Tire options for Felder 640 bandsaw

[Jonathan Jung]

What options do I have for tires for my Felder bandsaw? I'm getting excessive flutter and vibration from my Felder FB 640. It's about 20 years old, has flat rubber tires (not crowned). Felder wants $95+ shipping for EACH tire. What's so special about them? Can I scrape or sand them smooth and round again? Does a better priced option exist? I have Sulpher Grove Tools urethane tires on other machines and really like them. Would they work?

[Phillip Mitchell]

I put Carter branded flat/not crowned rubber tires on my older 20” Italian saw and it was a fine experience, aside from having to remove all the existing tire adhesive crud prior to mounting new tires.

I called and talked to their tech support more than once in the process and they were very helpful and knowledgeable.

[Tom Trees]

You can dress them, I've documented this on youtube.
Those tires are worth keeping IMO.

Have a look at this test, IMO is the last word regarding alignment.
I've got some time now to explain a bit better, though I'm still experimenting with things.
A well fitting pencil is needed for getting a clear line,
and no bumps, lumps, spatter, or creases on the tape.
Have yet to do some comparisons regarding length, for the wheels that is.
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Getting the wheels closely aligned.
You can use the beam and rule to get around ballpark, but not the length below, (I spent yesterday comparing)
I've found a little stick much better, why one may ask...
Well I've found one will get various measurements with the awkward heavy length, and can influence the top wheels tilt,
whilst the wee stick is more nimble for tight spots like guidepost,
but doesn't need the same force applied. less likely to move or be dropped both of which are a right PITa.
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I've documented this on youtube also, and meaning to do a part 3, which will demonstrate below.
Pleased to mention, the wee stick is just as good without being taped on.


Moving onto the alignment test.
Bottom wheel jacking is adjusted so one can choose where the blade will go on both wheels, with only the tracking adjustment needed from the top.
Moving the north/south has proved to give variable results, so I stopped doing this.
One can prove this to some extent, by noticing it may well be the case where it's not possible to completely unscrew jacking screws/bolts due to thread damage on the ends,
Combined with the four not being extremely accurate, you've got a case of guesswork to some extent.

Blade is riding with teeth off the bottom edge, and as close to the edge (hand tracked quite a bit to ensure placement) on the top, without the teeth scuffing the short length.
The idea being the top wheel needs to have maximum pressure applied to the front in order not to tilt whilst doing the marking.
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Here's a random length of timber which seems to be the perfect length, and thickness (just about) to clear the guide cover and door interlock switch bracket.
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Same length used for the bottom wheel.
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Some rough lines, Note get some masking tape which you can actually draw on.
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The motor pulley alignment..
Here's a different length which seems the right size.
Motor needs to be adjusted as low as possible for balance, and the length of pencil is needing to be longer, or you'll break the lead.
Could be better balance, some give to it, or being conscious since you can see it. or all three.
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Turning the pulley will move the line
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Been doing some documenting on this on the Ozzy bandsaw forum, which I must update fairly soon.

Tom

[Tom Trees]

The ideal length of pencil shown
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I've repeated most of this a few times, just double checking and all that,
as I want my adjustable plate for the flange mount motor to be aligned.
So with some supplies got today, I can get it perfect, should I find the right shim.
This stainless is too thick it seems, but want to be sure about it.
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Tom

[john hejmanowski]

I recently dressed and trued the wheels on my Felder 540 using a square block with sandpaper attached. I turned the wheels by hand, not brave or foolhardy enough to turn the motor on. So it takes a while and a couple of beers, but the vibration was greatly reduced and now passes the nickle test.

Actually, I replaced the tires first thinking that would solve the vibration problem. However, there was enough glue height inconsistency that caused the new tires to be out-of-round and thus causing vibrations. So I then had to true the tires. Vibrations gone. Yeah, I should have trued the tires first before replacing them.

[Tom Trees]

You can scrape them with a parallel in width plane iron either,
Just make sure you know where the wheel is in relation to the plane iron, as it's near impossible to detect a tapered flat. (whilst on the machine that is)
Rebated block 100% necessary, unless you like unintentional cambers, or infact if you wished to make one intentionally for say damage,
I got a good scolding from the Italian bandsaw purists for doing such, and rightly so! :)
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https://i.postimg.cc/s2GgV6RX/Lower-wheel-dressing.jpg


Though cambering the tires did conceal issues, alas it was only for a short period.
That's a recipe for damaged bearing races, worn spacers, or worst of all wheel bore wear, though perhaps the latter seemingly more so with less forgiving rigid arrangements.
Blade set compression is also worth mentioning I suppose, but admittedly my top wheel didn't have such a pronounced camber,
so that could be some factor into my blade issues.

It's debatable which to do first I'd reckon :)
Possibly all best done twice for good measure.

Bit of masking tape and a bit of ply to slip on yer clamp head to protect the paintwork, no burr rolled on the plane iron, just honed at 90,
and the lip/bend in the chassis provides support for the block, and a fulcrum of sorts.
If doing cambered profile like below, then a ply board to protect from falling things is an absolute must, might be a good idea anyways.

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I will likely revisit this, as wheel depth and tire edge line experiments will probably be of interest.
Didn't achieve anything by doing below, nor to a lesser extent with the top wheel, which didn't get a totally hard edge, so it's something to speculate yet.
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https://i.postimg.cc/8zPFVm5J/SAM-5086.jpg

Be interesting to know how you get on.
All the best

Tom

[Tom Trees]

Just in case anyone's keeping up with my experiments regarding alignment, I might as well post, just incase Jonathan is experimenting himself,
so I'll edit my post later on, (camera's in the shed)

Today's efforts I eventually achieved a trustable line, as I was getting some small variables which had me worried for a while.
I ended up trying the wide short plank on the wheels, and not just the motor, and found it much better, (easier and less effort)
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I measured it for interests sake, and it's 1 inch thick, and nearly unusable due to clearance of the chassis, i.e certainly no thinner, perhaps something, say under 30mm might be a safe bet for my 600 machine, though the thicker it is, the harder to balance it.
It's around 640mm long, and 92mm wide.
I think the tiniest bevel on both ends might be helpful, as I mistakenly flipped my level around, (This fairly decent level will hinge on the ends, and when upside down, the opposite)
I think it may have cleared a possible bit of spelching/rubbish on the end of the plank, (even though I gave them some attention with some scraping)
as my line is trustworthy now.
Don't bevel it too much, as if just over an inch, it may jam in-between chassis and wheel.

It seems that one can even do ball park alignment with some ticks, and go from there
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The wider plank enables one to traverse across the width, rather multiple locations whilst following the wheel.

I revisited doing some north/south adjustments, pleased to say it didn't throw things off a mile, so perhaps my impression was wrong about that,
I believe it did move, but not as much as I had thought.
Right or wrong, I done these minute adjustments with blade under tension.

Going back to the motor now, those pulleys have a shrink fit on the shaft, took a good bit of effort to pull out a bit, (after setting it deeper that is)
*which I might mention, the design lends itself to doing this mounting plate job, compared to some in which this much adjustment may not be possible, due to the pulley being
quite a bit on the shaft already... i.e bolting a plate to inside or outside might not get the pulley within the range of where it should be.
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I've got my pulley sitting 3.2/3.3mm on the shaft now which is very nice, and my head hurts thinking what might need doing for a machine with flange mount motor, without such a design
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I reckon if it were, I would'a needed more than a wee bit of plate.

Cheerio
Tom

[Erik Loza]

What options do I have for tires for my Felder bandsaw? I'm getting excessive flutter and vibration from my Felder FB 640…

I’m assuming you’ve already tried a few different blades (most common cause of vibration and flutter) but in my experience, Italian saws don’t ever really require replacement tires unless they’ve been physically damaged. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[Jonathan Jung]

I’m assuming you’ve already tried a few different blades (most common cause of vibration and flutter) but in my experience, Italian saws don’t ever really require replacement tires unless they’ve been physically damaged. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

I've tried several Lenox blades, all have flutter. Is there a standard way to regrind or surface them?

[Tom Trees]

Don't think any manufacturer would regrind them, but could be wrong, after all there is carriage and also wheel depth adjustability on the ACM's.
I guess it's still so, they don't mention that in any article they've made.

Have heard a few times they take the wheel away, which might suggest they bring it back to somewhere like Novellara,
unless they might have a place elsewhere, with something like a shoe repair oven? which is a total guess as to what this is...
and guessing are indeed ground, but I'm speculative as whether they grind a camber on all machines,
perhaps just the educational ones are more idiot proof with cambered tires.

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Not seen the same pattern as on a Centauro replacement non vulcanized stretch on tire.
Note the tongue on the underside would need to be removed, looks like they would be a battle to install twice.
But looking at them, it seems like this might be perhaps good enough...
I do wonder if the edge has a more important part to play than suggested anywhere.
This is why I was leaving my upper wheel tire alone for all to speculate, (along with any further inspection of recent work as of yet) and perhaps generate some other theories as to what else could be at play.
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Not sure if that's any use to ya, good luck though.

Tom

[Derek Cohen]

What options do I have for tires for my Felder bandsaw? I'm getting excessive flutter and vibration from my Felder FB 640. It's about 20 years old, has flat rubber tires (not crowned). Felder wants $95+ shipping for EACH tire. What's so special about them? Can I scrape or sand them smooth and round again? Does a better priced option exist? I have Sulpher Grove Tools urethane tires on other machines and really like them. Would they work?

Hi Jonathan

About a year ago my Hammer N4400 (18”) began vibrating. One of the tyres had stretched and come loose. This after 10 years of use. I decided to replace both the tyres and ordered those highly recommended blue types. While I was waiting for the replacements, since I was in the middle of a build, I decided to contact glue both old tyres onto the wheels (neither had been glued). I also made sure the wheels were clean, and later that the tyres were flat on the wheels. The result was like a new bandsaw. No vibration at all. In due course the new blue tyres arrived, but they have never been installed. What for?

Today I was finishing up a build in which I had bee cutting aluminium extrusions on the bandsaw (using a bimetal blade). Inside the saw there were fillings, and the lower wheel had become imbedded with them. None on the upper wheel. I scraped the tyres down with a card scraper, removing all filings. During this process I noted that the tyres were in excellent condition, and likely to continue their days on the wheels indefinitely.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Erik Loza]

I've tried several Lenox blades, all have flutter. Is there a standard way to regrind or surface them?

Did they all come from the same vendor? More than once, I have seen orders of multiple blades that were all welded incorrectly (the usual cause of flutter) from a dealer.

I would purchase a new blade from a different vendor and see if it flutters, too. Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Did they all come from the same vendor? More than once, I have seen orders of multiple blades that were all welded incorrectly (the usual cause of flutter) from a dealer.

I would purchase a new blade from a different vendor and see if it flutters, too. Just my 2-cents.

Erik
Which brings up the question of exactly which issues are present, in regards to what might be deemed as "flutter".
No doubt it's a very appealing and super descriptive term,
but could be taken up as fore and aft movement, rather than what I would consider the most accurate and documented.

i.e the flutter method for some, but perhaps more of interest mentioning harmonics and blade tension, which likely has a whole load of documentation
in the sawmill world.

Either way... in my mind, it refers to how close you could set your side roller guides,
which is a different scenario to what could be more apparent, and perhaps reason for some flutter, (should it be only slightly apparent)

I don't believe I've read of a better description to this as use of the term "fore and aft" ....i.e how close you can set your thrust guide,
but I'm all ears in that sense, and I guess there might be older descriptions from old books, which I may have forgotten.

I'm reckoning, (pure speculation) it's fore and aft movement which might be the real offender, which would make dressing or changing tires a waste of time,
unless disregarding the setup, installing crowned wheels and using the machine in anger.

All the best
Tom