vote to count. The case of a postponed election is interesting, it may or may not be covered by the relevant laws. I've never heard of an election being postponed for weather, though some probably should have been.

There was a lot of interest in dead voters a few years ago, quite a few cases were examined in detail. The good news was that in each case it seems the local election officials had correctly counted or not counted the ballots in question. Those folks take their work very seriously and do an excellent, under-appreciated job.

I agree with Roger. If you're not alive on the day the election is held, your vote does not count. If the election is rescheduled and you die before the day of the rescheduled election, your vote does not count.

Of course, that's only my opinion.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Wouldn't an absentee be the same? If the absentee requires an identifying sheet or something then you certainly wouldn't be able to vote anonymously. I've never cast an absentee because I took advantage of the early voting option.

There are multiple envelopes on mailed ballots. Some only have a sleeve around the ballot inside an envelope with the voter's information visible on the outside of the mailing envelope. Some use a third envelope around the envelope with the voter's information on a second concelled envelope.

In many instances once the voter's identity and validity is determined the envelopes are separated from the sleeve containing the ballot and the concelled ballot is processed according to procedures. Once the identifying envelope is separated from the ballot there is no way to track it back to the voter.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Here is the question: If someone votes absentee and dies before the actual election (March 28th) is it a legitimate vote and can it be counted? Is it therefore possible that the dead can have legitimately voted?


New Hampshire, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, South Dakota and Wisconsin— have statutes that explicitly prohibit counting absentee ballots cast by voters who die before Election Day.

Dave, it appears you live in a state that has a statute that prohibits counting of absentee ballots cast by voters who die before Election Day.

Now it might rest on a decision being made over if ballots returned before the first Election Day with the voter dying before the rescheduled Election Day will be counted.

jtk

[Dave Fritz]

Thank you Jim. It is indeed a state matter.


For a valid legal opinion on this it might be advisable to look at what has already been published.

From the National Conference of State Legislators:


It appears to be a matter of a few technical issues including state law, if the ballot was removed from the identifying envelope and if those processing the ballots were notified of a voter's death.

jtk

[Stan Calow]

But they have to know the voter is deceased, before the ballot could be rejected. There is no system in place requiring any person or office to automatically notify election boards of every death as soon as it occurs. Once the envelopes of an absentee ballot are open, the ballots are removed and handled separately and no way to tie any specific ballot to the person to whom it was issued. So any challenge has only up to election day to happen. After that, it doesnt matter.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes, the dead can vote. Ghoul-gle it.

[Brian Elfert]

State laws will vary, but if there is a recount can't the validity of votes by people who died before the election be challenged? Minnesota had a US Senate election go to a recount and it took months before the winner was finally determined. There were many challenges of votes for a variety of reasons.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

read it again, it does not count, only if due proof of death is presented, otherwise it counts and is not a reason to invalidate an election.

[Mike Henderson]

State laws will vary, but if there is a recount can't the validity of votes by people who died before the election be challenged? Minnesota had a US Senate election go to a recount and it took months before the winner was finally determined. There were many challenges of votes for a variety of reasons.

Voting is secret. Once the ballot is removed from the envelope, there's no way to know which way that person voted. If you had a recount, you could not back out that vote.

When votes are challenged in a recount, it's usually because of the way the ballot was marked. But there's no way to tie a ballot back to a person.

Mike

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

As close to authority, for the country in general as it gets: ​https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/counting-absentee-ballots-after-a-voter-dies

[Edwin Santos]

Voting AFTER dying warrants a stiff penalty

[Jim Becker]

My understanding is that while the vote was lawful at the time it was cast, if the voter passes away before the close of election day polls, their ballot is no longer valid and isn't supposed to be counted.

[Ron Citerone]

Voting AFTER dying warrants a stiff penalty

OMG! Your killin me Edwin!

[roger wiegand]

But they have to know the voter is deceased, before the ballot could be rejected. There is no system in place requiring any person or office to automatically notify election boards of every death as soon as it occurs. Once the envelopes of an absentee ballot are open, the ballots are removed and handled separately and no way to tie any specific ballot to the person to whom it was issued. So any challenge has only up to election day to happen. After that, it doesnt matter.

Ballots are numbered to provide exactly this traceability.

[Doug Garson]

My understanding is that while the vote was lawful at the time it was cast, if the voter passes away before the close of election day polls, their ballot is no longer valid and isn't supposed to be counted.
So if you voted in person on election day and got hit by a bus on your way home before the polls closed your vote wouldn't count but if the time of death was one minute after the polls closed it would?

[Bill Dufour]

My understanding is that in California the vote is valid as soon as it is dropped in the mailbox. There have been folks on the news who were so worked up about voting they made sure to file absentee as soon as they could . Just in case they died.
When their neighbor died around 1990 my parents said he was still on the posted allowed voters list after ten years.
Bill D

[Mike Henderson]

Ballots are numbered to provide exactly this traceability.

I'm not sure what you mean by "tracability" but voting is secret and anything that would allow someone to know how you voted, especially after you submitted your vote, would be against the law.

Think how this would work out. An elected politician could get a list of everyone who voted for him/her and only help those who voted "correctly".

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Ballots are numbered to provide exactly this traceability.

Where I have had numbered ballots the numbers were removed and handed to the voter before the ballot was put in the box.

Your state may have a different procedure, but if it can track back to the voter, that would likely be a violation of being a private ballot.


It really riles me to hear people says there is no voter fraud

I have never heard anyone say, "there is no voter fraud." I have heard claims of it being negligible.

The theme of this thread is the legality of deceased people having their votes counted, primarily if they voted early and die before election day. We should try and keep it "on topic" even if this is the Off Topic conference.

jtk

[Stan Calow]

Ballots are not numbered in my state. All the identifying info for validation is on the envelope. Once the envelope is validated and opened, the ballot is separated from the envelope and put in the machine, so there is no way to go back and connect a ballot with the voter. And then there's early voting, where you go in to the election office and fill out and submit a ballot just like election day, that has no identifying number on it.

[Edwin Santos]

Seems like this would be a rare occurrence at most. Not sure why all the grave concern.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Law says the elections are to be held a certain day. Not a certain month, or season and votes must be in by certain deadlines. Otherwise we might have some election results change 6 months after the election or 2 yrs after the loser took office, we have to change everything back. Absentee ballots were supposed to be for people like soldiers who could not travel hundreds of miles of across continents to vote on election day. I remember driving people from nursing homes to the polls on election day. Those who couldn't ride, simply didn't vote. Now Ballot harvesting runs rampant and crooked people can request ballots for the lunatics and comatose and then vote for them. Many jurisdictions are now permitting non-citizens to vote for mayor, city council etc. One beach resort town I heard of, has permitted non-resident property owners to vote on issues related to taxes. Some urban centers are starting to do this and how do we keep the tally between citizens and noncitizens separate?

[Jim Becker]

I'm not sure what you mean by "tracability" but voting is secret and anything that would allow someone to know how you voted, especially after you submitted your vote, would be against the law.

Think how this would work out. An elected politician could get a list of everyone who voted for him/her and only help those who voted "correctly".

Mike

Ballots are bar coded here to insure that only one ballot can be voted by a registered voter. It's not illegal.

[Lee Schierer]

In PA, deaths are recorded at the county court house and a death certificate is issued. I would expect that the county recorder would forward a listing of death certificates issued to the voter registration office. You can't access back accounts or safe deposit box of the deceased without a death certificate and a document issued by the county that you are an Executor. Even joint accounts are supposed to be frozen. There is a person in each bank that reads the obits each day to see if a person with an account in the bank has died so the account can be locked.

[Jerry Bruette]

Law says the elections are to be held a certain day. Not a certain month, or season and votes must be in by certain deadlines. Otherwise we might have some election results change 6 months after the election or 2 yrs after the loser took office, we have to change everything back. Absentee ballots were supposed to be for people like soldiers who could not travel hundreds of miles of across continents to vote on election day. I remember driving people from nursing homes to the polls on election day. Those who couldn't ride, simply didn't vote. Now Ballot harvesting runs rampant and crooked people can request ballots for the lunatics and comatose and then vote for them. Many jurisdictions are now permitting non-citizens to vote for mayor, city council etc. One beach resort town I heard of, has permitted non-resident property owners to vote on issues related to taxes. Some urban centers are starting to do this and how do we keep the tally between citizens and noncitizens separate?

If elections are to be held on a "certain day" I've always wondered why the polls aren't open for 24 hours on that day. It is called election day isn't it? We can count the votes any time we want. We would be much better off keeping the media out of it when they report, correctly or incorrectly, how many votes have been counted for any particular candidate and sway the process in the direction they want.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

.... There is a person in each bank that reads the obits each day to see if a person with an account in the bank has died so the account can be locked.


Wat??? ....:D

[Mike Henderson]

Ballots are bar coded here to insure that only one ballot can be voted by a registered voter. It's not illegal.

I can guarantee that the barcode does not tie back to a voter. Being able to tell how an individual voted would negate the concept of a secret vote, which is a cornerstone of our voting system.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

In PA, deaths are recorded at the county court house and a death certificate is issued. I would expect that the county recorder would forward a listing of death certificates issued to the voter registration office. You can't access back accounts or safe deposit box of the deceased without a death certificate and a document issued by the county that you are an Executor. Even joint accounts are supposed to be frozen. There is a person in each bank that reads the obits each day to see if a person with an account in the bank has died so the account can be locked.


Wat??? ....:D

It may be a local or state wide situation.

It seems denying the spouse of the deceased access to their account would be a cruel practice. Anyone who lost their car or home due to not being able to pay down their loan(s) would have grounds for a lawsuit.

Many of the recurring payments in my household are paid automagically on a set date every month. Would those also be stopped? If my spouse died, would all of my utilities be cut off?

jtk

[Doug Garson]

In PA, deaths are recorded at the county court house and a death certificate is issued. I would expect that the county recorder would forward a listing of death certificates issued to the voter registration office. You can't access back accounts or safe deposit box of the deceased without a death certificate and a document issued by the county that you are an Executor. Even joint accounts are supposed to be frozen. There is a person in each bank that reads the obits each day to see if a person with an account in the bank has died so the account can be locked.
I can understand joint accounts being frozen if they require both signatures but if the account is set up so either can sign, it doesn't make sense.

[Tom M King]

Qualifying as an Executor is easy and quick, so it's not really a problem. I'm been an Executor several times in two states for some complicated estates. As soon as the Executor is qualified and notice given, the bank accounts are open. No Utilities would hardly be cut off.

[Ronald Blue]

Even joint accounts are supposed to be frozen. There is a person in each bank that reads the obits each day to see if a person with an account in the bank has died so the account can be locked.

It must be different in Pennsylvania then. My wife worked at a bank for 25 years and joint accounts aren't frozen here. In fact my MIL passed away early in February and because my wife was also on her account she wrote checks for the funeral expenses from her account. Totally legal and allowed. Same with any joint account. It's only a problem when both aren't on the account. Then it takes some legal hoops being jumped through. It's also not a legal requirement that a death notice or obituary be published at least here. I know of a guy who recently passed away and other than knowing because of close friends there has never been anything published in print or online. I can't imagine a large bank with thousands of accounts in a heavily populated area trying to keep up with who might have died. What happens if they find someone with the exact same name as an account holder in the obituaries? Seems like a recipe for disaster.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

You mean like the town in New England where all 9 residents gather for a party on election eve and vote right after midnight? https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10153661983446130

[Mike Henderson]

When my wife passed away, I was not blocked from our joint account. It would be terrible if they did do that. There is so much to do in a time like that - you sure don't need a fight to get access to your funds.

Mike

[Ron Citerone]

When my wife passed away, I was not blocked from our joint account. It would be terrible if they did do that. There is so much to do in a time like that - you sure don't need a fight to get access to your funds.

Mike

Sorry about your wife Mike. My brother had power of attorney when my mother passed. We had joint executorship, but an estate account hadn't been set up and the will wasn't filed at the courthouse. At the funeral luncheon my brother wrote a check for the bill. It bounced because the account had been closed without us knowing.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Actually in PA, the county coroner issues a state vital statistics death certificate, along with nurses and doctors at the hospital. There is no notice to the county or input to the county offices, the forms go directly to State vital statistics office. Banks freeze accounts based on death notices in the papers. If a family doesn't put the death in the paper, and the person was not otherwise newsworthy, the banks will not know to freeze accounts. Families of social security recipients have committed social security fraud and pension fraud by keeping the deaths under the radar. A Cesus guy showed up here asking about a neighbor. Said according to their records, she was 103 and still living there. She died at least 15 years earlier and apparently the family just kept her checks coming in. One of them went to jail a couple years later, but the family lived off those checks for over a decade. Counties only have death records prior to 1908 https://www.health.pa.gov/topics/certificates/Pages/FAQ-Death.aspx#:~:text=Information%20on%20death%20reco rds%20that%20occurred%20prior%20to,All%20death%20c ertificates%20contain%20a%20raised%20%28embossed%2 9%20seal.

[Bill Dufour]

Like Arsenic and Old Lace Dorthea Punte lived about 90 miles from here. She ran a rooming house and when tennets died she buried them in the yard and basement and the checks kept coming. She claimed they were all natural deaths. The DA convicted her for only three of nine known deaths.
Bill D

[Jim Becker]

I can guarantee that the barcode does not tie back to a voter. Being able to tell how an individual voted would negate the concept of a secret vote, which is a cornerstone of our voting system.

Mike
I can actually guarantee it does tie to the voter/ballot here in my district because I accidentally got a replacement ballot two elections ago after I had already submitted the first one received. Same for my spouse. I called the county election board to discuss and they invalidated the new ballots and restored the ones already submitted to being valid. That said, I suspect that the actual voting data is not tied to the ballot barcode/number used for insuring that only one ballot per registered voter is valid.

[Jim Becker]

When my wife passed away, I was not blocked from our joint account. It would be terrible if they did do that. There is so much to do in a time like that - you sure don't need a fight to get access to your funds.

Mike
This is why it's critical that assets be in both names for a married couple and that a legal estate plan is in place. (will, living will, DPoA for both parties) and also why it's a good idea for another family member to be an account owner when one parent passes away or even before that if there is illness and/or increased risk. It prevents accounts being frozen pending probate (if there is any). I did that with my mother after my father passed away for any accounts that already did not have me as an account owner. (I was already managing their affairs, but discovered that there were a bunch of accounts in different institutions that only my parents were listed. Consolidation to one bank ensued...)

----
Lee, I'm not sure that you are correct that jointly held/owned accounts would be frozen if there is a proper estate plan because that insures that most assets pass directly and immediately. Folks who do not have wills and DPoA may have issues, however. BTW, the death notice stuff is automated via SSA which a bank's system apparently has access too. "Reading obituaries" would not work since they are an optional thing that folks actually have to pay for to get published.

[Bill Dufour]

My brother was on some of my Mom's accounts so he wrote most checks for her. Should have done it for everything but by the time we realized it, it was too late. Any bank teller would have said she is maybe not competent and we need a judge to decide what to do. Rather then force her to testify and the expense he just got good at forging her name. Since it was small normal bills, nothing weird or expensive, no one questioned it.
I know Wells Fargo has deposited checks into the ATM that I forgot to sign.
Bill D

[Lawrence Duckworth]

This is why it's critical that assets be in both names for a married couple and that a legal estate plan is in place. (will, living will, DPoA for both parties) and also why it's a good idea for another family member to be an account owner when one parent passes away or even before that if there is illness and/or increased risk. It prevents accounts being frozen .


Sage advice! [I would even consider adding your adult children to property deeds]....but I don't know where you guys get the idea someone at the bank after reading an OB has the right to freeze an account.

[Stan Calow]

My experience was of a bank closing access to a jointly owned safe deposit box after seeing the obit. On my first visit to the bank, they had me open the box in their presence, and then they went through the box looking for, and finding a copy of the Will. They said they were required to take any Will they find and send it directly to the court. Then I was free to go through the box. No issue with joint bank accounts.

In our state, when someone has requested and been issued a mail-in or absentee ballot, it is noted in the data system immediately, so they cant be issued another ballot. The system would flag it. If they show up at the polling station anyway, they can only be issued another ballot if they bring in the one they were mailed and it is spoiled right there. No barcodes on any ballot, just on the envelope that a mail-in ballot is inside. Ballots handed out at the polling station are not trackable.

The dead person situation, I think the problem is there is likely a multi-day lag between a death and any official record being available. So even if an election office is keeping up to date, the likelihood of them catching all

[Jim Becker]

Sage advice! [I would even consider adding your adult children to property deeds]....but I don't know where you guys get the idea someone at the bank after reading an OB has the right to freeze an account.
Property deeds are a bit more complicated, particularly when they are not held free and clear. A local family law attorney can provide the best advice on that to be sure that things are setup so there is a clean path for survivors in multiple scenarios.

Also, prompted by a private exchange with Lee, I'll mention, as I should have in a previous response, that a proper estate plan (will, living will, DPoA) needs to be reviewed periodically to insure that its provisions are in line with current state (or whatever jurisdiction applies for non US folks) laws as they sometimes change. I ran into this after my father passed away, finding that my parents' wills and living wills were way out of date with Florida's laws. That resulted in needing to have my mother's redone by a Florida attorney...I fortunately found one who was semi-retired, was willing to travel to my mother's residence and had a very reasonable, low fee for the service as resources were limited. (There are now decent online legal resources that one can prepare their own papers if, and ONLY if, things are simple...no real estate property, etc)

[Stan Calow]

Regarding ownership of a house and putting children on deeds. In our state, we have something called a Beneficiary Deed, which is effectively a Transfer on Death filed with the county ahead of time. Immediately on death, the beneficiary owns the property without any further action or legal decision. They have different names for such documents in other states. Extremely highly recommended. Not sure how that works with a mortgage in place, other than you cant change the terms of a loan without the banks agreement.

[Bill Dufour]

Make sure car titles are in both spouses name. When someone dies get 10-12 official copies of the death certificate. Many places will take a xerox copy others will require a stamped official copy.
Also many widows find out all the bills are in the husbands name only and they have no credit record.
Adding a childs name to a bill can help them get credit when starting out. The adults pay it like always but five year old Jr. is building a history of paying on time.
Bill D

[Lee Schierer]

Just to clarify, I should have said death notices, not Obits. Poa's end on death of the individual and then the will and/or estate plan takes effect. To sell a vehicle or real property in PA that has joint signatures, you have to have both signatures on the transaction if both parties are living. A simple POA may not cover one of the parties of joint ownership being incapacitated.

[Ron Citerone]

In PA, I learned the way a deed to real estate is titled may make ownership transfer simple. However, there are tax implications that affect capital gains vs inheritance tax. In my instance it was a combination of the two. I recommend talking to an attorney and make sure you understand how the property will transfer as well as the tax implications. Finding out at settlement on a future sale should not have any surprises if you are informed. Also there are lookback rules that pertain to nursing homes and medicaid.

[Mike Henderson]

Sage advice! [I would even consider adding your adult children to property deeds]..

There are some problems that can occur when children are put on a deed with the parent(s). I would advise anyone to get help from an attorney before you do that.

Mike

[Ronald Blue]

There are some problems that can occur when children are put on a deed with the parent(s). I would advise anyone to get help from an attorney before you do that.

Mike

There are other ways to accomplish the same thing. As Mike says check with an attorney who's knowledgeable of estate planning in the state you reside.

[Jim Koepke]

There are other ways to accomplish the same thing. As Mike says check with an attorney who's knowledgeable of estate planning in the state you reside.

Or the state where the property is located if you have property outside of your state of residence.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

It may be a local or state wide situation.

It seems denying the spouse of the deceased access to their account would be a cruel practice. Anyone who lost their car or home due to not being able to pay down their loan(s) would have grounds for a lawsuit.

Many of the recurring payments in my household are paid automagically on a set date every month. Would those also be stopped? If my spouse died, would all of my utilities be cut off?


My parents have all but one bank account set up as joint accounts. My mother has had a savings account with a few thousand dollars for decades so she has money in case the joint accounts are frozen if my father dies first.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

There are other ways to accomplish the same thing. As Mike says check with an attorney who's knowledgeable of estate planning in the state you reside.

In 1970, when I checked into NAS Meridian, MS, I was informed that my wife and I would be notified when our meeting with an attorney there on the base would occur. At that meeting we were recommended to allow that attorney to assist us into generating a POA for the following reason. At that time, according to the attorney, in the State of Mississippi, in the event of a death where there was no POA or will for the husband, a wife would not inherit at the time of his death. Instead, the state could cease all assets including the children, sell properties and put them into a fund that the oldest male child would inherit when he became of age. My wife has had a complete power of attorney since early 1971 as a result.

Check with an attorney licensed and practicing in the state where you reside!

[Brian Elfert]

Voting is secret. Once the ballot is removed from the envelope, there's no way to know which way that person voted. If you had a recount, you could not back out that vote.

When votes are challenged in a recount, it's usually because of the way the ballot was marked. But there's no way to tie a ballot back to a person.


Right, I forgot that ballots have no way to trace them back to the voter once they are cast. The case here in Minnesota hinged on stray marks and such. The whole thing was silly with people on both sides trying to interpret the intent of the voter. Each party would challenge ballots that benefited the opposition, but of course they didn't challenge if it benefited their candidate. It was months and millions of tax dollars before a winner was declared.

[Mike Henderson]

I can actually guarantee it does tie to the voter/ballot here in my district because I accidentally got a replacement ballot two elections ago after I had already submitted the first one received. Same for my spouse. I called the county election board to discuss and they invalidated the new ballots and restored the ones already submitted to being valid. That said, I suspect that the actual voting data is not tied to the ballot barcode/number used for insuring that only one ballot per registered voter is valid.

They knew you submitted your ballot, but once your ballot was in the system, it is impossible to tie your ballot to you. How you voted is secret.

Perhaps you live in a place where the mail-in ballots are not entered into the system until election day (not opened until election day). In that case, they would have your envelope with the ballot in it, and the envelope is marked with your name and address.

But the actual ballot does not carry any identifying marks. No where in this country is it possible to identify how a voter voted after the fact (legally).

Mike

[Jim Becker]

They knew you submitted your ballot, but once your ballot was in the system, it is impossible to tie your ballot to you. How you voted is secret.
Not so sure on that because it literally had a barcode on it. The second one that arrived and was subsequently invalidated also had the barcode but with a different number which is how the nice lady on the phone was able to see both in the system and change the validity status. But yes, in Pennsyltucky, there is no pre-canvassing (which needs to change) which means the ballots are not counted until the polls close at 8pm on election day.

[Bill Dufour]

In California cemetery land can not be condemned and forced to be sold, even for public projects. I guess they are worried dead seniors will get up and vote them out of office if their rest is disturbed.
City wanted to widen a main street and widen an intersection in my hometown. Cemetery had a well in the middle of the project. The actual cemetery was about one half mile away so the city was surprised. They had to ask nicely if they could dig a new well add new pumps, electrical, some new pipes, etc. for free.
In California a water well is a major asset. Not something to be taken lightly. People have been killed over water in the west.
Bill D

[Jerry Bruette]

Shouldn't joint accounts be set up as Payable On Death(POD) or with right of survivor ship? And a vehicle title should have both names on it but it should be Mr. Brown Or Mrs. Brown and not Mr. Brown And Mrs. Brown.

[Bill Dufour]

[ should be Mr. Brown Or Mrs. Brown and not Mr. Brown And Mrs. Brown.[/QUOTE]

I think that should read Mr. Bruette or Mrs. Bruette. Your milage may vary
Bill D

[Jerry Bruette]

[ should be Mr. Brown Or Mrs. Brown and not Mr. Brown And Mrs. Brown.

I think that should read Mr. Bruette or Mrs. Bruette. Your milage may vary
Bill D[/QUOTE]
As long as it's not Mr. Bruette and Mrs. Brown we'll be OK.

[Jim Becker]

Shouldn't joint accounts be set up as Payable On Death(POD) or with right of survivor ship? And a vehicle title should have both names on it but it should be Mr. Brown Or Mrs. Brown and not Mr. Brown And Mrs. Brown.
Yes, account ownership should be setup to permit clean transfer, but...individual state laws can come into play if there is no valid and current estate planning. (Will, Living Will, DPoA) Even folks who do not have substantial assets need these documents to insure things are handled cleanly and with the least disruption.

[Lee Schierer]

Yes, account ownership should be setup to permit clean transfer, but...individual state laws can come into play if there is no valid and current estate planning. (Will, Living Will, DPoA) Even folks who do not have substantial assets need these documents to insure things are handled cleanly and with the least disruption.

I concur!!!

[Ronald Blue]

Yes, account ownership should be setup to permit clean transfer, but...individual state laws can come into play if there is no valid and current estate planning. (Will, Living Will, DPoA) Even folks who do not have substantial assets need these documents to insure things are handled cleanly and with the least disruption.

Where you reside obviously makes a huge difference. When my father passed there was nothing that needed to be done for his estate. It passed to my brother and I and nothing else was required. No court filing required for a will or anything. Estate planning here simply means have the paperwork in order so as to not need any actions afterwards.

[Dave Anderson NH]

My wife and I set up a revocable trust. The trust owns the house, all of our bank accounts including savings, and is an added insured on our cars. Both of us are listed as trustees with added contingent trustees should both of us croak at the same time. We also have wills, durable powers of attorney, medical proxies, and some other stuff which I forget. Our elder lawyer insists on meeting with us once per year to review and update everything. We figure we have things pretty well covered so we will have access to anything and everything we might need.

[Jim Becker]

Where you reside obviously makes a huge difference. When my father passed there was nothing that needed to be done for his estate. It passed to my brother and I and nothing else was required. No court filing required for a will or anything. Estate planning here simply means have the paperwork in order so as to not need any actions afterwards.
Kinda what I was saying, but as always state laws vary in the US, so it's always best to insure that the "correct" ducks are in a row via an attorney that does family law for your state. (assuming US resident...but the same advice would apply in other countries for sure)

[Dwayne Watt]

We also set up a revocable trust a while back along with all the POAs (durable and medical), etc. Anything with a title or other sort of paperwork is owned by the trust (house, cars, RV, bank accounts, land, etc). The trust is the beneficiary of brokerage accounts, life insurance, etc. The only thing that does not get listed in trust are retirement accounts (401K, IRA, etc). I don't recall the exact reason but our lawyer instructed us not to do so. As Dave indicated, there are contingency upon contingency for who becomes trustee in the event both of us die or become incapacitated as well as who might get what from whatever remains in the estate at that point in time. Changing the will aspect for estate distribution is basically as easy as adding a sheet of paper to the trust documents.

[Keegan Shields]

I recall that ballots are secret for two main reasons.

1. A secret ballot prevents voters from getting paid to vote a certain way since there is no way to verify how they voted.

2. Prevents voter intimidation, blackmail, and retribution.

Our election process is overwhelmingly secure because it’s so decentralized. And thanks to all of the great people I’ve met helping out on voting day making it possible.

[Bill Dufour]

I believe if a candidate dies right before the election he/she can still be elected into office. Then they have to decide what to do. Often the wife is appointed until there is a special election if they die in office.
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

I think that should read Mr. Bruette or Mrs. Bruette. Your milage may vary
Bill D
As long as it's not Mr. Bruette and Mrs. Brown we'll be OK.[/QUOTE]
I bet Mrs. Brown has a lovely daughter.
BilL D.

[Doug Garson]

Interesting that someone can die before election day and still be elected but someone who legally votes early and dies before election day doesn't have their vote counted. Seems to me any legally cast vote should count regardless of whether the voter subsequently dies before polls close. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting that someone can die before election day and still be elected but someone who legally votes early and dies before election day doesn't have their vote counted. Seems to me any legally cast vote should count regardless of whether the voter subsequently dies before polls close. Just my 2 cents worth.

There are a few technicalities to consider.

1) The laws on this are different from state to state.

2) If someone casts a ballot on election day and then meets their demise before the polls close it may be impossible to keep their vote from counting.

3) A candidate dying before election day and being elected to office is another anomaly that comes under state law. Ballots have to be printed well before election day.

4) A quote from 74 posts previous to this one:


When an eligible voter casts an absentee (or mail) ballot, then dies before the election, does the ballot still count?
Some states are silent on this issue. Others address it directly in statute, either by prohibiting or permitting the counting of ballots from voters who die before Election Day.

Eight states—Arkansas, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, North Dakota, Tennessee and Virginia—have statutes that explicitly permit counting absentee ballots cast by voters who die before Election Day; one state—Connecticut—only counts these ballots if the deceased voter is a member of the armed services.
Ten states—Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, South Dakota and Wisconsin— have statutes that explicitly prohibit counting absentee ballots cast by voters who die before Election Day. Missouri states that such ballots be rejected only if sufficient evidence is shown to an election authority that the voter has died before the opening of the polls on Election Day, and the deceased voter’s ballot is still sealed in the ballot envelope.
At least two states—Kentucky and Mississippi—also prohibit counting deceased voters’ ballots, but through attorneys general opinions, rather than statute.
In the remaining 29 states, NCSL has not found citations indicating whether absentee/mail ballots from voters who die before Election Day are to be counted.
As a practical matter, it is hard to retrieve ballots from people who have died between casting their votes and Election Day. Once the absentee ballot has been verified and removed from the envelope for counting, the ballot cannot be retraced to the voter.

Catching a ballot, then, is only possible when it is still in its return envelope, and only in cases where election officials have received notice of the death.

In Washington state the return envelope has signitures, date and a barcode. Once the ballot and the privacy envelope are seperated from the cover (return) envelope, there is no way of identifying whose ballot is whose. In Washington and I believe Oregon (possibly other states) all ballots are mailed out and either mailed back or dropped off in drop boxes.

jtk

[Doug Garson]

There are a few technicalities to consider.

1) The laws on this are different from state to state.

2) If someone casts a ballot on election day and then meets their demise before the polls close it may be impossible to keep their vote from counting.

3) A candidate dying before election day and being elected to office is another anomaly that comes under state law. Ballots have to be printed well before election day.

4) A quote from 74 posts previous to this one:



In Washington state the return envelope has signitures, date and a barcode. Once the ballot and the privacy envelope are seperated from the cover (return) envelope, there is no way of identifying whose ballot is whose. In Washington and I believe Oregon (possibly other states) all ballots are mailed out and either mailed back or dropped off in drop boxes.

jtk
Agree the laws vary by state but what's the logic behind a law that requires tossing a legally cast vote just because the voter died afterwards? Realistically, the number of voters who die after voting but before the polls close is statistically insignificant, why waste the time and effort to weed those votes out (if it's even possible) and toss them?
Passing the elected position on to the spouse of a candidate who dies makes little sense either, what if the have totally different positions on the issues? What if they are registered to different parties?

[Stan Calow]

I think thats why the exact wording of the laws of each state allowing early ballots has to be looked at carefully. We have an election coming up in two weeks. I am going to ask the folks running it about this.

We have had two candidates who were elected while dead, I think for US Senate offices. There spouses were not automatically entitled to fill the job, the governor appoints them to fill a vacancy. This may be as a courtesy, but this avoids internal party squabbling, and appointing other candidates who were defeated in primaries from having a motivation for murder.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Deaths are not recorded at the county courthouse in PA, since 1908. . It is a state death form, filled out by a coroner, attending physician or even a nurse and sent to the state vital statistics agency, which records the death and issues certificates. Families put death notices in the paper, and a private service reads the papers, on-line funeral home schedules, etc, and in turn notifies banks and other institutions. Back around 1875, I dated a girl who worked for that service. She started with the early edition papers at 7 am and sent out lists hourly. She finished up with the early evening editions by 3 pm. Her employer had some newspapers brought by courier just to rush the information out. They had about 20 0ffices across PA. BAck then, each bank or institution also had staff that would check master rolls of account holders so accounts could be frozen. Joint accounts between husband and wife are rarely frozen, because under state law, there is no inheritance tax and by law accounts held by husband and wife automatically go to the surviving spouse. Banks are required to send information to the state revenue agency concerning other joint accounts, so the state can be sure to collect inheritance tax.

[Jim Becker]

Perry, not many "death notices" get to the almost non-existent newspapers these days, especially since they cost money to the family to post them. But yes, the paperwork is at the state level.

[Tom M King]

I haven't been an Executor in Virginia or North Carolina since 2006, but it was required then to run a death notice in a local paper, and give notice that if the deceased owed anyone money that they had a limited time to give notice and collect it. I don't know about now, but Obituaries cost more money to put in a newspaper than you may have thought. Some of the family members put in really long obituaries and were shocked to find out how much they cost.

With a Will, an Executor can get qualified very easily. I used to go to the Clerk of Courts Office to qualify in a few minutes, and go by the newspaper and bank right after that. There is no good reason for a bank account to be locked for any amount of time that would make much difference.

With Inheritance Tax rates these days, it's not much of a problem, but one complicated Estate I did had a lot of property in two states, and not much money. It took me a couple of years to sell enough property to pay the Inheritance Tax back then. The accounting was pretty complicated too, but it all made sense so it wasn't really hard.

[Alan Lightstone]

I believe if a candidate dies right before the election he/she can still be elected into office. Then they have to decide what to do. Often the wife is appointed until there is a special election if they die in office.
Bill D
This has actually happened a number of times. Last year, a deceased Pennsylvania representative won in a landslide. With 85% of the vote.

I recently watched an old West Wing episode where a main character worked hard and elected a dead person for Congress. Intentionally.

[Mike Henderson]

I haven't been an Executor in Virginia or North Carolina since 2006, but it was required then to run a death notice in a local paper, and give notice that if the deceased owed anyone money that they had a limited time to give notice and collect it. I don't know about now, but Obituaries cost more money to put in a newspaper than you may have thought. Some of the family members put in really long obituaries and were shocked to find out how much they cost.

I agree with Tom's comment here. When my wife passed away, I was flabbergasted at how expensive it was to place an obituary.

And he's right about a time limit for people to make claims against the estate. More than a year after my wife died, I got a bill from Blue Cross. They said they made a mistake and paid for something they shouldn't have and wanted some money. I sent them a copy of the death certificate and told them the estate had been closed. Never heard from them again.

Mike

[Brian Elfert]

Perry, not many "death notices" get to the almost non-existent newspapers these days, especially since they cost money to the family to post them. But yes, the paperwork is at the state level.

The local newspaper still prints a lot of obituaries. Many families choose to publish them on Sunday so the Sunday paper has 8 to 10 pages of obituaries. I am pretty sure there no legal requirement to print an obituary in a newspaper upon death. Now, there are some notices of probate in the legal notices sections of the newspaper, but it can't be required for every estate or there would be many more of them.

[Brian Elfert]

I agree with Tom's comment here. When my wife passed away, I was flabbergasted at how expensive it was to place an obituary.


The local newspaper charges $13.45 per line for an obituary for the first day. Any subsequent days get a 50% discount. A line is only 30 to 35 characters.

[Ron Citerone]

but it can't be required for every estate or there would be many more of them.

I think in PA it is not required, but it shortens the time that people can charge the estate for unpaid bills.

[Stan Calow]

So. I just did my absentee (two weeks early) ballot at my county election board. I asked the question about ballots of the dead. They confirmed that once the ballots are through the reader, there is no way to identify my ballot with me, and therefore no way to negate it if I die in the interim. The state voter database is updated periodically when death certificates are issued by the state health department but that is not instantaneous. I didnt ask them if they open and process the ballots before election day, or if they check the state database before opening.

[Bill Dufour]

Some states or counties do not allow mail in ballots to be opened before election day. other sallow them to be opened but not counted. I think some may allow them to be counted before election day but never report the count until polls are closed.
In the west we hate when they call a national election before our polls are closed. The losing party voters tend to not bother to go in to vote later in the day so the loose more local elections.
Bill D.

PS: Alaska is the easternmost state so some of their polls should close before the east coast polls even open.

[Patty Hann]

Some states or counties do not allow mail in ballots to be opened before election day. other sallow them to be opened but not counted. I think some may allow them to be counted before election day but never report the count until polls are closed.
In the west we hate when they call a national election before our polls are closed. The losing party voters tend to not bother to go in to vote later in the day so the loose more local elections.
Bill D.

PS: Alaska is the easternmost state so some of their polls should close before the east coast polls even open.

Easternmost, northernmost and westernmost :D

[Jim Becker]

Some states or counties do not allow mail in ballots to be opened before election day. other sallow them to be opened but not counted. I think some may allow them to be counted before election day but never report the count until polls are closed.

Counting early/mail-in ballots before the close of election day is called "pre-canvassing". And yes, it's not permitted in a number of states while is normal for others. Pennsylvania does not permit pre-canvasing which is why there is a longer delay with getting the actual, final results. It would be nice to change that, especially given the increasing volume of folks (regardless of party) who prefer to use mail-in/drop-off ballots rather than wait in lines, some having to take off from work to do so, but there are certainly mixed feelings about that and there is an actual, real political battle with some interesting twists around the subject in the state. But we cannot go into that here.

[Mike Henderson]

Easternmost, northernmost and westernmost :D

While a small part of Alaska lies to the west of the 180 degree meridian, meaning that small part lies in the eastern longitudes, all of Alaska lies to the east of the International Date Line, which means from a date and time point of view, it's way after the East Coast.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

Only because they bent the date line due to political pressure. I understand the soviet union ran on Moscow time. All government offices opened and closed at the same moment across the entire 11 time zones.
No idea if russia still does this or not.
Bill D.

[Mike Henderson]

The International Date Line meanders around quite a bit. There are some islands in the Pacific which are east of the 180-degree longitude and are west of the International Date Line. But that's because they wanted to be there.

Having all of Alaska being on the same date seems more logical than political.

Mike

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Here in PA, it is the normal prectice to run a notice in the paper, but it is not required. In fact I have not done it with any of the estates, I handled. The statute of limitations remains the same. If the deceased owed money, they or the estate still gad to be sued on time. So by holding estates more than 4 years, the estate didn't have t worry about paying debts for which suit was not filed. I had an estate that had multiple possible claims, mostly questionable, and limited assets. Settled the estate after 4 years and none of the claimants ever filed suit although several wrote letters saying they had claims.. The daughter got the money, lots of attorney's fees and expenses saved for the estate. By just ignoring the claimants.

[Rod Sheridan]

My understanding is that while the vote was lawful at the time it was cast, if the voter passes away before the close of election day polls, their ballot is no longer valid and isn't supposed to be counted.

Jim, how would their ballot be identified?

Where I live if I vote by mail my ballot is inside an unmarked envelope inside my marked envelope.

As soon as if arrives at the processing location, my marked ballot envelope is recorded as arriving, and being valid.

Then it is opened and my unmarked ballot envelop is placed in the pile for opening on election day.

There’s no way for them to determine which ballot is mine……Regards, Rod

[Jim Becker]

Like I said previously, the ballots have a barcode on them and the system prevents someone from voting twice.

[Mike Henderson]

Like I said previously, the ballots have a barcode on them and the system prevents someone from voting twice.

That's true only until they open the envelopes and process the ballots. Once the ballot is separated from the envelope, there better be no way to tie the ballot to an individual.

Our whole voting system is based on secret ballots. If anyone could know how a person voted, there would be too many opportunities for mischief.

If you believe your ballot is not secret, you should contact your local officials and ask about how ballots are handled and whether the ballots are secret.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

As soon as if arrives at the processing location, my marked ballot envelope is recorded as arriving, and being valid.

Then it is opened and my unmarked ballot envelop is placed in the pile for opening on election day.


Like I said previously, the ballots have a barcode on them and the system prevents someone from voting twice.


That's true only until they open the envelopes and process the ballots. Once the ballot is separated from the envelope, there better be no way to tie the ballot to an individual.

Things are done differently in different states and, in Rod's case, provinces.

In some places the ballots are left inside the signature envelopes, where the bar code most likely is located, until they are verified and maybe even until election day.

In other places the ballot inside the privacy envelope is removed from the signature envelope and as soon as the signature is verified. Unverified envelopes are likely held incase the voter notices, at least in my state, on the local election board that their ballot has not been returned.

I can not imagine any fair voting system that can trace a ballot to the voter.

jtk

[Dave Fritz]

I had an interesting thing happen. The town in which I live is in two counties. While the majority of the village is in Grant County. Seems I was the only one to vote who lived in the Iowa County side. A state wide paper had an article saying the lone voter in Montfort, living in Iowa County voted for .... My vote wasn't private. Stupid journalism.

[Jim Becker]

That's true only until they open the envelopes and process the ballots. Once the ballot is separated from the envelope, there better be no way to tie the ballot to an individual.

As I've said multiple times...there is a barcode on the ballot.

[Jim Koepke]

As I've said multiple times...there is a barcode on the ballot.

Are you 100% positive it is a different barcode on every ballot?

It may be a barcode for the counting machines to know which precinct or district the ballot is to be counted in. In many states multiple precincts or districts are counted on centrally located machines. The precincts or districts may have different ballots.

This is from the Pennsylvania Department of State > https://www.dos.pa.gov/SimplyStated/pages/Article.aspx?post=47

More general barcode information here > https://www.nass.org/sites/default/files/2019-07/Election-Systems-Software-White-Paper-NASS-Summer19.pdf

There is a lot more information on this. Right now, my breakfast is calling.

jtk

[Sam Force]

Anyone who knows me well knows who I vote for. Sometimes that's good sometimes not so much

[Jim Koepke]

Anyone who knows me well knows who I vote for. Sometimes that's good sometimes not so much

Same here, but I do not think any of us wanting the state or any other politicos watching over our vote.

jtk