Rob Cosman Video on cutting perfect dovetails first attempt

[Joel Gelman]

I posted about a topic where my reference to YouTube channels was to point out examples of people with very large plane collections, not to have a discussion of the merits of different woodworkers who use their YouTube channels as an income source. However, it did generate some interesting discussion related to the quality of the videos and accuracy of the information being presented.

Seems like a guy well liked on this forum is Rob Cosman. I am planning to learn to hand cut dovetails. I have been an average woodworker for decades, but I think I will consider myself above average then I learn to hand cut dovetails that look nicer than my Keller jig can offer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SrH6HbDdQ&list=PLqUOljnY0d9e0pMDPQ4B-pDO36Ad_CysT&index=1&t=966s

Rob Cosman made a video in 2020 indicated that with 35 years of teaching experience, he has developed a method where if I follow along and use the recommended tools and techniques, I will be able to cut dovetails on my first attempt. That sounds good to me! LOL That video was followed with a 2022 update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPtnPNpjnU&t=849s

Before I buy his saw and the other tools he recommended, I figure some of you may have thoughts on these particular videos. Thanks!

[Edward Weber]

IMHO
No one and I mean no one, cuts perfect dovetails on their first attempt.

There are hundreds of videos on cutting dovetails, while Cosman is generally well respected, his is only one method of many.
Personally, when looking to learn a new skill, I prefer to gain as much knowledge from as many sources as I can.
Cosman has his method which is fine for him, although it might not be right for you.
Just something to think about before you invest too much into one instructors method.

[steven c newman]

Go watch Paul Sellers...as he is doing a "Sofa Server" on his FREE Masterclasses videos...Includes both through dovetails and a "housed dado with through tenons"

[Ben Ellenberger]

I don’t think that buying a guide is necessary. I found the technique Paul Sellers demonstrates to be the most logical when I was learning. That said, just pick a technique and start using it.

It is ridiculous to expect to cut perfect dovetails the first time you try, or to present that as an expectation. Make one or two little
trays to get practice. Your first few will likely look ugly. If you are like me you will cut at least one corner of a box backward and have to throw it out. But it does mot need to be that complicated. You’ll get a few ugly ones out of your system, then you’ll pretty quickly be making perfectly acceptable ones.
after you’ve made one or two little shop trays, try to make something nice.
mid you’ve got a bevel gauge and a back saw (western, Japanese, whatever), and one or two chisels you’ve got all the tools you need. Quit watching videos and make something!
Youll get the hang of it pretty quick.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I like Rob, but save your money on contraptions and, if you don’t already have them, instead invest it in a good dovetail saw, a few chisels and a bevel gauge. Then, as others have mentioned, practice, practice, practice on scraps of various wood species.

[Joel Gelman]

Well... Understood there are many approaches, and sources of technical advice includes Paul Sellers. I understand the value of practice. I was thinking here is an example of a video suggesting one approach to dovetails and that this is a good initial approach. If not, why not?

It is advised I invest in a good dovetail saw. In the video, Mr. Cosman suggests items needed and the importance of a good dovetail and fret saw. He demonstrates the use of a saw he sells for $249 vs $299 and says why he thinks it is a great saw. Of course he financially benefits from selling his saw and so would be curious what others without a financial interest think of what he advises. If someone thinks what Paul Sellers suggests is most logical, I would be interested to know what is considered better. I have to get a dovetail saw and a couple of other tools before I stop watching videos and make something! LOL. Are the 2 saws he recommends the best choice?

Thanks.

[Tony Wilkins]

I haven’t heard much about them and nothing Bad. I have a Bad Axe that I really like but some use a Japanese Dozuki. I’ve heard a good saw aids in helping cut better dovetails out if the gate but it figures that it is only one aspect of the whole process. I don’t think you necessarily need his Shawn shim and marking knife/saw but if you use his method they would be helpful.

TLDR: I don’t think you’d go wrong with his saw but it’s not your only choice.

[Andrew Hughes]

Try for excellence not perfection.
Nothings perfect
Nothings finished
Nothing last forever

[Thomas McCurnin]

Two unique ideas that Mr. Cossman has, and actually no one has repeated, is the offset guide and the graduated saw.

The offset guide compensates the cut on the half pins on the ends by the thickness of the saw, his saw that he sells. But that thickness is pretty close to almost every other saw.

The graduated saw is a saw in which the first couple inches are have a lower teeth per inch ratio, making it a coarser blade and rougher cut, which in his estimation makes it easier to start the cut without the saw bouncing off the wood. I never had a problem with this, so the saw is a solution for which I had no issue or problem.

I like his videos and techniques a lot.

That said, I learned the Paul Sellers method at the school where he taught for over a decade in Waco, Texas. Its a much simpler and faster method.

On thing to thing about is a dovetail alignment board. Sellers just uses a hand plane to support the top piece for scribing, and one relies upon a good eye and perhaps a straight edge to keep things square. Jonathan Katz and others use, and sell, 8x10 board which has a lip on the side which keeps the tail board aligned with the pin board for scoring.

I disliked every dovetail guide made, like the Katz Moses guide and others. They are slippery and hard to hold onto the wood, and although some have magnets, to hold the blade onto the guide, I found them annoying.

Bottom Line for Me:

I'd start with Paul Sellers and make a simple wooden box using his method out of pine. This box was the exact box we made on the third day we took the class to make dovetails through the Paul Sellers method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EqgMx7fvls I think you'll find that his method is good enough, especially after gluing and finishing the box, as any imperfections are either not noticeable or add to the character of the box. One caveat--pine can come out in chunks if the chisels are not sharp.

Next, I'd try making the same box using Rob Cossman's method using his offset guide and perhaps his saw. You might try a dovetail alignment board on this second box.

Then, I'd figure out which one you are more comfortable with.

[Michael Fross]

I was lucky to take a few classes from Mr. Cosman when he used to go around teaching and was in my area. I learned his techniques and practiced (a lot). He has thought through every little step and does a great job explaining it.

I do have his saw, but any good saw will work. In fact I have recently made my own dovetail saw and have been using it without issue, although his saw is very nice.

His method of marking out dovetails (which I believe he learned from Alan Peters) is excellent. A few years ago, he solved what I believe is the hardest part of handcut dovetails - cutting the pins. The technique of moving the thickness of the kerf into the waste area has really helped me and now you just follow the steps he has laid out and my dovetails come out great.

Michael

[Tom Bussey]

I like to watch Rob Cosman videos. There are some things I agree with and some things I do not. Cheap often causes a lot more hindrance to the learning process. In my opinion a good place to start would be Lee valley. They offers a good dove tail saw for $89. Which is a cry from from what Robs cost.

When sawing, I like my arm at around 90 degrees to my elbow and since I am left handed I like my right hip turned into the bench a little. I like to find the natural swing from my shoulder. The natural swing is not 90 to the work piece. Since I do not cut dove tails every day. I do some practice cutting first, like cutting down straight and cutting at 90 degrees crossed the board gauging by eye. The term is Kenasteashua. I know it is misspelled but it is your sixth since and it is the ability to train mussels to repeat motion, and create mussel memory. Think of it as a very small child trying to learn how to feed his or her self with a spoon for the first time. We have 4 children and my wife said she wished for a floor drain under the high chair.

One does not need a Cadillac to learn how to drive. But a person shouldn't use one ready for the junk yard either. Latter if you want a Cadillac go for it. There is always room for more than one rip saw as well as more than one marking gage.

Latter on you may discover that hand cutting dovetails is not your cup of tee. If you decide not to continue at least you gave it a try.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't spend a lot of money when first trying it out. My disclaimer is my saw is a Lie Nielsen. I liked the traditional styling. The Veritas just didn't look right. The Veritas has gone up $10 since I bought my saw but the NL has gone up $50. Today for the $86 difference I could learn to love the saw that looks like it just came out of star wars.

Another thing is a bench chisel does not make a good dove tail chisel. And I grind my primary angle at 15-17 degrees and sharpen the micro bevel at 30. That way the chisel can go in deeper with out it being pushed to far back damaging the marking gauge line.

[Derek Cohen]

I posted about a topic where my reference to YouTube channels was to point out examples of people with very large plane collections, not to have a discussion of the merits of different woodworkers who use their YouTube channels as an income source. However, it did generate some interesting discussion related to the quality of the videos and accuracy of the information being presented.

Seems like a guy well liked on this forum is Rob Cosman. I am planning to learn to hand cut dovetails. I have been an average woodworker for decades, but I think I will consider myself above average then I learn to hand cut dovetails that look nicer than my Keller jig can offer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SrH6HbDdQ&list=PLqUOljnY0d9e0pMDPQ4B-pDO36Ad_CysT&index=1&t=966s

Rob Cosman made a video in 2020 indicated that with 35 years of teaching experience, he has developed a method where if I follow along and use the recommended tools and techniques, I will be able to cut dovetails on my first attempt. That sounds good to me! LOL That video was followed with a 2022 update.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPtnPNpjnU&t=849s

Before I buy his saw and the other tools he recommended, I figure some of you may have thoughts on these particular videos. Thanks!

Joel, I have a great deal of respect for Rob. He is an excellent teacher. Many of us owe our skills for dovetailing to his videos of 20 years ago. These are, however, different from those he puts out today. As I wrote, Rob is a great teacher, but he is also a salesman selling products (nothing wrong with that) and geared now towards ultimate success … but this involves holding your hand at every step and making you reliant on his aids. Back in the day, the focus was on understanding the process, good marking out, and sawing to the lines. Now one does not saw to a line (e.g. pin board), but score lines with a mini saw, having created an offset with an aid.

His dovetail saw looks great for some. Personally, I do not want graduated teeth (which are an aid) as it forces one to start the saw cut at the toe, and I do not want a heavy saw (which he created to make the downforce more automatic). I also do not like the shaped handle. These are more expensive than other really excellent dovetail saws. For those starting out, I recommend the 14 tpi Veritas dovetail saw. The relaxed rake of the teeth make it easier to start and smoother to saw.

Look for Rob’s first videos on dovetailing. Those are worth watching as the will teach you methods that further your skills. This is important in developing hand skills - you want skills to take you forward, and not just aids for the moment.

I have articles on my website on dovetailing, but they are not beginner methods, more for once you are clear on the basics. Ask questions and I will answer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Fulks]

Try for excellence not perfection.
Nothings perfect
Nothings finished
Nothing last forever
I’ve read that shop owners would let new apprentices learn dovetails on the cheaper utilitarian stuff.

[Tom Bussey]

I learned sawing dovetails from a Frank Klausz video. I still do not lay out the dove tails unless I am doing dove tails where both boards are splayed out. Otherwise I do my layout by eye and the saw. Unlike most I see on you tube I cut pins first.
My point is no matter how you do it or learn how to do it. It still take times with the saw in hand.

What works for me may not work for Michael or Thomas and visa versa. David Barron also offers an interesting way to cut dove tails and he uses a Japanese saw. His method works for him and I am sure a lot of others

But it still takes time in the cut.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm...(Don't mind me...I do pins first, LOL)
tools..
495360
Get yourself a GOOD square....and a SHARP easy to hold knife...
495361
Bevel gauge....as long as it will stay locked to the angle you need it to be..( can walk into Lowes and buy one)
495362
Marking gauge...not required, but nice to have...set it to the thickness of the stock...
495363
A mallet and a selection of chisels...sized according to the dovetails you are chopping...
495365
Backsaw...as long as it is sharp...and easy to use....That be a Jackson. I also have the Disston No. 68 (broom handle) and a Disston No. 4...all are 9ppi.

495367
Sit on a stool at the bench...lot easier on the back, than being hunched over...
495368
Leave yourself PLENTY of room...otherwise, the top of the bench can get rather crowded...

Beware of those that say you NEED a Fret Saw....because you really do not need one...

[Ben Ellenberger]

I’m another vote for the Veritas dovetail saw. Thats what I’ve got and have never felt the need to get a different one.

Also, I just started that Rob Cosman video. It is an hour long. I jumped ahead to 26 minutes in. He had the tail board marked out, the saw was in his hand, but he hadn’t cut anything yet. I don’t know what his full technique is, but I can tell you it is more complicated than it needs to be.

[Mike Henderson]

The Cosman dovetail saw is very expensive. I have the Veritas dovetail saw but prefer the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw (which I also have), both of which are a lot less expensive than the Cosman.

I learned how to do dovetails from a book - forgot the name just now. To cut good dovetails, you need to master the various processes and be accurate. And practice, practice, practice.

I started cutting dovetails with a Japanese dozuki saw. It's much slower than a western dovetail saw, but it's fairly low priced and you can get the job done with it.

There's no magic.

Mike

[Christopher Charles]

Best dovetailing advice I encountered was the Gary Rogowski 5-minute dovetail. Actually might have been the best bit of woodworking advice I ever got from the interwebs-took a lot of the pressure out the process for me and made it all a bit less precious. Which made it easier to do it all better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_rb9jMrXs0

[Tony Wilkins]

Mike, was that book Ian Kirby’s? One of the phrases you used reminds me of it.

[steven c newman]

Ever watch Roy Underhill do dovetails? Look it up, sometime....

[Graham Haydon]

Nothing wrong with following Rob's tutorials if they help you get what you want.

If you feel you must buy his products to succeed he has been effective as a salesman.

If you have the money and want to support him and his efforts go ahead, he's not the devil.

But know that dovetails were made without issue by professional and amateur alike without issue and without all the gimmicks.

[Jim Koepke]

I posted about a topic where my reference to YouTube channels was to point out examples of people with very large plane collections, not to have a discussion of the merits of different woodworkers who use their YouTube channels as an income source. However, it did generate some interesting discussion related to the quality of the videos and accuracy of the information being presented.
…
Before I buy his saw and the other tools he recommended, I figure some of you may have thoughts on these particular videos. Thanks!

You never know which way a post on SMC will ramble.

As far as videos go, when there is time they will be watched. Even the teachers who don't give me warm fuzzy feelings may be able to implant a kernel or two of knowledge in my brain.

Like many others who have replied my advice is to go with the Veritas Dovetail Saw. I have a few very nice dovetail saws plus a few that can do the job. A 14 ppi Veritas Dovetail Saw was purchased as a gift for my grandson. The saw really isn't my style, but it worked so well it got me to purchase a 20 ppi version for myself. Of course being the frugal type I waited for the seconds sale.


Two unique ideas that Mr. Cossman has, and actually no one has repeated, is the offset guide and the graduated saw.

On one of my first visit to a Lie-Nielsen Tool Event Glenn Drake was demonstrating his new fangled dovetail cutting system.

> https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/Glen-Drake-Technique.pdf

His came with a set of feeler gauges for different saw plates. He was also selling a kerf starter which also was available in different thicknesses for various saw plates.

The offset compensates for the common error of sawing through the line. When the pins are marked from the tails or tails are marked from pins the line made when the pieces are aligned is outside of the waste to be removed.

I do not know who came up with the system first.

Here is another idea, source of which is unknown.

495384

A straight edged piece of wood is clamped to the base line to help align to the pin board when marking the pins. If the pins are cut first this could help to hold the tail board in alignment with the tail board for marking.

Some will use blue tape across the base line for the same reason. Some will take a few passes with a rabbet plane. Many ways to get the same result.

My first dovetails were cut when I didn't know anyone to teach me and the internet was not as developed as it is today.

One of the things that did help me was to warm up with the Gary Rogowski 5-minute dovetail routine. Though I took it a bit further at the start.

I would take a couple of 1X4s, about a foot or two long, and dovetail them together. Then I would look at the joint and try to figure out my errors and how to correct them. Then they would be cut off and done again.

There is a good reason to do a few practice joints. This lets you cut a couple joints pins first then do a couple joints tails first. Then do it the way that feels most natural or comfortable to you. It is helpful to be able to cut them either way.

jtk

[Tom M King]

The most important thing about a dovetail saw is that it's sharp, and you can cut to a line easily with it. Almost all of my backsaws are older ones. The one I use most, and the one I choose for dovetails is an old Disston. The handle on that one is a little loose. It has several layers of paper between the blade and the handle so I could tighten the nuts good enough so it doesn't wiggle much. I always cut to any line with any saw.

Practice cutting to lines, and learn how to sharpen the saw. It's not as hard as it may seem to do either. Once you can do that, dovetails or anything else you need to cut is no problem.

I don't have any pictures or video, but here's the way I cut some handrail posts a couple of days ago.

Sorry, I can't right the pic this morning. I had to drive the posts in the ground because I didn't have any concrete, and couldn't go get any. I drove them in the ground so I could build the railings without having to wait to be able to go get bags of concrete.

[steven c newman]

Thing I found out about doing pins first...is it makes you mark in the waste side of the tails....all I then have to do, is just leave that line....And cut on the waste side....Nothing real fancy, just a freshly sharpened No. 2 pencil, to trace around the pins. Then just stay on the waste side of the lines...

One other tip I might offer....when you go to driving the two parts together with your hammer or mallet...have a block of hardwood scrap between the wood parts and the driving tool...Another thing for those that do the half blind version....go out and buy a decent, stiff bladed putty knife...the ones that aren't made to bend.....you then file or grind that stiff blade down, to match the kerf of your dovetail saw.....make sure it is still flat...This is your "Kerf Chisel" to follow the angled saw kerfs. It will reach down into the back corners where a saw can't go. The reason you want it flat...as any wedge shape will run the risk of splitting the wood. Also, you use the side of the tool, not the front edge...saves the handle, makes it easier to remove from the kerf.


BTW: The putty knife I use? Red Devil 1401....and mine has wood handles....

[mike stenson]

I remember watching his hand cut dovetails video, that lie-nielsen put out, in the 90s. There's really not a lot that has changed.The "gimmicks" are simply using tape as a ledge (like the 140 trick), offsetting the tail board the width of the saw plate (so you don't have to leave the line), and using a saw blade to mark the cut line. Not that complicated, and it'd be an easy way to make tight fitting dovetails. For those concerned about him selling his wares, he even says you can use any saws you like.

The dovetails on most of my shop furniture look like the dovetails in the back of antique drawers I've seen. Somewhat sloppy. When it counts, I saw square practice lines to get warmed up.

[Phil Gaudio]

Step 1: Learn how to cut accurately with a DT saw: straight and true. When you can consistently cut to a line and square to the face of the board, the rest of the mechanics of dove-tailing are relatively easy. Its accurate sawing that is the challenge. I keep a practice board in my front vise and make some practice cuts just about every time I visit my shop. Do this for a while and you will see your sawing ability improve. There are lots of other tricks but sawing accurately is step 1.

[Joel Gelman]

Many thanks. On the Dovetail saw the way I think about purchases is to take money out of the equation and imagine all all the same price. I want to figure out what is the best without value a component. Then, if something more expensive is best, I think if I want to spend the money. If the best happens to be less expensive, that is the easiest decision. In this case, seems like enough like the less expensive Veritas 14 that I can get at Woodcraft over the Cosman, that I will get the Veritas.

On the fret saw, the Cosman offering is under $50. I noted that on other threads people like the Lee Valley KC which in this case is more expensive than the Cosman offering.

I will try to figure that one out, make sure I have sharp chisels, and try different methods. I thought this video was interesting given that the author promoted this as a fairly foolproof method and was curious what would be the critique.

[Jim Koepke]

On the fret saw, the Cosman offering is under $50. I noted that on other threads people like the Lee Valley KC which in this case is more expensive than the Cosman offering.

A very similar fret saw is even less expensive > https://www.amazon.com/GERMAN-STYLE-JEWELERS-ASSORTED-BLADES/dp/B07SR5JCH8/ref=asc_df_B07SR5JCH8/ < It doesn't have the fancy handle.

Two of my fret saws are similar to this and do work well. My favorite is the KC because of the deeper throat, easier set up and being able to turn the blade holder. Mine was purchased before they started selling the ability to turn 180º. The need 180º for this feature isn't as strong as my desire to purchase one.

If you have a lapidary supply (rock shop) or jeweler's supply in your area you could likely find fret saws locally.

Joel, if you are in the Portland, OR area you would be welcome to come by and test drive the various options.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Joel, the “best dovetail saw” does not really exist. There are some amazing dovetail saws one can purchase, and I will include Rob Cosman’s in this mix since you raised it originally. However, all the available saw will differ in some components, and these will affect not only the way they are used, but where they are best used.

My favourite dovetail saw is one I made. I have made several, but this one has a 0.15” plate (which is thinner than the average at 0.20”), and the teeth are filed with 5 degrees of rake and 17 tpi. I like the hang angle and the 9” plate length. It is great for sawing hard, somewhat brittle Jarrah and Hard Maple.

Note in this example I have referred to a number of features. These features vary from saw-to-saw. What this means is that it is likely that dovetail saws will differ from one manufacturer to another. In my opinion, the Lie Nielsen is a very good saw, but better suited to a reasonably experienced sawyer as the rake is set high. This makes a more aggressive saw cut. The Veritas has a relaxed rake, which makes starting and sawing slower but more controlled. The Gramercy is another excellent saw, thinner plate and higher tooth count, but the thin handle has a higher hang and many do not get along with it.

The trouble is that there are not many who can offer a comparison of all the saws. First you have to own them as it takes a while to get to know them, and then there are different levels of ability, which affect judgement. I ended up withseveral dovetail saws, partly because I enjoy sawing joinery, and partly because they offer choices for different woods.

Give up on the idea that you can buy once. Your preference will change over time. My earlier recommendation of a Veritas 14 tpi stands. It is relatively inexpensive, but that does not mean that it offers less than, say, a LN. It is a very good saw. Later you may not even wish to buy another.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Joel the professional Dozuki saw at Lee Valley for much less $ than the other saws is a great dovetail saw. Thin plate, light for control. I have 3 other dovetail saws but the thin kerf of the Japanese saw is wonderful. It will cut for a very, very, long time before you even think about sharpening. A feather file is needed.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, was that book Ian Kirby’s? One of the phrases you used reminds me of it.

Ah, yes. That was it. Thanks for reminding me.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Step 1: Learn how to cut accurately with a DT saw: straight and true. When you can consistently cut to a line and square to the face of the board, the rest of the mechanics of dove-tailing are relatively easy. Its accurate sawing that is the challenge. I keep a practice board in my front vise and make some practice cuts just about every time I visit my shop. Do this for a while and you will see your sawing ability improve. There are lots of other tricks but sawing accurately is step 1.

Phil said it best. Learning to saw straight and true to a line is the primary thing you need to learn. The rest is just marking out.

Mike

[Mark Hennebury]

Derek, I think that you have missed-placed your decimal point there on the plate thickness. surely you mean 0.015"



Joel, the “best dovetail saw” does not really exist. There are some amazing dovetail saws one can purchase, and I will include Rob Cosman’s in this mix since you raised it originally. However, all the available saw will differ in some components, and these will affect not only the way they are used, but where they are best used.

My favourite dovetail saw is one I made. I have made several, but this one has a 0.15” plate (which is thinner than the average at 0.20”), and the teeth are filed with 5 degrees of rake and 17 tpi. I like the hang angle and the 9” plate length. It is great for sawing hard, somewhat brittle Jarrah and Hard Maple.

Note in this example I have referred to a number of features. These features vary from saw-to-saw. What this means is that it is likely that dovetail saws will differ from one manufacturer to another. In my opinion, the Lie Nielsen is a very good saw, but better suited to a reasonably experienced sawyer as the rake is set high. This makes a more aggressive saw cut. The Veritas has a relaxed rake, which makes starting and sawing slower but more controlled. The Gramercy is another excellent saw, thinner plate and higher tooth count, but the thin handle has a higher hang and many do not get along with it.

The trouble is that there are not many who can offer a comparison of all the saws. First you have to own them as it takes a while to get to know them, and then there are different levels of ability, which affect judgement. I ended up withseveral dovetail saws, partly because I enjoy sawing joinery, and partly because they offer choices for different woods.

Give up on the idea that you can buy once. Your preference will change over time. My earlier recommendation of a Veritas 14 tpi stands. It is relatively inexpensive, but that does not mean that it offers less than, say, a LN. It is a very good saw. Later you may not even wish to buy another.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I think that you have missed-placed your decimal point there on the plate thickness. surely you mean 0.015"

Looks like it, Mark! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Bulatowicz]

TLDR: my suggestion--in agreement with others--is that you purchase the Veritas, learn to sharpen and set the saw, gain some real experience sawing with it, and figure out based on experience and experimentation what you do and do not like (including handle shape, rake angle, fleam, weight. . .). After that, consider making your own saw; easiest is to purchase a kit--I highly recommend the Blackburn Tools kits, though my understanding is that the wait times are still in the range of several months and I have no experience with saw kits from any other vendor.

I realize I'm a bit late to the party here, but I'll throw in my agreement on the Veritas dovetail saw as a great option--regardless of price. This was my first dovetail saw, and it continues to serve me well. I used it a great deal in building my skills--first with sawing and then with sharpening saws; it's inexpensive enough that I eventually decided to sharpen it. Thanks to the price, I wasn't afraid to mess up the sharpening and try again and again if needed to get it right. I was immediately happy I had done so. As I found out firsthand and as I believe I've seen Tom King comment--I'm almost certainly misquoting him here--if an inexperienced person thinks a saw might need sharpening it's probably long past needing sharpening. I certainly had made that mistake: I initially waited until I noticed the saw slowing down. Yes, I definitely waited far too long; by the time the slowdown was noticeable to me as an amateur, particularly with said slowdown happening so gradually, the saw was very slow. Once sharpened, it immediately cut much better. There are many saw sharpening suggestions on this forum and others, as well as Pete Taran's website (vintagesaws.com) where he has a "saw sharpening primer" under the "library" link on the left side of the page that many have found useful.

Years down the road and having acquired more saws, I sharpen and set all my saws myself and have developed a strong preference for keeping them (and all my other edged tools) quite sharp. After a few years of using the Veritas with no complaints but with a few stumbles along the way--my fault, long since corrected--I was gifted a couple of saw kits from Blackburn Tools. The first that I built was the dovetail saw, and it quickly became my favorite. I can't say whether it has anything to do with the fact that I made the handle and assembled, sharpened, and set the saw myself, but I do know that I like the way the handle is custom fit for my hand--something impossible on a production saw. I still do like the Veritas handle very much, but there's definitely an advantage to a handle that is literally made to fit your own hand. Over the years, I have gradually adjusted the rake angle to be more aggressive, but I can not find fault with the relaxed rake of the Veritas for a beginner; an experienced person should find the rake angle and fleam if desired easy to adjust to suit personal preferences and the wood being worked.

Every saw has its foibles--including my favorite, mentioned above--and once you learn your preferences from earned experience I'd suggest you build your own saw or at least a custom handle. Note that the Veritas allows you to do exactly this: the handle is removable/replaceable and there's not actually a need to build an entirely new saw to get a handle that is custom fit to your hand. Maybe I'll build a new handle for my Veritas--eventually--but I do like the stock handle as-is and it hasn't become a priority. Having decided on a preference for my custom-built dovetail saw from the Blackburn Tools kit, I changed how I sharpen the Veritas to add fleam. It is now a small crosscut saw and I still use it quite a bit; simply for different tasks than I had originally used it.

Again, to emphasize: my experience says the Veritas dovetail saw is a great little saw, price notwithstanding. The relatively inexpensive price makes it a great value, too.

[Joel Gelman]

I went to Woodcraft yesterday and purchased the Veritas saw. I made a few cuts with it, but have no good basis for comparison. I also ordered the Fret Saw from Rob Cosman. He called me this morning. Seems like from another recent thread he has a habit of doing that. I think that a very nice touch. I had a nice conversation with him, and we have mutual woodworking friends. I will buy his saw and a couple of "gadgets". I am following the advice of Derek and others to get the Veritas, and the advice of Derek that I should give up on the idea that I can only buy once. I want to experiment and do a comparison, and want to give his approach a fair try.

Hopefully unlike chisels, the saws come already sharp, as I am improving my Waterstone sharpening skills along with my hand tool skills, and hope to have a little time with that before having to think about another skill set.

[Ben Ellenberger]

A big plus with the Veritas saws (and I assume Cosman/Lie Nielsen, etc.) is they come sharp and well-set. Start cutting!

You’ll get the hang of it with practice.

[steven c newman]

Yep, just go and start cutting..
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Just be sure to mark which is the waste...
495497

Just simple tools...
495498
No need to over-think things...

[steven c newman]

Work in Progress?
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You could say that...

[Charles Guest]

When you appreciate how important cutting 90* to the face, or to the end grain, depending on which half of the joint you're cutting then it becomes child's play. Too many beginners buy a very thin-bladed saw which actually can be twisted enough in the cut to throw off the fit. This often happens on white-knuckled first attempts when every muscle in the body is tensed, posture and positioning are poor, and one's whole notion of self-worth is on the line.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

90 degrees to the face/end is indeed critical for well fitting joints; tail angles (pin angles) can be sloppy when cutting tails first (pins first) as long as the appropriate 90 degree condition is observed on the mating part and the transfer of tail(pin) profile to the pin(tail) board is done well.

[Jim Koepke]

When you appreciate how important cutting 90* to the face, or to the end grain, depending on which half of the joint you're cutting then it becomes child's play. Too many beginners buy a very thin-bladed saw which actually can be twisted enough in the cut to throw off the fit. This often happens on white-knuckled first attempts when every muscle in the body is tensed, posture and positioning are poor, and one's whole notion of self-worth is on the line.

This is a good reason to practice a few before starting on building something with dovetails.

jtk

[Thomas Wilson]

The David Barron magnetic saw guide makes accurate saw starting easy. I recommend it

[Mike Henderson]

If you want an aid to starting your saw in the right place, cut a notch in the edge on the waste next to the line where you want to cut. It's an old technique - goes back to our ancestors.

Mike

[steven c newman]

I usually just plant my thumbnail right beside where the saw is to be cutting...and use the knuckle as a "guide" while sawing...

[Rob Luter]

I was lucky to take a few classes from Mr. Cosman when he used to go around teaching and was in my area. I learned his techniques and practiced (a lot). He has thought through every little step and does a great job explaining it.

I do have his saw, but any good saw will work. In fact I have recently made my own dovetail saw and have been using it without issue, although his saw is very nice.

His method of marking out dovetails (which I believe he learned from Alan Peters) is excellent. A few years ago, he solved what I believe is the hardest part of handcut dovetails - cutting the pins. The technique of moving the thickness of the kerf into the waste area has really helped me and now you just follow the steps he has laid out and my dovetails come out great.

Michael

Grasping that has made the biggest difference for me. When I'm sawing I literally remind myself over and over: "Cut to the waste side. Leave the line".

[steven c newman]

Working on it..
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And done...
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And a glue-up..
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[Jack Dover]

My dovetail saw was 30$ and I think I was ripped off. Yet it produces dovetails undistinguishable from LN dovetail saw that costs x5 as much. Pretty sure I can give a Cosman's saw a run for its money too. Same applies to coping\fret saws - 20$ says you won't tell which one cut out this particular socket.

[Mike Henderson]

My dovetail saw was 30$ and I think I was ripped off. Yet it produces dovetails undistinguishable from LN dovetail saw that costs x5 as much. Pretty sure I can give a Cosman's saw a run for its money too. Same applies to coping\fret saws - 20$ says you won't tell which one cut out this particular socket.

That's very true. It's much more the hand holding the saw, than the saw itself.

Mike

[Jack Dover]

Now one does not saw to a line (e.g. pin board), but score lines with a mini saw, having created an offset with an aid.

Same applies to Paul Sellers as well: he used to chop mortises freehand, now it's a second or third iteration of jigs that are so conveniently listed for sale (or about to be listed?). Pretty sure a dovetail guide is not too far away, in his tool chest video he kinda explores this idea.


For those starting out, I recommend the 14 tpi Veritas dovetail saw.

A solid advice.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

That's very true. It's much more the hand holding the saw, than the saw itself.

Mike

I agree with Mike; my experience says that while nice tools can be a joy to use, skill in use, setup, tuning, and sharpening is the limiting factor in my own work (mostly skill in use). With very few exceptions, I have yet to be truly limited by the tools themselves.

[Jack Dover]

Two unique ideas that Mr. Cossman has, and actually no one has repeated,

Yes, quite a terrifying idea indeed if you think about it: how the humanity managed to saw dovetails for thousands of years without these unique and obviously innovative ideas? Truth is, though, that these ideas were listed not in just one, but in several woodworking textbooks dated late 19th/early 20th century. Rob might have re-invented this independently, it happens, however none of these ideas were spotted in a wild. He's not alone in this too, the aforementioned Paul Sellers claims he has invented a method of straightening a tenon with a router - also something that can be found in old books. However, if you look the old videos that were posted on this forum (Hawley foundation, that old French video, etc.) you'll notice that craftspeople of the time didn't use these tricks - look at the late Phil Lowe's introduction videos where he does a mortise and tenon and dovetails, it takes him less time than it takes Paul to set up a router.

Any jig in my opinion is actually robbing you of skills and overcomplicates a fairly straightforward thing. It's not too hard to learn to saw plumb or to a line, it's not too hard to learn chopping plumb in between lines. And a workshop is not a circus, so no tricks required either.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Very funny and presumably tongue in cheek, and partially true, Jack.

I never said Cossman invented these two ideas, only that he is the only YouTube instructor that emphasizes them. If you know of another instructor for these two concepts, please elaborate.

Cossman actually has three unique ideas, only one of which was in the text that you mentioned and typically not taught by public instructors:

(1) Using a saw blade to mark the pins. You are correct that this idea is old. It was mentioned in the textbook Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis circa 1908 on page 66. Cossman actually took this idea and made a small marking knife with a serrated edge the same width as a dovetail saw to facilitate the marking of the pins to the exact width. Yes, he sells the little marking knife/saw.

And (2) Using an offset gauge to move the tail board over to the width of the saw kerf which places the mark (or saw kerf if one is using his knife/saw) exactly at the right place. This idea is not in any book or YouTube program that I have ever seen. I think it is a little fussy and I don't need that kind of accuracy, but I have used the little brass block and it works to offset one side of the pins, and one places the offset on the other side of the tailboard for the other side of the pins. Yes, he sells that marking gauge, which was fabricated by one of his wounded veterans. He is a big supporter of combat wounded veterans, and being one, I really love that guy.

And (3) Using a saw which has coarser teeth for the first few inches to enable the user to start a kerf without the saw bouncing out off the board. I've used the saw and like it at it has a larger handle grip than most, perfect for my big hands, but honestly don't fully appreciate the lower TPI on the first few inches. It works.

Cossman is a good instructor and has an excellent method which is a series of things which is second nature to him and to his students, but some find it a bit too technical and elaborate.

And to your point, yes the dovetail was used since ancient Egypt, and while it seems many instructors are re-inventing the wheel, the methods currently taught are sound, and the student needs to pick one that suits him/her and go with that. I'm more in the Paul Sellers camp and a disciple of that method, but Cossman is great and I have bought his products.

[Warren Mickley]

All these things are designed for beginners. They are like training wheels that you will soon outgrow. A lot of these guys are trying to come up with alternative techniques so guys can avoid gaining skills which would serve them in the long run.

Here is an example: In 2017 Cosman made a video about his KerfX10 tool ($120). He claims he learned this from Tage Frid and that the thing save a lot of time. Does it?

Well, in 2010 when Cosman wanted to show off how he could make half blind dovetails in 6 1/2 minutes, he didn't use a kerf extender at all. And if he really learned this from Frid, he knew about the technique for years (Frid died in 2004) before making the speed video.

Frid did mention this technique in a 1977 FWW article on scrapers. I read it . I tried it. I thought it a waste of time. It is a way for beginners to avoid gaining chisel skills while putting money in someone's pocket.

[Jack Dover]

There's a catch 22 kind of a situation for a beginner, where a badly fettled tool one's ability to do a good job indeed. Some people quit out of frustration of battling several factors at once. This is especially hard for someone who doesn't have friends that could relieve some of these factors. I think paying a bit extra for a better tool that comes set up and works out of the box is justified. However, it doesn't have to be that much extra. LV gents saws were 60$ a pop and they're as good as a handsaw can get, anything over is just bells and whistles or just a brand tax. I think that persuading beginners that they can succeed with premium tools only is predatory.

I once went to a dovetailing class organized by a local guild, just because I wanted to meet people (I think I can dovetail). The instructor provided those 20$ Big Horn gent saws to students, set and sharpened. Out of 8 people present 7 had 100% success (the last person just didn't pay attention and basically just messed around). They all were newcomers, I was helping sharpening their chisels while they were sawing. Again, to make them saw to a line an instructor drew 10 plumb lines and 10 skewed lines on a block of 2x. That was all what was needed, nobody had any issues sawing their first quite serviceable dovetails.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

progressive pitch on sawteeth is nothing new, I have a Disston D8 rip saw filed that way that was made in the 1920's

[Jim Koepke]

Very funny and presumably tongue in cheek, and partially true, Jack.

I never said Cossman invented these two ideas, only that he is the only YouTube instructor that emphasizes them. If you know of another instructor for these two concepts, please elaborate.

Cossman actually has three unique ideas, only one of which was in the text that you mentioned and typically not taught by public instructors:
…
And (2) Using an offset gauge to move the tail board over to the width of the saw kerf which places the mark (or saw kerf if one is using his knife/saw) exactly at the right place. This idea is not in any book or YouTube program that I have ever seen.
…
And (3) Using a saw which has coarser teeth for the first few inches to enable the user to start a kerf without the saw bouncing out off the board. I've used the saw and like it at it has a larger handle grip than most, perfect for my big hands, but honestly don't fully appreciate the lower TPI on the first few inches. It works.


I have not watched many YouTube instructor videos for a few years.

There are other sources > https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/Glen-Drake-Technique.pdf < shows the Glen Drake offset method and a kerf starter in use.

There is also a discussion about the Glen Drake Kerf Starter here > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?56293 < In this thread from about sixteen years ago, someone mentions Cossman's using a saw to mark out dovetails.

Coarser was highlighted, in the text, "the lower TPI on the first few inches," following makes your meaning clear.

For me, just learning the mechanics of this method at a LN Tool Event back 2006 or 2007 improved my dovetail cutting with out the expense of purchasing any new tools.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

There's a catch 22 kind of a situation for a beginner, where a badly fettled tool one's ability to do a good job indeed. Some people quit out of frustration of battling several factors at once. This is especially hard for someone who doesn't have friends that could relieve some of these factors. I think paying a bit extra for a better tool that comes set up and works out of the box is justified. However, it doesn't have to be that much extra. LV gents saws were 60$ a pop and they're as good as a handsaw can get, anything over is just bells and whistles or just a brand tax. I think that persuading beginners that they can succeed with premium tools only is predatory.

I once went to a dovetailing class organized by a local guild, just because I wanted to meet people (I think I can dovetail). The instructor provided those 20$ Big Horn gent saws to students, set and sharpened. Out of 8 people present 7 had 100% success (the last person just didn't pay attention and basically just messed around). They all were newcomers, I was helping sharpening their chisels while they were sawing. Again, to make them saw to a line an instructor drew 10 plumb lines and 10 skewed lines on a block of 2x. That was all what was needed, nobody had any issues sawing their first quite serviceable dovetails.

What I have against Gent's saws (at least the ones I've used) is that they have very fine teeth. They work, but they're slow.

I used a dozuki for years and it's kind of the same thing - very fine teeth. But the dozuki was cheap and it was what I could afford at the time.

When I have some time, I'm going to try making a practice set of dovetails with a panel saw, just to see what effect the saw has.

Mike

[Jack Dover]

Sorry if that came out abrasive. I was just trying to say that if not one, but several people re-invent the same idea independently and over about 150 years timespan - this isn't exactly a unique idea, it's rather a quite obvious one. The second point was that even these ideas seems to be working, we don't see them used by people doing this kind of stuff days in and out. I.e. cutting dovetails on a CNC is also a workable idea, but not really that pragmatic for most folks, right? Or in simple words not every workable idea should be put into one's production work (as in "getting to the final result", not as in "mass manufacturing" sense).

The points you have listed are solutions in search of a problem. If someone can't saw to a line, then that someone most probably can't saw on a line either, so it doesn't matter whether it's a pencil line, a scratch from a saw, or from a saw converted to the marking knife. That offset thing is basically following the previous: an attempt to address people that can't saw, as if putting a saw in a perfectly right position is their only problem (of course it's not even close to be their problem). Same for the graduated teeth: how many attempts did it take you to learn how to start any saw with just a single stroke? A bread knife has lower TPI than a dovetail saw, yet we don't see them with graduated teeth, do we? Nobody seems to have any issues starting a cut with a bread knife either. At any rate for a person without special needs learns how to start sawing in an hour tops: just go to the workshop and try a few times, I promise it will work by the lunch time.

And also let's ask this question: with all these tricks, jigs, guides and other products, how much benefit one gets? I'm asking this in the contest of the hand tools and work by hand forum. For result oriented diehards there are routers and jigs, absolutely no skills required, just a good health insurance maybe. But if one is after working by hands methods "like they did then" - then let's do it by hand like they did then, goddamit, there's no need to replicate the latest Circue de Soleil show, nobody's watching anyway. I don't know, maybe someone finds an idea being reduced to a protein based motor for 100% jigged setups really attractive, but I thought hand methods aren't about this, not nowadays at least.

Obviously you're totally free to buy Rob's products if you enjoy them. I'm pretty sure they're good quality and definitely bring joy to whoever desires them. They're not the key to being good at dovetails or joinery though, practice is - and this is my main gripe, because I think that quite an aggressive marketing misleads people into thinking that some arbitrary physical object can enhance someone's abilities and skills. This is magical thinking on one side and quite an exploitive technique on the other, that's all.

P.S:


This idea is not in any book or YouTube program that I have ever seen

There's a couple of texts that were published around the time the Ellis' book was and they even have it explained with pictures, let me dig my bookmarks, I might find it. Vaguely remember that the text mentioned it is aimed at pupils that struggle with dovetailing no matter what and going as far as stating that "it's not a workmanlike manner" (although I don't know whether I agree with this). Other textbooks show how to use saw for marking, I think it was in Bernard's "Complete woodworker", but I have to double check. I've even seen an offset jig picture in texts - two blocks of wood offset to a width of a kerf, kinda like shop made chamfer marking gages. Since I have never seen anything like that in any auctions or antique stores or anywhere else I have concluded that nobody has used them, pretty much like Moxon vises. If you have seen anything like that in the wild - please let me know.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Nah, you weren't abrasive. I thought the point was well taken, that people have been making dovetails for thousands of years, and really what is there to improve the technique?

Answer--none if you have a technique that works for you. I bought Rob's stuff just to see what it was and try it out. Like mechanical dovetails jigs for routers, I must have a complete box of tools I bought and have not used more than a few times. His saw is comfortable I will say that. The offset block is too fussy for me. The serrated knife/saw really makes a nice layout cut and I do use that, although half the time a sharp .5mm mechanical pencil is what I reach for, which is the Paul Sellers technique that learned at his Waco school and leave the line!

I will say this that the clear plastic Katz Moses dovetail guide, with the magnets was a complete waste of money for me. I tried using it a half dozen times and it was just plain stupid and awkward to hold the darn thing in place while I am trying to concentrate on my sawing technique. Its in the "stupid tools that I don't use" box. Call me a sucker, but I buy these things, and probably have more money than sense.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Doesn’t the Rob Cosman method require you to cut the tails first?

I think pins first is self-evidently the superior method. And don’t get me started about cutting the waste vs. chopping it!

[Jim Koepke]

Doesn’t the Rob Cosman method require you to cut the tails first?

I think pins first is self-evidently the superior method. And don’t get me started about cutting the waste vs. chopping it!

If my memory is working when Glen Drake was demonstrating the offset method it could be done pins first or tails first.

Pins first or tails first, the superior method is whichever works best for the person cutting them. Being able to cut them either way is a great asset.

One advantage of cutting tails first is being able to gang cut multiple tail boards. With pins first gang cutting doesn't work.

jtk

[Jack Dover]

Yeah, we all have a "you're sucker" box or a drawer, I definitely have, no matter how embarrassing it is to admit.
Btw, I dug through books and indeed Bernard's illustration suggest using a tenon saw for tails transfers. I might find the illustration with the offsets eventually.

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[Jack Dover]

One advantage of cutting tails first is being able to gang cut multiple tail boards.

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

[Jack Dover]

Pins first woodworkers unite!

[steven c newman]

Pins first...gets tighter joints

[Jack Dover]

What I have against Gent's saws (at least the ones I've used) is that they have very fine teeth. They work, but they're slow.

The Veritas you mean? Yeah, LV might have offered different TPI, their gents saws are the bee's knees. I'm actually using "Sheffield" gent saws — it's from the company that used to be knows Garlic&Sons. Not sure who owns them today, but this manufacturer produces gents saws for other brands - Lynx, BigHorn, etc. It looks like every brand has its own specs, 'cos I have identically looking saws in 12TPI and 16TPI.


I used a dozuki for years and it's kind of the same thing - very fine teeth. But the dozuki was cheap and it was what I could afford at the time.

The most actively marked dozuki's are indeed too fine and invariably crosscut (there's a special name for the rip dozuki and they're super hard to come by). My problem though is the blade thickness, it's so fine that it doesn't track right in domestics starting at around 3/4" - it makes a gentle curve. But I've seen and used dozuki with less TPI and stiffer blade. Today it's not a big deal though, there was a guy who taught me to cut dovetails with a ryoba or a kataba, never looked back. Btw, if those "Shashimono" YT videos is any indication how Japanese cabinetmakers work, then they don't care about the saw, the craftsman from the video cuts full-blinds with an azebiki.


When I have some time, I'm going to try making a practice set of dovetails with a panel saw, just to see what effect the saw has.

It is totally going to work, assuming you can get a well tuned saw. Surprisingly, there are some hard tooth brands that are well set on the factory. Mike Siemsen (of the Naked Woodworker fame, the man who made Nicholson benches popular and a really, really underappreciated woodworker in general) had a class where he made a small pine chest (I guess?) out of 1x using only an Irvin hard tooth saw and two chisels.

Personally I believe kerf width doesn't matter as long as there's enough waste for it. The key is keeping it as close to a line as possible. I've started with an offset back saw with a reversible handle. It was quite a crude tool even when it was new, and even after a shop teacher filed and set them properly. I thought that was my problem - the kerf is too large, — so I went looking for modern saws with thin blades. A few years back I was going through my American backsaws. They all have thicker blades than English saws or the modern saws (American made tools tend to be beefier in general), so it got me thinking how they managed to build all those fine pieces with tools like that? I've pulled some scraps and cut some dovetails with different saws: Veritas, a no name brand from India, a NOS Lynx, etc. I even tried a hack saw just for the kicks. Couldn't really tell which tail was cut with what saw the next day.

[mike stenson]

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

Depends on how many drawers you're doing. It also makes exposed dovetails on casework a mirror image, which is nice. I always, at least, do both sides of a drawer together (and case sides). If nothing else, it keeps the joints visually identical.

Edit: I actually find it easier to hit 90º with a 2" thick 'board' than 1/2" thick.

The only thing I have against 'gents saws' is that it's harder for me to feel it's orientation.

[steven c newman]

Ya know what..I think that later on today.....
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I might just start to turn these 6 parts into a box....with through dovetails...
496665
Large combo square in use..
496666
Saw to be used..small combo to carry lines around..I do have a better mallet, though...

Box sides and ends are 1/2" thick, resawn Ash..so, we'll see...

[Jim Koepke]

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

If your prone to screwing things up then possibly. If you really want to screw up, try power tools. They screw up faster.

Mike posts some good reasons for doing multiple pieces together:


Depends on how many drawers you're doing. It also makes exposed dovetails on casework a mirror image, which is nice. I always, at least, do both sides of a drawer together (and case sides). If nothing else, it keeps the joints visually identical.

Edit: I actually find it easier to hit 90º with a 2" thick 'board' than 1/2" thick.

The only thing I have against 'gents saws' is that it's harder for me to feel it's orientation.

It can also save time with your sawing, especially if a coping/fret saw is used to remove the bulk of the waste.


Pins first...gets tighter joints

A bit more than nine years ago it was too cold in the shop and too crowded in the house to glue up a drawer's dovetail joinery. My intention was to do the glueing when the weather got warmer.

496673

Still after all these years a glue up round tuit hasn't come along nor has it been needed.

If those were any tighter, that soft white pine would have probably been split in places by now.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

A bit more than nine years ago it was too cold in the shop and too crowded in the house to glue up a drawer's dovetail joinery. My intention was to do the glueing when the weather got warmer.

496673

Still after all these years a glue up round tuit hasn't come along nor has it been needed.

If those were any tighter, that soft white pine would have probably been split in places by now.

jtk

I have to ask, a dovetailed drawer on a screwed together bench?
(just teasing)

[steven c newman]

2 corners done...compare a dry fit of Pins first..
496675
and because I thought I'd try..tails done first...
496676
I think I'll go back to pins first...
496677
IF nobody minds...

Saw used?
496678
Disston No.4, 14", 9ppi...
496679
Show face gets half chopped...finish up with the inside face..
496680
Just over an hour IN the shop, today...

[mike stenson]

It's not the choice of pins or tails first that made the joint. Unless you believe it did ;)

[Jim Koepke]

It's not the choice of pins or tails first that made the joint. Unless you believe it did ;)

LOL!

One time in my practice sessions one of the last dovetail joints of the day was cut pins first instead of tails first. It fit better than all the previous joints cut during the practice session. The next joint was cut tails first and demonstrated it wasn't the pins first approach making the joint tighter, it was all the practice improving my saw handling before cutting the joint.

It used to be my dovetail joint cutting for something like a drawer would finish the back joints first because they always improved the look of the front's dovetail joints.

Now a few practice dovetail joints are cut in scrap before cutting them on a project. Kind of like warming up before a ball game.


I have to ask, a dovetailed drawer on a screwed together bench?
(just teasing)

I know it is just a tease, but it was too cold to glue in the shop and it was a quick "get er done" project. There is some mortise and tenon and a lot of half lap joints there. It is now pretty much dedicated to holding my power sharpening system on the top and old rusty stuff on the bottom shelf.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

It's not the choice of pins or tails first that made the joint. Unless you believe it did ;)

I was kidding about pins vs. tails. Everyone knows it is pull saws vs western saws!

Although, to be serious for a minute, I agree with someone above. The Japanese back saws with super fine cross-cut teeth are not my favorite for cutting dovetails in stuff that is 3/4” or thicker. They are pretty nice for very thin boards. Sometimes I choose the saw based on which one is quickest to grab, and things still seem to work out OK.

If you have ten different people all saying their variation gets the best results, isn’t that pretty good evidence that the details don’t matter that much?

[Jim Koepke]

If you have ten different people all saying their variation gets the best results, isn’t that pretty good evidence that the details don’t matter that much?

yep

jtk

[Monte Milanuk]

I was kidding about pins vs. tails.

Oh, c'mon. I was kind of enjoying reading about something different for a change ;)

[Thomas McCurnin]

I was always assuming that gang cutting dovetails is good way to screw up multiple pieces at once. How much time does it save anyway for woodworkers like us?

Oh, Jack, you made me laugh so hard on this comment that coffee was spewing out of my nose and onto the computer keyboard.

[Jack Dover]

Yeah, okay, I make templates for marking out, so they're identical to an untrained eye. My concern that gang sawing reduces the effort, but errors are multiplied too. Like, if you're a bit out of square on a front piece, the piece at the back will be even more out of square. Or if you go past the baseline, instead of one cheesy socket you get several.

Also, a perfect square is not required if you go slightly out of square in a right direction - a dovetail becomes tighter where it's seen. I don't do it on purpose, just starting my saw such that if I go out of square - it will be in a favorable direction. Sawing square was never a problem to me, perhaps after I had to crosscut a few hundreds piquets in a weekend (because we managed to bust our only circular saw a few days before, lol).


The only thing I have against 'gents saws' is that it's harder for me to feel it's orientation.

It's because for whatever reason people don't explain the right grip. The right grip is a so called "dagger grip", where the tip of the tote goes in about the middle of your palm and your index finger is extended along the back, so it's like you're pointing with it, but also hold a saw. Some people hold paring chisels like that, we hold planes similar to that too. This grip gives you a total control over the blade position the first time you try it. Often I see people holding a gent saw kinda like a hammer (a monkey grip or whatever — yeah, that's indeed a hard way to control it. This grip though is sometimes impossible for some people, a friend of mine broke his right arm and now he just can't position his hand correctly. But short of something like this the proper grip comes naturally w\o you even looking.

And the other thing is a high TPI on Veritas gents, that often gives an impression it's a speciality tool for trimming stringing and small parts (it's not). I wish LN would give an option to select TPI from some predefined set, idk, 12TPI, 14TPI and maybe 16-18TPI would be a good choice.

[Jack Dover]

try power tools. They screw up faster.

My fear of the power tools is that they can not only screw my piece, but also can screw up my life royally. Every time I'm about to start a machine we're not supposed to mention here I do a couple mins break and just remind myself and envision what can potentially happen in the next few mins. Call it a phobia, but I don't like it, so I better screw up something with hand tools.

[Derek Cohen]

My fear of the power tools is that they can not only screw my piece, but also can screw up my life royally. Every time I'm about to start a machine we're not supposed to mention here I do a couple mins break and just remind myself and envision what can potentially happen in the next few mins. Call it a phobia, but I don't like it, so I better screw up something with hand tools.

Jack, next time you are in Oz, pop in for a beer and therapy. We cannot have you like this :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

It's because for whatever reason people don't explain the right grip. The right grip is a so called "dagger grip", where the tip of the tote goes in about the middle of your palm and your index finger is extended along the back, so it's like you're pointing with it, but also hold a saw. Some people hold paring chisels like that, we hold planes similar to that too. This grip gives you a total control over the blade position the first time you try it. Often I see people holding a gent saw kinda like a hammer (a monkey grip or whatever — yeah, that's indeed a hard way to control it. This grip though is sometimes impossible for some people, a friend of mine broke his right arm and now he just can't position his hand correctly. But short of something like this the proper grip comes naturally w\o you even looking.



Seriously, Now people don't know how to hold a saw?
Any tool with a round handle is more difficult to index than one with any other shape, this is simply a fact.

Think I'll go to another forum where they're trying to reinvent the wheel or something easy, You people make dovetails far too complicated.

[Jack Dover]

Absolutely, Derek! I'll even bring my own beer, pretty sure it will be very, very therapeutic :)

[steven c newman]

Corner #3 done as Pins 1st...
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Selection of saws...
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Selection of chisels...
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Including one ground to a triangular profile...
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Once corner #4 was done..I ended today's 90 minute work session with a full dry fit....to test out a way to clamp this up, once the glue has been brushed on...

YMMV, of course...

[Monte Milanuk]

Two unique ideas that Mr. Cossman has, and actually no one has repeated, is the offset guide and the graduated saw.

The offset guide compensates the cut on the half pins on the ends by the thickness of the saw, his saw that he sells. But that thickness is pretty close to almost every other saw.


On one of my first visit to a Lie-Nielsen Tool Event Glenn Drake was demonstrating his new fangled dovetail cutting system.

His came with a set of feeler gauges for different saw plates. He was also selling a kerf starter which also was available in different thicknesses for various saw plates.

The offset compensates for the common error of sawing through the line. When the pins are marked from the tails or tails are marked from pins the line made when the pieces are aligned is outside of the waste to be removed.

I do not know who came up with the system first.




Just for the sake of argument... I happened to be looking through volume III of 'The Woodworker' by Hayward (reprint from LAP), and in the chapter on dovetails there is a set up for cutting pins and tails concurrently, with a shopmade offset gauge. Basically it had you clamp the boards together at a 90, use the offset gauge to put the tail board over one way, cut half the tails (and pins), unclamp, move the offset gauge and push the pin board over the other way, clamp and cut the other half of the tails and pins. Then unclamp, and finish the cuts all the way.

It's an interesting system... but the relevance here is that those articles are from 50's and 60's? It's not necessarily a new thing.

Now... I just wish I'd known how 'easy starting' the Veritas DT saw was, or I might have gotten that instead of the LN saw. Cuts beautifully... once it starts. Which is giving me fits getting the cut going in the intended place :rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

It's an interesting system... but the relevance here is that those articles are from 50's and 60's? It's not necessarily a new thing.

Now... I just wish I'd known how 'easy starting' the Veritas DT saw was, or I might have gotten that instead of the LN saw. Cuts beautifully... once it starts. Which is giving me fits getting the cut going in the intended place

Interesting discovery Monte, next point to ponder is who taught it to Mr. Hayward. It likely goes back much further than the '50s or '60s.

Starting a saw is something learned over time with a lot of practice. For me it is a matter of using a thumbnail as a guide and to steady the saw. Then with the heel of my hand applying light pressure against the rear horn on the saw's tote to limit the saw's engagement with the wood to start a kerf.

Some find making the first stroke backwards a help. There are many techniques people employ to begin a cut.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

In the unlikely event you live near the center of Ohio, give me a holler and we can cut some dovetails together.

[steven c newman]

497091
Done did...

[steven c newman]

I might just get the hang of these things, someday?
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Ya think?

[Thomas McCurnin]

Just for the sake of argument... I happened to be looking through volume III of 'The Woodworker' by Hayward (reprint from LAP), and in the chapter on dovetails there is a set up for cutting pins and tails concurrently, with a shopmade offset gauge. Basically it had you clamp the boards together at a 90, use the offset gauge to put the tail board over one way, cut half the tails (and pins), unclamp, move the offset gauge and push the pin board over the other way, clamp and cut the other half of the tails and pins. Then unclamp, and finish the cuts all the way.

It's an interesting system... but the relevance here is that those articles are from 50's and 60's? It's not necessarily a new thing.

Now... I just wish I'd known how 'easy starting' the Veritas DT saw was, or I might have gotten that instead of the LN saw. Cuts beautifully... once it starts. Which is giving me fits getting the cut going in the intended place :rolleyes:

Thank you, Monte!

Just for grins, I ordered the Hayward Book from Lee Valley, as there was nothing used. It is a nice, hard bound, full size book, about a half inch thick consisting of reprints of articles from a British magazine in the 1930s. What a wonderful book. The dovetail section has a homemade jig to cut the tails and pins side by side on upside down miter gauge contraption, shop made. Yes, indeed, there is an article there that cuts the tails and pins, on on top of eachother, using clamps and an offset block made from scrap and a sheet of brass about the thickness of one's saw.

This book is a treasure trove.

[Monte Milanuk]

It is a nice, hard bound, full size book, about a half inch thick

Sounds like you got just volume III? The other ones are equally nice, though I haven't really read much of the last one (red cover) as it seems like more opinion / editorial content, at least from a quick skim.

There's a fair bit of stuff in those articles that looks a lot like the tools/techniques that Cosman (and Sellars) lay claim to in more modern times. Though to be fair, that original content was effectively 'lost' for a good while, and even now it's only available in hardback book format, which is less appealing to many in the age of video info-tainment.

[Jim Koepke]

My grandson Mike cut his first dovetails on a visit up here:

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He was shown the basics and left on his own while I took care of other chores. I checked in on him occasionally.

He had a little hassle with the fret saw but other than that they look better than my first try.

jtk

[Jack Dover]

next point to ponder is who taught it to Mr. Hayward.

Apparently nobody in particular, he didn't complete his apprenticeship because of WWI. After the war he didn't continue this path, because his dream was to be an illustrator, which he has became eventually. The last red volume (don't buy it, and if you ask me — I regret buying the first three, these texts are available for free apparently) goes into his biography a bit, including how he got to be at the magazine.

Mr. Hayward didn't bring anything new in terms of woodworking. He was a great artist and eventually a great editor, but most of hist texts are kind of community work - info provided by craftspeople, mail exchange with readers and from older editors — he actually had a chance to work alongside a few editors that did the "Work" magazine early in his career. The jigs and aides are there because it's what magazines do: keep their readers engaged with promises that they would be better woodworkers after reading a new issue. This applies to every modern day magazine too.

I think Hayward texts are great because they go into areas of tacit knowledge, which is important for someone being completely alone in the craft. I also think that magazine subscription was the right price for it. But the amount LAP wants for this and the way they decided to present it? I would rather pay for a class or paid dues to the local guild and find a mentor there.

[Jack Dover]

Though to be fair, that original content was effectively 'lost' for a good while

What do you mean "lost", where do you think Schwartz got it from? It's all available on Internet, free of charge, and I'm pretty sure at a good library too.

[Warren Mickley]

I think the best of Hayward's work is the books he wrote, not the magazine articles. He wrote about a dozen books, like beginning cabinetry, finishing, woodwork joints, carving, etc. The first books had titles like Beginning Carpentry, which was not about carpentry at all, but hand work at the bench. The term carpentry was used more generally for woodworking 50-90 years ago.

A lot of these books are still in print.

P.S. Lost means Schwarz didn't know about it.

[Edward Weber]

P.S. Lost means Schwarz didn't know about it.

I admit it, that actually made me laugh out loud.

NONE of this is new, just newly discovered by some.

[Jack Dover]

I think the best of Hayward's work is the books he wrote

A lot of these books are still in print.

Oh yes, this is right on, his books are way more methodical than a collection of magazine articles. And don't let me even getting started on LAP publishing and layout style or there will be atrocities. By the way, these green books could have been half as thick if all repetitions were merged into a single chapter. So as the content goes it's a great tribute to Hayward-illustrator rather than anything.


P.S. Lost means Schwarz didn't know about it.

Best definition of "lost" to date.

[Mel Fulks]

I read Hayward’s books at least 50 years ago, and was enlightened and impressed. Superior to everything else then available.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Lee Valley sells a combination version, Parts 1-3 and a separate Part 4, which is mainly projects. They are a large book, about 8x12 but only a little over a half inch thick. I got Parts 1-3, although I may go back and get Part 4 for grins. They are hard bound, and meant to last a lifetime. They are reprints of article with typos, which I love, e.g., referring to the soul of the plane.

[Monte Milanuk]

P.S. Lost means Schwarz didn't know about it.

Maybe so.

To me, 'lost' was more in reference to "most people who weren't alive and working in the trades when the articles were originally published have no idea they even existed, until LAP re-printed them in the current format."

[Jim Koepke]

referring to the soul of the plane.

All my planes got soul. :D

jtk

[Jack Dover]

Sure, that's one way to put it, though none of it is the case: Hayward was just one from hundreds of authors writing on the topic, not mentioning text books for trade schools and army guides. Books on woodworking for amateurs sells well at a volume since late 19th century, when productivity went up so more people had leisure time.

But let's wait until Schwartz "discovers" the Audell's Carpenters and Builders Guide.

[Jim Koepke]

But let's wait until Schwartz "discovers" the Audell's Carpenters and Builders Guide.

It was my great fortune to acquire a four volume set of this on ebay for $12.50. The information learned on how to drive nails without bending them was worth the price to me.

It also helped my grandson and me build two sets of stairs.

There is so much more great information in the Audels Carpenters and Builders Guide.

There are also other Audels guides for other trades.

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Lee Valley offered a 2006 reprint but it is no longer available.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

For those interested
https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/AQ-1189.XX

I think one of the draws that the books of a certain age have is, that the methods usually employ a minimum compliment of very basic tools. This alone can make the tasks seem less intimidating.
They're not trying to sell you anything, you already bought the book.

[Jon Snider]

Two unique ideas that Mr. Cossman has, and actually no one has repeated, is the offset guide and the graduated saw.

The offset guide compensates the cut on the half pins on the ends by the thickness of the saw, his saw that he sells. But that thickness is pretty close to almost every other saw.

The graduated saw is a saw in which the first couple inches are have a lower teeth per inch ratio, making it a coarser blade and rougher cut, which in his estimation makes it easier to start the cut without the saw bouncing off the wood. I never had a problem with this, so the saw is a solution for which I had no issue or problem.

I like his videos and techniques a lot.

That said, I learned the Paul Sellers method at the school where he taught for over a decade in Waco, Texas. Its a much simpler and faster method.

On thing to thing about is a dovetail alignment board. Sellers just uses a hand plane to support the top piece for scribing, and one relies upon a good eye and perhaps a straight edge to keep things square. Jonathan Katz and others use, and sell, 8x10 board which has a lip on the side which keeps the tail board aligned with the pin board for scoring.

I disliked every dovetail guide made, like the Katz Moses guide and others. They are slippery and hard to hold onto the wood, and although some have magnets, to hold the blade onto the guide, I found them annoying.

Bottom Line for Me:

I'd start with Paul Sellers and make a simple wooden box using his method out of pine. This box was the exact box we made on the third day we took the class to make dovetails through the Paul Sellers method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EqgMx7fvls I think you'll find that his method is good enough, especially after gluing and finishing the box, as any imperfections are either not noticeable or add to the character of the box. One caveat--pine can come out in chunks if the chisels are not sharp.

Next, I'd try making the same box using Rob Cossman's method using his offset guide and perhaps his saw. You might try a dovetail alignment board on this second box.

Then, I'd figure out which one you are more comfortable with.

This is a very good, gentlemanly and thoughtful post. Thank you.

[Rafael Herrera]

Alternative sites where to get copies of the Hayward, Audels, or other out of print books are www.abebooks.com or www.thriftbooks.com.