How to cut the lid of a box.

[Peter Daniels]

I’ve struggled w/ the top/lid on more than one box.
And so I’ve wandered the web, and posted my question here.
The usual answer is that I make a box that’s the same on the top as it is the bottom. Sure. I like that idea. Nice and square, pert near perfectly ready to have it cut off, then hinges added.

But my ripping skills are rickety at best.
So how does a clown go about cutting the top of a box off? Perfectly?
Each one I’ve done results in less than perfect cuts and nothing close to square.

I used a fence of sorts, it helped, but the resulting edges still were’s as clean as I’d like.

I tried w/ western saws and pull saws.

Thanks in advance.
—P

[steven c newman]

Boxes that I build...I just use a Disston No. 4 backsaw....I cut the ends first...then connect them to the sides...last cut, I add a shim in the kerf.

One other tip: Use a cutting gauge to mark the cut line exactly where you need to saw the lid free at...and let the saw follow that.

[Ben Ellenberger]

I’ve done it on several boxes with both western and pull saws. If I have a western back saw that is big enough, I’ll use that. A ryoba is a little trickier for me, but I’ve gotten good results with one. The really thin kerf is a plus with a ryoba.

Stevens advice about marking out your line is important. I’ve also marked each side I want to keep first, then cut in the middle of the two lines.

For me the biggest thing is to take my time. If you start feeling rushed step back for a second. I’ll pick one corner and start working down from it, always cutting only one side at a time.

I’m pretty sure I got all four corners started last time before completing the cut across any one face. Once I get close to done I’ll use some painters tape to hold the lid on the opposite side so it doesn’t flop too much as I finish my last cut.

Finally, plan ahead when you lay the box out. If you know you’ll need 3/16” or a 1/4” of wiggle room, make the box that much bigger, then just commit to planing the excess off after you’ve cut the lid off. No one will be able to tell once you get everything cleaned up.

The first couple I did definitely took a lot of clean up.

[Richard Coers]

I would use a plow plane with a fence and an 1/8" cutter in it.

[Jim Koepke]

Don't feel bad Peter, I have had trouble with a handsaw cutting off the top of a box.

Good advice above. The top does not need to be the same as the bottom. Pre-cutting a kerf around the outside (and even inside) of the box before assembly can be very helpful when working with handsaws. This can be done with a marking gauge or a plow plane.

Cleaning off the saw marks is easy with a small bench plane:

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The bevel down blade with a chip breaker makes for easier planing compared to a block plane.


But my ripping skills are rickety at best.

As others have already mentioned, don't try to cut it all at once. Take one side at a time.

Also important is to secure the work. It is one less thing to cause a problem.

jtk

[Matt Carr1]

It has taken me longer than I thought it should to improve my hand sawing, and still not great. A lot of practice and patience and let the saw do the work. Helped me was Concentrate on keeping my wrist forearm and elbow in line.

[steven c newman]

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Called connect the dots...Sellers just used a knife line.
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Cut lines....This is on the end of the box...Backsaw to saw both corners towards the center of the end, until..
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Break through! Repeat for the other end...then, lay the box down...and connect two corners ...
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I replace this backsaw with another saw blade ...as a shim....then rotate the box and clamp it back into the vise....backsaw to connect the other 2 corners, until the parts separate.
(Note: Clamp the box as high as you can for this last cut, so things do not bind up)
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Use a long enough bench plane to span....level the saw cuts..
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Can be a #4....that one is a Millers Falls No. 11 Junior Jack...test for high spots...
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And that is about it..

[Jim Koepke]

It has taken me longer than I thought it should to improve my hand sawing, and still not great. A lot of practice and patience and let the saw do the work. Helped me was Concentrate on keeping my wrist forearm and elbow in line.

Yes, keeping your hand, wrist, elbow and forearm in line is an important element of sawing straight. This took me a while to get in synch. (BTW, this is also important with nailing. Once this was learned my nails stopped bending.)

Another helpful clue is to watch the reflection in the saw plate:

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For a straight 90º cut the reflection should look like an extension of the piece being sawn. This has even helped me with angled cuts like dovetails and miters.

The reflection is 3D. A rising or falling reflection indicates the saw is not plumb.

A turning reflection indicates the saw is not square to the edge.

At 45º the reflection will look like a perfect right angle.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Peter

There are two methods I use to get perfect cuts (is there any other way :) ).

The first is to use a tablesaw, and cut through all but a few mm of each side. Then use a backsaw or pull saw to cut the remainder. Finally, clean up with a hand plane.

That is my preferred method. No mucking about. However, since this is a hand tool forum, here is how I do it with hand tools. The example comes from a box I built about 10 years ago, and converted into two separate builds.

Started with this box …

https://i.postimg.cc/TRrtWSLv/5A3C8386-F0D9-4B2D-B13B-3806399D79B9.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

… and needed a diagonal cut, as in the photo ..

https://i.postimg.cc/9mmYwfHy/C81E7687-588A-43E6-AA86-36896216E383.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

First made a template (as it was more reliable than measuring and scribing) …

https://i.postimg.cc/xYstHLC8/829E6857-7F82-4A1C-9F90-C3AC4CD25ADD.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Drew/connected the lines.

Used a fence (this one has rare earth magnets to keep the saw plate from wandering) …

https://i.postimg.cc/B4XNCtLg/91A7048C-DD2D-4B45-BB8B-34690BC54F39.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/ssqmHy5R/4380-E69-B-604-C-4635-8-E09-3-DCF5-AD34264.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Sawed one side …

https://i.postimg.cc/zz80wjKb/C4E6144B-9608-4A95-9C94-D6D967307B85.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Then supported it from any movement with a hot-glued patch ..

https://i.postimg.cc/PhfSPSd0/C0CE4BC8-988C-4334-9098-FAEAF28E816A.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The result was a clean, accurate set of cuts …

https://i.postimg.cc/GLKzXyxM/8F90A226-85FA-4CDC-803F-FC6C31C128F7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

One piece became this lap desk …

https://i.postimg.cc/0kQwW5WD/A17.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/hDhd1j67/A3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

.. and the other piece became a box for a plough plane I built …

https://i.postimg.cc/0kQHQQfn/Box2-zps72f4bed3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/9mz3R1pv/Box3-zpsb9c88913.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[glenn bradley]

Spacers with tongues the same width as your blade kerf.
494200494199494198
Easy peasy.

[Luke Dupont]

My best advice when ripping is to mark two lines and rip between them. Somehow, that helps your eye track better.

That, and leave plenty of extra room to clean things up afterwards with a plane and plane it down flat. You'll always be a little off.

[Matt Carr1]

That is definitely a great fool proof way. Great looking box.

[Rafael Herrera]

I would use a marking gauge, saw above the line, mark the lid w the matking gauge and then plane the saw marks w a smoother.

[Peter Daniels]

Now that's everything I was hoping for! So many great techniques.
Naively, I didn't know I should have to plane the edges to something useable. Figured maybe some light sanding and it would be perfect.
This step of a project has me daunted. So much work behind me with a box, then (if history repeats) I'll make some beautiful long project into frustration.

But, I'm on it. I'll set it all up carefully. Use two lines. And will carefully work on the sawing.

And as for Paul Sellers? Well, I've watched and re-watched sooo many of his videos.
Parts of his techniques make sense. The knife wall is one that I've tried to repeat often. And still my cuts and edges are rarely as clean.
(but im happy to keep practicing and practicing.)

Thank you all.
-Peter

[Ben Ellenberger]

Go for it!

it is definitely a procedure that feels easier after the first few times you perform it.

[Mike Henderson]

Now that's everything I was hoping for! So many great techniques.
Naively, I didn't know I should have to plane the edges to something useable. Figured maybe some light sanding and it would be perfect.
This step of a project has me daunted. So much work behind me with a box, then (if history repeats) I'll make some beautiful long project into frustration.

Thank you all.
-Peter

I've sawn the top off of a box with a Japanese saw. As others have commented, I use a marking gauge to mark a line where to cut.

The next thing I do, after I've cut the top off, is to use a sanding board. This is an MDF board, maybe 2 feet by 2 feet, with a large piece of sandpaper glued to to it. The MDF is flat and the sandpaper is glued with spray glue so as not to warp the MDF.

Then I place the box pieces, one at at time on the sanding board and move the piece around until it's flat. You can put a pencil mark on the edge and when it's completely gone, the piece will be flat.

That way, the top will fit exactly to the rest of the box.

Mike

[steven c newman]

Note: IF one actually watches Paul Sellers cut a lid off of a box.....watch HOW he uses the corners of the box.....he will saw into each corner as carefully as he can. He will tilt the box in the bench vise so he can see the lines, AND follow them... Then the same with each end of the box...tilting it for best view..until the saw just "pops" through on the ends. He then uses the kerfs to help guide the 2 side cuts...again, tilting the box for the best view...until he has cut through one side. Then he will add shims to keep the kerf open...install in the vise as high as the vise can hold the box....He will work towards the center from each end, until the cut is through. He then uses a hand plane that will "bridge across" to level any high spots...and remove the saw marks....he levels at the ends first, spanning from one side to level the other. And works his way around....

Masterclass: Keepsake Box Project...

[Peter Daniels]

Has anyone here actually cut a box to create the lid w/ a plow plane?
I can’t think of a time I’ve planed anything all the way through. Seems like those last few shavings would result in a choppy remaining edge.

It’s funny how many of your suggestions were just ways to saw a clean straight line. Seems like a good reminded for me to revisit those fundamentals. Which seems like a lesson I’ve had to learn in other areas of life.

-PD

[steven c newman]

I use a Stanley 45 when I want to create a Dust Seal between the box and the lid...

[steven c newman]

Sometimes..we tend to over-think some of the easier tasks....

[Peter Daniels]

Once the sawdust is swept up tonight, I’ll revisit Paul’s videos on such tasks, thanks. I tend to drink my coffee and answer emails while it plays. Next time it will get more of my attention.

Things I’ve learned in the last few days of making sawdust.

It’s been easier for me to saw a clean straight line after creating a knife wall w/ a wester saw than Japanese. Interesting. All the times I’ve gone back and forth between them, Ive never noticed that.

Planing the tops back to a nice level line is tedious and surprisingly hard to do in a clean way. But- taking those paper thin shaves is surprisingly rewarding despite the occasional chunk removed after the toe of a plane smacks into a nearby square edge.

The large sheet of sandpaper wouldn’t have ever occurred to me. I like it. Thank you.

I just fell down an internet/eBay rabbit hole on the Stanley #45. What a contraption. Such a plane is exactly what I love to track down, sand, clean, sharpen, and the properly mess up a project with.
I’ll think on it, but think a skew plane I have might take a similar spot on my bench.


-PD

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Honestly, i was going to say a kerfing plane

[Peter Daniels]

Kerf Plane!!? That’s a thing? (Image searched commenced….yes, it’s a thing)
It reminds me of bumper bowling. Training wheels. Water wings.
All those things that are used to help someone get along for a bit while their skills come up to date.
I think it would help me cleanly complete this task.

[John Kananis]

Kerfing planes come in pretty handy sometimes. Here's one I made a bunch of years back. The main body is madrone and the screws are cherry.

[Derek Cohen]

How is a kerfing plane different from a saw?

As far as I am aware, kerfing planes would be filed rip. For box tops, you are sawing across the grain. You want to use a crosscut saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

EVERY box lid I have EVER sawn off from the box...it involves a RIP cut.....as the cut is a rip with the grain.....would be a Strange looking box IF you went across the grain...unles you were cutting a lid from one of the ends of the box...Hmmmm...might be fun the watch THAT happen...

Saw I used...Disston No. 4 backsaw, 14" in length..9ppi filed rip...works quite well...

[John Kananis]

How is a kerfing plane different from a saw?

As far as I am aware, kerfing planes would be filed rip. For box tops, you are sawing across the grain. You want to use a crosscut saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That's odd. Most box tops for me are rip cuts.

Edit: I'm not suggesting to use a kerfing plane but one certainly could.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Once the sawdust is swept up tonight, I’ll revisit Paul’s videos on such tasks, thanks. I tend to drink my coffee and answer emails while it plays. Next time it will get more of my attention.

Things I’ve learned in the last few days of making sawdust.

It’s been easier for me to saw a clean straight line after creating a knife wall w/ a wester saw than Japanese. Interesting. All the times I’ve gone back and forth between them, Ive never noticed that.

Planing the tops back to a nice level line is tedious and surprisingly hard to do in a clean way. But- taking those paper thin shaves is surprisingly rewarding despite the occasional chunk removed after the toe of a plane smacks into a nearby square edge.

The large sheet of sandpaper wouldn’t have ever occurred to me. I like it. Thank you.

I just fell down an internet/eBay rabbit hole on the Stanley #45. What a contraption. Such a plane is exactly what I love to track down, sand, clean, sharpen, and the properly mess up a project with.
I’ll think on it, but think a skew plane I have might take a similar spot on my bench.


-PD

glad you had a good outcome!

Ive had the same experience as you - I find a western saw easier than a Japanese, but both work.

I’ve had to learn to slow down and be aware of the plane when cleaning up boxes, drawers, etc. It is easy to catch a far corner with the plane. The Sellers videos have good demonstrations of how to angle a plane at the corners to minimize this. It is also a good way to learn to pay attention to where the plane blade is cutting, in relation to the rest of the sole.

I have touched up the edges of my #5 and #4 with a file, to ensure there isn’t a hard edge that can catch pieces when you plane around a corner.

[Derek Cohen]

EVERY box lid I have EVER sawn off from the box...it involves a RIP cut.....as the cut is a rip with the grain.....would be a Strange looking box IF you went across the grain...unles you were cutting a lid from one of the ends of the box...Hmmmm...might be fun the watch THAT happen...

Saw I used...Disston No. 4 backsaw, 14" in length..9ppi filed rip...works quite well...

:D Quite right, Steven. That’s my spatially- challenged side coming to the fore. I must not attempt to visualise this late at night!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

Well, don't use a rip saw. Use a crosscut tenon saw. Mark the cut with a mortise gauge with two sharpened pins,or use a Japanese mortise gauge. Saw between the lines. Leave a skosh for a very finely set smoother to clean it up and make the marked lines completely disappear, but just so. A 12pt. panel saw will work just as well if not better.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Cut open a box today. I just used a single pin to mark my line, then darkened it with a pencil. Worked each corner, taking my time to extend one direction at a time. Once all four corners were started I connected each end. Stuck little wedges in and used some tape to hold the lid on, then connected the cuts on the front and back. I was pretty happy with the outcome, it shouldn’t take much clean-up. Slow and steady!

496346496347496348496349

[Edward Weber]

Kerf Plane!!? That’s a thing? (Image searched commenced….yes, it’s a thing)
It reminds me of bumper bowling. Training wheels. Water wings.
All those things that are used to help someone get along for a bit while their skills come up to date.
I think it would help me cleanly complete this task.

They are used for much more than a training aide, I wouldn't categorize them that way. The styles with adjustable fences are quite versatile.
JMO

[Jack Dover]

I did a ton of stupid things in my life, using a plow plane for separating a lid was one of them. However, I think maybe a combination of a plow and sawing could work for someone who's not really great at sawing. Plowing a shallow groove outside, maybe 1/16" or even 1/8" would really help to keep saw straight. There are plows with 1/8" iron, that's totally enough for a kerf and cleanup.

[Jack Dover]

Yeah, was going to say that. For whatever reasons two lines help to saw in between them. Also this could be a tool problem, no matter how good you're at sawing, if a saw doesn't track well - it will go off the track. So I would also suggest finding a decent hardened tooth saw from a big box store, they usually set evenly by a machine and they generally track well. Then I would practice on scraps and compare how my other saw tracks.

Another trick is if you find yourself too much off is to just go back a little and start again (slightly twisting a tote for a saw to bit in) or just go from another end. But of course practice is what makes is perfect.

[Jack Dover]

I would use a plow plane with a fence and an 1/8" cutter in it.


You will have to plough through the endgrain and this is where you realize you need a plan B. But you will probably realize it earlier while messing with the clamps and the blocks to avoid blowouts.