Walnut coloring due to aging

[Brian Runau]

Is it true walnut will lose it's brown coloring over time and go light tan like this if left unstained, but with a finish coat of some sealer of some kind? If yes, how long does it take for the wood to do this? Thanks Brian

493645

[roger wiegand]

Depends how much light it's exposed to. I have a walnut border in my floor and where it passes in front of a big floor to ceiling window it became almost indistinguishable from the maple floor in about four years. Similarly other walnut furniture we have has faded to a light brown over 5-7 years in the house. Finish does not seem to make a big difference, but I'd expect a spar varnish (eg with UV inhibitors) the color would last longer.
Things I want to remain dark I now dye with TransTint. They start off too dark, but then shift to the desired color over time.

[Prashun Patel]

It is true that it is a possibility. I have made many walnut pieces of all sorts. I've stained none of them. The higher exposure to UV light, the more it will fade/turn orange. I've built pieces with Cherry and walnut because I thought the contrast was nice - only to have them become indistinguishable a decade later. I also have several pieces that are years later as dark as the day I finished them, so YMMV.

If you dye your piece, you also have to beware that some dyes are UV sensitive, so you may experience a different change.

My advice is to use a UV-inhibiting finish and keep the table away from windows if the change really bothers you, knowing that this will at best only slow down the inevitable change. But, (unsolicited opinion alert): every time I see my "faded" walnut coffee table, it's a beautifully humbling reminder of the power of time, nature, wood, and light. So, I personally wouldn't do anything to artificially alter that...YMMV.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We have a family tradition of Walnut pig cutting boards going back 5 generations. They are all quite faded except for the 1920 patriarch. It is still a very lovely, very dark classic walnut color. I sure wish I knew why and how.

[Jim Becker]

Is it true walnut will lose it's brown coloring over time and go light tan like this if left unstained, but with a finish coat of some sealer of some kind? If yes, how long does it take for the wood to do this? Thanks Brian

493645

Typically, walnut gets lighter over time with UV exposure. Most of the air dried black walnut off our previous property became a nice golden brown over time.

I actually learned a lesson with this with a few projects I did years ago. I combined "dark" black walnut with cherry. The contrast was striking and beautiful...until the wood aged. The cherry got darker. The walnut got lighter. Both to the point that they were about the same "darkness", albeit with a slightly different hue.

[Andrew More]

Built a walnut mail box which sits on a covered porch facing south east. I noticed it had lightened up in about a month, it achieved it's current look in about 6 months.

[glenn bradley]

Walnut does lighten with age. I have a dresser that caught the morning sun on the lower portion for a decade and the color difference is obvious. I now combat this with a color coat that mimics oiled walnut. The pieces don't look colored when new but, retain that color better over time.

[John TenEyck]

As mentioned, if you want to keep the color constant, or change as little as possible, you need to use a finish with a dual UV package. The only one I personally know of is SW's KemAqua Plus, but there are others. Note that I didn't say a finish with a UV package, I said DUAL UV package. The first UV inhibitor is typically a tin based compound. It protects the finish itself. The second UV inhibitor protects the underlying wood. Those compounds are called HALS, for hindered amine something something.

Another way to minimize fading is to use a pigmented stain under your clearcoat. Many folks think that's a sin, but a lot of commercial furniture uses stain, and sometimes dye then stain, so the color will remain nearly constant over time. It all depends upon what your objectives are. I personally am not a fan of faded walnut so I typically dye the pieces I make with Transtint dark walnut dye and then clearcoat, and keep the pieces away from direct sunlight.

John

[Jeff Roltgen]

I agree with John. I too, in my early WW days, thought it a complete travesty to stain walnut. A friend displayed an accent chair in the atrium of his office building for a year or so until I got it back. It had turned pumpkin orange.
Now, I almost always stain walnut. Best part is, many choices will give you a pleasing, natural depth of color, as opposed to staining another species to look like walnut. Black is often reached for, especially with current trends for neutrality in color selection, but even plain old Minwax dark walnut evens things out and deepens the color without looking contrived.

Good info on the dual UV package.

[Brian Runau]

As mentioned, if you want to keep the color constant, or change as little as possible, you need to use a finish with a dual UV package. The only one I personally know of is SW's KemAqua Plus, but there are others. Note that I didn't say a finish with a UV package, I said DUAL UV package. The first UV inhibitor is typically a tin based compound. It protects the finish itself. The second UV inhibitor protects the underlying wood. Those compounds are called HALS, for hindered amine something something.

Another way to minimize fading is to use a pigmented stain under your clearcoat. Many folks think that's a sin, but a lot of commercial furniture uses stain, and sometimes dye then stain, so the color will remain nearly constant over time. It all depends upon what your objectives are. I personally am not a fan of faded walnut so I typically dye the pieces I make with Transtint dark walnut dye and then clearcoat, and keep the pieces away from direct sunlight.

John

John, I have some WD Lockwood powdered walnut water based stain. If I use this diluted to my preference, seal it with dewaxed shellac, then a light oil coat of stain and Arm R seal, would this hold up on the coloring? thanks. Brian

[Brian Runau]

I can stain these end tables to hold the color, but I built a bedroom set out of walnut, did not stain it. It gets no direct sunlight and honestly very little indirect light, so maybe it won't turn blonde 'til after I'm dead! Break my heart to see it go blonde.

[Mel Fulks]

Is walnut still steamed ? That distributes the color into the sap wood that is best just used in the fire. I like air dried walnut. Some will only
buy kiln dried because of modern specs but that makes ugly wood.

[Prashun Patel]

We are very precious about our walnut aren't we ;)

[Jim Becker]

Is walnut still steamed ? That distributes the color into the sap wood that is best just used in the fire. I like air dried walnut. Some will only
buy kiln dried because of modern specs but that makes ugly wood.
A lot of the walnut sold as commercial lumber is steamed for higher yields for sure, Mel. I don't prefer the "uniform, ruddy brown look", but it helps provide "more" wood that's "usable" from the same board. "In General". Personally, I prefer the beautiful variation of colors in air dried and/or non-steamed KD walnut...greens, purples, browns, golds, etc. It's just more interesting to me. But it might not be what someone making certain styles of furniture, etc, may want.

[roger wiegand]

Air dried walnut is one of those reasons to be a woodworker. All the colors of the rainbow glimmering across the surface, but ephemeral. In an hour it's gone. Only the woodworker in their shop gets to appreciate this transitory spectacle.

(talk about precious!)

[John TenEyck]

John, I have some WD Lockwood powdered walnut water based stain. If I use this diluted to my preference, seal it with dewaxed shellac, then a light oil coat of stain and Arm R seal, would this hold up on the coloring? thanks. Brian

I don't know how light fast WD Lockwoods dyes are, Brian, sorry. I do know that Transtint dyes are very light fast, which is one reason they are my preferred dyes. Take a look at Lockwood's website and see if they at least say something about how light fast their dyes are.

John

[Jeff Roltgen]

Brian,
In my experience, as well as self-educating through books and publications, the general consensus is that powdered dyes are not as lightfast as the liquids, such as trans-tint. Again, John is correct - asking the manufacturer is probably a good idea.

Just to clarify, the wood generally still shifts color over time, regardless the type of stain you use. Your job with walnut is to reduce that shift as much as possible, without going overboard. I like to think of dyes like tinted glass, whereas, using a pigment based stain deposits particles in addition to a dye frequently contained in the oil. You mentioned adding a pigmented, oil-based stain over the top, so I'd say you're on the right track, as you now have introduced opaque particles that damp the bleaching effects of hard sun exposure. While dyes have the advantage of superior clarity, the pigments provide a unique advantage in this scenario.

I'd avoid shellac wash-coats, if test results are acceptable, so the raw wood can grab more of those pigments and retain more deeply. In testing this way, you may find the dye + pigment is too much. At this point, try a 50% thinned shellac wash coat just prior to the oil stain. This is why I often use the aforementioned Minwax dark walnut. Lots of VanDyke brown pigment, lodging on the surface and pores, deepening the black walnut color and blocking sun rays like a dye never could alone, yet it really doesn't look contrived or too muddy from the pigments, IMHO.
Again, John's info regarding topcoats with a higher UV protection factor would be the final step towards preserving that original look.

So, in the end, that would be the maximum assurance of color stability; pigmented stain and extra UV protective topcoats, with or without a dye base colorant.
Do some sample boards until you're happy with the look - you still want to see some of that walnut character smiling through the finish!
Always a balancing act.

(Can you imagine, in just a few years, how many people who spent extravagant bucks on live-edge walnut slab furnishings with a simple, easy oil finish will be wondering what in the world happened to their treasured piece of nature's artwork?)

jeff

[Brian Runau]

As mentioned, if you want to keep the color constant, or change as little as possible, you need to use a finish with a dual UV package. The only one I personally know of is SW's KemAqua Plus, but there are others. Note that I didn't say a finish with a UV package, I said DUAL UV package. The first UV inhibitor is typically a tin based compound. It protects the finish itself. The second UV inhibitor protects the underlying wood. Those compounds are called HALS, for hindered amine something something.

Another way to minimize fading is to use a pigmented stain under your clearcoat. Many folks think that's a sin, but a lot of commercial furniture uses stain, and sometimes dye then stain, so the color will remain nearly constant over time. It all depends upon what your objectives are. I personally am not a fan of faded walnut so I typically dye the pieces I make with Transtint dark walnut dye and then clearcoat, and keep the pieces away from direct sunlight.

John

John:

Lockwood says they will fade. So I am off to Rockler to get some trans tint dark walnut. I just want a light coloring, any suggestions where to start in terms of how many drops per how much water? I can start light and add more drops to the mix as I go to get where I want to go, but not sure where to begin. Thanks Brian

[John TenEyck]

John:

Lockwood says they will fade. So I am off to Rockler to get some trans tint dark walnut. I just want a light coloring, any suggestions where to start in terms of how many drops per how much water? I can start light and add more drops to the mix as I go to get where I want to go, but not sure where to begin. Thanks Brian


8 drops of TT Dark Walnut in 30 ml H2O took this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AL9nZEVwZivnZFnNXzEeQfYmT_nUR-X8Y-L50h_GiLWi1zRVXDEA7mD9uu4d4g7oIUz9v9fST013aobxPxvv KXT09FSH2YRKhfkpgEPaIRXUqB8nmWt0U3_U4ZIqOExQCggwld tHmts2hIQUP7udDBUT_tvhAw=w1190-h893-no?authuser=1

To this, with Arm-R-Seal satin on top:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AL9nZEUmhhnYqQg9vdChhJ3Fc3lmKs60fcQ56A3tGl2WKDcBWY vGz7nmUirP0cuHcJfJrO6-66wCptr9E_d7brxOvVYRiq_xM-jQpHQaPZCFCRPnVWX1zt0GQb3HqATFuFygbxhf7cNvunTV0eCO aGevReRlrQ=w1470-h828-no?authuser=1


It's browner than the photo shows, but at least it gives you an idea. I'd start at around 5 drops in 30 mls.

John

[Brian Runau]

Thanks john. Very nice. Appreciate the help. Brian

[Stan Calow]

I like to use WATCO danish oil with the Dark Walnut tinting to help keep it darker longer, and more uniform between pieces. One step, or add another topcoat.

[Tim Andrews]

I like to use a light inlay, such as Maple, on many of my walnut projects. Of course it needs to be flushed up with a hand plane or sanding, so pre-tinting before the inlay is installed is not an option. While I have used TransTint dye on solid Walnut pieces, that seems impossible with an inlaid piece if the intent is to keep the Maple clean. I don’t think that masking tape would work. Has anyone found a solution to this?

[John TenEyck]

I like to use a light inlay, such as Maple, on many of my walnut projects. Of course it needs to be flushed up with a hand plane or sanding, so pre-tinting before the inlay is installed is not an option. While I have used TransTint dye on solid Walnut pieces, that seems impossible with an inlaid piece if the intent is to keep the Maple clean. I don’t think that masking tape would work. Has anyone found a solution to this?

Tim, do the inlay, as normal. Then carefully brush a coat or two of dewaxed shellac on the inlay. That will keep the Transtint dye from absorbing into your nice white maple. After you dye the piece, you can proceed with most any topcoat. Here's a set of walnut cabinets I made with maple and "oyster" (walnut branch cut on a diagonal into veneer) inlays.

John


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8DZEiHfiTPiyhf61t0hm1LWJPwpKNLQU8Yq4OEeGmS0h5 JYdy9LvPL9Nc3ODGQWRcSumWdwIqEM106oml76p6F3E4js4YIk kdXp-WRnQI0BHR5JgK88EBm3hyqHbgFHSO0dOb6OTcT9Qjvv13Y6KgW rOg=w670-h893-no?authuser=1

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8Ad_yAzcTndlQ-tLKey6ZUJZvgyG-ckwmwUwJF3kfAUB4JwLRnF8utwQ1bNHqOYSxRGrMYJxS2xig-SUrxL175Q1k6jsivD8XsnFYUbVQyiUjw7jfQBtuvfuUxJXwNWn iB-0oRON8AiSlZksPTw3OEegw=w800-h600-no?authuser=1

[Tim Andrews]

Thanks John, I’m going to try that on some test pieces. My biggest concern would be getting a perfect edge with the shellac. It seems if you miss a spot or get some on the walnut, the result would not look good.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks John, I’m going to try that on some test pieces. My biggest concern would be getting a perfect edge with the shellac. It seems if you miss a spot or get some on the walnut, the result would not look good.

There's no such thing as perfect. You just have to be close. If you miss some of the maple, that's bad, but if you get a little onto the walnut it won't show.

John

[Brian Runau]

8 drops of TT Dark Walnut in 30 ml H2O took this:



To this, with Arm-R-Seal satin on top:




It's browner than the photo shows, but at least it gives you an idea. I'd start at around 5 drops in 30 mls.

John

John:

Good morning. You were kind enough to offer your experience using trans tint on walnut. I did a sample and happy with your 8 drops per 30ml. My problem is I have walnut that came from different trees I am trying to use up in a project and I have no experience with how the stain will even out the coloring on what I have. One pic shows a more reddish coloring on the legs, and the bottom shelf material. Other pic shows the box coloring a little more brownish, and the flat material I was planing on using for the top. The top material is washed out faded dirty brown coloring. Not sure if the stain will even out the coloring between all this wood so when it is assembled into an end table it would not look to odd. Appreciate your opinion. Thanks. Brian

495314 495315

[Jim Becker]

To further complicate your life, Brian, all that walnut is also going to change color over time...generally lighter to a golden brown. So there is risk with "custom coloring" at the component level as that could possibly show a few years later. Personally, I'd use the same dye overall if you want to color it to mask any differences now, but I generally don't color walnut and cherry because they change so much with time and UV oxidation.

[Brian Runau]

To further complicate your life, Brian, all that walnut is also going to change color over time...generally lighter to a golden brown. So there is risk with "custom coloring" at the component level as that could possibly show a few years later. Personally, I'd use the same dye overall if you want to color it to mask any differences now, but I generally don't color walnut and cherry because they change so much with time and UV oxidation.

Jim, willing to stain it all. Seeing the variation in wood color, will it even it up enough to look passable? Thanks brian

[Jim Becker]

Honestly, I think it will even up over time. All the walnut I have ever used was air dried and cut on my previous property. There was wide variation in color initially. After a number of years, it pretty much all looks the same in finished form. For me, that was BLO, wax-free shellac and waterborne topcoat.

[glenn bradley]

Lots of good conversation here. Here's some Woodsmith Magazine pedestal frames I made back in 2009.

495358

Here is the same base from a year ago after setting where diffused sunlight could reach it daily.

495355

Granted we are on the left coast where the sun favors us 9 months out of the year but, the effect is pretty obvious.

[Brian Runau]

Lots of good conversation here. Here's some Woodsmith Magazine pedestal frames I made back in 2009.

495358

Here is the same base from a year ago after setting where diffused sunlight could reach it daily.

495355

Granted we are on the left coast where the sun favors us 9 months out of the year but, the effect is pretty obvious.

Did you stain with trans tint? Brian

[glenn bradley]

Did you stain with trans tint? Brian

No this is shellac only. Sorry I should have been more complete in what I was trying to say. Oil finished (no colorant) and top coated walnut will lighten over time. I prefer no colorants but with woods that lighten this is not really an option if you want to achieve a certain look. My current method is to Transtint dye the oil blend I use to get a color that is close to freshly oiled walnut.

495359

The finish looks like this 7 years later (I literally just went and snapped this pic) even though the piece stands by glass french doors.

495364

Getting this long term solution took a bit of fooling around but I am pretty happy with the effect of keeping that "just oiled" look over the years.

I do a similar thing for cherry. People often want a more rich looking initial color but I know it will darken over time. I give it a bit of a tint to look like so.

495366


And it still looks pretty much like this 6 years later. The natural darkening of cherry will eventually take over. This is quite a bit darker than the salmon color of fresh cherry under a non-colored oil finish as seen on the left.

495369

The box on the right was made a year earlier. Both are just a clear, de-waxed shellac. Is this making sense?

[Brian Runau]

No this is shellac only. Sorry I should have been more complete in what I was trying to say. Oil finished (no colorant) and top coated walnut will lighten over time. I prefer no colorants but with woods that lighten this is not really an option if you want to achieve a certain look. My current method is to Transtint dye the oil blend I use to get a color that is close to freshly oiled walnut.

495359

The finish looks like this 7 years later (I literally just went and snapped this pic) even though the piece stands by glass french doors.

495364

Getting this long term solution took a bit of fooling around but I am pretty happy with the effect of keeping that "just oiled" look over the years.

I do a similar thing for cherry. People often want a more rich looking initial color but I know it will darken over time. I give it a bit of a tint to look like so.

495366


And it still looks pretty much like this 6 years later. The natural darkening of cherry will eventually take over. This is quite a bit darker than the salmon color of fresh cherry under a non-colored oil finish as seen on the left.

Thanks Glenn, nice work. Brian

[mike stenson]

Air dried walnut, usual shop furniture finish of blo and turpentine. Just about twenty years apart, always had good indirect natural light in Arizona.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop/Workbench/i-hmmSSB9/0/558a4f2b/M/DSC00319-M.jpg

https://photos.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Shop/Tool-chest/i-w48GdFZ/0/818dccef/M/IMG_6927-M.jpg


You can see that the color mellowed, but it's not looking like butternut. Mostly. There are a couple areas that look a lot more like sapwood now, kind of interesting to see.

[John TenEyck]

Wow, that looks more like mahogany now.

John

[John TenEyck]

My current method is to Transtint dye the oil blend I use to get a color that is close to freshly oiled walnut.

Glenn, how do you mix Transtint dye in your oil blend?

John

[glenn bradley]

My current method is to Transtint dye the oil blend I use to get a color that is close to freshly oiled walnut.

Glenn, how do you mix Transtint dye in your oil blend?

John

With all the warnings we read about stirring instead of shaking finishes this will sound terrible. I pad on my finishes for the most part. I use short, wide mouth Mason jars to decant finish during a session. If I will use a lot of finish I mix it (I use an oil varnish blend) in a larger container and then pour it into the wide mouth jars as I go. During the initial mix and occasionally through the process I put the lid on and shake it. I have leftover finishes that have set for many months after a project and the color remains homogeneous. I still shake them prior to use because that's just how I am :D.

[Jim Becker]

I'm under the impression that Transtint is only for water or alcohol soluble solutions, not for oil. (I admit to adding it to epoxy, however)

[Arnold Maguire]

You replied to a thread last January regarding using Watco Dark Walnut Danish oil on Walnut. You mentioned tinting. Are you indicating you use tinted dye first, then the Watco? Or just Watco? Any color shifting since then ? Thanks!

[Stan Calow]

Arnold, I tried to reply to your message via the PM, but in case that failed, I meant the Watco that comes tinted: I can find Watco at my hardware store in: Dark Walnut, Light Walnut, Golden Oak, Cherry, Natural and maybe a couple other colors. I am not usually trying to match colors just even out the wood tones, so I use Dark or Light - whichever can I have is open.


You replied to a thread last January regarding using Watco Dark Walnut Danish oil on Walnut. You mentioned tinting. Are you indicating you use tinted dye first, then the Watco? Or just Watco? Any color shifting since then ? Thanks!