HELP where do I start...

[John Scane]

I haven't been on here a lot lately and I wish I could say that I have been busy working in my shop but that's not the case. To make a long story short the city of Long Beach shut down my shop in the beggining of Dec. I have been trying to get it back up and running. Basically they refused my business license untill I get some plans passed and inspections done. It has been a HUGE Pain !!!! but instead of complaining about how completely UNHELPFUL the city has been I will just tell you what hurdle I am trying to get over now with them. They want all of my machines to be UL listed. 3 of them are not.....I know there are people / companies that will come out and test them but I can't afford that. Has anyone getting thier business license out there had to do this ? The 3 machines that aren't are my Onieda dust collector, my 20" Mini Max bandsaw and my 10" Oliver jointer. Thank GOD I didn't go with all old iron when outfitting my shop, i'm sure most of that stuff isn't. Another rediculous thing about this is that they also want all the duct work I put up for dust collection to be permitted by a licenced contractor. My shop is about 900 sq ft. you can see pics of my duct work on my website.....It's hardely anything!!!! I could go on and on with the crazy requirments but I won't.
thanks for listening. Any advice appreciated.
John

[Lee DeRaud]

Have you gotten a quote from UL themselves for the certification?
https://www.ul.com/mas/index.html
https://www.ul.com/mas/quote.cfm
Can at least find out what kind of numbers you're dealing with...

[Matt Meiser]

Have you contacted the manufacturers of those tools? They might be able to provide information that could be useful.

[Reg Mitchell]

thanks for the reminder why i left Cal. and moved to the country....:)

[Cecil Arnold]

John, I spent 15 years as a fire inspector and inspection supervisor in Houston and have asked for UL certification many times in the past. While it doesn't help your situation, what they are looking for is something that says that the equipment meets a safety standard.

In your case they are looking for a US standard. I think you could argue, in the case of the MM, that it meets the European (EC) standard which is IMHO a higher standard than the US requires. Generally what they want is something to lay liability off to if there is a problem You might have to get in touch with MM in Austin to facilitate some paper work stating this, although it is a logical conclusion to draw for a commercial European machine. For your DC, the motor (if it is Baldor) should have a UL label on it and that may be enough to sneak it through, although I think they are looking for other things here, i.e. static grounding. I've been retired now for a number of years and my UL books have gone away, but after thinking about it I don't recall ever seeing a UL listing for any of the equipment you mention. If you can ask without hacking someone off, you might ask what standard UL should test the equipment to.

As to the Oliver, don't know, but you could ship it to me for safe keeping until you get that part worked out.

[Dave Fifield]

I thought EVERYTHING that plugged into the AC supply HAD to have UL certification before it was allowed to be sold. That's why you see so many wall warts on small electronic items - the wall warts are pre-approved and the new electronic gizmo can be sold right away without any more UL testing. I would bet that if you contacted the manufacturers, they'd be able to give you the UL certification information right away.

Good luck.

[John Scane]

Have you contacted the manufacturers of those tools? They might be able to provide information that could be useful.

Yea I called all the manufacturers. They don't have it.

[Andy Pedler]

I know that some people might be shocked at this suggestion, but if I were you, I'd put in a call to your local US Representative (and your state assembly rep as well). Yes, it's federal government and you're dealing with a local issue, but you might be surprised what they can make happen. It isn't in anyone's interest, particularly the city and state's, to have your business shut down.

It won't take long, and it might not lead to anything productive, but it is worth a shot. I've had some experiences in the past where the local politicians have been able get issues resolved a lot quicker than would have otherwise been possible.

Good luck!

I'm also a little bit surprised that any of the companies mentioned can even sell products in the US without that sort of certification. I design network routers and switches, and our devices (which are much less prone to cause an injury than a saw) must go through all sorts of compliance testing before we can even sell them!

[Barry O'Mahony]

I thought EVERYTHING that plugged into the AC supply HAD to have UL certification before it was allowed to be sold.There are generic clauses in the NEC that say all electrical equipment used in an installation must be "approved" (Section 110). "Approval" may be done by a recognized testing lab; UL is one but there are others, such as ETL.

Consumer goods manufactures get UL or similar listing as a CYA strategy to aid in defense against liability, but prohibitions against sales of non-approved equipment is vary rarely done at the sales level; I even know of one company that sell old-fashiones electric switches that aren't approved or listed!

This requirement is rarely enforced, except once in a while in commercial applications like you're running in to. For the European equipment, look for a CE mark like Cecil suggests, or an IEC number in the documentation.

[Rob Blaustein]

I'm also a little bit surprised that any of the companies mentioned can even sell products in the US without that sort of certification. I design network routers and switches, and our devices (which are much less prone to cause an injury than a saw) must go through all sorts of compliance testing before we can even sell them!

Yeah, isn't that why there is this big delay getting Festool stuff over here from Europe--we tend to lag behind in terms of when new items can come on the US market, and I thought it was UL certification. Maybe hand tools are different from stationary ones?

Good luck--this sounds like a real pain.

[Don Baer]

John,

For a long time LA county would only recognise UL or LA City Labs as the aceptable testing labratory. Now they recognise several other labs including CSA. So if any of the equiptment has a CSA label that will do. Other then that Id try to work with the inspectors and see if by replacing the motors and motor controlers with approved devices will meet there criteria. It might be fairly easy and not too expensive to buy new Baldor or leeson motors that have a label. If you need some help with this PM me and I'd be glad to swing by you shop and help you out.

[Chris Giles]

John,
As I see it, the problem here is the inspector, not the equipment. Ask what machinery they object too, and remove it. Get a contractor to permit whatever work requires it, maybe he would like to trade this service for some cabinet work. Stay on the inspector with every detail until it passes. A UL listing is not a safety guarantee and should not be treated as one (I learned this straight from a UL representative). The inspector has a job to do, so help him do it any way you can. At least he hasn't asked you to install sprinklers yet.... Has he?:eek:

[Karl Laustrup]

I don't have a clue how you can solve your problem John. :(

I used to live in Long Beach and then in Cypress for just shy of 30 years. What part of LB is your shop in? Is it a full commercial area or are you near some residential or what I'll call white collar businesses like boutique shops or lawyer etc.?

It almost sounds like someone is out to either shut you down or force you to move, because you have a dirty, noisy unacceptable business in their mind. :mad:

Good luck and keep us posted.

Karl

[Matt Warfield]

John,

I wouldn't necessarily recommend seeking out certification for those machines. At my workplace, we need to have our computer system UL certified and it's a minimum of $8k a pop. The worst one was $27K but then it was fairly complex with 74 power supplies in the entire setup.

I second the suggestion of working with the inspector to resolve his concerns. There's no fun way about it but not showing him some respect and courtesy will only draw out the process longer.

Best of luck!!

Matt

[Earl Kelly]

John, I feel for you. I'm afraid your in a bad situation, that may not be simple or cheap and easy to fix.

Are there even replacement tools that would be UL approved? Does anyone know this? If so, that would be one thing to do, sell those pieces and replace them with a UL listed piece.

I'm glad I'm out in the country, before I would meet their demands, I would close shop and move out of CA. I'm sorry, but I believe their demands are unreasonable.

[John Scane]

John,

For a long time LA county would only recognise UL or LA City Labs as the aceptable testing labratory. Now they recognise several other labs including CSA. So if any of the equiptment has a CSA label that will do. Other then that Id try to work with the inspectors and see if by replacing the motors and motor controlers with approved devices will meet there criteria. It might be fairly easy and not too expensive to buy new Baldor or leeson motors that have a label. If you need some help with this PM me and I'd be glad to swing by you shop and help you out.

On both the Onieda and the Oliver are a Baldor and Leeson motors. But I was told that they want to see the UL on the nameplate for the machine as a whole and that just because a part of the machine might be UL listed that doesn't cut it for the unit as a whole.

[John Scane]

At least he hasn't asked you to install sprinklers yet.... Has he?:eek:

This is the electrical inspector......I have the fire inspector coming out after I get the electric passed...... But I'll tell you that they already mentioned it several times down at city hall when I was submitting plans:(

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Sure glad Mom and Dad yanked me outta Cali when I was 2 months old (adopted). I can't think of a more PITA place to live with all the regs and permits.

Sure sorry you have to endure this, sounds like a big mess. Tell ya what I'd do. I'd remove the three machines, then get certified and promptly move the machines back in the first weekend afterwards.

Red tape is getting out of hand everywhere as cities and towns search for more ways to reap benefits from our businesses....just makes me tired. It does sound like you got a stickler for an inspector. I'd also do what I could to help him get out of your hair. Now here's the 64k question. Is the inspection a yearly thing? If so you might want to get all three of those machines on ebay and replace them with those that are UL listed. Especially if he can blast in there anytime and bust you for having them in the shop.

[John Scane]

Is it a full commercial area or are you near some residential or what I'll call white collar businesses like boutique shops or lawyer etc.?

Karl

My shop is in an all comercial area it's right next to the lovely LA river and the 710 fwy.

[Michael Gibbons]

John, How long were you in business before they started hassling you? Maybe you could say you were grandfathered in or some lawyer type saying like that.

Mike

[John Scane]

I can't start to tell you what a PITA this has been. I thought it would be a simple matter to get a business license. Was I way wrong! From the beggining I've never gotten a straight answer out of anyone from city hall. I had a team inspection last FEB where I was told I needed to submit plans to building, planning and fire to get the permits necessarry for my license. I was also told that I couldn't apply for the permits for the dust collection duct or electric and that I had to have a licensed contractors pull them. I had to pay an architect to do plans that showed the whole shop, a site plan for the whole area and where all the tools would be placed, etc, etc. I had to pay an electrician to do electrical plans and pull the permits for those. This has cost me several thousand dollars already. I can't afford to pay someone to UL list my machines ( not that I would even consider it since it's completely rediculous ). If I wasn't in a lease till June and had another option for setting up a shop I would just move. I've lost 2 months of shop time and I can't work in my shop without the possibility of being slapped with a fine and a misdemenor. The worst thing is I still have the fire inspection, building inspection and another team inspection before I can get my license, not to mention all the fees that go along with them........ I'm ready to go POSTAL!!! :mad:

[Mark Singer]

John,
WOW that is a shame! I really don't know what the answer is...try to get the machines certified

[Barry O'Mahony]

Sure glad Mom and Dad yanked me outta Cali when I was 2 months old (adopted). I can't think of a more PITA place to live with all the regs and permits.It's not just California; I'm it's the same in any urban area. I'm sure it's worse in NYC, and worse still in Chicago. Commerical spaces are held to higher standards than residential, especially if you have employees and the OSHA inspector shows up.

This might sometimes seems silly, but I remember an incident here in Oregon several years ago, where I guy installed a waste-oil stove in his shop. He didn't get a permit. A few years later there was a fire in the shop, and some firefighters lost their lives. The shop owner went to jail for manslaughter, for his gross negligence of improperly installing the stove and without the proper permits and inspections.

[John A. Williams]

John, Sorry to hear about that. You can bring that Oliver over to my house and set it up in my garage. 10 miles isn't too far to drive just to joint an edge is it? Seriously though, I feel for ya. Consider moving to a little shop in Signal Hill.
John

[Guy Baxter]

John,
As I see it, the problem here is the inspector, not the equipment. Ask what machinery they object too, and remove it. . . .

John,

I agree with removing the equipment. Then, after you get your permit, move it back.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." - Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P. J. O'Rourke

[Mark Rios]

John,

I agree with removing the equipment. Then, after you get your permit, move it back.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." - Ronald Reagan, August 15, 1986

"Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys." - P. J. O'Rourke


Are you folks ACTUALLY encouraging someone to do something illegal? Are you willing to share the liability? The codes are there for a reason. Sometimes you will get inspectors that really need a class in interpersonal relations but the codes and regulations are there for the safety of others, not just you. While I was a firefighter there were a number of fires, both commercial and residential, that were started by someone thinking that they were being railroaded by the evil inspector and that they knew better anyway and they went ahead and did things that were illegal and ended up damaging other folks property. Aside from the fire aspect, the city (any city) isn't trying to discourage businesses from starting up with any codes they put into place. That's where they get tax revenue from. They WANT the businesses there. But there are other factors involved besides your inconvenience, namely the safety and welfare of the OTHER businesses around you. If somone does something out of code and something happens, not only is there risk to the operator of the shop but also to the other employees, other businesses, the other businesses employees, and the building owner. Not to mention the danger to any rescue personnel that have to come and take care of the person(s) who were responsible in the first place.

I was raised in a family who owned body shops (talk about code compliance) and I've been in the building trade all my life and I've never understood why people complain and been afraid of permits and inspectors. Is it inconvenient and frustrating sometimes? Sure it is; Sometimes. But if someone is a person of good character and tries to think about a bigger picture instead of themselves then following the law shouldn't be oppressive.

It sounds like there are some good ideas being given to comply with the codes and the inspectors wishes that aren't too oppressive to get done, just perhaps time consuming. These sound like the better idea.

Hey, Just my opinion.

[Guy Baxter]

It sounds like there are some good ideas being given to comply with the codes and the inspectors wishes that aren't too oppressive to get done, just perhaps time consuming. These sound like the better idea.



Agreed. Especially after reading the post about the firefighters loosing their lives. My original post was rather flippant, and lacked good judgment.

John is an exceptionally gifted artist, designer, and woodworker. It is a bummer that he must jump through so many hoops to make a living at it. Resolving bureaucratic problems such as these can be very taxing on a small business. I do wish John the best at solving this quandary.

GB

[John Scane]

Thanks all for the suggestions and letting me vent and get it off my chest. It has been a weight around my neck for months now and I needed to complain to people that might understand and have some insight. One way or another it will get resolved....I'm not letting the MAN win !!!

I'll keep you updated.

thanks

[Cecil Arnold]

Mark and John, I don't want to get into an expertise thing here, but having spent 5 years as a firefighter, 5 years as an inspector, 10 years as an inspection supervisor, and an additional 10 years teaching fire protection at a community college, I think I can state, without disparaging inspectors, that they sometimes go beyond both the spirit and letter of code requirements.

John, unfortunately woodworking is considered to be a high hazard occupancy. This is partially due to the dust generated in the process and additionally to the amount of combustible materials throughout a facility. While the hazard level of dust is directly related to particulate size there is no provision that I am aware of that would differentiate between sanding and cutting dust, therefore codes are written, more or less, as one size fits all. I find it surprising therefore, that Oneida, who supplies commercial systems, does not have any certification that might be required for their system. I would speculate that the Dust Gorilla might not have a certification as a means of cost containment, but that is another issue. I guess what I am saying is that if there is a nationally recognized standard for dust collector systems, then one would think that Oneida would be aware of them and meet same. Additionally, I would think that in order to meet a standard the system would have to be installed by someone recognized as a system installer to insure that it met any existing standard for proper ducting material, bonding, and system integrity.

As I said in my earlier post, I think that MM should be able to provide you with the EC information on your band saw, and if the inspection authority is reasonable they should (unless they are totally rule-bound) be able to recognize alternative certification.

I still don't have an answer for the planer, and question the requirement.

I think it is most important that you treat the inspector with respect and at the same time question specifically what the requirements are. Ask for the specification or where you can get a copy of what they want you to comply with. Inquire if there are any alternative testing agencies that would be acceptable. Adopt the attitude that you just want to educate yourself in the area that the inspector is working in. Once you get the information then you are equipped to take on the man and win.

[John Scane]

Thanks Cecil,

I know that when I talked to Onieda they said they were going to go through the process of getting thier machines UL listed but that it became nearly impossible due to the type of machine it is. Because the machine as a whole must be certified and that would include the Duct....which could never be because it will always be a different configuration. They do make sure thier machines comply with the NFPA 664 code and under that code that my configuration and shop size are exempt me because I am under 5k sq ft. But the city of LB want the machine to be UL listed so I'll see how this flys with them.
The MiniMax i'm still looking into and I know the motor on the Oliver is UL listed so hopefully that will be good enough.

Thanks for your advice

[Mark Rios]

Mark and John, I don't want to get into an expertise thing here, but having spent 5 years as a firefighter, 5 years as an inspector, 10 years as an inspection supervisor, and an additional 10 years teaching fire protection at a community college, I think I can state, without disparaging inspectors, that they sometimes go beyond both the spirit and letter of code requirements.

John, unfortunately woodworking is considered to be a high hazard occupancy. This is partially due to the dust generated in the process and additionally to the amount of combustible materials throughout a facility. While the hazard level of dust is directly related to particulate size there is no provision that I am aware of that would differentiate between sanding and cutting dust, therefore codes are written, more or less, as one size fits all. I find it surprising therefore, that Oneida, who supplies commercial systems, does not have any certification that might be required for their system. I would speculate that the Dust Gorilla might not have a certification as a means of cost containment, but that is another issue. I guess what I am saying is that if there is a nationally recognized standard for dust collector systems, then one would think that Oneida would be aware of them and meet same. Additionally, I would think that in order to meet a standard the system would have to be installed by someone recognized as a system installer to insure that it met any existing standard for proper ducting material, bonding, and system integrity.

As I said in my earlier post, I think that MM should be able to provide you with the EC information on your band saw, and if the inspection authority is reasonable they should (unless they are totally rule-bound) be able to recognize alternative certification.

I still don't have an answer for the planer, and question the requirement.

I think it is most important that you treat the inspector with respect and at the same time question specifically what the requirements are. Ask for the specification or where you can get a copy of what they want you to comply with. Inquire if there are any alternative testing agencies that would be acceptable. Adopt the attitude that you just want to educate yourself in the area that the inspector is working in. Once you get the information then you are equipped to take on the man and win.


Cecil, I agree with everything you say, including your advice to John. My concern wasn't (necessarily) with John. As far as I can remember, his posts weren't asking for ways to break the law or to do anything illegal but to find ways (however frustrating) to get his tools passed at the least expense, and least amount of headache. What made me finally feel like posting was the encouragement from some members for him to commit fraud and hide his tools and break the law. Whether during my time doing code enforcement with the fire dept., during my fire officer training (which as you know includes fire inspections and code compiance), or as an individual, or as a superintendant on large and small jobsites, I just have never believed in trying to hide work (or in this case tools) from being inspected and actively trying to shirk or break the law. Yes, it's frustrating and maddening sometimes. But, to me, it's a matter of integrity and character. Throughout my life, again whether it was code compliance in the autobody trade or in the construction trades, It ALWAYS worked out better for me to be up front and honest with the inspectors. After knowing that I was being upfront and honest and wasn't trying to get away with anything, inspectors were ALWAYS willing to work with me to get through any specific concern with the least amount of trouble. Sorry, but it bothers me on a deep level to hear people so eager and willing to break the law.

It sounds like John is gritting his teeth and trying to comply and I hope it works out for him quickly so that he can get back to making his wonderful stuff.