Kitchen Cabinets

[Steve Gojevic]

Hi:

I have a lot of woodworking tools (for hobby and diy home stuff). One thing I don't have is a track saw. I have used my table saw, circular saw, and bandsaw to cover my cutting needs.

I will be making kitchen cabinets for my house from prefinished maple plywood that I got a good deal on. This means breaking down 4x8 sheets. I don't have enough room to maneuver a sheet on my table saw. I would like to use a track saw to do this.

My table saw is an early 90s Sears Craftsman that I made into a large table surface with outfeed tables. It has a Delta T square fence that I added. I don't think it's up to the accuracy level to make precision cuts for kitchen cabinets. In the future I plan on getting a Sawstop (my kids will be learning how to use the table saw).

I just noticed that Milwaukee came out with a cordless track saw. I have a bunch of Milwaukee 18V tools, batteries, and chargers already. The price is at the high end, but it seems to get good reviews on youtube. It seems that any of the better track saws are going to cost in the same price area as the Milwaukee. My plan is to buy the bare Milwaukee track saw ($399) since I have 18V batteries already. Then I will buy a couple of 55" tracks to allow cutting plywood in either crosscut or rip. People who own the good brands of track saws say that you can make the final cuts on the track saw and avoid re-cutting on the table saw.

Anyone have any suggestions? Am I overlooking something? Comments from experienced woodworkers are always welcome.

Thanks
Steve

[Holmes Anderson]

There is a recent thread https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?301476-Weird-tracksaw-precision on the subject of track saw accuracy. Some say they can get accurate parallel and squaring cuts with great care but even with parallel guides and a rail square I think it will be difficult to get the accuracy of a decent table saw. With cabinet size panels you may see out-of-square deviations as large as 1/8" using a track saw. The track saw is great for breaking down full sheets in place and giving you at least one good edge but you will probably get better crosscut accuracy with a sled on your table saw. If your fence isn't good then maybe buy some parallel guides for the track saw. I use a Makita corded track saw and it is good.

[John Pendery]

For years before buying a sliding table saw I used a combination of track saw and cabinet saw and built a lot of kitchens and casework. It was much slower and lacked the instant fool proof accuracy of a large sliding table saw, but you can absolutely get great results with the combination of a track saw and table saw. Since you are doing it for yourself it’s even less of an obstacle.

[Richard Verwoest]

I use the Bora guides and their skill saw base plate. With a couple little tweaks to their guide, I get nice straight cuts. I enlarged the screw holes on the extension straight edge and added better screws. When joining 2 rails for long rip cuts I use another ground straight edge to line up the 2 lengths and tighten the screws. And since there is a zero clearance strip, all I need to do is line up where I want my cat and lock it down.

[Steve Gojevic]

For years before buying a sliding table saw I used a combination of track saw and cabinet saw and built a lot of kitchens and casework. It was much slower and lacked the instant fool proof accuracy of a large sliding table saw, but you can absolutely get great results with the combination of a track saw and table saw. Since you are doing it for yourself it’s even less of an obstacle.

So you still used the table saw to do the final cuts, after cutting on the track saw?

I am wondering if I should buy the Sawstop and just use a cheap track with my circular saw to break down the sheets to manageable size for the table saw.

I would still have to make a sled for the table saw that was big enough to handle kitchen cabinet panels (24" x 30" approx).

Steve

[John Kananis]

Track saws are great (I love mine) and all but none of them will come close to the precision of a table saw. Use the track to break down and get clean edges. Then finish cut on the ts. Sled or small slider attachment (the latter being new to me but I'm enjoying it) on the ts is a must imho.

[Russell Hayes]

I am almost done building my first set of kitchen cabinets from hardwood plywood. I have a makita track saw and a cabinet table saw. There is no reason you can't get the same quality and accuracy from either. The advantage of the table saw is repeatable cuts but for full sheets you may need a helper. The advantage of the track saw is you can break down sheets on the floor on top of a sheet of foam insulation or what I'm doing, on a temporary table on sawhorses. And with a track saw you shouldn't need a helper. I built a simple hinged swing lift arm attached to the sawhorse table to get the sheet up on it. I cut most everything to final size with the track saw. I cut the cabinet bottoms in one piece with the stretchers, nailer strips and drawer dividers since they need to be the same length then rip the 4" wide stretchers etc on the table saw.
I personally have had trouble getting accurate cuts on my table saw with a full sheet of 3/4 ply working without help. It's just too much weight to wrestle with. I've bound up the blade and knocked a contractor was out of alignment in the past trying to do just that.
Good luck I'm sure you will be proud of it in the end.

[Tom M King]

I wouldn't buy a track saw for one set of cabinets. A straight edge guide will work fine. I've built stuff for a living for 48 years and still don't own a track saw. This doesn't have the good sawdust control, and you have to hold the saw against the fence, but it will cut a perfectly straight line just fine.

It's 1/4" plywood base with a good factory edge of 3/4 cabinet plywood for a fence. Leave the saw side of it wide enough to trim with the saw you're going to use. Once trimmed with that saw, you can lay that edge of the guide right on the marks. Remember to cut on the correct side of the line.

[Jim Becker]

1) A track saw can be a major benefit to folks when working with sheet goods, in particular. Even when they have a big-butt saw, it can be cumbersome to maneuver full sheets and typical .75" material is quite heavy.

2) With good measuring and careful attention to detail, you can go right to finished dimension and not need to use your table saw for most cuts

3) The new Milwaukee track saw is EXCELLENT, based on the early reviews and now production units that folks I follow have reviewed. It has all the benefits that one will expect based on what Festool and others have done plus some good engineering that makes bevel cuts and other things accurate and easy. It's also compatible with the same tracks for folks who already have them from Festool, Makita and some others. (not Dewalt) And...it uses the M18 battery setup which is "yugely" popular with the commercial crowd as well as many others who own M18 for their own purposes. I don't have any Milwaukee tools (other than a hefty 75th anniversary Sawzall) but if I wanted a cordless track saw, they'd be getting my money for the saw to run on my Festool tracks and MFT.

[John Pendery]

So you still used the table saw to do the final cuts, after cutting on the track saw?

I am wondering if I should buy the Sawstop and just use a cheap track with my circular saw to break down the sheets to manageable size for the table saw.

I would still have to make a sled for the table saw that was big enough to handle kitchen cabinet panels (24" x 30" approx).

Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, sorry I was not clear. I used the track saw to break down the sheets, but ran them through the table saw more often than not to reach final dimension. This was more due to the fact that the table saw with its fence lends itself well to the repetitive dimensions kitchen cabinets dictate than the inability to make accurate cuts with a track saw. With parallel guides and attention to detail you could likely get away with no table saw at all. Some will inevitably say otherwise. A track saw will give much cleaner cuts than a normal circular saw with a cheap guide. I use festool track saws, so can’t speak to the Milwaukee, but they have a replaceable zero clearance edge guide and “splinter guard” that nearly eliminates and chip out.

it sounds like you are already planning on purchasing the saw stop, which will speed things up considerably. I would go ahead and buy the bare track saw and a track as well as they are very useful for all kinds of things, and you will likely be able to pull off your entire build with it alone along with a couple simple jigs and attention. I realize I just suggested to buy both so I’m sorry if that’s not helpful!

John

[Marc Fenneuff]

I have a Makita track saw that I use to break down stuff to make all the final cuts on the table saw. I use a sled on the table saw, with a single fence, for squaring cabinet carcass panels.

I would also not buy a track saw for one project, especially if it made a big dent in the budget. That said, I prefer my track saw to a circular saw + guide for keeping the dust down.

I'm a table saw guy so this is what works for me. But a lot of guys say that if you are crunched for space, you can do all these sheet goods operations with a track saw and a good square. I don't know if/when I'll be able to justify the expense of a parallel edge guide for the track saw.

Make sure you have a good method to square your carcass panels, especially if using side-mount drawer slides (ask me how I know this).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I find it difficult with my track saw to get a perfect square or parallel cut, but I have had it close enough. The thing with a system such as Festool is that they have a way to get at least the square cut.

I have often used my track saw to "joint" an edge, works great.

I have used home made tracks for a regular circular saw a few times with success. So, if you just wanted to dip your toe in the water, just make one. It will not be as nice as a pro one probably, but you can get a feel for what you will be doing. If you intend to clean it up on the table saw, it probably does not matter if you just draw a line and follow it free hand because you will clean it up on the saw; but you waste more wood.

Andrew

[Steve Gojevic]

Ok, I have to make a decision soon!

As of now, I think I am going to buy the Milwaukee track saw and two of their 55" tracks so I can make the cuts on plywood.

Then, I'll try using it for the final cuts. If it works, then I will make the cabinets using only the track saw without upgrading to the Sawstop.

If it doesn't work out, then I will be "forced" (haha) to upgrade to the Sawstop.

Steve

[Joel Gelman]

"My table saw is an early 90s Sears Craftsman that I made into a large table surface with outfeed tables. It has a Delta T square fence that I added. I don't think it's up to the accuracy level to make precision cuts for kitchen cabinets. In the future I plan on getting a Sawstop (my kids will be learning how to use the table saw)."

It seems interesting that you would go with a track saw in part because you don't think your table saw is up to the accuracy to make cabinets. If that were me, first thing I would ask myself is why it isn't accurate enough. Is it that a setup issue or a saw limitation issue. If setup issue, you dial it in. If not accurate enough for a cabinet, and no fix, seems like you should get rid of it and get your Saw Stop, which would perhaps offer a safety advantage to your kids who will be learning how to use a table saw.

[Phil Gaudio]

FWIW: I use these foam board insulation sheets with good results: lay them down on the garage floor and then lay your sheet goods on top of them. Great way to handle sheet goods while protecting the surface of the sheet and the blade of the saw.

[John M Wilson]

If it works, then I will make the cabinets using only the track saw without upgrading to the Sawstop.

I suggest looking up Peter Millard (10MinuteWorkshop) on Youtube. He is a retired professional woodworker in London, and has built (and documented on video) a ton of cabinetry primarily using a track saw. He has many tips & techniques for getting professional grade accuracy from a very tiny shop. I'm sure you can find a video that will give you an idea of how to accomplish your plans.

[Jim Dwight]

John beat me to it. Peter Millard is not the only youtuber who does a lot with a track saw (even picture frames) but he is a good one. There are techniques to using a track saw that support improved speed and accuracy. Cutting to a mark is not my favorite but it works better when you make the mark with a 0.5mm pencil and take care to put it where you really want it. Very different from rougher work. Better is to use a jig to position the track. That also supports repeat cuts. Peter uses that sort of jig. I made mine that works a bit different but is exactly the same idea.

Unless you want to make a Paulk style workbench (another youtuber who uses a track saw a lot, he is a professional trim carpenter) or a MFT equivalent you will need an accurate and fairly large square of some sort for cross cuts. I use a plywood square I got somewhere with a fence attached. I think it is 18 inches.

If you are working in your shop you could use a corded saw. I'd like to have that Milwaukee too, it is getting great reviews. I use a corded DeWalt at home and a "Evolution" saw volunteering at church. The Evolution is an inexpensive saw that works fine and can use 7.25 inch blades like a circular saw. It's blade guard is also like a circular saw. My point is just to let you know that there are alternatives, I think you picked a good way to go, especially since you already have batteries.

There are also less expensive alternatives to Milwaukee tracks. Powertec is one brand. Nothing against Milwaukee but you might want to see how much an "off brand" would save you. You can use other name brand tracks but they probably cost at least as much as the Milwaukee.

I've made cabinets using nothing but my DeWalt track saw and it went fine. Years ago, before track saws were available, I made an entire kitchen using a table saw no more capable than yours and a circular saw with a guide to break down the sheets. So the people telling you that can work are right. But I'd much rather do it with a track saw. But I'd make some sort of jig to help with positioning the track and make sure you have a good way to mark right angles.

[Terry Therneau]

One very handy accessory to a track saw is a saw table -- I made one years ago and use it often. 6' x 2.5' rectangle of 2x4 with 3 extra crosspieces; when put together be careful to put all screws in the bottom half. Add a pair of what I call "church table legs", the kind on the tables that are quickly set up and taken down again ; I think they cost me $15 at the big box store. The legs fold and it hangs on a wall. Set the saw about 1/8 to 1/4 deeper cut than your material; those extra kerfs in the 2x4 don't mean a thing. A plywood scrap and a clamp makes it a good stand for a miter saw or small table saw --- mine travels along to the jobsite when working on one of the kid's houses.

The knees are getting too creaky for the styrofoam on the floor method.

Terry

[Thomas McCurnin]

I built two kitchens with a Craftsman table saw and a simple Skill type saw and a metal straight edge. I used a Porter Cable sidewinder trim saw which was very light weight to handle but one had to go slow. Assuming these are face frame cabinets, a gap of a 32nd is no big deal. Even a 16th wouldn't show.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The knees are getting too creaky for the styrofoam on the floor method.+1.
The table I use at home in the shop is one from Gary Williams, referenced in this thread:
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?208368-Show-me-your-plywood-cutting-tables-(please)!
I can't take crawling around on my knees anymore.
Cutting things a waist level is so much more civilized.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Just to throw out another idea. My vertical panel saw is becoming more and more important as the years go by. I received doctors orders to stop wrangling things like sheet goods several years ago. Of course I ignore the recommendation. With the vertical panel saw I am able to continue wrangling sheet goods. My little saw is good enough for final cuts. I had to create a full length bottom rail for it. Dad has an original Safety Speed Cut that was used to make cabinets for over 50 years. He still uses it at 85!

Milwaukee Panel Saw — 8 1/4in. Blade Size, Model# 6480-20 | Northern Tool (https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200193574_200193574)

[John TenEyck]

Even if a track saw can be made to be accurate enough, why? Your table saw can do anything a track saw can do, faster, easier, and with accuracy at least as good and usually better. Use a circular saw to break down sheets and then cut them to final, accurate, dimensions on your table saw. I cut dozens of cabinets on a 1980's Sears table saw, with the crappy stock fence. I eventually put a better fence on it; it's easier to use but accuracy is on the operator in both cases. As someone else said, if there are issues besides the fence, fix them. I still use that Sears saw with a big crosscut sled for cutting cabinet parts square. It's very, very accurate and parts come out square without burn marks.

Cutting sheet goods on the floor is for young people. I do it on sawhorses with a 2 x 4 grid to support the sheet and parts cut from it. It breaks down for storage in less than 5 minutes.

My experience with my Milwaukee battery powered circular saw (not a brushless) is that it lasts about 2 rip cuts on a sheet of 3/4" plywood and the 6 ah battery is drained. You'd need 12 ah batteries for sure, and more than one, to do any real work with it. Breaking down multiple sheets of 3/4" plywood is a job for a corded saw.

My 2 cents.

John

[Jim Becker]

E.

Cutting sheet goods on the floor is for young people. I do it on sawhorses with a 2 x 4 grid to support the sheet and parts cut from it. It breaks down for storage in less than 5 minutes.


The trade-off is whether kneeling on the floor (with appropriate padding) is more tedious for the individual vs lifting the sheets up onto a support structure. :) :D

[Bruce Wrenn]

One very handy accessory to a track saw is a saw table -- I made one years ago and use it often. 6' x 2.5' rectangle of 2x4 with 3 extra crosspieces; when put together be careful to put all screws in the bottom half. Add a pair of what I call "church table legs", the kind on the tables that are quickly set up and taken down again ; I think they cost me $15 at the big box store. The legs fold and it hangs on a wall. Set the saw about 1/8 to 1/4 deeper cut than your material; those extra kerfs in the 2x4 don't mean a thing. A plywood scrap and a clamp makes it a good stand for a miter saw or small table saw --- mine travels along to the jobsite when working on one of the kid's houses.

The knees are getting too creaky for the styrofoam on the floor method.

Terry A winner, we have a winner! First saw this idea in FWW, Aug 2000, and have been using it since. My table is just under seven feet long, and three feet wide. The reason for the seven feet length, is it will lay flat in bed of trailer. Three foot width, means I can rip a sheet in half lengthwise, and not have it fall off bench. I use it with a shop made guide, and a DeWalt 364 saw. I chose the 364 because you can adjust it so blade is parallel to the edge of the base. Break sheet down into managable sizes, and then cut exact size using table saw. Cross cut to length, using a NYW style panel cutter on TS. Over working lifetime (since Aug 2000) built HUNDREDS of cabinets for several local YMCA's using this method. Instead of lifting sheets onto table, add a couple of swinging cleats to side rail of table. Swing cleats out, lay table on it's side on floor. Load sheet goods on cleats, and lift table and sheet goods up at one time. Last week, replaced top pieces for the FIFTH time, hopefully my last!

[mreza Salav]

I built the cabinets in our house (and it was a lot of cabinets) and used tracksaw to cut down about 80 sheets of plywood. Everything was accurate to 1/64" and didn't need to use table sawnon anything.
You can buy or build (as I did) parallel guides and you get repeated and accurate cuts.
I have a 118" and a 55" track.

[Dan Rude]

Take a look at Nick Engler's Workshop Companion Video on YouTube "Cutting & Handling Plywood in a One-Person Shop". He covers handling Plywood sheets and making a cutting guide.

[Alex Zeller]

For those of you who aren't easily able to manhandle sheet good (3/4" plywood can be tough) look into how glass shops deal with large plate glass. If needed they will be carried but usually they use a simple glass dolly. While they are expensive to buy they are also easy to build. The table tilts so there's almost no lifting. It wouldn't work well with a table saw but it would complement a track saw very nicely.
495324
495325

[Jim Becker]

Alex, that tilt table thing in the second image reminds me of similar functionality (but done differently) that comes with the Festool STM 1800. I've been seriously thinking about whether to do something like that or to just build a cutting table surface and still lift manually.

[Jim Dwight]

I just is not true that breaking down sheet goods with a circular saw and cutting to finish size on the table saw is "faster and easier" than cutting to finish size with a track saw. It may be fast and easy enough for you. I have no problem with that. But I can cut sheet goods to final size on the trailer I brought them home in and not have to pick up a full sheet. I handle pieces once, not twice. Currently I have and use my pickup to bring the wood home. But I can slide the sheets from the bed of the truck onto my worktable/out feed table/ track saw cutting station. I slide a partial sheet of foam board insulation under the sheet. Then I cut it in one step to final dimension. Again I pick up pieces, not a sheet. If you use a circular saw or a track saw to cut to near final dimensions then you have an additional step to feed what is potentially still a pretty good sized piece through your table saw. You can bunch up cuts through the table saw but that involves more handling of partial sheets. You can use a jig to make repeat cuts that are exactly the same with the track saw and not have to make them one right after the other.

In reality, once you learn to use it, the track saw is much faster and significantly easier than a circular saw + table saw. I would not want to get rid of my PCS and I use it where I think it makes sense including on cabinets. But I am also very happy I have a good track saw so I can use that where it is the best tool in my opinion. I think these two tools complement each other very well. I do not see them as competitors.

[John TenEyck]

Whatever works best for you, Jim, is best for you. I prefer to rough cut with a circular saw, carry the long pieces to my TS, and then gang rip them to final width. All I need with the circular saw is a straight cut, no worries about measuring or using a spacer to get finished cuts. For me, it's faster to cut a whole run's worth of cabinet sides with one set up of the TS. Then I cut them to length using my large sled and a stop. Again, one set up.

How you handle the sheets off the truck is a separate process, and yours is very well thought out. No truck in my garage so I have to use other means.

John

[Vince Shriver]

Would clamping the ends of the tracks to work piece then improve the accuracy of the cut, or is there more to it than that?

[Jim Becker]

Would clamping the ends of the tracks to work piece the improve the accuracy of the cut, or is there more to it than that?
It can help keep things from getting bumped by the human...the tracks are generally pretty good at staying put, but with long cuts in particular, repositioning the human can sometimes affect the track, especially with longer cuts and long tracks. So a clamp at both ends can be a method to reduce risk. The saw will cut absolutely accurately to the track...so if you move the track, well... ;) I do rarely clamp, but sometimes it just feels like the right thing to do and I honor "my gut".

[Rich Engelhardt]

Would clamping the ends of the tracks to work piece then improve the accuracy of the cut, or is there more to it than that?
I prefer to clamp the tracks when I'm making critical cuts on expensive plywood.
If I'm cutting Luan or 5.5mm underlayment I usually don't bother with the clamps.

I think I'd clamp everything if I had a set of quick clamps instead of the kludgy Festool screw clamps.

Clamps don't really help accuracy - but - they do eliminate an annoying (and expensive) "oops".

[Steve Gojevic]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, experiences, and opinions!

This is what I decided to do:

1) Buy the Milwaukee Track Saw and see if I can get final cuts using it.

2) If not, I will use the track saw to cut down the sheets and try to use my Craftsman table saw for the final cuts.

3) If my Craftsman doesn't do the job, I will buy a Sawstop table saw.

I don't mind having the track saw even if it doesn't end up doing the final cuts (I think it should if I do things properly).
, I will be making face frame cabinets, so I have a little more "wiggle room" than if they were not face frames.

John M Wilson, thanks for suggesting the Peter Millard videos. I have watched them and they are very helpful.

Terry Therneau, yes I plan to make a saw table for the track saw. It will be similar to what you describe.

Jim Dwight, Thank you for the Powertec track suggestions. Their tracks are almost half of the price of the Milwaukee tracks.

Has anyone used track guide alignment tools like the below item. I will be taking the tracks apart often and want to align them as quickly as possible:

https://betterleytools.com/products/straight-line-connector-for-aligning-track-saw-rails.html


Thanks Again
Steve

[Michael Rutman]

I may be the best to answer this as I was in exactly this position before I started up workshop refurbish. I had never made a cabinet before and have made exactly one using similar tools to what you have. For a first attempt I got pretty close. So, what can I recommend. I'm also purely hobbyist, so my skills are nowhere near most of the people on this list.

I bought the Festool TS55 and wow, it's amazing. I hear good things about the Milwaukee, so whatever works for you should be great. I can say the TS55 anti-chip works well, none of the plywood chipped.

I bought the Kreg 720 Pro to do the joining and love it. Next time, though, I'll try the domino for the face, but for carcass, I'm sticking with the Kreg.

Now the negative, remember, first cabinet I made. It is definitely about 1/8 not even and that means the drawers aren't right. You can't see it until you try to open a drawer. That mistake was because I did the trick of lining up the track saw using a square board. Yeah, not accurate enough, I have the Woodpecker attachments on order, I'll let you know if they are amazing or not. I will say it's very very hard to notice you aren't square over a 48" cut.

I can't remember how much I used the tablesaw, but I did need to square some of the cuts. I suspect I wouldn't have had the 1/8 difference had I cut everything.

The one place where I felt it was dangerous was I didn't have a large enough router table to safely do the dados. I have since gotten a large router table with an Incra fence (waiting on workshop to try again).

One thing I am unhappy with is the face, it turned out to be much harder than I expected to size it right. Might want to consider banding instead of facing.

Other things, hrrrm, I cut the plywood on styrofoam on the ground, never again. Was going to buy a Bora Centipede, but I had the money to get the STM 1800 instead. Both are excellent for different purposes, but not having to bend over is key. Fatigue will cause less accuracy.

Final thoughts, wife said it was close to being allowed for kitchen cabinets, need a bit more practice first. Good thing I (almost) have a new workshop that needs cabinets!

[Dave Sabo]

Steve _ may I suggest you get the Festool holy rails instead of the Milwaukee ones. They're only 20bucks more a piece and will give you more options going forward. If you sell them later they will almost certainly bring more than Milwaukee ones on the used market. Forget powertec tracks if you want to join them together. They won't be accurate enough . There's a reason they don't cost as much. Same reason you're not getting their saw.

https://www.festoolusa.com/products/guide-systems/guide-rails/496939---fs-14002-lr-32#Overview


2nd - forget the Betterly gizmo. It's not needed. Your most accurate straight edge or level will produce the same results for free. If you get these connectors for whichevee festool compatible rail you choose , you likely won't even need a straight edge. JUST BUY EM !

https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/grc-12-self-aligning-guide-rail-connectors/




(https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/grc-12-self-aligning-guide-rail-connectors/)p.s. leave a business card's width gap between rails when you connect them

[Steve Gojevic]

Dave Sabo - Thanks for the reply on the Powertec rails. I was hoping to get some comments on them. It wouldn't make sense to buy a track saw for accuracy and then get cheap tracks to negate the accuracy.

The TSO guide rail connectors look good and are a lot cheaper than the Betterly device.

Michael Rutman - I am planning to install my router into the table saw extension leaf that I made. This will allow me to use the table saw fence with the router and also allow a large table surface for stability.

I also have the Kreg pocket jig and plan to use it for the face frames.

I am definitely NOT going to cut on the floor on a foam sheet. I am making a cutting table with foam as the top "sacrifical" layer to bring the sheet up to a comfortable level. I just got done installing ceramic tile on my kitchen floor(along with radiant heat tubing) and I'm not anxious to do more work kneeling on the floor!

Steve

[Michael Rutman]

Glad to see you won't make my mistakes :)

[Steve Gojevic]

Glad to see you won't make my mistakes :)

Oh, I've made plenty of my own!:D

[Jim Becker]

Before eschewing the Milwaukee rails, there is a locking feature that may depend upon the way the rail is machined. Kyle talks about this at about 6:00 in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrPiwFaGnes

[Bruce Wrenn]

Before jumping into cabinet making, get hold of a copy of Danny Proulx's book, "Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets." Changed my method of making cabinets

[Dave Sabo]

Before eschewing the Milwaukee rails, there is a locking feature that may depend upon the way the rail is machined.

It is.
The rail's outer/upper channel has an xtra lip extruded into it like Makita's.

- but -

While it's a nice feature, it's far from necessary for most people. Festool ( inventor of track saw) still hasn't seen a need for that feature. It'll work with out it, though not as well. Cabinet carcasses don't use 45deg for construction , so it's kinda moot for the stated purpose.

For me the biggest thing will be - are Milwaukee's rails straight and consistent? I know Festool's are and that's part of the reason they're more $$$. I know Powertec's aren't. I know Makita's are a crap shoot. Having a tracksaw with a rail that's not straight is kinda pointless. Have two rails that are slightly different is gonna make for a frustrating experience on long cuts.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Other good books:

Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets by Jim Tolpin. This is an older book, and Jim was a finish carpenter by trade (not a furniture maker), now operates a school, but the techniques are excellent, and quite frankly, much less complicated that you and others may envision. He didn't have a track saw and does not use dados. Strictly plywood casework, air nailer, face frames, and frame and panel doors. You'll laugh at the dated cabinet designs (arched doors and melamine) but solid shop built cabinets, the construction is rock solid and simple.

Illustrated Cabinet Making by Bill Hylton. Hylton is a Fine Woodworking guy, so traditional hardwood construction, mortise and tenons and no pin nailers.

Danny Proulx's book, like Tolpins, is a bit dated and he uses techniques used in 1970, again with arched oak doors and the like. Again, solid advice as to old school construction.

Complete Kitchena Cabinet Maker by Robert Lang. One of the more complete and thorough books on the subject, but like Tolpin and Proulx, the material is dated (biscuit joinery), but again, good advice and solid old school construction.

[Steve Gojevic]

Several of you have suggested Danny Proulx's book on Kitchen Cabinet building.

As I read your suggestions now, Danny's book is sitting next to my computer!

I first read his book about 7 years ago when I was contemplating building the kitchen cabinets. I brought it out again now because I am actually going to build them. The book is from the local library. They also have the other books suggested, but at different locations so I didn't get them yet. I like Danny's methods, but I am going to update some of the actual methods.

Danny suggests building the face frames so they are flush with the inside of the carcass sides. This makes mounting drawer slides easier since you don't have to shim out the slides. Most of the other books show the face frames extending past the carcass inside by about 1/4" or so. Any reasons not to mount the face frame flush with the inside to make mounting slides easier?

Based on the reviews, I am NOT getting the Powertec tracks. I might as well get the Milwaukee tracks since the name brand tracks are all close in price.

Nobody locally has the track saw or tracks in stock. Home Depot's web site claims that they can deliver the Milwaukee track saw to my house in a couple of days. However, they don't have the tracks in stock and no projected date when they will have them. I am going to buy the saw from HD because it will be easier to return it if I don't like it (unlikely but possible that I won't like it). Northern tool has the tracks in stock, so I will buy the tracks from them. I will also order the TSO guide rail connectors.

Steve

[Ole Anderson]

WAIT!!! If a project as grand as new kitchen cabinets doesn't justify a new table saw, nothing will. DO IT!!!

I just finished up breaking down 6 sheets of MDF for new kitchen cabinet doors for a project at church. 43 doors total. Had some help from a fellow woodworker/structural engineer. Using my 10 YO Grizzly tracksaw. Supported a sheet of 1" foamboard on a sheet of 1/2" ply on sawhorses as a cutting table. Wishing I had replaced the rubber strips on the tracks first as they were worn down by up to 1/16". Used MaxCut2 for optimizing sheet layout. Being careful we could get within a sixteenth inch on dimensions. I would take every cut panel to the table saw to trim to exact size if not within 1/32, so easy with a good fence. One thing that helped with getting the track square with the cut edge is a shop made 21" square (5 cut method) of 1/2" ply with a lip on one edge that we could just bump the track up against. Took an hour per sheet to break down. BTW, it takes two old guys to move a sheet of 3/4" MDF.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I love not having to lay sheets flat before they are reduced.
The stowaway tilt table is over $7000.00 A full size vertical panel saw is half that
I still have my 5 foot and 9 foot tracks. I look forward to never using them again. (personal preference).

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[Jim Becker]

It is.
The rail's outer/upper channel has an xtra lip extruded into it like Makita's.

- but -

While it's a nice feature, it's far from necessary for most people. Festool ( inventor of track saw) still hasn't seen a need for that feature. It'll work with out it, though not as well. Cabinet carcasses don't use 45deg for construction , so it's kinda moot for the stated purpose.

For me the biggest thing will be - are Milwaukee's rails straight and consistent? I know Festool's are and that's part of the reason they're more $$$. I know Powertec's aren't. I know Makita's are a crap shoot. Having a tracksaw with a rail that's not straight is kinda pointless. Have two rails that are slightly different is gonna make for a frustrating experience on long cuts.

I agree that the feature may not be necessary, but wanted to call attention to it just in case it was. It's a really nice idea for many folks for sure if/when they are working on non-horizontal surfaces.

As to their rails, I would hope they are straight and consistent because Milwaukee is really wanting to pull back some business from Festool and Makita in the tracksaw space. But time will tell in that respect.

[Jack Frederick]

One thing that has helped me a great deal with my TS55 & FT track is a large MFT. I made the table with the Parf guide and it is dead nuts. There is a parf guide on the Classifieds now. I wouldn’t be without my SS, but like being able to take the saw to the work.

[Dennis Jarchow]

>>The TSO guide rail connectors look good and are a lot cheaper than the Betterly device.

One comment on the TSO rail connectors. I have them and use them with my Makita rails. They are very nice and much better than the stock Makita connectors. With my Makita rails, there is still enough play in the slots that they are not really self aligning. You still have to make sure the tracks are straight. Perhaps if you could tighten them down on a frictionless surface where the tracks could slide easily, they might work better. But on a bench or a sheet of foam board, I can easily get an 1/8" of misalignment with two 55" tracks. Also be aware that with any of the connectors, if you aren't careful about moving your joined tracks around, you can knock them out of alignment and not know it. A long track would eliminate this problem, but after ordering the Makita long track and having two of them arrive damaged or crooked I gave up.

I also have the Betterly alignment tool and it works well, but as others have mentioned a straight edge works too. The nice thing about the Betterly tool is it clamps the tracks in place while you tighten the connectors. I also clamp it back on my tracks when I am taking the tracks off my table to remove the cut pieces or to put a new sheet down to be sure they stay in alignment.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I would take the seats out of my Sienna or Honda van.
Go to the store or lumber yard.
Slide sheets of 4x8 plywood onto a horizontal cart - roll the cart to the van - slide the sheets in the van.

Drive home.

Drag my Gary Williams inspired cutting table out into the driveway (http://www.thewoodshop.20m.com/panel_cutting_table.htm). Set it up.

Open the back of the van & place my Sears bought version of these Harbor Freight roller supports (https://www.harborfreight.com/132-lb-capacity-roller-stand-68898.html) between the table and the back of the van so I could just slide the sheets one by one out and onto the cutting table.
No real lifting required & plenty easy enough for one person to do.

- I'm using a cordless Makita track saw now so I no longer bring the plywood home to cut it I cut it at the store. I made one of the Shop Notes portable flat surfaces mentioned in the link I posted earlier. I drilled out the four corners so they would accept the Veritas Platform Saddles (https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/work-surfaces/75861-veritas-platform-saddles). I put a 6 foot 1x4 on both sides & that's plenty of support for me to cut down a full sheet to "carcass size". I also use the larger saddles that accept a 2x4.

The Makita has the small lip that helps keep the saw on the track when cutting at an angle. Corner cabinets are cut at an angle as are other specialty carcasses, such a bowed cases and the ornate over range hoods so there is a definite use for that feature.
With it's twin 18V series wired batteries, the 36V Makita has way more power than any 18V saw and much longer run time. While I never really measured how long a set of batteries will run, I never seem to run out of battery at all during the course of a day. YYMV with a single battery saw.

Regarding tracks. I started with a corded Festool TS55EQ and Festool tracks. When I got the cordless Makita, I sold the Festool and it's tracks. The Festool on Festool tracs was just a smidge more accurate. Not much but, the difference was detectable.

In addition to the Makita I did pick up a set of TSO Self Aligning Connectors (https://tsoproducts.com/accessories/grc-12-self-aligning-guide-rail-connectors/). I've used them once so far and they seemed to work ok. It's hard to tell at this point.

I also picked up the Woodpecker's Parallel Guides w/Systainer (https://www.woodpeck.com/parallel-guide-system.html). Pricy yes - but - I'm 71 years old and I figure why deprive myself of something at this point. It's not like I'm going to spend money on travel or anything.

I have never figured out why there are so many people so dead set against track saws and dismiss them as an extravagance that's not needed.

I forgot to mention - the books. I read them all and even bought one. I watched a bunch of Youtube videos. I asked here at SMC.
Someone mentioned Marc Sommerfeld (https://www.sommerfeldtools.com/) and his method. I watched his Youtube videos and was sold. His process is stupid easy. If you go to Youtube and look for his name, he has a set of 4 videos called Cabinetmaking Made Easy. Even if you don't buy into his method it's worth the time to view it.

There's one other thing I found super useful. The Kreg Drawer Slide Jigs (https://www.kregtool.com/shop/cabinet-solutions/cabinet-drawer-shelf-jigs/drawer-slide-jig/KHI-SLIDE.html). These things are incredible. I had been using the Rockler one and saw a video of the Kreg ones. They way you can turn them around and support the drawer on them while you attach the side mount slides is worth every penny of the cost.

[John TenEyck]

I rarely use faceframes because I like the seamless look of Euro cabinets and because you lose space somewhere, but when I do I make them flush to the inside of the cabinet boxes, as Prouix advocates. You have more choices with hinges that mount inside the cabinet, and they are more rigid than those screwed to the faceframes.

John

[Jon Endres]

I know the OP has already made a decision but here's my experience. I built a whole house worth of cabinets in the basement of the unfinished house, including kitchen cabs and three bathroom vanities. I bought an EZ-Smart saw track and base and moved my Unisaw from my old house to the new one, and between those two tools and a few smaller tools (drill, impact driver, sander etc.) that was all I needed. I only used the table saw to cut the face frames; all of the cabinet sides were done with the EZ-Smart saw track. The KEY, if you don't have a fancy setup or a sliding table saw, is simply to check and double-check your measurements. I marked everything with an 0.5mm mechanical pencil and split the line, and checked square at every opportunity. Since 1/32" is 0.8mm, if you really think about it, how critical is that kind of accuracy for kitchen cabinets? I was pretty meticulous about it, but in the end, kitchen cabinets are just shop cabinets for a different kind of shop.

And for those of you commenting not to buy a tool for a single project - why not? What excuse do you need to buy a tool? I built a custom butternut breadboard dining table and benches for my son and daughter-in-law and bought a Domino XL700 just for that project. I figured that it would have cost at least that much to buy a similar-quality table, so why not build it and have a "free tool" left over? Same goes for the track saw. I'm probably going to replace the EZ-Smart with a legit track saw shortly, because they're out of business and the max depth of cut is only a hair over 1-1/2", and I've often needed more. I have another cabinet job coming up and I feel that buying the new Milwaukee saw is a perfect opportunity to trade up.

[Jim Dwight]

I admit I've never used a Powertec track, I was going off more favorable comments from others. At church I got us two Wen tracks that are only 50 inches long. That is short to do a full length cut on plywood. But I've had no issues joining them or with their straightness. But most of the work at church is not fine furniture grade.

At home I have joined my 106 inch track to my 59 inch track, both DeWalt. I just used a 6 foot aluminum level to get the tracks straight. I was cutting the edge of long cherry boards to make the 10 foot long top of my dining room table. The edges worked great for the glueup but I have to admit the table is about 1/2 inch wider in the center than at the ends. I don't know if that is a lack of straightness in the track or a problem with my technique but it isn't an issue in use of the table. You can only use a single joining bar with the DeWalt track so that is another potential issue but it is not applicable to Festool style tracks.

I don't know if the OP knows what the holey tracks that Festool makes. The holes are to all you to use the tracks and a jig they offer to space holes very accurately, I think it is on 20mm spacing. You "drill" the holes with a plunge router. I think it was Dave Sabo who recommended them. I have not looked at the price but if it's close I would agree that capability isn't a bad idea at all. One application would be shelf pin holes.

Last point (at least for this reply), one strategy would be to get the cheaper Powertec 59 inch tracks and check them for straightness using a known straight edge - could be as simple as a 6 foot level. If they are straight, they get used. If they are not, they go back. I'm sure Dave has experience supporting his concern I just do not know if it is possible to get a couple good ones as well as his experience getting a bad one or two. In a lot of cheaper offerings it is the variability that gets kind of high with the better examples being pretty darn usable.

I will also say that while I do not like the prices of Festool's offerings I love my domino. They make nice stuff. I would be very surprised if their tracks are not well made.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The holes are to all you to use the tracks and a jig they offer to space holes very accurately, I think it is on 20mm spacing. 32mm - for the European 32mm cabinets (anther entire multi page thread can be devoted to the worth/value/use of that system).

[Steve Gojevic]

Here is a picture of the table saw that I have now:

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Steve

[Joel Gelman]

Seems like aside from what you do with the track saw, you are unhappy with your Craftsman table saw. That takes up a fair amount of shop real estate, especially when you consider the footprint of infeed and outfeed in general, even if plywood is cut down. Not good to not be happy with your table saw. Perhaps this project is an opportunity to consider that Saw Stop vs a slider (which I now have whereas I once had a Delta Unisaw, and a Craftsman Radial Arm saw before that and I would never want to go back to a Unisaw).

[Steve Gojevic]

Rich Engelhardt - Thanks for the link to Marc Sommerfeld. Yes, his method is very good. The tongue-and-groove method produces self-aligning edges. I am seriously considering using this method. If so, would definitely buy his router bit set that has the correct shaft length so you don't have to recalibrate the cutter position every time you switch between tongue cutter and groove cutter. A seemingly small detail that can have a large payoff in time wasted recalibrating. He also has some good jigs and tools he sells.

I am going to make a router table as part of my table saw setup (see picture a few posts back). The tongue and groove method requires a good router table. Any suggestions on videos that show how to make a table saw router table that uses the table saw fence? Especially a fence add-on for the table saw fence that has t-tracks to hold various jigs and featherboards.

Thanks
Steve

[Scott Bernstein]

I built my kitchen cabinets last year in our garage. I have a table saw, which is not a slider. I obtained a Festool track saw with a couple of their rails. I laid out some wood strips on the garage floor to support the plywood panels and used the track saw to break down the panels. I did not attempt to use the tracksaw to cut the panels to final dimension, instead the tracksaw was just meant to break down to the pieces close to final dimension so the pieces were then easy to manage on the table saw. I assumed - rightly or wrongly - that the factory edges of the plywood would be close-enough to straight, so I used the factory edges against the table saw fence and cut the pieces to final dimension. This worked out great and all my cabinet boxes came out nice & square with little fuss. Did all the rabbets on the table saw with a dado blade; assembled with rabbet joints along the edges, glue, and screws. Good luck!

[Rich Engelhardt]

Steve, I can't help you with the table saw fence. Matter of fact, if you come across something I'd be interested. I picked up a small Aluminum plate for a compact router and I plan to put it in my table saw extension.

As far as other stuff from Sommerfeld. I did pick up his feather board. I like it a lot.

When I used the stile and rail bits without a coping sled, they did line up well enough to just swap them out.
I use a Rockler router sled now to cope the ends & that sled throw off the height.

For doing the carcasses and face frames though - it does save a whole lot of effort.

[Richard Verwoest]

Regarding breaking down plywood, I set up 4 "little buro" sawhorses with a sheet of foam insulation board on top, just behind my truck. Then I can just slide out one sheet at a time, make my cuts, and move on. No heavy lifting of plywood and no crawling around on the ground.

[Warren Lake]

your table saw is mickey mouse. On the positive good amount of support around it. Carpenter here has built some number or kitchens with a 10" cabinet saw and good support all around it. One person can cut on a saw. Stand your sheets up and they are easy to handle, tilt them down onto the saw then flat, doesnt work if you have a low ceiling. Two best european cabinetmakers i knew built enough kitchens with 10" cabinet saws. face frames mortise and tennon so where the doors.

[Dave Sabo]

your table saw is mickey mouse.

you're being snobbish and unfair.

While that saw may not have the cache and features of the preferred brands around here, it's very likely a good performer. As long as the table is flat and the blade aligned with the miter slot and the fence then it'll cut as well as any other contractor saw with a 1-1/2hp induction motor. Certainly accurate and powerful enough to build cabinets.

this would be more fitting the mm moniker - though in the right hands could also make a beautiful set of cabinets :

https://nation.ryobitools.com/products/details/10-in-table-saw

[Warren Lake]

not snobbish at all. Saw is working against him but he does have support. I cant look at that and see how far the fence goes.

Best work ive seen didnt come from the best equipped people but at some point the challenges dont add to the adventure.

[Rod Wolfy]

Steve, as far as your plans go, I was there in the past. I got a 3hp table saw with 52" fence. When I went to cut cabinets, it was next to impossible to manage a 4x8 sheet by myself & keep the sheet on the fence for 8'. I bought a Festool TS55 in 2007. I used it to make an entire set of cabinets in my dad's garage with a cooler of saw horses and a portable router table.

I had a Felder and year the sliding table is nice; however, very costly & takes up lots of space.

I never had a problem with getting exact cuts over 8' with the track saw. Just put the rubber "kerf" from the track on your marks & clamp in place. But, I only used a 108" track, to make sure it was perfectly straight & always clamped both ends. I usually throw up a couple of saw horses with 4' top rails in the driveway, put a 3" thick sheet of pink foam insulation across them and set the blade for about 1/8“ past the depth of the plywood. I've done 3 sets of kitchen cabinets this way.

Even though I have a Festool saw, I'm going to get the Milwaukee one. It's much more convenient to cut the sheets in the driveway without a shop vac hooked up & then just blow the saw dust away. I do have a Sawstop 3hp, but I would never get a 52" fence again. The 36" is perfect with the good quality fence. I mounted Jessem guides on the fence with magnets.

If you get the Sawstop mobile base, cry once & get the Industrial mobile base (I had the PCS base first, but you can't just pull the table towards you or turn on a dime with it. It has to go back & forth in interments).

[Steve Gojevic]

Again, thanks for all the advice from everyone.

One of the great things about this forum is that the members are knowledgeable and passionate about woodworking, and can have civilized disagreements.

I ordered the Milwaukee track saw and 2 55" tracks. I am also ordering the TSO self-aligning track connectors. I am still up in the air as to what cabinet build method I am going to use. However, I tend to lean towards using Marc Sommerfeld's method. If I use his method, I'll buy the tongue-and-groove router bits that he sells, along with his featherboard.

Meanwhile, I am going to build a table for the track saw and integrate my router into the table saw.

Steve

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Meanwhile, I am going to build a table for the track saw and integrate my router into the table saw.Steve

I am a HUGE fan of this. I have done this with both table saws that I have owned. The first saw I had to build the table for the first saw. If you live near Columbus Ohio I have some MDF you can use as well as the counter top laminate for the table. With my sawstop I just cut a hole in the existing side table and re-enforced it. With both I built a cabinet underneath to contain the dust and then attached to my dust collector. I then built a fence with dust collection!

Be sure to post pictures when you are finished. we love to see them!

I should probably put the stuff up on the for sale section under come and get it out of my house! :D Hmm, not a bad idea actually. Now I just need to remember to do that next week.

Andrew Pitonyak

[John Kananis]

Meanwhile, I am going to build a table for the track saw and integrate my router into the table saw.

Steve

Imho and if the budget permits, why not put a router table where your table saw currently lives and use that as a cut table also (just drop some stiff foam insulation on top when you need to cut something). Then, get yourself a cabinet saw. I have nothing fancy, a late 90's uni but it cuts anything I throw at it and it cuts it well.

[Thomas McCurnin]

You can also put a router table on one of the extensions, and simply lower it unless it is being used.

[James Jayko]

Maybe covered already, but why not just spend the time setting up your table saw to be accurate enough? It's not complicated, probably take you a couple of hours. Lots of resources online. If you have the Delta fence, I assume that is good enough to get things square.

I have a track saw and its great. But if you're buying it just because your table saw isn't accurate enough, there is a fix for that...

[Steve Gojevic]

OK, I got the Milwaukee track saw, along with two Milwaukee 55" tracks and the TPO couplers.

The tracks line up perfectly with the TPO couplers (keeping a very small distance between tracks as per your suggestions).

I made a track saw table at a convenient height. I used a metal lab table that I had (it's very flat and strong) as the base and made a 2x4 frame to hold a 1" thick foam sheet:

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Today the JessEm router lift is coming.

These toys are fun, oh I mean useful that is:).

Steve

[Steve Gojevic]

Over the weekend I used the track saw for the first time to cut a 2' x 4' piece of plywood out of a bigger piece (not for the cabinets but another project).

Wow, the cut is so straight and nice without chipping of the edge, even on crosscuts.

Using the track saw is going to be fun.

Steve

[Steve Gojevic]

I forgot to mention the excellent dust collection on the Milwaukee track saw. I was used to regular circular saws, which filled the air with dust.

I hadn't even thought about the dust until I was finished and realized there was no dust hovering in the air (at least no visible stuff).

This was with the bag that comes with he saw.

Steve

[John Kananis]

Haha, it is fun and quick. I certainly wouldn't give mine up - it does have its place. The blade your ts came with is designed for sheer goods and works really well cross cutting also as long as you don't take too deep of a cut. On rip cuts in real wood, it's just ok. I keep a few board for mine: the stock one, a ridge Carbide that I use for most sheet goods and a Freud rip blade for scoring and ripping down slabs and wider material. Enjoy your new toy...ehm, I mean tool. 😉