Window Sash shaper cutter

[John Pendery]

I recently swapped out shapers and am retooling. Have a window job coming up and am curious what others are happy with. Window sash thickness is right at 1 11/16” or 43mm, and I need to get as close as possible to that thickness as the building is in a historic overlay (profile is ogee). Shaper has 1 1/4” bore. Looking for suggestions on good quality options. Thanks for any feedback.

[William Hodge]

Match the existing with corrugated back cutters in a Scmidt molding head. CT Saw & Tool

[Kevin Jenness]

+1 on corrugated back cutters for an exact profile match with traditional mortise/tenon joinery. Tenoning/coping can be done using the Schmidt coping discs (p. 30 in the catalog). https://cggschmidt.com/3d-flip-book/schmidt-catalog/ Maybe this set would work for you. https://cggschmidt.com/proddetail.php?prod=WC230

[John Pendery]

Thanks guys. I was just looking at that exact set, Kevin. I agree an exact profile match would be ideal, but I’m not sure it’s in the cards on this one due to a somewhat tight timeline. When I met with the contractor and architect they assured me there was a bit of leeway on exact profile matching, as these are fixed windows isolated from the rest of the double hung windows in the building. Just need to make an effort to get it close.

[brent stanley]

Hi John, how close are these to what you're after? These are stock knives, though many other geometries are available too.

https://www.whitehill-tools.com/profile-cutters/lambs-tongue/

Cope cutters to match are available too. Youd need two sets of knives to do the job and a head for them to go in, but that would cost about 1/4 of the set above and you'd have a modern euro head that could be used for a million other things down the line. Glazing bar cutters are available for some too as stock, though others could be custom ground too. Theyre now shipping FedEx and some stuff is arriving in the US in two days!!! Best to count on a few more but it has happened. Reach out if you want some details, I'm here to help. Attached is a pic of glazing bar example.

Brent

[John Pendery]

Hi Brent, thanks for the suggestion. I have a profile cutter head, but it’s designed for 1.5” cutters. That glazing bar profile is actually a very close match. I’m trying to reduce my set up time as much as possible and cut profiles in one pass whenever possible as opposed as to making multiple passes with frequent cutter changes. I’ll take a look at the link you provided and am always open to suggestions. Thanks!

[brent stanley]

Hi Brent, thanks for the suggestion. I have a profile cutter head, but it’s designed for 1.5” cutters. That glazing bar profile is actually a very close match. I’m trying to reduce my set up time as much as possible and cut profiles in one pass whenever possible as opposed as to making multiple passes with frequent cutter changes. I’ll take a look at the link you provided and am always open to suggestions. Thanks!


The approach Whitehill uses for a lot of simpler window profiles is to stack a cheap, very common "euroblock" type head with a 125mm rebate block (also one of the most common blocks used as you know) to allow you to machine profile and rebare in one pass with good repeatability and consistency. So what you'd do is find the profile you want, install the knives in a 96x55mm block, set the block on the machine, install a 125mm rebate block on top and away you go for sticking.

Depending on what you wanted for tenon length you'd install the matching cope cutters in the same block or another one for longer tenons and cope away. Here is the link to the catalogue page that describes the system. Dead simple, cost effective because after youre tooled up you're not buying blocks, just knives and very easy to be repeat accurately.

https://whitehill.tools/catalogue/index.html#page=26

[John Pendery]

I hear you Brent. I was going down the path of specific dedicated tooling, but your suggestion is definitely the more cost effective approach. For simple sashes like I’m replicating I think I’ll take your approach. Thanks

[brent stanley]

Hi John, here are a few action shots from a couple of different window types:

This is the profile under the rebate block on the spindle. In this instance I'm using a fancy rebate block that is Z4 dual shear that also includes the option for machining drip grooves, seal/gasket grooves, special grooves for euro open/close hardware etc.

495713


That's a coped bar end for a mid/stub tenon.
495714

Thats a batch of longer ones where they meet the frame. Only doing one side at a time then, but now would do both coped side and square on the same pass.

495715

[brent stanley]

I think these two pics are of one of the profiles from a couple of posts above....that one with glazing bars and cope on one knife. These are big simple windows for an uninsulated building. These are just friction fit, they aren't clamped, pegged or glued up yet in these pics:

495717

495718

I'm in the shop today if you want any detailed pictures or have any questions I'm here to help, fire away!

B

[brent stanley]

John, regarding the rebate block, the good news is you have options, the bad news is you have to decide! Stacking the 96x55 with a standard rebate (either Z2 or Z4 dual shear....I suggest the latter) is easy but coping with the 96x55 is limiting because the diameter is small and you'll probably only get a 1.75" tenon, I'd have to check. The adjustable rebate gives you a more useful block on the rebate side of things, but doesn't change your coping limitations.

Changing your pure rebate block to a 125x55 combi block gives you a Z2, shear cut rebate block and a larger diameter block for your cope cutters to go in that gives you greater reach for longer tenons. It also lets you run the thicker steel giving you a huge number of profile options. There is a 3mm flange on the bottom of the large combi that means you don't have to use the 3mm spacer as you would with a normal rebate block.

Stacking the two heads obviously has many advantages but you're not necessarily stuck with the geometry as defined by the relative diameters of the two blocks (that is to say rebate/rabbit depth) because you could of course run them separately if for some reason you absolutely had to have a rebate depth different than that provided by stacking, or Whitehill could just grind a set of profile knives for you that provided the rabbit depth you wanted and Bobs your uncle.

[John Pendery]

Thanks for all the input, Brent, I appreciate it! I have a 125x52 shear rabbeting cutter along with a profile cutter that I can actually make the sashes for this particular job with, but it would require two passes. Windows come my way fairly frequently so trying to slowly acquire tooling for most efficient setup and cut quality that doesn’t require any sanding or touch up. I try to take jobs that will pay for the tooling upgrades when possible. I’ll look into your suggestions and thanks for the photos for reference. I’ll let you know which route I take.

[brent stanley]

Thanks for all the input, Brent, I appreciate it! I have a 125x52 shear rabbeting cutter along with a profile cutter that I can actually make the sashes for this particular job with, but it would require two passes. Windows come my way fairly frequently so trying to slowly acquire tooling for most efficient setup and cut quality that doesn’t require any sanding or touch up. I try to take jobs that will pay for the tooling upgrades when possible. I’ll look into your suggestions and thanks for the photos for reference. I’ll let you know which route I take.

Reach out if you have any more questions as you ponder. The Whitehill profile knives are ground anticipating a specific cutter head geometry so may or may not be seamless with what you have. I can get some measurements of mine for you to help confirm.

[Joe Calhoon]

John,
It depends on how much you plan to use the tooling, how fussy the customer is about matching historical details and if insulated glazing is used. IG plays hell with historical details! For efficiency and high quality edge finishes in building sash it is hard to beat insert tooling set up for slot and tenon construction. I have a Zuani set that will do single tenon in 1 3/8” to 1 3/4” plus or minus and double tenon in the 2 1/4” thickness. This set is made for insulated glass in the 1 3/4” and up range with weep slots and wet glazing provision. I have a simple slant profile outside and just use stop bead profile inside to match whatever is historically correct on the inside. Usually an ogee profile here.

The slant profile outside looks similar to putty glazing. Some east coast and UK shops will have these cutters made to match the shape of putty glazing since it is a bad idea to use putty with IG.

I used this set recently for a historic job in New Mexico where the original building was added onto in 3 different time periods. The windows all had different or no divided lights, the customer wanted to keep that original look but use IG and make them energy efficient as possible.
495772
same tooling used in a Alpine workshop for a weight and chain balance window.
495773
I do not make much replacement sash or single pane putty glaze but to match historical profiles I have a corrugated knife made for the profile and haunch the stiles either on the shaper with a router bit or the sliding saw with a shaper cutter. Then just do a square edge mortise and tenon without worrying about coping for the profile. This is fairly labor intensive but OK for just a few sash. I know a lot of east coast shops are happy with the Schmidt tooling for this but I have no experience with those cutters.
495774
495776
495777
495778

[John Pendery]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for your input! Your first sentence sums it up, and the answer is it varies on all fronts. In the past my primary work has been custom casework and cabinetry, but more and more door and window work is coming my way and I really enjoy it. I hope to grow into more millwork, and I hope to better my techniques and tooling, which is one reason why I’ll be heading out your way in October.
The balance between historic detail preservation and energy efficiency varies quite a bit in my experience depending on the historic preservation committee, architect, or client. In my local county the historic folks are so hellbent on historic preservation that energy efficiency suffers dramatically.
This particular job is pretty straightforward and has a little leeway on details, but will involve insulated glazing. This job along with my shaper swap out prompted my initial question, but I am more curious about what tooling others are using and happy with. I ordered a handful of cutters from rangate to get off the ground and am very pleased with the quality of the tooling and super clean cut quality, but not sure I can justify the window set they sell just yet.
I’ve been using my T17 for similar operations as I’ve been limping along on the shaper front. I wish mine looked as good as yours! Thanks for all the photos and detailed explanations, they are very helpful. Where do you source your Zuani tooling?

[brent stanley]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for your input! Your first sentence sums it up, and the answer is it varies on all fronts. In the past my primary work has been custom casework and cabinetry, but more and more door and window work is coming my way and I really enjoy it. I hope to grow into more millwork, and I hope to better my techniques and tooling, which is one reason why I’ll be heading out your way in October.
The balance between historic detail preservation and energy efficiency varies quite a bit in my experience depending on the historic preservation committee, architect, or client. In my local county the historic folks are so hellbent on historic preservation that energy efficiency suffers dramatically.
This particular job is pretty straightforward and has a little leeway on details, but will involve insulated glazing. This job along with my shaper swap out prompted my initial question, but I am more curious about what tooling others are using and happy with. I ordered a handful of cutters from rangate to get off the ground and am very pleased with the quality of the tooling and super clean cut quality, but not sure I can justify the window set they sell just yet.
I’ve been using my T17 for similar operations as I’ve been limping along on the shaper front. I wish mine looked as good as yours! Thanks for all the photos and detailed explanations, they are very helpful. Where do you source your Zuani tooling?


Sorry John, I must have missed where you said it was IG, that changes some of the specifics around it but not the big picture necessarily.

You sound like a chap not far from me that lives in an old town where the historic preservation society is quite controlling and has high demands if the builder. So for him flexibility is key, BUT outside of town he sells a lot of high end, high performance windows. So he has one of Whitehill's passivehaus-grade solutions for triple IGUs with multi ply comb joints at the corners, multiple layers and types of gasketing and seals etc. These are beautiful, high performing units with many hardware options run on big Panhans CNC spindles, but for work in the area covered by the historical society, he's required to do single glaze systems ( sometimes with putty, sometimes not) that are rarely exactly the same so he needs tooling solutions where he is in 100% control of everything, and doesn't have the tooling determine his window, but rather him determining his window. In these situations he uses the solution I describe above to achieve the same quality in terms of surface finish but for smaller runs.

These are the two extremes really but illustrate the tradeoffs between flexibility, historical "accuracy", efficiency (build efficiency and final product energy efficincy too!), tradition etc. There are solutions half way between these of course too but when you're just getting going, the best tool you can have is a crystal ball to know exactly what you will be doing a lot of in the future to justify an expense! Tooling investments are hard on the head when they sit on the shelf gathering dust. If I find my crystal ball I'll let you borrow it! :)

Good luck and have fun,

B

[John Pendery]

Sorry John, I must have missed where you said it was IG, that changes some of the specifics around it but not the big picture necessarily.

You sound like a chap not far from me that lives in an old town where the historic preservation society is quite controlling and has high demands if the builder. So for him flexibility is key, BUT outside of town he sells a lot of high end, high performance windows. So he has one of Whitehill's passivehaus-grade solutions for triple IGUs with multi ply comb joints at the corners, multiple layers and types of gasketing and seals etc. These are beautiful, high performing units with many hardware options run on big Panhans CNC spindles, but for work in the area covered by the historical society, he's required to do single glaze systems ( sometimes with putty, sometimes not) that are rarely exactly the same so he needs tooling solutions where he is in 100% control of everything, and doesn't have the tooling determine his window, but rather him determining his window. In these situations he uses the solution I describe above to achieve the same quality in terms of surface finish but for smaller runs.

These are the two extremes really but illustrate the tradeoffs between flexibility, historical "accuracy", efficiency (build efficiency and final product energy efficincy too!), tradition etc. There are solutions half way between these of course too but when you're just getting going, the best tool you can have is a crystal ball to know exactly what you will be doing a lot of in the future to justify an expense! Tooling investments are hard on the head when they sit on the shelf gathering dust. If I find my crystal ball I'll let you borrow it! :)

Good luck and have fun,

B


Hi Brent,
I apologize I wasn’t clear in my original post. I find all the responses useful and interesting, and I appreciate your input. I probably shouldn’t have even used the current window job as a framework for my question on what window tooling others are using. I recently made the move to a more capable and powerful shaper than my old machines and I like to see what others are using in their shops. In all things there are many ways to accomplish a given task well, but in woodworking the number seems to grow exponentially!

[brent stanley]

Hi Brent,
I apologize I wasn’t clear in my original post. I find all the responses useful and interesting, and I appreciate your input. I probably shouldn’t have even used the current window job as a framework for my question on what window tooling others are using. I recently made the move to a more capable and powerful shaper than my old machines and I like to see what others are using in their shops. In all things there are many ways to accomplish a given task well, but in woodworking the number seems to grow exponentially!

Haha, I've always said there is no finer example of "more than one way" than woodworking! The bigger shaper is really going to open doors for you. I have a couple of big beasts and a medium sized shaper with a very small footprint that is very fast and easy to work around but of limited capability. It's nice to have a few but I'd still like one more!

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Joe,
Thanks for your input! Your first sentence sums it up, and the answer is it varies on all fronts. In the past my primary work has been custom casework and cabinetry, but more and more door and window work is coming my way and I really enjoy it. I hope to grow into more millwork, and I hope to better my techniques and tooling, which is one reason why I’ll be heading out your way in October.
The balance between historic detail preservation and energy efficiency varies quite a bit in my experience depending on the historic preservation committee, architect, or client. In my local county the historic folks are so hellbent on historic preservation that energy efficiency suffers dramatically.
This particular job is pretty straightforward and has a little leeway on details, but will involve insulated glazing. This job along with my shaper swap out prompted my initial question, but I am more curious about what tooling others are using and happy with. I ordered a handful of cutters from rangate to get off the ground and am very pleased with the quality of the tooling and super clean cut quality, but not sure I can justify the window set they sell just yet.
I’ve been using my T17 for similar operations as I’ve been limping along on the shaper front. I wish mine looked as good as yours! Thanks for all the photos and detailed explanations, they are very helpful. Where do you source your Zuani tooling?

John, my best advice for insert tools to build doors and windows is to proceed very carefully and slowly. A lot of factors involved to consider and what machines you have now and where you might go in the future. Employees setting up machines, tenon or dowel or both, wet glazing or dry. This just touches on it.
Insert tools for general joinery are a no brainer for the pro shop. Rebate heads, adjustable groovers, Multiuse cutters etc. but door and window cutters require a lot more planning.

My inset door and window tools are older Garniga, and Zuani. Zuani merged with Record a few years ago now called TWT and sold by Rangate.
looking forward to see you in October. I have many different types of tooling to demo. Including HSS limiter cutters from Whitehill and Leitz.

[John Pendery]

John, my best advice for insert tools to build doors and windows is to proceed very carefully and slowly. A lot of factors involved to consider and what machines you have now and where you might go in the future. Employees setting up machines, tenon or dowel or both, wet glazing or dry. This just touches on it.
Insert tools for general joinery are a no brainer for the pro shop. Rebate heads, adjustable groovers, Multiuse cutters etc. but door and window cutters require a lot more planning.

My inset door and window tools are older Garniga, and Zuani. Zuani merged with Record a few years ago now called TWT and sold by Rangate.
looking forward to see you in October. I have many different types of tooling to demo. Including HSS limiter cutters from Whitehill and Leitz.


Hi Joe, I appreciate the advice. When I changed shapers I purchases the cutters I use most from Rangate, which are TWT and I am very pleased with them and they seem to offer quite a lot of flexibility. I’ll be curious to see what you use and how your shop is set up. I’m in no rush so I will take my time on the highly specialized tooling. Thanks

[John Pendery]

Haha, I've always said there is no finer example of "more than one way" than woodworking! The bigger shaper is really going to open doors for you. I have a couple of big beasts and a medium sized shaper with a very small footprint that is very fast and easy to work around but of limited capability. It's nice to have a few but I'd still like one more!

Yes I sure hope it does and I know what you mean! I have to stop myself from rearranging the shop constantly in order to squeeze more machines in!

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have nothing of technical value to add, but wanted to note that I love being a fly on the wall of threads like this and most shaper threads. I do a little bit of custom door work here and there but not to the degree that I need specialized cutters like Joe or others use and no window work, but I think I would really enjoy it if that type of work ever came my way.

The shaper and it’s possible tooling and setups might have more depth of potential / knowledge than any other machine in the woodshop and it always fascinates me to read about all the different ways everyone puts them to work.

[brent stanley]

I have nothing of technical value to add, but wanted to note that I love being a fly on the wall of threads like this and most shaper threads. I do a little bit of custom door work here and there but not to the degree that I need specialized cutters like Joe or others use and no window work, but I think I would really enjoy it if that type of work ever came my way.

The shaper and it’s possible tooling and setups might have more depth of potential / knowledge than any other machine in the woodshop and it always fascinates me to read about all the different ways everyone puts them to work.

It's really good to have options that will all give top tier results (in good hands) but very different price points in exchange for some compromises. Where you go is typically a shop by shop decision.

Speaking of options, I have some vacuum glazing on the way for a job and I'm excited to try it. Permits thinner sections (6mm thick range) with performance in the range of much thicker double glazed units. There is a vacuum port plug to hide and little dots that are visible in some light angles but it will be an option for folks wanting thinner sections and a more authentic look but again with tradeoffs. I'm excited to get them in my hands.

[John Pendery]

It's really good to have options that will all give top tier results (in good hands) but very different price points in exchange for some compromises. Where you go is typically a shop by shop decision.

Speaking of options, I have some vacuum glazing on the way for a job and I'm excited to try it. Permits thinner sections (6mm thick range) with performance in the range of much thicker double glazed units. There is a vacuum port plug to hide and little dots that are visible in some light angles but it will be an option for folks wanting thinner sections and a more authentic look but again with tradeoffs. I'm excited to get them in my hands.


Sounds interesting Brent. Do you mind posting pictures when you complete the job?

[brent stanley]

Sounds interesting Brent. Do you mind posting pictures when you complete the job?

I will, but I'm in a long line after other contractors that need to do their thing, so might not happen for a year, but I will certainly post pics of the product maybe in a mock up.

[brent stanley]

Sounds interesting Brent. Do you mind posting pictures when you complete the job?

Hi John, here is a sample I got for consideration. Haven't played with it much, but it's really neat stuff! The dots are actually less visible in real life than the camera makes them seem.

496451