Spindle moulder setting up for curved work

[Paul Ricard]

Hi guys,
I have Felder F900Z spindle moulder along with the Felder Curve Moulding Guard. My current project is to make curved windows and a big 4 sash balcony door.
The shape of the frame, which is 2.7meters wide, is shown in .pdf attachment below. My question is:
What is the best way to setup spindle moulder machine to machine such a long piece using a template?
I am thinking of making the template from 12mm MDF but I am not sure how to fix the 68mm piece of long wood on the template properly. FYI, the guide ring is put on the top of the shaping tool.
Also, what about using the power feeder to hold it down and push it against the tool?

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Thanks in advance.

[Mel Fulks]

Hi guys,
I have Felder F900Z spindle moulder along with the FelderCurve Moulding Guard. My current project is to make curved windows and a big 4 sash balcony door.
The shape of the frame, which is 2.7meters wide, is shown in .pdf attachment below. My question is:
What is the best way to setup spindle moulder machine to machine such a long piece using a template?
I am thinking of making the template from 12mm MDF but I am not sure how to fix the 68mm piece of long wood on the template properly. FYI, the guide ring is put on the top of the shaping tool.
Also, what about using the power feeder to hold it down and push it against the tool?

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Thanks in advance.
Ive done a lot of those. Always nailed or screwed the template to the back of the material. Without face down ,moulded edges won’t be
as consistent . For curved work you can often use just ONE wheel ,and guide by hand. Some jobs ,in my experience, have required a
“spring hold-down”, easily made ,or bought. With such a low segment you might be alright with one piece, but I prefer two pieces
splined together.

[Kevin Jenness]

For hand-fed curves with a bottom mounted bearing or guide collar I like to use toggle clamps with sandpaper glued to a 19mm jig under the stock. For a top-mounted guide you need another approach. Is there a surface you can screw to, the back, inside or outside of the piece? To fasten into the edges or ends, build flanges into the jig. You can use double sided tape but a positive mechanical fastening is more sure. You will want to extend the template past the ends of the workpiece, and for handfeeding provide a wide base plate with handles well away from the cutter. You could mount toggle clamps to a baseplate and clamp down on both the template and workpiece. However you set it up the fastening method needs to be solid and reliable so nothing shifts

A powerfeed with one wheel will allow steering the work, and can be supplemented with other hold-downs. Provide support on both in and outfeed. 68 mm is a substantial cut so rough out with minimal material to trim away. Depending on your tooling you may want a double faced jig that allows turning over so that you are always cutting downhill with the grain, or segment the piece as Mel suggests, although that is not a very acute curve. Segmented cutterheads are more tolerant of varying grain direction.

[Paul Ricard]

Ive done a lot of those. Always nailed or screwed the template to the back of the material. Without face down ,moulded edges won’t be
as consistent . For curved work you can often use just ONE wheel ,and guide by hand. Some jobs ,in my experience, have required a
“spring hold-down”, easily made ,or bought. With such a low segment you might be alright with one piece, but I prefer two pieces
splined together.

Thanks for the quick answer.
Do you mean that you screw the template on top of the material?
Also what do you mean by two pieces splined together?

Thanks again for the hints.

[Mel Fulks]

Yes , face of material on “the iron” . The spline to hold two pieces together is used when there is a possibility of breaking , like hinged
stuff . As flat as your arc is one piece is OK . The side that will be outside in the weather should have the ‘bark-side’ facing the outside air , since any conifer wood not bark-side out has a good chance “rough grain pop-up “no matter how well painted .

[Paul Ricard]

Thank you for your time replying to this thread guys,
I assume that spline two pieces is the same thing like the method in the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhmyXuf9mCY
Most of my profiling tools remove quite a bit of wood from the piece as you can see in the tool drawings. So I believe that with one pass, it would be quite difficult to push through the material while having only one wheel of power feeder and my hands to help. How do you manage to make use of one wheel only from power feeder? And how could I rough out most of the material? Two shallow passes are possible probably by having a wider copy bearing guide on the top of the shape tool?
Also, is there any room for the base plate while the power feeder is in use?

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[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
I am semiretired but still build Euro doors mostly now and still a few windows. For curves on these I run the template on top screwed to the workpiece using one wheeel on the feeder. The wheel should be positioned approximately 20mm off center to the cutter to the infeed side. Some feeders you can tilt up on their nose, some you have to remove wheels.
on arched windows and doors I normally do the inside sash cuts first screwing the template into waste part of outside. For the final outside cit the template can be screwed to blocks mounted in the glass rebate or through the tenons on the rails. The advantage of template on top is you can go from profiling the straight pieces to curves without changing the cutter height.

the outside cuts (storm proofing) can be very deep and I usually do in 2 passes using a adjustable dead collar. If using bearings a couple different sizes is helpful. Sometimes I shape the inside before assembly and sometimes after. Depending on joinery and size. For the outside cuts sometimes I use a false fence bridging the cutter head instead of a dead collar.

Hopefully the pictures will explain better.
Joe
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[William Hodge]

Tilt the stock feeder so only one wheel hits. The wheel should toe in 5 degrees to the tangent of the cutting circle.
I use a starting pin made out of a piece of wood clamped to the table. The wood holds the dust collection hose. I add wood as needed to guard the sides, top, and back. For convex curved work, the fences can stay on the shaper.

[Paul Ricard]

Paul,
I am semiretired but still build Euro doors mostly now and still a few windows. For curves on these I run the template on top screwed to the workpiece using one wheeel on the feeder. The wheel should be positioned approximately 20mm off center to the cutter to the infeed side. Some feeders you can tilt up on their nose, some you have to remove wheels.
on arched windows and doors I normally do the inside sash cuts first screwing the template into waste part of outside. For the final outside cit the template can be screwed to blocks mounted in the glass rebate or through the tenons on the rails. The advantage of template on top is you can go from profiling the straight pieces to curves without changing the cutter height.

the outside cuts (storm proofing) can be very deep and I usually do in 2 passes using a adjustable dead collar. If using bearings a couple different sizes is helpful. Sometimes I shape the inside before assembly and sometimes after. Depending on joinery and size. For the outside cuts sometimes I use a false fence bridging the cutter head instead of a dead collar.

Hopefully the pictures will explain better.
Joe
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Joe, thanks for your useful info on this.
Do you firstly trim the wood that is a bit bigger than template and then pass it through the tool or you leave the excess to be machined directly?
Also, I have only one guide bearing, which allows for one pass full depth.
What is adjustable dead collar and how a false fence bridged the cutter head?

Thanks.

[brent stanley]

Fun project! With such a long piece, I'd be inclined to find a way to attach and/or clamp the template at many places along the rail to make sure the two stay snug together. I have just attached templates to the rail through the tenons before milling in the past, but that's only two points of contact. One real advantage of template on the top is that your profile machining can all be done at the same time for the whole unit and everything is identical. It sounds like you're headed there anyway. For some reason I always see folks skimping on the lead in and lead out portion of the template. Especially with a long component like this, give yourself lots of lead in and lead out material....it's cheap and makes for less stress.

[Kevin Jenness]

Paul,
For curves on these I run the template on top screwed to the workpiece using one wheel on the feeder.

Joe, how do you deal with the screw holes for clear finished work? Filler? Screws or nails into the top face simplifies things a lot if the holes are not objectionable.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, thanks for your useful info on this.
Do you firstly trim the wood that is a bit bigger than template and then pass it through the tool or you leave the excess to be machined directly?
Also, I have only one guide bearing, which allows for one pass full depth.
What is adjustable dead collar and how a false fence bridged the cutter head?


Thanks.

Paul,
first the template is made. Notice I did not route totally through for the outside cut as this is done last. Also I can screw into the waste wood to hold it for the inside cut.
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Next rough bandsaw the inside cut to 3 to 4mm of the finish cut. Don’t cut the outside yet so you have something to screw into.
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Oops, wrong picture this is a setup for shaping without a template using the split tooling method. That is another discussion. But the routed lines in the picture are the finish cut and I am cutting close to that.
Here is a picture of the workpiece bandsawed close to the line ready for inside sash cut. Notice the template is screwed to the tenons. You can see the adjustable dead collar above the cutter. If you have the Felder curve hood it should have a simple adj collar?
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here is a example of a shop made false fence. Different process but you get the idea. With this method you can take smaller cuts moving the fence back to get to target size.
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[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, how do you deal with the screw holes for clear finished work? Filler? Screws or nails into the top face simplifies things a lot if the holes are not objectionable.


Kevin,
no screw holes in finish work. If you look at the first picture upstream notice the template is screwed to blocks in the glass rebate.
there is always a way to attach templates.
This just completed unit was made partially with templates and on the larger pieces no templates using split tools.
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[David M Peters]

While template routing 1.5" thick curved chair legs I've had good success using the "superglue sandwiched between paint tape" technique for holding the template to the top of the work. The tape peels off easily with no damage to the work. I do first bandsaw fairly close to the line (perhaps 1/8" away) in order to keep the excitement down. I figure that if I'm not pushing as hard to do the cut then I'll also exert less lateral pressure on the glued-on template. I can get away with 3, ~4" strips of tape for each 36" chair leg. Each strip of tape has 3-4 dots of medium CA.

I do realize that OP is dealing with a bigger project but the technique might work with more tape and/or glue.

[Paul Ricard]

I use a starting pin made out of a piece of wood clamped to the table. The wood holds the dust collection hose. I add wood as needed to guard the sides, top, and back. For convex curved work, the fences can stay on the shaper.

Thanks for the info, could you please share a photo, if available, regarding the info in this quote?
Thanks.

[Paul Ricard]

Oops, wrong picture this is a setup for shaping without a template using the split tooling method. That is another discussion. But the routed lines in the picture are the finish cut and I am cutting close to that.
Here is a picture of the workpiece bandsawed close to the line ready for inside sash cut. Notice the template is screwed to the tenons. You can see the adjustable dead collar above the cutter. If you have the Felder curve hood it should have a simple adj collar?
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It seems that Felder sells the adjustable collar separately, this sucks! Hopefully, they send bolts and screws, what a nightmare!
https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/arc-cutter-guard-sc91606/curve-moulding-guard-sp91612

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
Yes, it’s the same with the Aigner the collars are sold separately. The Aigner ones have to be ordered according to bore size. I have one similar to what Felder sells. It works fine just a little more cumbersome to set up but good for shops not doing a lot of curve work. I used bearings and starting pins for years but these hoods are a big improvement over that. Plus they keep dust from flying everywhere.
the adjustable dead collar makes for versatile setups. Here are pictures using them to put the rebates in glass beads and the door moulding of the door pictured above.
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[Paul Ricard]

Joe, thanks for the info.
Another question I would like to ask is related to the way a long beam is made.
In my case, 2.7m long piece of gentle curved wood, would it be best to have two or three pieces glued together using the finger joint method?

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
On segments my rule is pieces no wider than 7 1/2” plus or minus. Any wider and you end up with a lot of short grain. A lot of the early 1900s millwork used wide or one piece heads and they are prone to cracking. It’s easy to figure out in CAD or a full size drawing.
Finger joints are strong and good for door and window work. But other methods like dowels, loose tenons or slot and tenon work also. On profiled casings I use short tenons as the finger joints look weird in profiled trim.
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[brent stanley]

Nice pictures Joe, I'm terrible at taking progress shots.

Did you ever give bent lamination or steam bending a try for that work, or not worth the time?


Paul,
On segments my rule is pieces no wider than 7 1/2” plus or minus. Any wider and you end up with a lot of short grain. A lot of the early 1900s millwork used wide or one piece heads and they are prone to cracking. It’s easy to figure out in CAD or a full size drawing.
Finger joints are strong and good for door and window work. But other methods like dowels, loose tenons or slot and tenon work also. On profiled casings I use short tenons as the finger joints look weird in profiled trim.
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[Paul Ricard]

Paul,
On segments my rule is pieces no wider than 7 1/2” plus or minus. Any wider and you end up with a lot of short grain. A lot of the early 1900s millwork used wide or one piece heads and they are prone to cracking. It’s easy to figure out in CAD or a full size drawing.
Finger joints are strong and good for door and window work. But other methods like dowels, loose tenons or slot and tenon work also. On profiled casings I use short tenons as the finger joints look weird in profiled trim.
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Great job Joe, bravo! I see you make frames pieces by gluing 2 pieces together making one 2-ply beam.
Because my frame case is 2.7m wide, I would like to ask about the proper width of frame jambs and crosspieces. I have the following frame, where only the upper is curved, and the 4 sashes will close to the red horizontal frame. They will be square, normal ones. Do you think the proper width would be 100mm or 90mm is enough? Thickness remains 68mm.
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Thanks again.

[Joe Calhoon]

Great job Joe, bravo! I see you make frames pieces by gluing 2 pieces together making one 2-ply beam.
Because my frame case is 2.7m wide, I would like to ask about the proper width of frame jambs and crosspieces. I have the following frame, where only the upper is curved, and the 4 sashes will close to the red horizontal frame. They will be square, normal ones. Do you think the proper width would be 100mm or 90mm is enough? Thickness remains 68mm.
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Thanks again.

Paul,
For my IV 68 window system the window frame and sash scantlings are all 78 or 80 mm wide. The 68mm thickness is made of 3 layers of 24mm thick material. S4S down to the 68mm thickness. In the case of your window I would be comfortable making everything 80 mm wide as most is supported by the wall framing. You could make the straight horizontal piece at the top a little wider since it is unsupported and will receive profiling and rebates both sides. 90 or 100 mm ok for that.
Picture of IV 68 scantlings.
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The big window door units with the door in the center is a different situation. Since the inner parts are unsupported by wall framing I make those wider 100 mm plus just to help stiffness if the door gets closed hard.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Nice pictures Joe, I'm terrible at taking progress shots.

Did you ever give bent lamination or steam bending a try for that work, or not worth the time?

Brent,
I’ve done plenty of curved lamination for North American style doors. The jambs are thin on these usually 1 1/4 or thicker for exterior doors.
Hard to do segments at these thicknesses. The Euro doors with frame thickness of 68 -78 or 92mm lend themselves to the segmented frame approach. It’s the right way to do those. I have no desire to try steam bending for jambs. We toured the Thonet factory in Germany. There was some master work of steam bending in that shop!

Curved laminated is the most economical way to produce curved jambs but better is bricklaying cores with veneered show surfaces. This solves the problem of spring back in laminated work. Very labor intensive though.
Picture is a Mesquite door unit we built several years ago using the bricklaying method.

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[brent stanley]

Brent,
I’ve done plenty of curved lamination for North American style doors. The jambs are thin on these usually 1 1/4 or thicker for exterior doors.
Hard to do segments at these thicknesses. The Euro doors with frame thickness of 68 -78 or 92mm lend themselves to the segmented frame approach. It’s the right way to do those. I have no desire to try steam bending for jambs. We toured the Thonet factory in Germany. There was some master work of steam bending in that shop!

Curved laminated is the most economical way to produce curved jambs but better is bricklaying cores with veneered show surfaces. This solves the problem of spring back in laminated work. Very labor intensive though.
Picture is a Mesquite door unit we built several years ago using the bricklaying method.

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Lots of great details and pictures there Joe thanks. I've always been able to get bent laminations to work here with thinner sections being more common but some things were awkward. I took a steam bending course from the local guru and its fascinating. 80% science, 20% art it seems, but great results with it all works.

Thanks again,
B

[Paul Ricard]

Paul,
On arched windows and doors I normally do the inside sash cuts first screwing the template into waste part of outside. For the final outside cut the template can be screwed to blocks mounted in the glass rebate or through the tenons on the rails.


Hi Joe, I would like to ask something on a previous post of yours above: I attach here the inner and outer profile of sashes. I assume that my tools' orientation is quite the same as yours,
but I cannot figure out where could I screw the template (red rectangle) without damaging the visible surface of sash when machining inner sash?

Thanks.


***Edit: Never mind, I figured out that you leave outer part of wood (out of template) uncut in order to put the screws.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, yes inside cuts first with screws in the waste area. Then several ways to attach for the outside cut. In the picture I have attached blocks in the glass rebate then screwing into those. See the picture below. You can also attach to the tenons. If no tenons for dowel or domino construction make a counter piece screwed into the end then attach the template to that.

Now, if this is your first time curve shaping be very careful. Be sure the jig is overhanging the ends by 3 or 4 inches. Take very light cuts using your adjustable collar. In fact before turning the shaper on make dry runs using the feeder. It won’t damage the cutter if turned not to make contact with the workpiece. A lot of curve shaping is knowing what to expect when wood meets cutter.

I see from your drawing your cutters are set up for glass bead removal from the scantling. Normally for curves an additional cutter is required to allow using a 5mm router bit to cut the bead out. That gets expensive. I usually waste the bead out with a rebate cutter then make a separate bead.

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[Paul Ricard]

Paul, yes inside cuts first with screws in the waste area. Then several ways to attach for the outside cut. In the picture I have attached blocks in the glass rebate then screwing into those. See the picture below. You can also attach to the tenons. If no tenons for dowel or domino construction make a counter piece screwed into the end then attach the template to that.

Now, if this is your first time curve shaping be very careful. Be sure the jig is overhanging the ends by 3 or 4 inches. Take very light cuts using your adjustable collar. In fact before turning the shaper on make dry runs using the feeder. It won’t damage the cutter if turned not to make contact with the workpiece. A lot of curve shaping is knowing what to expect when wood meets cutter.

I see from your drawing your cutters are set up for glass bead removal from the scantling. Normally for curves an additional cutter is required to allow using a 5mm router bit to cut the bead out. That gets expensive. I usually waste the bead out with a rebate cutter then make a separate bead.

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Hi Joe, regarding the waste part of the wood, before you profile the piece, do you trim it to the template?

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
here is the sequence for building the rustic white oak door in the picture above.
tenoning of parts before any curves are cut.
Next profiling of inner parts. I call this inside sash profiling even if it’s a door. This particular door had large bolection moulding so inside cut was a simple square edge profile with grooves to holde the base for the mouldings.
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Next assembly with the waste area of the top rail bandsawed to 1/8” plus of the finish cut. The stiles are left long to insure square clamping.
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The top outside cut (stormproofing) cut is done first otherwise the chipout would be hard to control at the top of stiles. Here I rough cut the stiles with a jigsaw. 68mm thick white oak is easier to cut on the bandsaw but in the case of this door I left the stile ends for last.
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Next, jig for outside cut is attached using blocks attached to the inside rebate.
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Finished outside profile on top.
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Then continue outside profiling of the door using a a false fence to close up for the 220mm diameter cutter and removing 1 mm from the edge in the process.
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Door with mouldings installed.
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[brent stanley]

Super interesting, thanks Joe.

With the 1mm removal step, the yellow portion of your fence is actually straight (not stepped by 1mm) but the arrangement/position of the cutter underneath is such that it takes 1mm off the whole edge except for the bit riding against the yellow portion? Is that correct? With your CNC fences and spindle height you just have the cutter/fence configurations programmed in so it's fast and easy to set? Could be done with a manual machine but I expect would be much slower.

So if I may ask a question, if you were doing coped tenons with profiled inner edge stiles would any of your steps change? Thanks again for the great pics.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Brent,
on shapers or profilers the fence has to be stepped to remove the 1mm. See photo below, the only purpose of this fence is to close the opening of the 200mm plus profiling cutter.
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Especially needed for outside profiling smaller size sash.
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I also use this fence and several others like it on both my manual shapers, sure a little longer setup time but if your fences are highly tuned and the shaper has a good fine adjustment not that hard to setup. A lot of days I’m doing 10 to 15 setups and that is where a CNC fence saves time.
For profiled inside cuts on doors and windows the inside profiling cut is different than the door pictured above. I use the split fence removing 1mm from the edge. These cutters are usually smaller diameter and don’t require the add on fence. (Or if working imperial usually 1/16”). The outboard fence could be used for this but on doors that requires many settings on the fence. If your shaper is well tuned and in capable hands this works fine. I do use the outside fence when short cabinet type door pieces are involved and sometimes on tilt turn windows to keep the fit between frame and sash precise.

The door pictured above is a simple square edge detail and only required a groove for profiling. My S4S is clean so no need to remove the entire edge and just used a adjustable groover.

[brent stanley]

Thanks Joe, that's a much better picture angle. In the other pic it didn't look like there was a step there at all and the components didn't even look flush, but that's much more straightforeward. It looked like some part was being cut and some wasn't, and I was trying to figure out how it worked, but those pics show it clearly, thanks.

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, I might have missed something regarding outside trimming of curved frames:
Do you use special trim tool to trim the waste outside area of the beam?

Also, it seems that your templates are made from 18mm melamine. Is 12mm ok tough?
Thanks.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
Outside of frame is usually flat so I normally use my 80 mm high spiral cutter or a larger Tersa head to trim these to a template. My IV 68 - 78 set has an outside frame cutter that put grooves in to lock spray foam sealant to the frame. The more preferred 575 Pro Clima sealing tapes do better with a flat surface and that is what I use now.
18 mm melamine is fine. I just use what I have laying around, cover sheets etc. sometimes if the window isn’t large I just cut it close on the bandsaw and use the edge sander to take it to the line. Outside cut on frames doesn’t need to be super precise

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[Paul Ricard]

I have the following tool, its diameter=116mm and height=100mm, but don't have a ball bearing tool of that diameter to copy from template.
However, I have a 130mm bearing copy tool and an adjustable collar I just got from Felder.

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What is the best way to use this trim tool?
By putting collar on top and then adjust it to face trim the wood? Or by using the 130mm bearing copy tool and make a template 130-116=14mm narrower to trim the wood?

Thanks.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, I think the new tool you have from Felder would be safer and easier to use. If you have the Felder adjustable collar you should be able to use the 130 diameter cutter with or without the bearing. Easier without in my opinion. With the adjustable collar no need to make templates bigger or smaller. This can get complex. If you post a picture of what you have from Felder would be helpful

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, here is the collar I got from Felder: https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/arc-cutter-guard-sc91606/curve-moulding-guard-sp91612
Below, there are some photos from the spindle-collar-tool assembly (I suppose this is how collar should be mounted on top of the tool) and two videos showing that the moulding guard (https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/arc-cutter-guard-sc91606/curve-moulding-guard-sp91609) is not so stable under medium pressure. Also, I think the collar is quite thin.

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https://www.youtube.com/shorts/m8H3maFSScE

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7tZTbr8Pijw

Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Thanks.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul,
OK, looks like your inside sash cutter that is set up for bead removal. The final pass the adjustable dead collar would be set to the zero of the cutter set. Your drawings should show where this is. These type curve guards usually do not have a scale on them like the Aigner or Suva but not too hard to manually adjust. Like I said before if you are new to this don’t try to take it in one pass.
The Felder hood does look a little flimsy. Maybe someone here that has used them could chime in with some tips. Below is a picture of the hood that came with my Hofmann shaper. Don’t know the brand but other than being fussy to set it works ok.

One issue I see is your tools on the sleeve are stacked lower and might require a thick template to catch the adjustable collar. I run into this with some of my tools. The sleeves can be taken apart to move the tooling up but be careful if for shapers the sleeves are usually set up so no height changes are needed for the process. In the end this might be a case where easier to run template on bottom. If you do change the height of the stack be sure to keep notes on the spacers to be able to get it back to original so it doesn’t disturb the height settings for normal work. Looking at the picture it might be possible that the collar might clear the locking rings of the sleeve but it might be close.

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[Paul Ricard]

Joe, yes this is inside sash profile tool which my curve hood can support with adjustable collar.
However, it does not support some of my other profiling tools, like upper crosspiece and jambs frame profiling or sash outside profiling tool. Those tools' diameter is 216mm, and they are only supported from the 220mm Felder's hood (https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/arc-cutter-guard-sc91606/aigner-bowmould-shaper-guard-sp91610) (https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/arc-cutter-guard-sc91606/aigner-bowmould-shaper-guard-sp91610), which would cost around 1200€. The cost is a bit high for me since Ι don't have too much curved work to do. So, I thought that a workaround for my adjustable collar would be to buy a 150mm bearing copy ring (~80€) to make the 1st pass, then use 130mm copy ring for the 2nd final pass, especially in above profile tools that take too much of material out of the wood. Please, let me know your thoughts on this.

Your collar seems a lot sturdier than Felder's one. You are right about the inside sash tool being stacked lower. Luckily, spindle has a digital height display and it makes it a lot easier to adjust spindle's height when extra rings get into the stack. The frame profile tool is a bit better, however, yes I need a template of thickness, let's say 36mm.

[Paul Ricard]

Finally I decided to make my own ball bearing ring of 170mm diameter with 21mm plywood.
Also some thick templates will help reach that bearing too.

[brent stanley]

Finally I decided to make my own ball bearing ring of 170mm diameter with 21mm plywood.
Also some thick templates will help reach that bearing too.

I have seen folks make their own ring fences too. If out of thicker ply it would be easy to make it stiffer than what you showed.

[Joe Calhoon]

Some euro shapers including Felder have a raised ring on the back side of the table rings. Just flip them over and you have a dead collar. You just have to work around whatever diameter they are.

[Paul Ricard]

Some euro shapers including Felder have a raised ring on the back side of the table rings. Just flip them over and you have a dead collar. You just have to work around whatever diameter they are.

Joe, could you please clarify this? I assume you mean the table rings below.

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Thanks.

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes, inserted upside down like your second photo

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, you are right, they could be used as collars but their diameter is totally different to my tools' diameter and to what I need to work with. Also the template should be under the wood.
So, I stick to ball bearing rings and I am thinking of using some starting pin to help me start feeding the wood in the tool.

Also, I made the first template out of melamine. The outer left and right pair of holes indicate the final sash width, leaving about 5cm waste area to help infeeding and outfeeding.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Yes, if you cannot use the hood a starting pin or better yet a ramp attached to the top to allow starting the workpiece. I think a starting pin used with the feeder could be sketchy. A ramp better.

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks for the quick answer.
Do you mean that you screw the template on top of the material?
Also what do you mean by two pieces splined together?

Thanks again for the hints.

one piece can spring some because of angled ‘short grain’. Two pieces splined , just make a stronger, non bending unit.
In most cases I put template on the top , as I see material on the machine table as most consistent for accuracy, especially when
the work will get a moulding also done on shaper.

[Tom Trees]

Roy Sutton's old videos are the best I've seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwdJsT8Sdwc

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, looking at your picture the 2 pieces look like they are fingerjointed together. You will not get any spring with this material at 68 mm thick.
one thing I see wrong and dangerous is your template should be overhanging the ends by 2 or 3 inches both ends.

[Kevin Jenness]

497589Is that blank one piece or two joined together? What is the cause of the breakout at the end and center? Did the workpiece end engage the cutter before the template? As Joe said the template should be longer and you need a starting pin or ramp if not using a dead collar serving the same purpose.

[Joe Calhoon]

Kevin, it’s the breakout from his fingerjoint of the 2 pieces.
Paul, looking again at your picture that is a big bite you are taking. If you are unable to use the hood and dead collar some larger diameter bearings would be safer making the cut in a few passes. The curve is pretty gentle you could also make a curved fence that clamps to the table and keep moving it back. I am seeing dangerous setups here!

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, Kevin, thanks for your feedback.
That photo actually illustrates a test fit of template on the wood.
I have indeed in mind that template should be larger than the piece, I am going to trim cut the edges of the wood.

Last days I think of making an adjustable collar and its base/hood from plywood in my CNC like the following one but of larger and adjustable height:

497650

Thanks.

[brent stanley]

This chap has a fair amount of good spindle moulder content and at around the 5 minute mark you can see a homemade ring fence in action: https://youtu.be/h0ogBu1iXi4

B



Joe, Kevin, thanks for your feedback.
That photo actually illustrates a test fit of template on the wood.
I have indeed in mind that template should be larger than the piece, I am going to trim cut the edges of the wood.

Last days I think of making an adjustable collar and its base/hood from plywood in my CNC like the following one but of larger and adjustable height:

497650

Thanks.

[Paul Ricard]

This chap has a fair amount of good spindle moulder content and at around the 5 minute mark you can see a homemade ring fence in action: https://youtu.be/h0ogBu1iXi4

B

Yeap, this is where I got the screenshot from.

[brent stanley]

Yeap, this is where I got the screenshot from.

Haha, small world. His holding system could use a little work, but provides the gist of the fence anyway.

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, you've said that tenons should be cut first. In curved sashes, what is the best way to cut tenons?
How could template help cutting the tenons while it overhangs the edges by 2-3 inches?

497888 497889

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, better to cut the tenons first. Otherwise you would need a counter back up block to prevent tear out on the profile.this can be difficult with window tools but not impossible.
With segment workpieces the sliding table needs to be set at an angle. Usually the same angle your segments were cut.
first 2 pictures are coping a 2 piece frame head. Tenoning would be same setup.
Last picture profile shaping a pre tenoned door rail.
jo497969
497970
497971

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, thanks for clarifying this. I understand the spindle moulder's support angle is the same as the segments' joint angle, however, in the first 2 pictures, is the wood piece cut to its final length and final angle? Are the tenons cut exactly to the required depth so as jamb is fitted exactly to that depth?

And what about jambs pieces? Is this the same setup? And are they cut in angle to their final length and then being mortised?

Thanks.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, yes cut to the exact length with angle on the saw first. It’s tricky with curves on the shaper. I usually sneak up on it. Those pictures are coped frame joints that makes it a little simpler than slot and tenon. You have to do the stiles for slots also. Or do blind mortises and not the slots. It’s always a call to figure out the simplest method.
he is one example of a sash that I did and made the slots on the vertical stiles straight across then bandsawed the tenons to fit. This was simpler than cutting angled slots on the end of the stiles.
Are you in Europe or the US?

498046

[Paul Ricard]

Joe, thanks for the info, it makes sense now. I am in Europe.
The straight slots in jambs is better solution when horizontal tenons are cut in 90 degrees angle as your photo shows.
I am going to make templates a bit more helpful in cutting pieces in the exact length and angle.

Also, I am thinking of a way to cut the glass bead somehow. One solution would be to make multiple passes with a 3mm router bit in a handheld router using the template positioned up offset on the wood.

Thanks.

[Joe Calhoon]

Paul, since the glass bead removal is set to be cut with a 3mm saw blade using a 3mm router blade can be done but tricky. Usually not enough length of the bit to cut through the bead. I have tried it but could never find a bit long enough.
The solution most tooling mfgs offer is a separate inside sash cutter with a 5 mm offset of the bead so easier to cut with a router and made with split tooling so as to be able to run without templates from the original router trammel cut. Of course more expense! In all cases it’s easier too do this with a trammel so at to eliminate the thickness of a jig.