SawStop

[James Jayko]

I know a lot of people on the forum will complain that SawStops are too expensive or they should just give their tech away etc. Not starting one of those threads.

I was at a community shop yesterday and saw someone trigger the SawStop. He was doing a bunch repetitive cuts, reached over the blade, and got his finger. He had a cut, but he put a band-aid on it and was back to work in 10 minutes. This would have been a finger amputation at best on another traditional cabinet saw. The guy knows what he's doing, he just got a bit careless (it doesn't take much) and was lucky it was a SawStop.

The tech works. And most TS injuries seem to happen to people who know what they're doing and get tired/lazy/careless. Just keep it in mind!

[John Kananis]

First off, I think sawstop is a great product. That said, I also feel people take chances they really shouldn't because the saw is "safe". So some of those triggers should be attributed to user carelessness imho.

[James Jayko]

I think that's always possible. I have to stop people all the time from doing truly stupid things (last example: trying to cross cut a LOG on a tablesaw freehand). Especially in a shared space, I see a lot of people who don't even know that what they are doing is a terrible idea, at best. Its like a gun. Never assume the safety is on. Always be prepared to destroy whatever you're point it at. And don't point it at your finger.

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks for sharing James.

I think its important to share these stories to keep the rest of us thinking about what can go wrong. Even if you have a SawStop, there are plenty of other power tools in your shop that can maim (bandsaw, router, miter saw, shaper, mortiser, jointer, planer etc.)

The most dangerous pilots in military aviation are those with 3K-5K hours. Enough experience to get complacent and start ignoring that inner voice that says "bad idea." The guys with 10K hours made it past this stage and the new pilots follow the rules.

Whenever I have a bunch of repetitive cuts to do, the hairs on my neck stand up and that inner voice says "danger", because I know that is when I'm at risk.

I'm sure anyone who has worked around dangerous circumstances knows what I'm talking about (heavy equipment, aviation, firearms, explosives etc.).


My recommendations: Use PPE, don't get in a hurry, if you are distracted - stop, and listen to your inner voice!

[James Jayko]

That's the hardest inner voice to listen to in this situation: "I'm kinda tired, but I only have a few more cuts to go..."

[glenn bradley]

That's the hardest inner voice to listen to in this situation: "I'm kinda tired, but I only have a few more cuts to go..."

That's the one (or one like it) that always seem to get you. I would like to hope that people don't let up on safety just because they are using a Saw Stop. I must say that in my career I always preached to not tell people the data network was secure unless the security was top notch. Otherwise they would think they were "safe" and do all sorts of foolish things. I suppose the same could be said for a tablesaw(?). I'm in the camp that believes that if you drive a car carelessly you have a wreck, not an accident. I feel pretty much the same way about tools and machines.

[Aaron Inami]

That's the hardest inner voice to listen to in this situation: "I'm kinda tired, but I only have a few more cuts to go..."

I think this is one of the biggest risks of going into a wood working business and also the reason I would never do this. Work projects become deadlines and deadlines become pressure to rush.

[John Kananis]

I'm willing to bet a buck that there's far more sawstop brakes triggered every year than there are accidents on the next 3 top tablesaw manufacturers combined.

[Ronald Blue]

I'm willing to bet a buck that there's far more sawstop brakes triggered every year than there are accidents on the next 3 top tablesaw manufacturers combined.

Who cares? Sure there are false triggers. No different than a deer setting of the air bags in a vehicle. Complacency breeds accidents. I've never had an accident with either a non SawStop or my SawStop or a false activation. I still respect the blade like it wasn't there. For whatever the cause it's worth it if it saves my finger/hand or my grandkids.

[James Jayko]

I'm willing to bet a buck that there's far more sawstop brakes triggered every year than there are accidents on the next 3 top tablesaw manufacturers combined.

Even if you're right, ~3/3 SawStop triggers don't end in finger amputations. ~3/3 accidents with other saws end up in surgery, best case.

[Aaron Inami]

There are going to be a lot of "false triggers" from people running a nail into the saw blade or using electro-static material such as cutting Styrofoam. I would not necessarily say these are "false triggers" because the Sawstop system is working as designed.

[Jim Dwight]

James, I believe your story but my experience was not the same. I was doing something dumb, I was cutting the opening in a throat plate for a 3/4 wide dado stack. I use a colliflower throat plate in my PCS and the inserts are 1/4 masonite - not at all sturdy. So I put a scrap 2x3 over the throat plate to hold the insert down as I raised the dado stack. If I had used my brain and clamped the 2x3 in place it would have been fine. If I had turned the saw off before lifting the 2x3 to check progress I probably wouldn't have gotten cut. But I raised the 2x3, the stack caught it and jerked my hand into the dado stack.

I got a broken bone and 6 stitches. I don't think it was the fact that it was a PCS that made me get stupid. But it did kind of contribute. The swapover from the brake for a regular blade to the brake for a dado stack is not super quick and easy to do and it was the first time I did it. So it took me awhile, there was dust buildup around the blade brake and it did not come off easily. So I was a bit frustrated and was rushing when I finally got it swapped and was ready to cut with the dado set. Doesn't excuse my stupidity, I have used table saws for around 50 years and this was my first cut on one. I knew better. But the same brake technology that saved my finger contributed in a way to my frustration and carelessness.

Nothing is perfect or without drawbacks. I still appreciate the technology. But not all mistakes with a SawStop can be remedied with a band aide. And the brake can also be a source of frustration if you let it which can contribute to bad decisions.

[Holmes Anderson]

Why wasn't the guard in place? Not a through-cut? Most of the people I know who have been injured in TS accidents would not have been injured if they had been using the guard, splitter and anti-kickback pawls. The others were just doing dicey operations like drop cuts that couldn't be done with the safety features and they would probably have been injured with SS anyway because flesh sense doesn't stop kickback. Not saying the flesh-sensing tech doesn't add a layer of protection, but the less high-tech safety features are actually fairly effective and protect against more than just blade contact - but you have to use them.

I think most TS accidents are job site accidents with job site saws with safety features removed. You could argues that those people know what they're doing but a jobsite saw with a dull blade and wobbly fence isn't quite the same as a cabinet saw in a woodworking business.

[Rick Potter]

OK Ronald, I have to ask. How does a deer set off a car air bag? Assuming you don't run into the deer on the road.

[James Jayko]

Why wasn't the guard in place? Not a through-cut? Most of the people I know who have been injured in TS accidents would not have been injured if they had been using the guard, splitter and anti-kickback pawls.

He was using a crosscut sled with a stop block. Lots of ways to do that I guess, but with the sled you can't really use the guard.

[Ronald Blue]

James, I believe your story but my experience was not the same. I was doing something dumb, I was cutting the opening in a throat plate for a 3/4 wide dado stack. I use a colliflower throat plate in my PCS and the inserts are 1/4 masonite - not at all sturdy. So I put a scrap 2x3 over the throat plate to hold the insert down as I raised the dado stack. If I had used my brain and clamped the 2x3 in place it would have been fine. If I had turned the saw off before lifting the 2x3 to check progress I probably wouldn't have gotten cut. But I raised the 2x3, the stack caught it and jerked my hand into the dado stack.

I got a broken bone and 6 stitches. I don't think it was the fact that it was a PCS that made me get stupid. But it did kind of contribute. The swapover from the brake for a regular blade to the brake for a dado stack is not super quick and easy to do and it was the first time I did it. So it took me awhile, there was dust buildup around the blade brake and it did not come off easily. So I was a bit frustrated and was rushing when I finally got it swapped and was ready to cut with the dado set. Doesn't excuse my stupidity, I have used table saws for around 50 years and this was my first cut on one. I knew better. But the same brake technology that saved my finger contributed in a way to my frustration and carelessness.

Nothing is perfect or without drawbacks. I still appreciate the technology. But not all mistakes with a SawStop can be remedied with a band aide. And the brake can also be a source of frustration if you let it which can contribute to bad decisions.

So it saved you losing your fingers or hand. It would have been much worse with any other table saw. The aggressiveness of a dado stack and the damage it can do scares me thinking about it. Holding the throat plate in place I understand. Doing it with your hand is very dangerous. But you know that better than anyone. Hopefully others will learn from this. Maybe a bandaid doesn't fix every possible scenario but if you did this without a SawStop you would be telling a much sadder story. Hope you are healed up now.

[Aaron Inami]

Running a dado on my old cabinet saw was always a stressful experience because I know it was considerably more dangerous than a normal saw blade.

[Joel Gelman]

I think a slider with pneumatic clamps is even safer than a Saw Stop. Just my opinion. When I had a traditional Delta Cabinet saw, I remember a really bad kickback (yes there was a splitter), and thought I was so happy that missed me. That motivated me to get a slider rather than put the money into my second mortgage. With a slider and pneumatic clamps, my fingers are never within 18 inches of the blade (that has an overhead guard) and I am never standing behind the blade. Now, one can argue they are even more expensive than a SawStop and too pricey, but if you were to ask me when driving home from work in my Prius with 170k miles if I would trade my slider for a Ferrari, I would not (unless I could sell it to buy another slider and have leftover money). It would no good for me to lose fingers. No fingers, no job. I know there are dangers to woodworking, and I will not let that stop me from my hobby, but I do my best to be careful. It is interesting that I would have no problem having a drink or glass of wine and then driving (nothing to put me over the limit) but when I operate my machines, zero alcohol always. I hope to never have an "it happened so fast" experience.

[Justin Rapp]

I know a lot of people on the forum will complain that SawStops are too expensive or they should just give their tech away etc. Not starting one of those threads.

I was at a community shop yesterday and saw someone trigger the SawStop. He was doing a bunch repetitive cuts, reached over the blade, and got his finger. He had a cut, but he put a band-aid on it and was back to work in 10 minutes. This would have been a finger amputation at best on another traditional cabinet saw. The guy knows what he's doing, he just got a bit careless (it doesn't take much) and was lucky it was a SawStop.

The tech works. And most TS injuries seem to happen to people who know what they're doing and get tired/lazy/careless. Just keep it in mind!

James,

I don't think you will get the same level on nonsense responses you see on say, Facebook woodworking groups. I honestly think most people here are of a different thought process when it comes to safety. Thank you for sharing your experience and I am glad the person who had a flesh contact with the blade only needs a band-aid. I have my SawStop just under 1 1/2 years and the saw has actually made me work much safer. Since getting my sawstop, I started using more push-sticks, a gripper and also jessem stock guides. And I also even through the SawStop push stick in the garbage because I didn't like the flex it had and felt it could sleep to easy. I also didn't order a spare cartridge so I know if i set it off, i am dead in the water for a day or two. It made me work smarter and safer, not the other way around.

[Richard Coers]

A Sawstop post is the same as a political post. No greater division amongst woodworkers. I suggest that all Sawstop posts should be off limits just the same as a political statement here. I mean how many times does the argument have to start? We all know how they work and that half the woodworkers hate them and the guy that invented it. Let's drop the subject!

[Karl Loeblein]

He was using a crosscut sled with a stop block. Lots of ways to do that I guess, but with the sled you can't really use the guard.

Wonder if making a guard for the crosscut sled out of plexiglass or acrylic might have prevented this accidental trip which would have saved $150, cost of a good blade and down time to replace everything. Like the saying prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[Dave Roock]

Without arguing, a certain percentage of the population has zero business operating any power tools like a saw. When I worked for a large construction company years ago, we had people on our crews that were not allowed to operate any power tools other than a drill for fastening plates. None of the people who were not allowed to use saws even complained. The downside I see is complacency - other saws such as band saws, circular saws etc do not have those type of stops. No valid reason to get injured = always have 100% focus on the job at hand, no reason to put your fingers near any blades. Best of luck to all.

[Holmes Anderson]

He was using a crosscut sled with a stop block. Lots of ways to do that I guess, but with the sled you can't really use the guard.

Interesting. Why did he reach over the blade rather than pull the sled back toward himself?

[Keegan Shields]

haha some people must not have that "voice" in their head...

[Jim Dwight]

My finger that hit the dado stack is long since healed up. The nail grew back and the cuts closed. I am missing a small chunk so it doesn't look quite the same but most people do not notice. The feeling is pretty much back. It is fine. I agree, I would be missing at least the first digit if I had not been using a SawStop.

In addition to the safety features, my PCS is the nicest table saw I have owned, possibly the nicest I have used.

I thought that after 4+ decades without a table saw injury a SawStop was overkill for me but I'm glad I got it. Anybody that thinks it can't happen to them is fooling themselves. There may be people that can work with tools and never get a stitch but I haven't met any. It is not always a mistake by the user. Bad things can happen.

Habitually using a guard when you can is a good practice but they don't work for dado cuts, of course. Developing good habits worked for me for a long time. Until it didn't.

[Mike Henderson]

While these are minor injuries, I've shed more blood from chisels and carving tools than from powered tools - not even close.

Mike

[But my SawStop did save my finger one time.]

[John Kananis]

I second this.


A Sawstop post is the same as a political post. No greater division amongst woodworkers. I suggest that all Sawstop posts should be off limits just the same as a political statement here. I mean how many times does the argument have to start? We all know how they work and that half the woodworkers hate them and the guy that invented it. Let's drop the subject!

[Jim Becker]

The subject isn't the issue and it's not going to get forbidden because it's relevant to this forum's purpose. The issue is personal behavior. Like many things...a good path to follow is "if you don't like it, don't buy/do it". It's very much ok to have an opinion and express it thoughtfully, but it's not ok to berate someone who feels differently.

Jim
Forum Moderator

[Ronald Blue]

OK Ronald, I have to ask. How does a deer set off a car air bag? Assuming you don't run into the deer on the road.

Deer set off airbags by hitting them. Rendering a vehicle undriveable even though the rest of the damage may be minor. So not necessarily a false activation but an unneeded activation. Unfortunately the greater danger is the deer coming though the windshield because they leap at the right time. Around here white tail deer get quite large. While not common there are fatalities from the deer coming through the windshield. I worked with a guy who met this fate. No front end damage but the force of the deer through the windshield was fatal. Newer vehicles aren't as susceptible to deer activation. Apparently the crash sensors are more in tune to what an impact needing activation looks like. So it's in my opinion a false activation because there wasn't a real collision needing the protection. Much like a SawStop activation from a nail or miter gage contacting the blade rather than human flesh.

[John Lanciani]

Sounds like a blade guard might have been just as effective at preventing injury in this example.

[Patty Hann]

You know, I've watched an awful lot of YT videos --Stumpy Nubs, Wood Whisperer, Steve Ramsey Spencely(sp?), etc-- dozens of these guys and very few of them (it seems) use the guard.
There is a riving knife/splitter but no guard.

Sometimes they say they remove the guard so that the viewer can see what the person is actually doing with the cut (Like a cut with a tenon jig) but most of the time they are just showing a speeded up cut of wood for what they are making-- the object being made the real reason for the video and not the cut itself as the focus.--- And the guard is not in place.

Now I'll be the first to say:
1) I'm the novice and and really do listen to that little voice, especially when it starts haranguing me
2) those guys are not novices (and quite a few are using SawStops, btw)

So, just wondering what would be the reason for so many of them not using a guard?
What percentage here use riving knives/splitters but not a guard? (meaning, when a guard can be used)

[Richard Coers]

The subject isn't the issue and it's not going to get forbidden because it's relevant to this forum's purpose. The issue is personal behavior. Like many things...a good path to follow is "if you don't like it, don't buy/do it". It's very much ok to have an opinion and express it thoughtfully, but it's not ok to berate someone who feels differently.

Jim
Forum Moderator
It's not relevant any longer Jim. It starts out pro SawStop, then the haters come in and tell people they are incompetent or plain idiots for ever getting hurt in the first place, then the slider people chime in on how to be even safer with a saw that uses up the space of most small shops, and then finally the inventor haters finish up. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME! What part of that is still relevant after the last 15+ years? And yes, I do know it's my fault for reading yet another new Sawstop post

[Joel Gelman]

, then the slider people chime in on how to be even safer with a saw that uses up the space of most small shops,

Oops

[Kris Cook]

Not going to engage in the SS politics but will say after using a table saw for 35 years with and without a guard or splitter having the SawStop has made me more conscious about safety while using the TS in general. I will say part of the consciousness is an apprehension about setting off the brake but generally I dont think that is necessarily a bad thing.

[James Jayko]

I think you're right. They're just out of reach for 99% of people...they take up 4x the footprint of a 36" cabinet saw, and cost 10x as much.

However...have you seen the new Altendorf one with SawStop-like (actually, Bosch Reaxx like) technology? That thing looks amazing, but is $Texas.

[James Jayko]

Interesting. Why did he reach over the blade rather than pull the sled back toward himself?

Like many people, he was being sloppy / lazy / tired doing a lot of repetitive cuts. He was being dumb and 100% acknowledged that it was a STUPID thing to do.

[James Jayko]

Without arguing, a certain percentage of the population has zero business operating any power tools like a saw. When I worked for a large construction company years ago, we had people on our crews that were not allowed to operate any power tools other than a drill for fastening plates. None of the people who were not allowed to use saws even complained. The downside I see is complacency - other saws such as band saws, circular saws etc do not have those type of stops. No valid reason to get injured = always have 100% focus on the job at hand, no reason to put your fingers near any blades. Best of luck to all.

You'll get no arguments from me on this point. I see it in this shared shop all the time...people don't even know they're being stupid.

[James Jayko]

Not going to engage in the SS politics but will say after using a table saw for 35 years with and without a guard or splitter having the SawStop has made me more conscious about safety while using the TS in general. I will say part of the consciousness is an apprehension about setting off the brake but generally I dont think that is necessarily a bad thing.

That has been my experience as well. Part of it was writing the check for the saw..."I'm paying 3x so this thing will not cut my finger off. This is a dangerous piece of equipment, be careful dummy!" But like everything, YMMV.

[Jim Dwight]

I'm way too cheap to not be concerned about tripping the brake on my PCS. I don't want to get hurt but I also do not want to waste a saw blade and have to buy another cartridge. I do not think overconfidence based upon the technology played any role in my accident. I made a bad decision. I did not think through the potential consequences of what I was doing.

I still haven't replaced the dado blade. The few times I've needed a dado joint since I destroyed my blade set I've just used my router or made multiple cuts with my normal sawblade. I have a little base jig that lets it be guided by my tracksaw track and it is a safer way to make the joint involving less setup time. I do not believe my SawStop is incapable of cutting dados, but I think having to swap cartridges PLUS set up the dado set tips the scales towards cutting them another way. At least for me. I'll run into a project that calls for a lot of dados eventually and get another blade set but so far the router is OK.

[Thomas Pender]

Agree. Last thing I want to do, other than being injured, is to pay for a new SS cartridge and expensive blade. Kind of ironic.

[Marc Fenneuff]

It's not relevant any longer Jim. It starts out pro SawStop, then the haters come in and tell people they are incompetent or plain idiots for ever getting hurt in the first place, then the slider people chime in on how to be even safer with a saw that uses up the space of most small shops, and then finally the inventor haters finish up. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME! What part of that is still relevant after the last 15+ years? And yes, I do know it's my fault for reading yet another new Sawstop post

This x1000. Well said.

[Tom M King]

I take exception to this part quoted from the first post: " And most TS injuries seem to happen to people who know what they're doing and get tired/lazy/careless." While I agree with the part about continuing to work past being tired, if they got hurt, they did not "know what they're doing".

I've used table saws for over 50 years. I've never used one with any kind of safety device on it, nor do I know anyone else personally who has. They, nor I, have never come close to being knicked by the saw. Fingers never get close to, close beside, or certainly not over or behind the blade-Never for any reason.

I almost never crosscut on a tablesaw.

I'm not saying I recommend this to anyone else. Just don't do something stupid. Quit when you get tired or are not clear headed for any reason. I have never watched a youtube video of anyone doing woodworking, so can make no comment on what anyone else does or says.

I don't mind the Sawstop technology, but I won't be buying one. If I felt like I needed it, I would quit using a table saw.

[Richard Coers]

I almost cut off the top 3/4" off the end of my middle finger on my left hand in 1984. Sawed 2/3 of the way through the bone and knuckle. Believe me a new blade and cartridge is way cheaper than two surgeries, the pain of 2 recoveries, and a lifetime of not having a knuckle on one finger. At least that finger has stopped being a weather predictor. For a decade it told me every time the barometer dropped, or when the temp went below freezing! I just saw the stainless steel pins they used to toe nail the tip of my finger back on the other day in my desk. Talk about PTSD

[James Jayko]

I take exception to this part quoted from the first post: " And most TS injuries seem to happen to people who know what they're doing and get tired/lazy/careless." While I agree with the part about continuing to work past being tired, if they got hurt, they did not "know what they're doing".

"Individuals injured while using a table saw can be grouped into 3 broad categories. The first two are occupational and non-occupational injuries, both of which are overwhelmingly male. The percentage of injuries sustained at work ranges from 31% to 46%."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154236/

Maybe 'most' is a misstatement. But between 1/3 and nearly half of table saw accidents happen to professionals on the job. Perhaps they don't have the expertise or luck that you have, but its hard to say that all of the professionals who use a table saw at work and have an accident are unaware of the dangers and proper techniques to avoid injury.

[Michael Burnside]

It's not relevant any longer Jim. It starts out pro SawStop, then the haters come in and tell people they are incompetent or plain idiots for ever getting hurt in the first place, then the slider people chime in on how to be even safer with a saw that uses up the space of most small shops, and then finally the inventor haters finish up. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME! What part of that is still relevant after the last 15+ years? And yes, I do know it's my fault for reading yet another new Sawstop post

I personally like these stories. I like to understand how an injury could have been prevented just before the SawStop technology kicked in. Personally I've read of a couple of stories like this that made me think, hmm, perhaps the tablesaw is not the proper tool for this task if that could happen. Or, have I done that before and could that have been me? What could be done to make it safer?

I ignore the politics. People that suggest qualified/experts don't get hurt are the idiots, not the rest of us that do when an accident happens. For the crowd that suggests folks that chose not to buy or can't afford the tech feel like they don't value their safety. They're no better.

[Tom M King]

I can't say, but "professional" and "knowing what they are doing" are not necessarily the same thing, or even caring what they are doing. I don't think it's that unusual that almost half don't really care about what they're doing, but are there to get a paycheck, and have their mind on something else. None of those have even lasted a day on any of my jobsites, and that was long before they were allowed to use a power tool.

Way back when I was hiring older, very experienced carpenters, I had to threaten to let them go to get them to use a guard on a jointer. They wanted to argue then, but finally gave in when they realized I wasn't going to budge.

[Carl Beckett]

I love sawstop threads.....

I wonder how many accidents on REGULAR tablesaws have been prevented because some little voice in the back of the head causes the operator to slow down or second guess - 'just to prove Sawstop fans wrong'....

??

[Dave Roock]

I can't say, but "professional" and "knowing what they are doing" are not necessarily the same thing, or even caring what they are doing. I don't think it's that unusual that almost half don't really care about what they're doing, but are there to get a paycheck, and have their mind on something else. None of those have even lasted a day on any of my jobsites, and that was long before they were allowed to use a power tool.

Way back when I was hiring older, very experienced carpenters, I had to threaten to let them go to get them to use a guard on a jointer. They wanted to argue then, but finally gave in when they realized I wasn't going to budge.

Agreed ! The only woodworking accident I ever have had was in a 8th grade woodshop class. I was making a cutting board for my Mother & running sections on the jointer. Lesson learned - I let the middle finger on my right hand dip down too low and it jointed a section of the end of my finger off. Not much pain, happened so quick with a very clean cut ( sharp knife lol) Have made sure fingers are in no danger of being chopped ever since. Reinforced when I started a construction/carpentry job. Foreman explained very thoroughly how to operate a saw(s) & how to always keep you fingers away. Told me how the cut I would be doing would not take very long and to concentrate 100% during the very quick cut. When I did some work on the shingle roofing crew ( big apartment buildings), idiots were using Porter Cable/Milwaukee Circular Saws with a chunk of wood jammed into the safety guard to "keep it out of the way". I helped put an end to that when I ripped the chunk of wood out and threw it off the roof. Showed a couple idiots how they could cut just fine with the guard in place. Not all "experienced" workers are safe that is for certain.

[Jacques Gagnon]

I think you're right. They're just out of reach for 99% of people...they take up 4x the footprint of a 36" cabinet saw, and cost 10x .

…for the record, my short stroke slider (79 inches or so) has a smaller footprint than my old cabinet saw in terms of width. A slider with a shorter carriage would bring the overall depth/length to that of a cabinet saw.

In terms of cost the entry level machines from either Felder or SCM are within a couple of thousands when compared to the Sawstop, possibly even less than that.

[Dave Roock]

…for the record, my short stroke slider (79 inches or so) has a smaller footprint than my old cabinet saw in terms of width. A slider with a shorter carriage would bring the overall depth/length to that of a cabinet saw.

In terms of cost the entry level machines from either Felder or SCM are within a couple of thousands when compared to the Sawstop, possibly even less than that.
Absolutely correct. A Felder slider like the Hammer series would be a far better machine. I have been using my Sawtrax #1052 - will be writing a review on that. Most people who I have seen criticizing a Panel Saw like that have never actually used one with a proper blade. When some experienced carpenter/woodworking friends saw how good the cuts were from that they were surprised. Great for breaking down sheet goods. Fingers never near blade.

[Jim Becker]

Relative to Dave's comment, the footprint of a typical short stroke slider from Felder/Hammer or SCM/Minimax with the outrigger removed (quick and easy for both brands) is about the same a a typical North American cabinet saw with a ~50" fence system. I have owned both and know that for a fact. (slider in my shop) I'm just mentioning this for reference because there are lots of choices available to folks for table saws and there are many who don't realize that a typical short stroke slider isn't a behemoth like a really big panel saw one might see in a larger cabinet shop.

[Carl Beckett]

I am curious what price ranges people are thinking when discussing the various purchase options. I personally got to my current slider over the years with a series of upgrades. AND, experienced a TS accident which sent me to the ER (a sawstop would not have prevented ... and perhaps neither would have a slider). But I know for a fact I did not have the funds to jump into a slider from the start - which means suggestions to do so would have been of limited value)

Portable direct drive saws: $XX
Circ saws as a solution: $XX
Contractor saws: $XX
Traditional cabinet saws: $XX
Sawstop: $XX
Sliders: $XX

I purchased a combination of new/used. Used sliders are not as plentiful as used traditional cabinet saws. But used Sawstops still sell at a premium in my area. A new cabinet saw (powermatic) may not be that much less than a new Sawstop - but could be considerably less than a new slider.

All technical problems have an economic component...

[Keegan Shields]

My used Grizzly G0623X was $3K in 2021. I was considering a SS but this popped up on CL 3 miles away and I'm glad I went with it.

[John LoDico]

I don't think this is entirely off topic since we're discussing safety mechanisms AND sliders, but this new safety mechanism from Altendorf looks like the first real competitor to the Saw Stop technology. It's towards the end of the video from the "Manor Wood" You Tuber (who has "great kit" as they say in Great Britain!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfbuCe_T2CM

[Jacques Gagnon]

The system used by Altendorf is only available on « top of the line » machines that are usually beyond reach for hobbyists like me. Felder also developed a non-destructive system (called PCS) a few years ago that can be installed on high end units. The price tag for units equipped with these safety systems is substantial. Sawstop has found an approach that is within reach for the hobbyist clientele.

[Warren Lake]

On the Altendorf interesting idea there that they have a mid position for the cross cut fence. On the small SCM slider ive cut solid material in front of the fence in the front position and it worked well. Figured id modify it to take a bit wider. Not sure two more locating pins could be added into this fence in the middle but its a thought. I watched him ripping conventional on another you tube and still a thing id have no interest in standing sideways stretched out uncomfortable. A number of the small sliders dont have a large carriage in the way so can rip on the fence. Thanks for posting that you tube and nice to see the history and original saws.

[Alan Lightstone]

That Altendorf safety system is interesting as it appears to activate when the hand is in line with the blade, but actually nowhere near it. I wonder how it does that.

I look fondly on all the slider posts, but I have a large 2nd workbench/assembly table to the left of my Sawstop ICS. I don't know how I could have a slider and still keep that. No way I would want to be constantly removing the slider mechanism and moving the table often. Way too big/heavy. Am I missing something?

[Warren Lake]

had the SCM on and off several times but id have no interest in making a habit of it. It has some weight to it and im fine but its an older bearing style and even the on and off puts some stress on the bearings as set up so id rather not do it.

Does take up room and well more than a cabinet saw but its a better saw in several other ways

[Randy Heinemann]

I have a Sawstop Jobsite saw and I have never been sorry I bought Sawstop. There are other jobsite saws available that are much cheaper and likely even as accurate. However, the first time I triggered the brake (not even on my hand but an aluminum fence) I was extremely glad I had a Sawstop. It reminded me how quickly and easily unintended things can happen, no matter how safe you feel you are or the setup is. It's just that extra level of safety that prevents a potentially unrecoverable accident which results from a mistake. So, it's worth it to me.

[Bernie Kopfer]

First off, I think sawstop is a great product. That said, I also feel people take chances they really shouldn't because the saw is "safe". So some of those triggers should be attributed to user carelessness imho.
I have found it interesting that in my experience using a Sawstop has caused me to be much more careful. Because a trigger is a hundred dollar brake and a hundred plus blade. Call me cheap but that kinda money wasted is a deterrent to me being cavalier around the spinning blade

[John Kananis]

I kind of understand what you're saying but don't at the same time. Why would you be more careful to save a hundred bucks over saving your finger? Is kind of the same argument ss salesmen use when you tell them you need to think about it. Can't have it both ways imho.


I have found it interesting that in my experience using a Sawstop has caused me to be much more careful. Because a trigger is a hundred dollar brake and a hundred plus blade. Call me cheap but that kinda money wasted is a deterrent to me being cavalier around the spinning blade

[Patrick Varley]

Not to be redundant, as I think people have mentioned it, but I do think that an ideal situation for a SawStop is any time where you don't have as much direct control (e.g. minute-to-minute) over how others may be using the saw. Definitely true that an individual can make their own choice, and know how to be careful. But as soon as you start adding other people into the mix, it's a wildcard. Whether the SawStop protects me is perhaps debatable. But I know for sure that it could "protect" me from having to deal with the consequences related to the carelessness of others.