Why the belt sander and not a plane for the hand cut dovetails?

[Joel Gelman]

When I make dovetail drawers, I use a Keller jig and I made some modifications for it's use on a router table (here is a picture of my jig). Very efficient and they look nice, but really not major skill involved. I make the pins a bit proud and use a random orbit sander to sand them flush. I am now focusing on improving my hand tool skills .... I think I have used sanders and machines on occasions when it would have been better to use chisels and planes. I was thinking one example was where perhaps I should have used a block or other plane instead of my random orbit to get the pins flush. Then... I see this video of a skilled guy who clearly can make dovetails with chisels.... and then he reaches for a belt sander! Huh.



494884

[Jim Koepke]

I make the pins a bit proud and use a random orbit sander to sand them flush. I am now focusing on improving my hand tool skills

Joel, on some projects my pins and tails are made very proud and then shaped with a chisel.

494886

They are rounded over or faceted like gemstones. It looks nice when done.

494885

This is a box to sit on the sofa to hold our remotes for the entertainment components. It also holds a few other items such as the incoming mail.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

When I make dovetail drawers, I use a Keller jig and I made some modifications for it's use on a router table (here is a picture of my jig). Very efficient and they look nice, but really not major skill involved. I make the pins a bit proud and use a random orbit sander to sand them flush. I am now focusing on improving my hand tool skills .... I think I have used sanders and machines on occasions when it would have been better to use chisels and planes. I was thinking one example was where perhaps I should have used a block or other plane instead of my random orbit to get the pins flush. Then... I see this video of a skilled guy who clearly can make dovetails with chisels.... and then he reaches for a belt sander! Huh.



494884

Joel, trim the dovetails with a wide chisel. Use the edge of the chisel to slice away the waste (not the waste/chisel straight on). Use a skewing motion.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

You probably are already set up to deal with noise and dust, but with a chisel or bench plane none of that is a factor. If you are referring to the same video I've seen, I don't think the guy in it is wearing any ear protection or a respirator, his choice I suppose.

[mike stenson]

Unless I left them REALLY proud (I should note that I do not intentionally leave anything proud, if it happens I deal with it, but that's it), it'd be more work IMO to use a belt sander. I'd have to go get it, hook up the dust collection, find my ear protection, get a respirator. Not to mention, the belt sander is heavier, and then I'm worried about it staying flat and not tipping in and creating a divot.

[Joel Gelman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDWkbyZEZQ

Sorry... this thread would not make sense without the link to the video I was referencing

[Jim Koepke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDWkbyZEZQ

Sorry... this thread would not make sense without the link to the video I was referencing

It looks like more is being done than just removing the proudness of the pins & tails. He is sanding the whole outside of the drawer box.

Paring the pins works for me.

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No big box holder to make and store. Less dusty and my favorite, less noise.

The tails were also trimmed. Pare from the outside in to avoid breakout.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDWkbyZEZQ

Sorry... this thread would not make sense without the link to the video I was referencing

Joel, I am going to appear very snooty when I say that that video and method by Becksvoort is a poor example of dovetailing and preparing a drawer. I simply cannot imagine that drawer fitting anything but loosely.

He does not saw to lines but leaves some to pare away with chisels. His chiseling is sloppy. He may be a whole lot better at using a belt sander - and possibly the only one to use this method - but the method must round over edges. The drawer looks reasonable from 6 foot. (A very good driend of mine, Chris Vesper, who is one of the best woodworking tool makers in the world, said to me that he was very disappointed by Becksvoorts drawer fit. Now I know why).

I don’t claim to be a professional, and I am not under the same time constraints, but I have friends who are high-end pros, and my drawers are up to their standards. It is not a race for me. Perhaps it is unfair, then, to compare how I do it with Becksvoort, who is working against the clock. The point is, you are not a professional doing the same either. There is no need to take shortcuts. What do you want to see when you look back on the work in a few years - a piece reflecting quality, or a memory of winning a speed race?

Becksvoort’s approach to marking out is very different to my own. If you want to watch videos of a style and method that I would support, watch Rob Cosman. In my own work, there is usually no waste to plane or pare away. This is deliberate. When fitting drawer fronts for a close fit, one does not want to alter their dimensions later (in this case with a belt sander - ugghh!).

I recently posted on the WoodCentral forum a series of links (on my website) for drawer-making. This may interest you, if only to give you an idea of what goes into the making of piston-fit drawers …

https://www.woodcentral.com/home/forum/Woodworking.pl?read=556373#gsc.tab=0

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Gelman]

Thanks Derek and Jim. I just thought this was an interesting video. Here I am as someone who has made drawers using a Random Orbit sander to address proud pins and tails, and I am thinking maybe if I were better at using hand tools that I knew how to get nice and sharp, I would incorporate that more. I was thinking plane or chisel. Then, I look at this FineWoodworking video of this older gentleman in his traditional shop using chisels and saws to hand cut dovetails and he then whips out a belt sander. I was thinking what the heck. I was thinking as I got better with hand tools, I would no longer need a powered sander with risk of roundover. I would not have to make all of these scratches using the course grits where then I need to sand them out. I would just use a chisel or plane and then I would save time and have a nicer finish, no noise etc. So, I was wondering why this guy would use a belt sander.

[steven c newman]

Perhaps a suggestion, as long as the OP is watching videos.....Dial up Paul Sellers Masterclasses sometime....and see how he does dovetail joints...

[Dave Zellers]

That plywood with the slots at various spacing is awesome. I have to remember that.

[Mark Rainey]

I do like that tool he uses to help tighten his Veritas hold down. For us over 60 we need all the help we can get. And I like the fact he is sitting while dovetailing. Once again, the aging woodworker. I don't think any of us on this thread makes a living woodworking. I am very impressed Becksvoort has - I he has to put out product to put food on the table. We have the luxury of time and money. I think he has retired after many years.

[Derek Cohen]

That plywood with the slots at various spacing is awesome. I have to remember that.

I imagine that Becksvoort made a few standard sized drawers. His fixture was sized for these. Here is an adjustable version which may be more useful for others …

https://i.postimg.cc/QD0PxSrc/6a.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/826509f0-1072-4454-bd88-22ab6784c198

Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/DrawerPlaningFixture.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Zellers]

Here is an adjustable version which may be more useful for others …

Beautiful- way better. Thanks for posting that.

[Joel Gelman]

https://www.barth-maschinenbau.de/en/produkt/vertical-clamping-device/

I have a Barth bench and a Traditional workbench. I love the vertical clamps for the Barth perforated top (22mm as opposed to the 20mm with Festool). For the workbench, there are only rectangular holes for the bench dogs to use with the vices. I was thinking of drilling holes to use hold downs on my traditional workbench, and was wondering if the above clamp would be as good or better than the traditional hold down. I already have several of the Barth (Bessey makes these), but surely it is not "traditional looking". I tend to favor what works best.

[Derek Cohen]

https://www.barth-maschinenbau.de/en/produkt/vertical-clamping-device/

I have a Barth bench and a Traditional workbench. I love the vertical clamps for the Barth perforated top (22mm as opposed to the 20mm with Festool). For the workbench, there are only rectangular holes for the bench dogs to use with the vices. I was thinking of drilling holes to use hold downs on my traditional workbench, and was wondering if the above clamp would be as good or better than the traditional hold down. I already have several of the Barth (Bessey makes these), but surely it is not "traditional looking". I tend to favor what works best.

Joel, the bottom line is use what you find helpful. If you have a bunch of Barth vertical clamps, and you like them, then use them. If you have to drill holes in your bench specially for them, then select the spots and do so.

I have two benches, one a traditional Roubo-style with leg vise and tail vise. This bench has square dog holes along the front apron, and then just a few round 19mm holes bored for hold downs. Here I rely on two types, the Veritas and the Gramercy. You can see both here ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DrawerBottomsIntoSlips_html_m15485be3.jpg


I really do not want many round dog holes in this bench as tiny objects fall through!!!

Very recently, I built a MFT bench. This is longer than the Festool MFT but uses the same 20mm hole spacing. This bench is primarily for work holding for power tools ... although in the picture below it is being used for a mitre jack (mitred dovetails) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/gJD1ZQ24/2.jpg

Here you can see different Veritas hold downs. These can work in the 20mm holes, but are not ideal. I have just purchased two of the following from Banggood (I do not know if they are made by anyone else) - they are truly excellent quality - all aluminium. Very solid ...

https://i.postimg.cc/fygYkdRm/Banggood3.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Y0S1pRMt/Banggood2.jpg

There are Festool and Bessey clamps like yours for 20mm holes. Personally, I find this style less comfortable to tighten. The advantage of all the ones I use is that they are easily adjusted. All are rock solid.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Gaudio]

When I make dovetail drawers, I use a Keller jig and I made some modifications for it's use on a router table (here is a picture of my jig). Very efficient and they look nice, but really not major skill involved. I make the pins a bit proud and use a random orbit sander to sand them flush. I am now focusing on improving my hand tool skills .... I think I have used sanders and machines on occasions when it would have been better to use chisels and planes. I was thinking one example was where perhaps I should have used a block or other plane instead of my random orbit to get the pins flush. Then... I see this video of a skilled guy who clearly can make dovetails with chisels.... and then he reaches for a belt sander! Huh.



494884

Joel: thanks for posting that video: its great to watch a master craftsman at work. As far as belt sanders go, I am fairly certain that Mr. Becksvoort would tell you that efficiency is important when you are making a living at custom furniture building. The dilettantes among us may scoff at this, but IMHO it makes sense for his method of work, i.e., make museum quality Shaker furniture and make a modest living doing it. I've read all his Fine Woodworking articles and seen most of his videos and I would suggest you can learn an awful lot by doing the same. Christian exhibits skills that most of us will never achieve and does this all in a unpretentious manner. I would also suggest that you visit his website to see some of his work: truly outstanding! Phil

[Thomas McCurnin]

I have no problem with using a belt sander. If one actually watches the video, he probably taking off less than a 64th as the belt sander is on the drawer side less than a few seconds.

That said, we were taught to use a 1" chisel at an angle (skewing) to trim the tails.

You'll have to sand or use a scraper to clean up the drawers anyway, so a belt sander is not so bad.

[Charles Guest]

Joel, I am going to appear very snooty when I say that that video and method by Becksvoort is a poor example of dovetailing and preparing a drawer. I simply cannot imagine that drawer fitting anything but loosely.

He does not saw to lines but leaves some to pare away with chisels. His chiseling is sloppy. He may be a whole lot better at using a belt sander - and possibly the only one to use this method - but the method must round over edges. The drawer looks reasonable from 6 foot. (A very good driend of mine, Chris Vesper, who is one of the best woodworking tool makers in the world, said to me that he was very disappointed by Becksvoorts drawer fit. Now I know why).

I don’t claim to be a professional, and I am not under the same time constraints, but I have friends who are high-end pros, and my drawers are up to their standards. It is not a race for me. Perhaps it is unfair, then, to compare how I do it with Becksvoort, who is working against the clock. The point is, you are not a professional doing the same either. There is no need to take shortcuts. What do you want to see when you look back on the work in a few years - a piece reflecting quality, or a memory of winning a speed race?

Becksvoort’s approach to marking out is very different to my own. If you want to watch videos of a style and method that I would support, watch Rob Cosman. In my own work, there is usually no waste to plane or pare away. This is deliberate. When fitting drawer fronts for a close fit, one does not want to alter their dimensions later (in this case with a belt sander - ugghh!).

I recently posted on the WoodCentral forum a series of links (on my website) for drawer-making. This may interest you, if only to give you an idea of what goes into the making of piston-fit drawers …

https://www.woodcentral.com/home/forum/Woodworking.pl?read=556373#gsc.tab=0

Regards from Perth

Derek

He cuts his drawers loose and has acknowledged why -- how do you fix a client's summertime jammed drawer when it's 2,000 miles away? He could cut them so tight they'd jam if somebody were making tea in the kitchen.

[Jim Koepke]

He cuts his drawers loose and has acknowledged why -- how do you fix a client's summertime jammed drawer when it's 2,000 miles away? He could cut them so tight they'd jam if somebody were making tea in the kitchen.

Hopefully Derek will present a better reply to your question.

In my limited experience, drawers have needed humidity adjustment from the sides and front expanding vertically, not from expansion side to side. The front, sides and back can have a snug fit without jamming. At least that has worked on my drawers and we have wild humidity fluctuations here in the Pacific Northwest.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hopefully Derek will present a better reply to your question.

In my limited experience, drawers have needed humidity adjustment from the sides and front expanding vertically, not from expansion side to side. The front, sides and back can have a snug fit without jamming. At least that has worked on my drawers and we have wild humidity fluctuations here in the Pacific Northwest.

jtk

Jim is spot-on. Movement takes place across the grain, not with the grain. Drawer sides are likely to move up and not across the drawer case. Drawer fronts ditto. Consequently, we leave room to expand by taking away material from the top of a drawer and not the sides.

In other words, beltsanding the sides is all about fast smoothing and no other purpose. It is both fast and imprecise.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Gelman]

https://www.finewoodworking.com/issue/2023/02/302-mar-apr-2023

He is the new "Coverboy" in FWW

[Derek Cohen]

Joel,

Becksvoort has written for FWW for many, many years. Personally, I think some of his articles are excellent and some of them show poor technique. He is a much-loved personality, and this accolade is well-deserved. He has given back a lot.

Still does not make using belt sanding drawer sides a method to emulate.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I have to agree with Derek. He uses a belt sander because he lacks skill with a plane.

[Charles Guest]

Hopefully Derek will present a better reply to your question.

In my limited experience, drawers have needed humidity adjustment from the sides and front expanding vertically, not from expansion side to side. The front, sides and back can have a snug fit without jamming. At least that has worked on my drawers and we have wild humidity fluctuations here in the Pacific Northwest.

jtk

It's my understanding, again, that he cuts them loose all the way around for gaps to match, allow for expansion of other parts of a project, racking, etc. not to foul the drawers. How would a furnituremaker living in Maine resolve an issue for a piece sitting in a customer's home in New Mexico, or the Pacific Northwest?

The notion that he couldn't cut a tight drawer if he chose to is just ridiculous on its face regardless of whether he sands or planes superfluous material.

Do you people ever listen to yourselves? "Chris Becksvoort couldn't cut a tight drawer if he tried..." This is essentially what you're saying.

[Warren Mickley]

You'll have to sand or use a scraper to clean up the drawers anyway, so a belt sander is not so bad.

Only if you don't know how to use a plane.

[Derek Cohen]

It's my understanding, again, that he cuts them loose all the way around for gaps to match, allow for expansion of other parts of a project, racking, etc. not to foul the drawers. How would a furnituremaker living in Maine resolve an issue for a piece sitting in a customer's home in New Mexico, or the Pacific Northwest?

The notion that he couldn't cut a tight drawer if he chose to is just ridiculous on its face regardless of whether he sands or planes superfluous material.

Do you people ever listen to yourselves? "Chris Becksvoort couldn't cut a tight drawer if he tried..." This is essentially what you're saying.

Charles, did you read what I wrote about expansion in wood, specifically drawers?

There is no need to made the drawers loose in the places he does. I have also built furniture with drawers and sent it to different parts of Australia (on several occasions), where the levels of humidity are vastly different from one another. I made the drawers a slip fit at the sides, and send them off. Never had a problem.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Gaudio]

At the risk of repeating myself:


Joel: thanks for posting that video: its great to watch a master craftsman at work. As far as belt sanders go, I am fairly certain that Mr. Becksvoort would tell you that efficiency is important when you are making a living at custom furniture building. The dilettantes among us may scoff at this, but IMHO it makes sense for his method of work, i.e., make museum quality Shaker furniture and make a modest living doing it. I've read all his Fine Woodworking articles and seen most of his videos and I would suggest you can learn an awful lot by doing the same. Christian exhibits skills that most of us will never achieve and does this all in a unpretentious manner. I would also suggest that you visit his website to see some of his work: truly outstanding! Phil

[Jim Koepke]

It's my understanding, again, that he cuts them loose all the way around for gaps to match, allow for expansion of other parts of a project, racking, etc. not to foul the drawers. How would a furnituremaker living in Maine resolve an issue for a piece sitting in a customer's home in New Mexico, or the Pacific Northwest?

The notion that he couldn't cut a tight drawer if he chose to is just ridiculous on its face regardless of whether he sands or planes superfluous material.

Do you people ever listen to yourselves? "Chris Becksvoort couldn't cut a tight drawer if he tried..." This is essentially what you're saying.

I'm missing which post is it with anyone saying or implying the above?

The only thing seemingly implied, imo, is Mr. Becksvoort uses a sander to speed up his process. Plus maybe it is easier than using a plane or chisel.

Drawers that fit snugly side to side do not have to be snug top to bottom which is where almost all of the expansion occurs with changes in humidity.

With consideration for materials used and well proven construction techniques a furniture maker in Maine will not have problems with their work being moved to any other part of the country.

jtk

[Kevin Jenness]

In other words, beltsanding the sides is all about fast smoothing and no other purpose. It is both fast and imprecise.

Not necessarily. Maybe the people saying only a plane or chisel can be used to precisely flush dovetails and tune up the fit of a drawer don't know how to use a belt sander. In the hands of an experienced and careful person it can be both productive and accurate. So can a well tuned plane. I'm not going to defend the fit of Chris Becksvoort's drawers as I have never put hands on one, but if they are loose as an old sneaker it's not necessarily because he uses a belt sander.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe the people saying only a plane or chisel can be used to precisely flush dovetails and tune up the fit of a drawer don't know how to use a belt sander.

Has anyone actually said a plane or a chisel is the only way to flush dovetails?

Someone may have said they avoid cutting joinery proud so they do not have to spend time flushing.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Sometimes....think 3/4 Overlay Drawers? Kind of a bear to get either in there....in case one has a high spot...AND do it without splitting a pin out, or a 1/2 tail....
496257
Same goes for finger jointed corners..
496258
As it does for these 3/4 overlay drawer fronts,,,
496259

496260
Of course, THESE might be a bit tricky to do when then are curves involved...

[Kevin Jenness]

Has anyone actually said a plane or a chisel is the only way to flush dovetails?

Someone may have said they avoid cutting joinery proud so they do not have to spend time flushing.

jtk

Someone said belt sanding is imprecise. Someone else said so and so uses a belt sander because he lacks skill with a plane. It ain't necessarily so.

[Derek Cohen]

I wrote that using a belt sander to flush pins is risky as it will take too much off the drawer sides and may round over edges. Warren stated that he does not have skill with a hand plane. Warren may be correct. I cannot imagine that the speed of a belt sander could outweigh the precision of a hand plane. There really should be no difference in speed, per se.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Phil Gaudio]

For those of you that have a subscription to Fine Woodworking Online: here is an excellent article written by Christian Becksvoort focusing on the use of belt sanders.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/360388/011277046.pdf

It was in the Sept/Oct 2019 edition of FWW.

[Joel Gelman]

I am fairly certain that Mr. Becksvoort would tell you that efficiency is important when you are making a living at custom furniture building.

When I have made dovetail drawers, using a Keller jig for through dovetails, I always allowed at least 1/32 extra if not a bit more, then use a random orbit sander to sand the pins-tails flush. I allowed this extra to avoid being a hair short and then having to sand the drawer side to achieve a flush fit. When I do this, I find myself using 80 grit to start, and then I have to progress up to 400. It is not like I just run the sander with 1 grit of paper and I am done. Any extra pressure at the edge or tilt, and a roundover which looks awful.

I thought one reward for addressing my woodworking weakness of not using planes and chisels and other hand tools enough was that with skill and quality sharpening hand tools I would save time and have a better result by using hand tools to over sanders for this task. That is why I found it interesting when I watched this video of the hand cut dovetails followed by the belt sander.

[Phil Gaudio]

I am fairly certain that Mr. Becksvoort would tell you that efficiency is important when you are making a living at custom furniture building.

When I have made dovetail drawers, using a Keller jig for through dovetails, I always allowed at least 1/32 extra if not a bit more, then use a random orbit sander to sand the pins-tails flush. I allowed this extra to avoid being a hair short and then having to sand the drawer side to achieve a flush fit. When I do this, I find myself using 80 grit to start, and then I have to progress up to 400. It is not like I just run the sander with 1 grit of paper and I am done. Any extra pressure at the edge or tilt, and a roundover which looks awful.

I thought one reward for addressing my woodworking weakness of not using planes and chisels and other hand tools enough was that with skill and quality sharpening hand tools I would save time and have a better result by using hand tools to over sanders for this task. That is why I found it interesting when I watched this video of the hand cut dovetails followed by the belt sander.

Joel

You are not wrong. Nor is Mr. Becksvoort wrong. One aspect of woodworking that is challenging is trying to discern the best way to accomplish a task: it is so often the case there are a myriad ways to accomplish a job. I am strictly a hobbyist: I have no time constraints nor do I have to worry about the time invested in a project vs. the income generated from this effort. Truth be told, I don’t own a belt sander, and I would not run out and buy a belt sander to sweeten the fit of a drawer. I have the luxury (as many hobby woodworkers enjoy) of taking what ever time it takes to make a drawer fit to whatever standards you are working towards. Having said that, this does not invalidate Christian’s approach. I feel comfortable using a plane to get a drawer to fit correctly. I would not be adverse to using my 16” segmented head jointer to help in this process. Many ways to skin a cat. Christians’s approach may not be the best approach for all of us, but it works for him, and I suspect it works for many other woodworkers, particularly those that have to factor in time expended on a given project. I would caution that although there are lots of folks that think their way is the best/only way to proceed, in the final analysis, the best way is the way that works for you.

Phil

[Jim Koepke]

in the final analysis, the best way is the way that works for you.

Amen

jtk

[Kevin Jenness]

Whether you cut your joints with hand tools or a router and dovetail jig, work on getting the parts sized correctly and fit together so that you aren't substantially changing their size after assembly. Slice 1/32" off those protruding pins with a Japanese chisel sharpened to 16,000# or grind them off with a belt sander, the drawer will still be as loose as a wizard's sleeve.

[Joel Gelman]

Oh... no. I am not saying with any authority that I think hand tools are better or faster for this task than a belt sander. For decades I have been a power tool guy that has always used sanders. I am just now starting to develop sharpening, chisel, and plane skills. I am not yet ready to start on hand cut dovetails. First I want to get all my tools flattened-sharpened, and I am buying some nice hand tools to have the basics of good quality. I was thinking when I got good with very sharp chisels and planes, I would save time on this particular task because this is best done with chisels or planes, but perhaps not.

[Phil Gaudio]

From years of experience, I can say for certainty that you can destroy a project much more quickly and efficiently with power tools than with hand tools!

[Jim Koepke]

From years of experience, I can say for certainty that you can destroy a project much more quickly and efficiently with power tools than with hand tools!

LOL! My preference for hand tools is often explained as being because my mistakes are made slower.

jtk

[Phil Gaudio]

LOL! My preference for hand tools is often explained as being because my mistakes are made slower.

jtk

and often with more finesse!

[Kevin Jenness]

Oh... no. I am not saying with any authority that I think hand tools are better or faster for this task than a belt sander. For decades I have been a power tool guy that has always used sanders. I am just now starting to develop sharpening, chisel, and plane skills. I am not yet ready to start on hand cut dovetails. First I want to get all my tools flattened-sharpened, and I am buying some nice hand tools to have the basics of good quality. I was thinking when I got good with very sharp chisels and planes, I would save time on this particular task because this is best done with chisels or planes, but perhaps not.

My point is that the task you have set yourself - flushing off dovetail pins that protrude 1/32" - is undermining the goal of making a properly fitting drawer. Fit the front and back tight to the opening, cut the joints so the sides are as close as possible to flush with the pins, then use whatever method works best for you to clean up and do any necessary further fitting. The more accurately your joints are cut, the less you have to do after assembly.

[Derek Cohen]

My point is that the task you have set yourself - flushing off dovetail pins that protrude 1/32" - is undermining the goal of making a properly fitting drawer. Fit the front and back tight to the opening, cut the joints so the sides are as close as possible to flush with the pins, then use whatever method works best for you to clean up and do any necessary further fitting. The more accurately your joints are cut, the less you have to do after assembly.

Exactly, Kevin. It is all about fitting a drawer, and trueing the sides is one task to be looked at with care. Accurate joints begin with setting the cutting gauge(s) accurately ... in my case, I set them for the exact thickness and not under- or over.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Gelman]

Well... I am going to explore a new way. I have a very efficient setup for making through dovetail drawers with my modified Keller Jig and a shaper. My MO is to make them to use with Blumotion undermount, and I have everything setup to easily make drawers very quickly. I make the front back and sides 1/16 over (1/32 x 2) to allow for sanding flush because that was suggested by David Keller on the video that came with his jig and I have not changed. Drawer fit has not been an issue. Just a matter of making the side to side distance 10mm less than the interior cabinet width and the ProScale and miter saw DRO fences are very accurate. But....those through dovetails will never look to me as nice as the more slender hand cut.



.496383496384

[Kevin Jenness]

That's a horse of a different color. Blum slides have a very loose tolerance for width discrepancies compared to side-hung drawers, and the inside dimension is what matters. Just the same, you can save some time and effort by reducing pin overhang to a minimum. In my shop I would clean those up on the edge sander.

Beautiful wood, by the way. Bigleaf maple?

[Mike Brady]

I'll not critique a person who I respect for making a living at furniture-making. I have met Mr. Becksvoort at Lie-Nielsen, and even helped him load his car (like a true fan-boy)!

What did capture my attention was the way he inserted his chisels in the dog holes to temporarily store them. The one time I did this with a Lie-Nielsen chisel, it left the handle behind as it plunged to the shop floor.:rolleyes: There is often more to a methodology than meets the eye.

[Joel Gelman]

Beautiful wood, by the way. Bigleaf maple?

highly figured maple and Brazilian Rosewood from Sam Maloof's stash. I was fortunate to be able to buy some Figured Walnut, Maple, Brazilian, and Ziracote. That project was used to make a wedding gift for my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor Ryron Gracie, and I liked the idea of having certain things made of Brazilian. However, I am not sure he truly understands how nice that wood is the way you do, but I know.

[Tom Bender]

A piston fit drawer may not expand significantly due to moisture but the sides may warp a little due to moisture or due to overloading. And a case will tend to twist a bit on an unflat floor, which can cause drawers to stick.

Or the owner may slather on a coat of paint and cause problems too but we don't really care at that point.

[Luke Dupont]

Joel, I am going to appear very snooty when I say that that video and method by Becksvoort is a poor example of dovetailing and preparing a drawer. I simply cannot imagine that drawer fitting anything but loosely.

He does not saw to lines but leaves some to pare away with chisels. His chiseling is sloppy. He may be a whole lot better at using a belt sander - and possibly the only one to use this method - but the method must round over edges. The drawer looks reasonable from 6 foot. (A very good driend of mine, Chris Vesper, who is one of the best woodworking tool makers in the world, said to me that he was very disappointed by Becksvoorts drawer fit. Now I know why).

I don’t claim to be a professional, and I am not under the same time constraints, but I have friends who are high-end pros, and my drawers are up to their standards. It is not a race for me. Perhaps it is unfair, then, to compare how I do it with Becksvoort, who is working against the clock. The point is, you are not a professional doing the same either. There is no need to take shortcuts. What do you want to see when you look back on the work in a few years - a piece reflecting quality, or a memory of winning a speed race?

Becksvoort’s approach to marking out is very different to my own. If you want to watch videos of a style and method that I would support, watch Rob Cosman. In my own work, there is usually no waste to plane or pare away. This is deliberate. When fitting drawer fronts for a close fit, one does not want to alter their dimensions later (in this case with a belt sander - ugghh!).

I recently posted on the WoodCentral forum a series of links (on my website) for drawer-making. This may interest you, if only to give you an idea of what goes into the making of piston-fit drawers …

https://www.woodcentral.com/home/forum/Woodworking.pl?read=556373#gsc.tab=0

Regards from Perth

Derek

This post makes me realize just how incompetent I am. I mean, I'd never do the belt-sander thing, because I agree, that's... 'ugghhh', but the way he saws and chisels looked kind of on the 'clean' compared to what I do. And I probably spend twice as long doing it.

But then, I'm not doing this as a business and have yet to even build a serious piece of furniture. I cut dovetails maybe 3-4 times a year at most... once or twice, more often than not. So I guess I shouldn't feel too bad...

[steven c newman]

Sometimes...a beltsander does make more sense...
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Because IF you plane from one end, to avoid breaking out any pins at that end...the plane will break out pins on the other end....IF you switch around to plane the other end, you will be going against the grain of the tail board, and get tear out...

[James Pallas]

This type of work is exactly why the Stanley #75 was made. The iron set flush to the sole and that gap at the nose is supposed to be there to go over the protruding pin or tail and the iron making a flush cut to the drawer side. I did a post a couple of years ago about this very issue. I demonstrated with a dowel but same type of work. This will open the can of worms once again.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Sometimes...a beltsander does make more sense...

Because IF you plane from one end, to avoid breaking out any pins at that end...the plane will break out pins on the other end....IF you switch around to plane the other end, you will be going against the grain of the tail board, and get tear out...

Steven, you do not get tearout when …

1. You plan ahead and arrange that the grain runs towards the rear of the drawer.

2. You plane with a double iron. Then you can indeed plane into the grain.

Before any planing begins, you need to determine just where wood needs to come off. One does not just start planing willy-nilly down the drawer side. Look for shiny high spots and take them off first. A block plane across the grain or a scraper, may be sufficient. The idea of just wacking a belt sander on the entire length is for cowboys.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Outstanding! Way to go! That's the way to kill a thread!

[Keegan Shields]

Trading precision for speed is a cost cutting measure in my experience. Not a judgement, just a general fact.

Loose fitting drawers are quicker than piston fit ones. Perhaps his customers don’t care. Sometimes, I think the general public could care less about the neat things we are into as woodworkers. I tried to explain what book matching was to my wife… she could care less. :)

[Derek Cohen]

Outstanding! Way to go! That's the way to kill a thread!

Why Steven, because I disagreed with you?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

One other item...sides have a bad habit of cupping over time....weather related....which will cause a drawer to stick, IF it is in a "Piston-fit" opening.

[Derek Cohen]

Again, Steven, choose your materials to match the design. I use quarter sawn timber (usually Tasmanian Oak, because that is what is available to me) for drawer sides. Quartersawn cuts are very stable.

Bottom line: be aware of design possibilities. There is no reason not to use piston-fit designs. I know that you are just trying to get the last word in here, but first get your facts straight to stop me correcting what ends up as poor advice for others to follow.


Quarter sawn sides:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestFinal_html_m3ff2bd0b.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestFinal_html_23b3cc36.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

The first time you plane past the end of a work piece and split it, you learn not to do it again. You figure out that you need to plane into the wood, or create chamfers so the cuter doesn't catch the edges, etc. It's basic learning.

In the case of drawer sides, use the cap iron as it should be and you won't get tear out. It's not an herculean task to figure out how to set the cap iron up and use it.

Derek also makes a good point, pick your timber appropriately, not just the species, but whether flat, rift, or quarter sawn will work for your application and you will avoid issues related to wood movement. Not that I'm a fan of piston fitting, but neither am I of floppy drawers.

[steven c newman]

All too often..secondary wood choices, aren't quite as stable as the primary wood....BTDT...

[Rafael Herrera]

I've a restoration project which consists of a chest of drawers in the American Empire style. It's pretty old, I wouldn't be surprised if it was made in the 1830s. Arguably, a time period where hand tool use predominated. What I like the most of this piece is the flamed mahogany veneer used in its construction. I think we loose track of what is important in a well made piece of furniture. I could care less how neatly the dovetail joints are made. When I look at this piece, for example, I marvel at the wonderful veneer it has, I do not look at the sides or back of the drawers. A dovetail joint just needs to be made with care and proficiency, if you're the maker, just learn how to do them, there are more important aspects to the making of furniture. If you want to use a belt sander, knock yourself out. It's not needed, but it's not forbidden either. I wouldn't use it because I would dislike the noise and the dust.

Here's the piece. The dovetails are in the fancy small pin style. You can see the DTs at the front and back of the drawers. The sides don't look like they were planed, perhaps that means the cabinet maker built them in such a way that that step was not necessary.

Despite its age, there are no issues with cupping or warping on any of the pine (they look like pine) boards.

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497137497138497140

Rafael

[mike stenson]

It was also made at a point in time where very little effort was spent on non-show surfaces. IMO, as it should really be.. perfection on non-show surfaces really seems to have appeared at during industrialization.

[Jim Koepke]

The dovetails are in the fancy small pin style.

Someone posted a link about dovetail in this or the other dovetail thread that included a reason for the "fancy small pin style" dovetails.

It was discovered the small pins reduced the exposed end grain on the pin board. This effectively reduced moisture exchange by the pin board during changes in humidity. This lessened movement, which helped to keep the drawer sides from splitting.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Someone posted a link about dovetail in this or the other dovetail thread that included a reason for the "fancy small pin style" dovetails.

That was me :D

[steven c newman]

Starting to sound just like another "Sharpening Thread"....down to splitting the hairs in a Turkey's Beard...

You all have fun, now, ya hear? I've have boxes to build....carry on! I'll be in the area all day....as I used to say...