my first oil stones

[Adam AR Brown]

Hi all,

I'm a long time waterstone user and am basically happy with them. A King 800- and 4000-grit stone and then sometimes stropping on leather with green carbide compound. I have a course stone and various sandpapers that I use for rough grinding. My tools are mostly vintage, with some new O1 blades in the mix.

But, I've been working in an unheated shop the last couple years and my edge quality goes downhill in the winter. Either I'm at risk of forgetting the stones outside and letting them freeze, or I'm not resharpening often enough because I'm waiting to sharpen back in the house.

So, I'm thinking of getting some basic oil stones that I can use over the winter. My ideal would be a couple economical stones that could replace the 800 and 4000 grit waterstones.

Any suggestions about types of stones, brands, etc? Grits? Also, what kind of oil? I do have a few liters of kerosine kicking around if that works.

Thanks.

[Jim Koepke]

Adam, this is a difficult question to answer without knowing your general location. You mentioned having "a few liters of kerosine" available. This makes me think you may not be in the U.S. of A.

Your situation is similar to mine. My shop is unheated. As much as water stones have been my favorites for years, the shop is too cold to use water regularly during the winter months.

Some folks rave about kerosine being the best lubricant for use on an oilstone. Others mix it half & half with mineral oil. For me the mineral oil available in the local grocery's over the counter medicine (home care) aisles works for me. It is often labeled Lubricant/Laxative. An inexpensive Baby Oil also works and is of a lighter viscosity. Surely others will chime in on their favorite mixtures and secret formulas. After all, this is now a sharpening thread.

Not too far from me is a Lowes. They carry a Smith's 6" sharpening stone > https://www.lowes.com/pd/Smith-s-6-in-Natural-Arkansas-Bench-Stone/3063983

This is not a great stone but good for the price, ~$20. It is faster cutting than a hard Arkansas stone.

If you are willing to spend more once for some great stones your heirs will be using try Dan's Whetstones > https://danswhetstone.com/product/bench-stones/

The Dan's soft Arkansas is harder than the Smith's.

There are quite a few stones from Dan's in my shop. An eight inch by three inch seems to be a good size for my purposes. Many of the other stones are slip stones and shaped stones for use on carving tools and molding plane blades.

Hope this is more helpful than confusing.

jtk

-- As Edward Murrow said, "Anyone who isn't confused doesn't really understand the situation."

[Rafael Herrera]

You could try one of the inexpensive (~$25) double sided diamond stones found on ebay or amazon. As lubricant, a thin oil like mineral oil works fine. Depending on the kerosene type you have, or if you buy branded honing oil, they can have a very strong smell. I can't use gas station kerosene in my basement shop, it stinks up the upstairs. Mineral oil is odorless and costs about $25 delivered on Amazon. Search for "food grade mineral oil".

If you want a finer oilstone, you could get a soft or hard Arkansas, from either Dan's or Naturalwhetstone.com.

[Jim Koepke]

Mineral oil is odorless and costs about $25 delivered on Amazon. Search for "food grade mineral oil".

It has been a few years since my last purchase but food grade or baby oil was less than $5 a pint last time it was purchased.

jtk

[Adam AR Brown]

Adam, this is a difficult question to answer without knowing your general location. You mentioned having "a few liters of kerosine" available. This makes me think you may not be in the U.S. of A.

I'm in costal Nova Scotia (Canada). So mild enough that I can work outside most of the winter, but temperatures can drop well below freezing.


If you are willing to spend more once for some great stones your heirs will be using try Dan's Whetstones > https://danswhetstone.com/product/bench-stones/


Yeah, I could see splashing out for a quality stone. I do like the sound of the Arkansas stones.

If I got only one I would get a replacement for the 4000x water stone. That way I could do routine touchups as I work and go back to the 1000x water stone for coarser shaping.

Any idea what would be the right grade of Arkansas stone for this? I'm not a fanatic about sharpening - the 4000x waterstone always seemed fine enough for my needs, maybe with some stropping to finish off.

Also what about truing for the Arkansas stone? For my waterstones I just use some drywall sanding mesh on a piece of float glass. I'm thinking that would not work for the Arkansas stones?

[Adam AR Brown]

As lubricant, a thin oil like mineral oil works fine. Depending on the kerosene type you have, or if you buy branded honing oil, they can have a very strong smell. I can't use gas station kerosene in my basement shop, it stinks up the upstairs.

It's "lamp oil" but yeah, good point, it is a bit stinky. I'll get some mineral oil.

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, I could see splashing out for a quality stone. I do like the sound of the Arkansas stones.

If I got only one I would get a replacement for the 4000x water stone. That way I could do routine touchups as I work and go back to the 1000x water stone for coarser shaping.

Any idea what would be the right grade of Arkansas stone for this? I'm not a fanatic about sharpening - the 4000x waterstone always seemed fine enough for my needs, maybe with some stropping to finish off.

Also what about truing for the Arkansas stone? For my waterstones I just use some drywall sanding mesh on a piece of float glass. I'm thinking that would not work for the Arkansas stones?

A reminder, my most used Arkansas stones come from Dan's Whetstones. Stones from other sellers may be different.

If my memory is working the King 4000 stone is within the range of a Translucent Arkansas. You might be able to get by with a True Hard Arkansas and a strop.

One thing from my experience is you do not want to go from an oilstone to a water stone while sharpening. The blade needs to be put to work a bit to get every last trace of oil off before putting it to a water stone.

Water and oilstones are quite different in how they do their work. A water stone releases material as it is used. It is the released particles and the fractured material that is doing the work on the steel. A water stone is much more abrasive than an Arkansas stone. The surface of the oilstone is what abrades the steel being worked. This is why it is used with oil (or even water) to keep the pours of the stone from clogging or glazing.

A good Arkansas stone will not need truing like a water stone. My Smith's stone had a valley down the middle. My recollection is it was trued using another Arkansas stone. My method was to run one stone lengthwise across the other. Both stones needed truing and both came out much better for the effort.

jtk

[Cameron Wood]

I use water with arkansas and washita stones, and use coarser carborundum stones dry- less mess.

They can all be trued same as water stones, but you have to work at it more.

[Adam AR Brown]

A reminder, my most used Arkansas stones come from Dan's Whetstones. Stones from other sellers may be different.

If my memory is working the King 4000 stone is within the range of a Translucent Arkansas. You might be able to get by with a True Hard Arkansas and a strop.

Okay, I'll look into getting a true hard Arkansas. It sounds like that one is the one I'll be going to most for touching up. If I get another courser stone as well, would you recommend a soft or hard Arkansas? Ie. I'm not sure if this works in quite the same way, but which one would be a replacement for the 1000x waterstone?


A good Arkansas stone will not need truing like a water stone.

Okay, interesting. That is very appealing.

I'm sure this is going to take some real getting used to.

Oh another question - does the "soft" in soft Arkansas mean it wears faster?

[Jim Koepke]

If I get another courser stone as well, would you recommend a soft or hard Arkansas? Ie. I'm not sure if this works in quite the same way, but which one would be a replacement for the 1000x waterstone?

The Smith's stone is more in line with a 1000x water stone than a soft Arkansas. It is more like what is called a Washita stone.
A lot can be learned from a little reading. Here is one place to start > https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Washita-Arkansas-Stone-P1880.aspx#

FYI, I like my Smith's stone more than the Norton Washita stone. It would be nice if it was a bit larger.


Oh another question - does the "soft" in soft Arkansas mean it wears faster?

Arkansas stones grade, from soft to ultra hard, is determined by the density of the crystalline structure. (this is combined with whoever is selling the stone) The less dense the structure, the softer the stone and the faster it removes material. Softer stones are also more prone to wear.

Here is a link that may be of interest > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?287314

More can be found by plugging this into Google > norton washita site:sawmillcreek.org

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

It has been a few years since my last purchase but food grade or baby oil was less than $5 a pint last time it was purchased.


I meant $25 for one gallon. Since the OP is not in the USA, his price may be different.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Replace the 800 grit with a Norton Fine India stone. Replace the 4000 grit with a soft arkansas.

Luckily, both of those should be fairly inexpensive...it's the translucent or surgical black stones that get pricey.

TLDR: I have been using a Fine India - Soft Ark - Translucent Ark since 2016. Before that I was using Kings and/or Shapton waterstones. I honestly like the oil stones better, though I will still pull out the waterstones occasionally for a big job like flattening the backs of a set of chisels.

Assuming they are flat when you get them, then they will stay flat for years. But I do suggest keeping a diamond hone around to "wake up" the stone every so often, because the stones will get finer and slower over time as you use them. This is a consequence of being hard and not shedding abrasive constantly like waterstones.

My favorite honing oil is WD-40 in a spray bottle (not aerosol can). I like thinner oils than what is normally sold as honing oil, especially for the finer stones. Thinner oil seems to keep the cutting speed higher and you get better feedback. I've never messed with kerosene but I have heard of that being popular for oil stones back in the day. It's probably close to what I'd like in terms of viscosity.


P.S.: If you are grinding bevels and such by hand, and ever get annoyed with sandpaper, I recommend a Norton Coarse Crystolon stone. It's a silicon carbide oil stone with a softer binder, and sheds grit almost like a waterstone. It won't stay precision flat for that reason, but cuts very fast, perfect for tool bevels and odd jobs. Nothing beats fresh 60/80 grit sandpaper for speed but it can be tedious to keep set up. Of all the coarse stones I've tried the Crystolon is the only one worth bothering with.

[Rafael Herrera]

Okay, I'll look into getting a true hard Arkansas. It sounds like that one is the one I'll be going to most for touching up. If I get another courser stone as well, would you recommend a soft or hard Arkansas? Ie. I'm not sure if this works in quite the same way, but which one would be a replacement for the 1000x waterstone?

I'm sure this is going to take some real getting used to.

Oh another question - does the "soft" in soft Arkansas mean it wears faster?

If you want a stone to refresh the edge of your chisels or irons, you'll be best served by a soft arkansas. A hard arkansas is a very hard stone, more like a polisher.

The "soft" arkansas are soft relative to the hard ones, they're still hard but have a bit more bite than the hard ones. They are not as soft and friable as water stones. You can go to the strop from the soft arkansas if you choose that route.

If you ever need to flatten one of these stones, the quickest method is to use coarse silicon carbide lapping grit on a piece of glass.

P.S. There is yet a better stone for the workbench, it can be used as a single stone for most day to day sharpening, the Washita stone. The Washita stone is composed of the same material as the Arkansas stones. The silica particles are not as densely packed, so it is a "coarser", relative to the Arkansas stones. The historical Washita stones are no longer being produced, but can be found in the vintage tool market. If you locate one for sale and still has its labels, you should aim for the coarse one.

[Jim Koepke]

Nothing beats fresh 60/80 grit sandpaper for speed but it can be tedious to keep set up.

It can be tedious to hone out all the scratches left by the 60/80 grit paper.

Though it might be my luxury to have a four foot long piece of granite making it easier to use a finer grit in the 200 - 300 range.

494948

This has pressure sensitive abrasive paper on its full length. It comes in handy for plane sole or back flattening and removing chips from a bevel.

I bought this from a monument maker (tombstone carver) many years ago. (the image is old and that area is very crowed these days)

jtk

[Paul Saffold]

you might want to take a look at spyderco bench stones. they don't need water or oil. i would start with an india stone as robert mentioned then move to spyderco.

[Luke Dupont]

I quite like a Fine India coupled with a "Hard" (inbetween "Soft" and "True Hard / Black / Transluscent" on Dan's grading scale) Arkansas.
The "Hard" or as I call it, "Semi Hard" Arkansas is probably my favorite of the bunch.

Both stones can be replaced with a single vintage Washita produced by Pike or Norton -- not the modern Washitas. These cut both fine and quick. But they can be expensive and hard to track down.

Be sure to keep your oilstones flat and dressed. They'll stay flat for a long time, especially the Arks, but they will dish and the surface may need to be "roughened up" from time to time to keep them cutting quickly. If you keep them clean and dressed, they cut almost as quickly as waterstones.

[Jim Koepke]

One thing going for the Crystolon and India stones is they are inexpensive.

The links below are for 8 X 3" stones. This is a good size for my needs. You may want different sizes.

India stones > https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-India-Bench-Stone-8-x-3-P23C25.aspx

Crystolon stones > https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Crystolon-Bench-Stone-8-x-3-P24C25.aspx

My Crystolon stone is about 2 X 4" and is only used occasionally.

jtk

[Reed Gray]

I think the fine side of the Norton "India' stones is about 400 grit. Rather coarse for some, but some like it, as long as you strop after. I went with diamond lapping plates from DMT. You can use the Trend Lapping fluid, which ain't cheap, or go with ammonia free window washing fluid, and the ones intended for use on cars don't have ammonia in them because that can eat the seals around the glass. Apparently ammonia can also interfere with the bonding material on the diamond lapping plates. I do have one Trend stone which is 300 grit on one side, and 1000 grit on the other. The 300 grit side is slightly concave. The lapping plates from DMT are pretty much dead flat. They come in grits up to 8000.

robo hippy

[Adam AR Brown]

Replace the 800 grit with a Norton Fine India stone. Replace the 4000 grit with a soft arkansas.

Luckily, both of those should be fairly inexpensive...it's the translucent or surgical black stones that get pricey.

Yeah, interesting. In my online research on arkansas stones I've been finding kind of contradictory information. A few charts I've seen class the hard black as being in the range of a 4000x waterstone. eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/tools/grit-charts And the soft arkansas as being more of a coarse grinding stone. But the description of how the stones are used it seems like people get almost a finished edge off the soft ark.

I'm thinking I'll get a soft arkansas to start / try it out, and then later maybe get the hard black or translucent if I think I need it.


Assuming they are flat when you get them, then they will stay flat for years. But I do suggest keeping a diamond hone around to "wake up" the stone every so often, because the stones will get finer and slower over time as you use them. This is a consequence of being hard and not shedding abrasive constantly like waterstones.

Do you use just a small paddle-type hone? Eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/compounds-and-pastes/32984-veritas-honing-compound?item=05M0801 Any recommendation for grit?

Thanks for all the advice in this thread.

[Richard Coers]

A styrofoam cooler with a 50 watt incandescent bulb warm box will be a lot cheaper than new stones. Also provides a storage place for your glue.

[Luke Dupont]

Yeah, interesting. In my online research on arkansas stones I've been finding kind of contradictory information. A few charts I've seen class the hard black as being in the range of a 4000x waterstone. eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/tools/grit-charts And the soft arkansas as being more of a coarse grinding stone. But the description of how the stones are used it seems like people get almost a finished edge off the soft ark.


Don't be confused by "grit" charts. People new to Arks get thrown off by this.

Technically, a soft ark might be close to 600 grit, and a black close to 1000 grit. But in actuality, the surface is entirely different from manmade stones, and the soft "600 grit" ark will cut like a 1500-3000 grit man-made stone. The black will cut more like an 8-10k.
Grit means nothing when talking about natural stones because the shape of the "grit" itself and the shallowness of the peaks and valleys are not taken into account. It's not like a homogenous brick of evenly sized particles, and in the case of novaculite, there's not even really individual particles. They're all fused together and the peaks and valleys are much, much shallower than with man-made stones, leaving an entirely different kind of edge and scratch pattern.

None of the Arkansas stones are particularly aggressive. They're all middle and finishing stones. I'd roughly estimate their equivalent man-made ranges as follows:
Soft - ~2k
Hard - ~4k
True Hard, Transluscent, Black - ~8k+

Each stone is also slightly different, albiet, novaculite is pretty consistent.

There are also vintage Pike/Norton Washitas -- these are different from modern Washitas. They cut more like a 1k stone but can leave an edge closer to a 4k stone if you follow it up with a strop. Because of the extremely shallow scratch pattern that it leaves (similar to Arks), the edge can be refined on just bare leather to a surprising extent. They easily have the widest "range" of any of the Arks and make a decent one-stone hone.

[Adam AR Brown]

A styrofoam cooler with a 50 watt incandescent bulb warm box will be a lot cheaper than new stones. Also provides a storage place for your glue.

I love it. For sure. The shop is unpowered though. Basically it's just like 48 sq ft in my landlady's storage shed. But it's got an old workbench - I'm lucky to have it... I've done way cooler stuff there than I did in my old 300 sq ft machine shop.

[Adam AR Brown]

Thanks Luke, that's really helpful.

I found this interesting study of Arkansas stone's "effective grits" that bears out what you're saying: https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/articles/arkansas-sharpening-stone-grits.php

I'm excited to try them out.

[chuck van dyck]

I feel this thread has finally broken through to me how oil stones work. So thanks. I am excited to clean up all the oil stones Ive bought at flea markets over the years and see what its all about.

[Kevin Adams]

Adam, some good suggestions here. I haven’t checked prices on eBay in a while, but vintage Washitas (Pike) are an excellent stone if you don’t let your tool get too far gone. With the right touch, they can both raise a burr and then lighten up to give a nice finish, followed by a strop. And if you ever needed something finer, you could get a Dan’s surgical black.

Please let us know what you end up with and how it works out.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Michael Bulatowicz]

From the link, “
The Arkansas Stones we used in the test were new. Before beginning, we tested the specific gravity of each stone then broke them in by making 500 passes over an ordinary kitchen knife. We used mineral oil for a lubricant. We cleaned the stones with mineral oil before beginning the test passes.”

Even my limited experience says that’s not even close to “broken in” and the Arkansas stones would have generated a more polished edge if they had actually seen a good deal of use. I’ve had my Dan’s hard black for only about a year and a half, and it’s still improving (or maybe I’m getting better at using it, or maybe a little of each).

[Robert Hazelwood]

Yeah, interesting. In my online research on arkansas stones I've been finding kind of contradictory information. A few charts I've seen class the hard black as being in the range of a 4000x waterstone. eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/tools/grit-charts And the soft arkansas as being more of a coarse grinding stone. But the description of how the stones are used it seems like people get almost a finished edge off the soft ark.

I'm thinking I'll get a soft arkansas to start / try it out, and then later maybe get the hard black or translucent if I think I need it.



Do you use just a small paddle-type hone? Eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/compounds-and-pastes/32984-veritas-honing-compound?item=05M0801 Any recommendation for grit?

Thanks for all the advice in this thread.

They cut very differently. If I look at the finish the stone puts on the bevel, the soft ark makes a nice "cloudy" finish. It's not reflective but you can't really make out individual scratches. It does a good job setting up the edge for a polishing stone, which is what a 3-4000 grit waterstone would be expected to do. It's a middle stone. You could definitely get a usable edge off of it, especially for scrapers and pocket knives, axes, etc. For paring chisels and smoothing plane blades I'd want to finish on a finer stone (could be a strop or a block of wood with polishing compound).

As far as the diamond stones, I use large diamond bench stones- 220 grit for the Fine India and 320 for the soft ark. I bought these diamond stones long before getting the arks so I just used what I had. I think a small paddle type would be fine. I think just about any grit of diamond stone would be ok except for super fine grit. But if you get the oil stones, sharpen for a while before using the diamond hones. If new, the stones may be fairly coarse to begin with. They should settle down fairly soon though, and if you notice them getting slow then that's when to hit it with the diamond stone.

[Luke Dupont]

From the link, “
The Arkansas Stones we used in the test were new. Before beginning, we tested the specific gravity of each stone then broke them in by making 500 passes over an ordinary kitchen knife. We used mineral oil for a lubricant. We cleaned the stones with mineral oil before beginning the test passes.”

Even my limited experience says that’s not even close to “broken in” and the Arkansas stones would have generated a more polished edge if they had actually seen a good deal of use. I’ve had my Dan’s hard black for only about a year and a half, and it’s still improving (or maybe I’m getting better at using it, or maybe a little of each).




This is true. Arks wear in and become finer over time, and that can take quite a bit of time for the harder types.

Moreover, that link compared scratch patterns and not actual sharpness. Deep scratches left by man-made stones, especially diamonds, are in no way equal to the extremely shallow scratches and burnishing effect left by Arkansas stones. They may look the same under a microscope, but the quality of the edge is totally different.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

This is true. Arks wear in and become finer over time, and that can take quite a bit of time for the harder types.

Moreover, that link compared scratch patterns and not actual sharpness. Deep scratches left by man-made stones, especially diamonds, are in no way equal to the extremely shallow scratches and burnishing effect left by Arkansas stones. They may look the same under a microscope, but the quality of the edge is totally different.

I agree, Luke. The real test of an edge is the surface of the wood after it has been cut. The image below is from a planed pine board from a few months ago using the Dan's hard black Arkansas as the finishing stone for sharpening the iron. Looks pretty good to me; still, the more I use this stone, the better the finish gets (though the differences get more and more subtle over time).


495003

[Michael Bulatowicz]

As further evidence in favor of the polishing properties of Arkansas stones, Warren Mickley posted (January 2020) some scratch pattern images by Zowada (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?279814-What-is-the-finest-Arkansas-Stone-Disagreement-from-the-suppliers/page2).

Translucent Arkansas (I would guess truly broken in, though details were not provided):
495008

Versus Shapton 15k at the same magnification:
495009

It doesn't appear to me that the Shapton is likely to produce as bright a surface (or as long-lasting an edge) as the Arkansas in this example, though I have zero test data to support my interpretation of the images.

These images do, however, appear consistent with my experience: I already get a better edge (based on the planed surface of the wood) using my (largely?) worn-in Dan's hard black Arkansas than I do off my Sigma 13k (which, perhaps ironically, is finer than the Shapton 15k according to scratch pattern images posted on WoodCentral by David Weaver). As I mentioned, the edge I get from my Dan's hard black Arkansas stone is still improving--though the edge I get from the Sigma 13k is not.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

A relevant side note: I have never abraded the surface of my Dan's hard black Arkansas stone, with diamonds or anything else. I see no advantage in doing so when it's still improving in its polishing capability. Of course, I'm making assumptions here: I have never tried abrading the stone surface to see what that does to the surface of the wood, so I can't say definitively that it would degrade the polishing capability, but by the same token why would I risk degrading a stone that keeps getting better?

[Robert Hazelwood]

A relevant side note: I have never abraded the surface of my Dan's hard black Arkansas stone, with diamonds or anything else. I see no advantage in doing so when it's still improving in its polishing capability. Of course, I'm making assumptions here: I have never tried abrading the stone surface to see what that does to the surface of the wood, so I can't say definitively that it would degrade the polishing capability, but by the same token why would I risk degrading a stone that keeps getting better?

Abrading oil stones is about keeping them coarser and fast cutting. I wouldn't abrade a hard black, it would defeat its purpose as a fine polishing stone. I don't ever abrade the translucent I use for polishing, just the fine india and soft arkansas. Neither of those is ever going to be a polishing stone, so I want them to cut fast. In my experience abrading these stones doesn't make them dramatically coarser, but you can tell it has more bite when sharpening and the job seems to get done a little faster. They remain fine enough that the translucent can finish the job.

[Adam AR Brown]

Wow, really interesting thread. Thanks for all the advice. I've ordered a Dan's soft Arkansas to start. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Abrading oil stones is about keeping them coarser and fast cutting. I wouldn't abrade a hard black, it would defeat its purpose as a fine polishing stone. I don't ever abrade the translucent I use for polishing, just the fine india and soft arkansas. Neither of those is ever going to be a polishing stone, so I want them to cut fast. In my experience abrading these stones doesn't make them dramatically coarser, but you can tell it has more bite when sharpening and the job seems to get done a little faster. They remain fine enough that the translucent can finish the job.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Robert. I have no experience with abrading Arkansas stones, so it's interesting to hear what others have observed when doing so.

For fast cutting, I generally start with a fine India if I'm using a steel friendly to finishing on the Arkansas; if I am using a steel like A2 or PM-V11, I may start with a 1000 grit water stone and finish with the Sigma 13k (plus strop).

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, really interesting thread. Thanks for all the advice. I've ordered a Dan's soft Arkansas to start. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Looking forward to your thoughts after putting blade(s) to stone.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Don't be confused by "grit" charts. People new to Arks get thrown off by this.

Technically, a soft ark might be close to 600 grit, and a black close to 1000 grit. But in actuality, the surface is entirely different from manmade stones, and the soft "600 grit" ark will cut like a 1500-3000 grit man-made stone. The black will cut more like an 8-10k.
Grit means nothing when talking about natural stones because the shape of the "grit" itself and the shallowness of the peaks and valleys are not taken into account. It's not like a homogenous brick of evenly sized particles, and in the case of novaculite, there's not even really individual particles. They're all fused together and the peaks and valleys are much, much shallower than with man-made stones, leaving an entirely different kind of edge and scratch pattern.


Everything Luke says here is right on the money. I have a document where I list the grit range according to different companies and things vary wildly for their claims. I pulled values for Preyda, Dan's, and Best. Best has an interesting write-up where they compare scratch patterns to suggest a grit range for their stones.

https://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/articles/arkansas-sharpening-stone-grits

Dan's has the best reputation I think, but I have not had trouble with my stones from Preyda, Dan's, Best, or Norton; I own lots of OIL stones. If you lived near Columbus Ohio I would suggest that you stop in and you could give them a try.



I did find that I had to change how I sharpened with an Arkansas stone to chase the burr before I got decent results. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293713-Soft-VS-quot-Hard-quot-(not-True-Hard-Black-Transluscent)-Arkansas-Stones/page2&p=3143310

You will not sharpen quickly with an Arkansas, so keep it sharp and maintain your edge, much better than trying to make it sharp again.

If you want to test, a nice start might be to find the finest stone based on the company that sells it. For example, if you purchase something from Dan's, get the Black, which is less expensive than the translucent. For Best, it is the translucent. Also consider a Ceramic stone. I am partial to the Norton Ascent Ceramic stones because they have a guarantee on how flat they are and the Spyderco stones do not (and some people have had to flatten their Spyderco stones, but that is very old news and may no longer apply). The Norton Ascent places their Fine as roughly 4K and their Ultra fine as roughly 8K.

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-Ascent-Ceramic-Stone-Ultra-Fine-P1781.aspx

[Luke Dupont]

I did find that I had to change how I sharpened with an Arkansas stone to chase the burr before I got decent results.


One thing you'll find with Arkansas stones is that flatness is way more important. Because they're so hard and not aggressive, they won't polish all the way down to the edge if the back of your iron or chisel isn't perfectly flat all the way down to that point.
Softer and/or more aggressive stones are more forgiving of imperfect flatness.

I've found it helpful sometimes to take a bit of sandpaper on the tip of my finger and just make a (entirely imperceptible aside from the scratch pattern) swirling hollow on the backs of chisels or plane irons to make sure they register flat and don't rock -- much like you see on Japanese chisels and planes. It doesn't take much at all, but it does wonders. It will come out naturally with sharpening (probably by the time you even get it flat) and is more about just removing some of the bulk and making sure it registers flat and isn't rocking/bulging in the middle.

Once the geometry is up to snuff, chasing the burr is much easier with Arkansas stones. Granted, I usually follow up with about 20 strokes on a bare leather strop which helps remove any burr and refines the edge just a bit further.

But anyway, I just want to really emphasize this point because it's that important: Arks are really unforgiving of bad geometry. So much so that I consider them a good test of whether something is truly flat or not (provided the stone itself is flat, which, if it's an Ark, it usually is). So if anyone finds themselves having trouble with arks, that's probably the number one cause.

[Cameron Wood]

These are some arkansas that I have- L-R: medium (unfortunately cracked), hard, & hard.
I trued them a year or two ago & they haven't been used much as I mostly use water stones. Spent 15 or 20 seconds each with a diamond plate (not the cheap-o in the pic) & you can see that they are dished.
Blame my technique, & maybe it doesn't matter to you, but don't assume your stone is flat because it's hard & you haven't checked.


495170

[Warren Mickley]

These are some arkansas that I have- L-R: medium (unfortunately cracked), hard, & hard.
I trued them a year or two ago & they haven't been used much as I mostly use water stones. Spent 15 or 20 seconds each with a diamond plate (not the cheap-o in the pic) & you can see that they are dished.
Blame my technique, & maybe it doesn't matter to you, but don't assume your stone is flat because it's hard & you haven't checked.


495170
My black Arkansas stone is 1.000 inches thick, the same as it was in 1976. It has not been flattened or abraded in that time. Abrading a stone like this will make it rather similar to a soft Arkansas or a Washita; it will abrade steel somewhat faster, but not polish as well.

If you want a stone that acts like a soft Arkansas stone, it is much cheaper to buy a soft Arkansas stone, and you save time you would spend with constant abrasion.

[Tom M King]

Neither the Hard nor the Black stones from the first ones I bought about the same year as Warren have never been flattened or abraded in any way either. I still use them today. They stay in my truck for the traveling sharpening kit.

[Cameron Wood]

Those illustrate the "doesn't matter" category, which does apply to knife sharpening.

The idea that truing a stone would mess up it's cutting quality is curious- realizing that all stones were cut and ground to get to their rectangular shape. If the stone gets glazed and doesn't cut but only polishes that's fine I guess, but not much different than you would get on glass or a steel plate.

[Rafael Herrera]

A glazed stone is a different scenario.

A hard arkansas is a very low abrassion sharpening stone, its intended function is to polish the final edge, not to remove a significant amount of metal. That's what the coarser stones are for. Glass or a steel plate will not finish an edge.

If someone insists in roughing a hard arknsas so he can feel it grinding the metal, that's his business, but as Warren indicated, it's not being used right.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

These are some arkansas that I have- L-R: medium (unfortunately cracked), hard, & hard.
I trued them a year or two ago & they haven't been used much as I mostly use water stones. Spent 15 or 20 seconds each with a diamond plate

I trued a few Arkansas stones and I used silicone carbide crystals on float glass. Note that it is very easy to round the ends when you do this this and (probably) near impossible to dish the center. Also, it is MUCH easier to wear down the ends than to wear down a hump in the middle. So, if you figure out that you need this, tread with caution and check often.

I watched a guy on a video do this on web concrete because there are abrasives in the concrete but it is hit or miss if it works on the concrete in question. Float glass and the silicone carbide crystals are a sure thing. Diamond plates are great, but you wear them down quickly doing this with those.

Lee Valley sells the glass and the crystals (if you were wondering). An easy place to just go and buy it. Well, OK, I bought some there a while ago.

I read an article about purchasing a Washita stone (back when they were easily available new) and people would make one side coarse and one side fine. Obviously what they were really doing was refining the scratch patterns on the stones and not affecting the the size of the abrasives. I have never done this and I won't attempt to describe how or why this might work. The important thing to understand about this is that the size of the abrasive that you use to flatten, polish, or abrade your stone will affect the finish the stone leaves on your tools. So if I had to remove a dish from a translucent stone I would obviously end up using a finer abrasive than if I was removing the dish from a Soft Arkansas stone.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

A glazed stone is a different scenario.

I don't suppose you ever dealt with that? I assumed I might be able to deal with that using an abrasive pad, but I simply never dealt with it on an Arkansas stone. If you have, curious how you dealt with it. I would be very paranoid with a hard fine stone like surgical black or translucent.

[Rafael Herrera]

I've only dealt with old stones that had a layer of dried up oil and dirt. I rub them on coarse SiC grit on float glass. That results in a clean and flat stone. If I managed to glaze one of my stones, I would do the same.

[Rafael Herrera]

Here's an example, this is an Hindostan stone, the pictures show the before and after of using 90x SiC grit.

495219495220

P.S. All my stones are held in wooden boxes and are cleaned with oil after use. That avoids getting them dirty.

[Cameron Wood]

For kicks, I flattened the stone one end with #240 diamond plate, & the other end with #400 diamond plate,

then worked a chisel 1/2 on each end of the stone. Looking for a difference in the scratch pattern including with a little 40 power hand microscope.

At moments I thought I could see a difference, but at other moments not.

[Rafael Herrera]

The cutting power depends on the pressure you apply. Try pressing harder.

[Cameron Wood]

The cutting power depends on the pressure you apply. Try pressing harder.


I was looking in to Warren Mickely's and your idea that abrading a stone with a coarser abrasive would make it perform like a different stone, so I used the same pressure on each.

[Jim Koepke]

The cutting power depends on the pressure you apply. Try pressing harder.

A former co-worker was into knives. He told me when using oilstones, "press the blade into the stone like you mean it."

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

The above does not mean that that's how the oilstone must always be used. Pressing harder results in more aggressive grinding, pressing less is more Ike polishing. Over time a stone settles, if the use w varying degrees of pressure gets you the edge you want, then dressing the stone becomes unnecessary.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Yeah, interesting. In my online research on arkansas stones I've been finding kind of contradictory information. A few charts I've seen class the hard black as being in the range of a 4000x waterstone. eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/tools/grit-charts And the soft arkansas as being more of a coarse grinding stone. But the description of how the stones are used it seems like people get almost a finished edge off the soft ark.

I'm thinking I'll get a soft arkansas to start / try it out, and then later maybe get the hard black or translucent if I think I need it.



Do you use just a small paddle-type hone? Eg. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/sharpening/compounds-and-pastes/32984-veritas-honing-compound?item=05M0801 Any recommendation for grit?

Thanks for all the advice in this thread.

If I remember correctly, Lee Valley sells Formax, which is my preferred brand just because I know it. In other words, it is not that I found other lacking, but I have heard reports from others of compounds they did not like but Formax is a known entity. Also, if Lee Valley sells it, you can be sure it is fine.

My chart indicates that Green Compound in general is around 0.5 Micron, which is roughly 50,000 to 60,000 grit. Chromium Oxide (Cr2O3) is a superfine, polycrystalline abrasive, it is the mineral that gives green polishing compound it’s color.

Note that the Tormek Honing Compound is roughly 3 microns (8000 grit).

Some people strop on leather, some people strop on wood.

I even have heavy concentration 1 Micron Diamond Spray that I can use to make a hone. Have not tried it yet, too busy.

[Jack Dover]

You're overthinking this. Comparing grits with waterstones doesn't really tell you anything about your future sharpening, since waterstones are targeted at a particular type of steel and in general waterstones behave differently from oilstones. One particular oilstone can be set up for a range of coarseness for example. A freshly flattened India is faster cutting than an India stone that glazed a little bit over time, so you can decide how do you want it. My set up is similar to Ron's, except I've got a "big gray" crystolon stone from Sharpening Supplies. It doesn't stay flat, not even close, but this stone has areas which remove steel fast and a few spots that I keep that produce a bright mirror polish - all on the same stone. In terms of coarseness you can let your India stone to get pretty close to the soft ark. It leaves cloudy finish (meaning scratches, meaning it's still abrading rather than polishing), but a burr can pop off on an India stone. Some days I skip an arkansas and go straight to a power buffer and it works wonders. So this brings my protocol to just two stones, and only sometimes three. If a tool was freshly ground it's 400 diamond + India + power strop, otherwise it's crystolon + india + power strop. An arkansas (or rather washita) is used when I strop manually.

In terms of economy the only option for less money than Norton is some no name/no brand "made in USA" sharpening stones. They look exactly like Norton minus the print on the side. The vendor somewhat proudly grumbled it has nothing to do with Norton. These stones are okay, it's just I can't tell whether they're all okay or I just pulled lucky two stones. But at 25$ for an India combo stone I wouldn't probably experiment. Btw if you decide to buy combo stones - get two. My biggest issue with combo stones is coarser grit contaminating finer grit, so somebody told me that people used to buy them in pairs and use only one side on every stone. Once the side is worn stones were flipped (apparently never judging by combo stones full of life on ebay).

Personally, if years back I knew what I know about oilstones I would go with Norton's tri-hone, arkie version. Always fascinated how David W could pull one on a workbench, quickly sharpen and stow away, quickly and with little fuss. My setup takes a whole 22" x 36" area, which is like 20% of my shop space atm.

[Jack Dover]

I think you're just forgetting the fact that JIS grit chart just has a different scale than ANSI\FEPA. Not a well known fact apparently, judging how often people repeat the point that Arkansas stones are in the "grinding" range. In simple words, ANSI 1200 grit abrasive IS NOT equivalent to the JIS 1200 grit, neither is 8000 JIS eight times finer that DMT 1000 diamond plate. To get some vague idea about coarseness a grit particle size could be compared, most grit conversion charts list the size along with the scales.

The scales are different because there's different ways to ensure average grit size, so all three scales are drifting away from each other.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I've got a "big gray" crystolon stone from Sharpening Supplies. It doesn't stay flat, not even close, but this stone has areas which remove steel fast and a few spots that I keep that produce a bright mirror polish - all on the same stone.

How do you flatten your crystolon? Loose grit on float glass? I have only done it a few times but it has been long enough back I am a bit fuzzy on what I did. I think I used loose grit.




In terms of economy the only option for less money than Norton is some no name/no brand "made in USA" sharpening stones. They look exactly like Norton minus the print on the side. The vendor somewhat proudly grumbled it has nothing to do with Norton. These stones are okay, it's just I can't tell whether they're all okay or I just pulled lucky two stones.

I bought one but never tried it. I met someone who needed a sharpening stone so I gave it to him.



My biggest issue with combo stones is coarser grit contaminating finer grit, so somebody told me that people used to buy them in pairs and use only one side on every stone. Once the side is worn stones were flipped (apparently never judging by combo stones full of life on ebay).

I think that I would simply buy a single grit stone since they do sell them. I like the combo stones when I am heading out and only want to bring a single stone (does not happen often).


Personally, if years back I knew what I know about oilstones I would go with Norton's tri-hone, arkie version. Always fascinated how David W could pull one on a workbench, quickly sharpen and stow away, quickly and with little fuss. My setup takes a whole 22" x 36" area, which is like 20% of my shop space atm.

I have the version with two crystolon and one India stone. I really like it. I think I can get:



Norton Soft Arkansas (about $60)
Norton Hard Arkansas (about $80)
Norton Hard Black (about $250)
Norton Hard Translucent (about $260)
Norton Ascent Ceramic Fine ($280)
Norton Ascent Ceramic Ultra Fine ($300)
Dan's Soft ($60)
Dans Hard ($79)
Dan's Hard Black ($250)


So many choices.

My primary complaint is that the IM313 does not travel well because of the oil well and things are not sealed. Works really well in the shop, however. If the shop is not heated, I am not sure how the oil will hold up to freezing. But if you simply have a small footprint, this works really well for me, but I do not have arkansas stones in mine.

[Cameron Wood]

I was given one of those- IM313 stone set, recently. It was unused in original box with retail price sticker (remember those?) for $107, less than half of today's.

I sold it- seemed like it's best use was in a restaurant, sharpening kitchen knives.

[Warren Mickley]

For kicks, I flattened the stone one end with #240 diamond plate, & the other end with #400 diamond plate,

then worked a chisel 1/2 on each end of the stone. Looking for a difference in the scratch pattern including with a little 40 power hand microscope.

At moments I thought I could see a difference, but at other moments not.

A very simplistic model for sharpening has you using finer and finer "grits" and the fineness of the last grit characterizes the degree of sharpness. A more sophisticated model considers the depth of scratches a stone makes. Harsh abrasives (fast cutting) leave deep scratches and a weak edge.

Arkansas stones that are in good shape have a flat surface with tiny crevices. The crevices get caught on roughness on the tools bevel and remove them, but once the tool is polished they barely cut. So they leave just very shallow scratches in contrast to harsh abrasives. Abrading an Arkansas stone with anything causes degrading of the stone.

[chuck van dyck]

I think this is the first sharpening thread I’ve enjoyed.

If I recall correctly Toshio Odate’s book on Japanese tools has some microscope pics of western tool steel sharpened at like 2 micron or equivalent on different stones as well as pics of the different stone structures. The natural water and oil stones clearly had much more rounded particles and left a much less serrated edge.
That being said I think he was most interested in getting back to work so soft synthetic water stones were used.
I have a tsushima stone that is interesting. With fresh slurry and some pressure is sharpens like a 2k synthetic and cuts pretty quickly. If you work the slurry for a while and reduce pressure it leaves a 8kish polish.
This thread inspired me to clean up some of the nicer oil stones I have. One is quite fine and came in a dugout mahogany box. Hope to share here next time Im in the shop and can take a pic.

[Rafael Herrera]

Sometime ago, on another forum, there was a long thread on the Unicorn treatment, edges and edge failure.

Someone linked to a site with a study of edges and edge failure. In the context of woodworking it was noted that an edge fails faster if the edge's scratch pattern is deep. The metal will fatigue sooner and crack than when the edge sides are smother. The Unicorn method was presumed to improve the stability of the edge by smoothing the sides of the edge. David Weaver posted several articles in his blog about how different steels wore out over time. An exotic steel isn't necessarily superior to simpler steels if the later is properly sharpened.

Another take away from that thread that I found very useful was that chisel usage technique contributes to edge life. Prying motions while using a bench chisel will cause premature edge failure. I think that was contributed by Warren.

[Cameron Wood]

A very simplistic model for sharpening has you using finer and finer "grits" and the fineness of the last grit characterizes the degree of sharpness. A more sophisticated model considers the depth of scratches a stone makes. Harsh abrasives (fast cutting) leave deep scratches and a weak edge.

Arkansas stones that are in good shape have a flat surface with tiny crevices. The crevices get caught on roughness on the tools bevel and remove them, but once the tool is polished they barely cut. So they leave just very shallow scratches in contrast to harsh abrasives. Abrading an Arkansas stone with anything causes degrading of the stone.



Pardon my picking this apart, but this suggests that all Arkanasa stones are degraded, having been honed, and If one thinks flattening will do damage, then used stones are not in good shape, since they are not flat.

The idea that a stone cuts a rougher surface but stops cutting on a smoother surface sounds rather magical.

[Cameron Wood]

I think this is the first sharpening thread I’ve enjoyed.

If I recall correctly Toshio Odate’s book on Japanese tools has some microscope pics of western tool steel sharpened at like 2 micron or equivalent on different stones as well as pics of the different stone structures. The natural water and oil stones clearly had much more rounded particles and left a much less serrated edge.
That being said I think he was most interested in getting back to work so soft synthetic water stones were used.
I have a tsushima stone that is interesting. With fresh slurry and some pressure is sharpens like a 2k synthetic and cuts pretty quickly. If you work the slurry for a while and reduce pressure it leaves a 8kish polish.
This thread inspired me to clean up some of the nicer oil stones I have. One is quite fine and came in a dugout mahogany box. Hope to share here next time Im in the shop and can take a pic.



Here's one of those pics. It shows Warren Mickley's tiny crevices in detail.

The text says that they only had pics of western tools and not of (presumably harder steel) Japanese ones, and stresses that the stone has to suit the tool so there is no single best one.

495341

[Rafael Herrera]

Pardon my picking this apart, but this suggests that all Arkanasa stones are degraded, having been honed, and If one thinks flattening will do damage, then used stones are not in good shape, since they are not flat.

The idea that a stone cuts a rougher surface but stops cutting on a smoother surface sounds rather magical.

A well kept stone will cut to the degree their hardness allows, a well kept stone will also stay flat. A washita will wear faster than a soft ark, and this one in turn will wear faster than a hard one. This wear is slow and only experience will teach you how it progresses.

I've more experience with washitas and hard arkansas, since those are more frequently found in the vintage market. The Washitas I've found often have a slight dish that is quickly flatened with SiC grit, the hard arkansas I've found have all been flat.

The condition of the Washitas I've found, w some dishing, suggest that their owners kept on using them despite their shape. Spending extra effort into keeping them flat is unnecessary in my opinion.

I think what Warren means is that once the steel has been polished smooth, you're done, further rubbing will polish it even further, but continue doing so would be a waste of time. There's nothing mysterious about it.

Continuous roughing of an arkansas stone to make it cut more agressively is also a waste of time since it doesn't last long and you can accomplish the same more effectively with a crystolon or India stone.

[Mel Fulks]

And you can buy loose carbide and use it for flattening.

[Jack Dover]

I was given one of those- IM313 stone set, recently. It was unused in original box with retail price sticker (remember those?) for $107, less than half of today's.

I sold it- seemed like it's best use was in a restaurant, sharpening kitchen knives.

IM313 is at 125$ today if you want to wait for a sale, otherwise it's 145$ or something. Yeah, the biggest buyers are restaraunts and meat processing shops.

[Jack Dover]

How do you flatten your crystolon? Loose grit on float glass? I have only done it a few times but it has been long enough back I am a bit fuzzy on what I did. I think I used loose grit.

I'm using a 20$ diamond plate got off eBay, which doubles as a coarse plate. It indeed wears it, here's a couple of spots where coating is gone all the way to the substrate. But I figured that if it was good for ~3yrs, it probably will be good for 3 more years and then I just get another 20$ diamond plate. The plate is the one David W has discovered - this particular brand is flat and coating was even, pretty similar to a DMT but idk whether DMT would hold diamonds better.

I bought one but never tried it. I met someone who needed a sharpening stone so I gave it to him.

I wouldn't tell the stone from a Norton India in a double blind test, that's for sure. The issue with cheaper stones (and in general why Norton stones are so revered) is that theyhave highly varying hardness. Like, a Smith's 3 hone, an otherwise excellent sharpener in the 60$ range, had half of a coarse crystolon so soft it just crumbled away. Their medium crystolon stone was just divine tho. The unnamed brand India stone was hard throughout, or at least in a few months I didn't find any soft spots. The crystolon brick from Sharpening supplies is all spotty, the center is soft and grinds steel away in a blink if an eye - the price is that your bevel is not flat in any direction, since soft stone goes out of flat immediately. But the edges are so hard it doesn't really grind, they polish, esp. when dry - comes out as a clear bring mirror, but these spots are excruciatingly slow, gotta flatten a bevel on a diamond or an India. I have also a Norton's coarse crystolon - evenly soft throughout the whole stone. So I guess a good crystolon must not have soft spots, should have good binder that sheds layers evenly and should be medium hard, that is, there should be a bit of a "give". Yet to find a crystolon like that.


My primary complaint is that the IM313 does not travel well because of the oil well and things are not sealed. Works really well in the shop, however. If the shop is not heated, I am not sure how the oil will hold up to freezing. But if you simply have a small footprint, this works really well for me, but I do not have arkansas stones in mine.

Well, let's look at is this way.

If I plan to work outside the shop for a day I usually just sharpen at the shop before and take those little diamond cards that allow to hone a slightly dulled tool quickly. Or a little arkansas stone for hunters and fishers - 6x1 or something, really small. For longer stay aways, like for a week or so, most probably I will travel there by car and I think I can find a place for IM313 next to a tool box such that it doesn't spill. Or I would just drain it and would bought a bottle of unscented baby oil and refill it at the site. Alternatively, you could do what Smith does with their sharpener - either build it yourself, it's easy, or find the one that doesn't have an oil bath (there's dozens of them, I think Dan sells something like that).

In general, on a site or just out of your workshop the main concern sharpening wise is not a degree of polish, it's rather an efficient way of removing the bulk of steel. I've been on a project where there was an electric grinder set up on a site, there was a hand cranked once or twice. Some people manage to grind with an angle grinder, quite an unsettling operation, but they can do it. Your list is mostly high grit polishing stones and in your list the stones are very close to each other. I'd wager that if you strop you won't see any difference between an edge stropped after a Soft Ark or an edge stropped after a translucent Arkansas. A smooth and reflecting surface like on the photo can be done with stropping after an India or after chasing off a burr on a Soft Arkansas — stropping is this efficient, — and if you scuff sand you don't even need that. A high degree of polish makes sense if you intend a planed finish, then the edge must be flawless and clean, just be prepared that potentially your steel can't perform like that and you sharpen every other minute. For joinery and dimensional planing you actually want an edge that might be a bit duller, but with longer life, i.e. my jack plane is married to an India stone and that's only what it gets.


So, my advice would be to get a Soft Arkansas in addition to the two stones you have. Not going to imply anything, but form what I gather here, your type of work doesn't really require the highest degree of sharpness, so see what an arkie truly is, then you could decide whether you want a hard/black Arkie thrown into the mix. But these three stones - a crystolon, an India and a soft Arkie is what you will be using 95% of the time. Norton actually sells a soft Arkansas stone for their tri-hone, so if you can reconsider the traveling part it might be it.