Sharpening Japanese Chisels in 2023

[Joel Gelman]

I am newly motivated to sharpen my hand tools, something I neglected. Many years ago, I purchased Japanese chisels from Japan Woodworker. Not Tasai etc. I just purchased a sharpening book last week, and today attended a sharpening class at Woodcraft. I brought one of my chisels in. The method was to use a Shapton 500 vs 1000 waterstone, flattened with a Shapton lapping plate on the back. That did not work out so well as my tool back was so far from flat. Therefore, a diamond stone was suggested, then back to the 500 then 1,000 waterstones. As a slurry would build up, I was told to spray it off. After an incredible amount of time, it seemed to be evenly flat. Then on to 8,000 as the instructor said no need for anything in between, different than what my gook suggested and now I sand wood. It became fairly shiny but I would not call it a mirror. Then on to the bevel with. It suggested no jig to use to maintain the proper angle. A microbevel was suggested as a good option but not for sure needed.

After class, I was looking up some videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdCW3_9c_Jg&t=603s

In this one, a metal plate called a Kanaban is used, and the waterstones are rubbed on the flat metal plate to transfer some of the material from the waterstone. Then the back of the chisel is rubbed on the Kanaban because you use the slurry to sharpen.'

Then in this video, it is suggested that you buy surface compound to apply the abrasive material to the Kanaban.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVmVaNHbSrQ


No idea what method is best. There seems to be a lack of clarity on how to get a nice kanna ban AKA kanaban. Maybe this:

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/sharpening/files-and-hones/69438-veritas-steel-honing-plate?item=05M4001

I purchased a Lap-Sharp a long time ago. Not a lot of info on it's use, and the company Wood Artistry is not all that responsive.

https://www.woodmagazine.com/tool-reviews/sanders/the-power-of-sharp

Not sure if this is better for my Japanese chisels. Sure would be nice to get that dialed in as my lap-sharp has not yet been used, if I can get an equally great finish and save time with the lap sharp, great. Or maybe the lap sharp for the major work and the waterstones for final finish. Not sure.

Any thoughts? I titled it for 2023 thinking maybe with newer products, things have changed since prior threads on this subject form years ago. Thanks.

[Jim Koepke]

One of the problems with asking about methods of sharpening is ten people may give you thirty opinions.

When it comes to Japanese chisels my tendency would be to look to Japanese methods. Traditionally Japanese woodworkers have used water stones. That may be a good place to start.

Another free source I would look to is Derek Cohen > http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/index.html

My best advice is to find a method that works and stay with it. Sometimes the best way is to find your own way instead of trying to follow the path of another. If it works for you, then that may be the best way.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

Start using your chisels and whatever sharpening method you have now. Don’t read any sharpening threads. Don’t try a different sharpening method for at least six months.

[chuck van dyck]

You can get a kanaban from Lee Valley. I like the method of adding slurry to the plate with a water stone, but it can take a while. When it comes to flattening, just get it done whether its diamonds, sandpaper, carborundum, etc.
The combo of hard and soft steel acts as a microbevel so no reason to add one. The soft steel is easily ground away on a water stone.
I use 800 and 6000 grit kings. I step up to a 8k shapton glass if needed but usually I am happy at 6k.
Don’t worry about not having a perfect mirror on the back. As you rehone and polish the burr off the back it will get better and better.
One thing to look out for are the super sharp edges of the lands. They will slice you up so maybe consider hitting quickly with a file or sandpaper.
I really like the videos by the Aussies, but like stated above, try not to have too many influences. Just find someone you trust and follow their instructions.

Edit: just noticed lee valley is sold out of the steel plates. I haven’t looked, but you may be able to get precision ground steel from McMaster-Carr.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Joel

First of all, the smoother the surfaces, the sharper the edge. 8000 grit should get you there, but somehow it is not.

Secondly, with Japanese bench chisels the traditional bevel angle is 30 degrees. How are you doing this? The traditional method is to free hand a flat bevel, and not use a honing guide. The danger with a honing guide is, if you are not an experienced sharpener, you can create a much higher bevel angle. If so, that will create a dull edge.

Thirdly, the most important technique in sharpening is the creation of a wire edge when you hone the bevel face. If you cannot feel a wire, then you have not honed across the full length of the bevel to the edge of the blade. No wire = dull edge.

Each stone needs to create a wire. Also, each stone must remove the scratches of the last stone. Scratches = serrated edge = a weak edge that dulls quickly.

Now stay away from the 500 stone. It is a grinding stone, not a sharpening stone. It will create deep scratches and the 1000 will struggle to remove them. The 8000 will not remove the scratches from the 1000, especially if there are still scratches from the 500.

I would work with the 1000 until there is an even scratch pattern with a wire to the back of the blade. Then I would get a 4000 grit stone and use it before the 8000. Again, even scratch pattern and a wire. The back of the chisel must only be smoothed on the 8000 grit at the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jon Snider]

Derek, I have it somewhere in my notes but can’t find it now. I seem to recall that you don’t hollow ground your Japanese chisels? (Using your ultimate CBN system for solely Sheffield type steels?)

Jon

[William Fretwell]

I think Derek means the danger ‘without’ a honing guide.

I’ve used a lot of methods, the method I’ve ended up with is exactly the same as Derek’s. My final stone is a 10,000 now just for plane blades.
I use a high quality stereoscope to view my edges. 15 to 90 times power. Seeing what you are doing in immense detail is wonderful. Up close there are no mirror surfaces, just smaller scratches. The final edge viewed from both sides can be inspirational. A superb edge actually feels less ‘sharp’.

Up to 6000 grit for chisels is just fine, a 10,000 grit edge will last only a few mallet strokes longer. Plane blades do benefit from the extra effort to ‘polish’ the wood. In use, the plane edge acquires micro chips, I do mean microns. It continues to work very well for a long time, the micro chips still cut. I just strop the blade on leather and stropping compound to remove any small burr around the edge of the micro chips, then back to work.

Seems the people running your class would benefit from a class. My classic scientific training makes me investigate and verify.

[Warren Mickley]

In use, the plane edge acquires micro chips, I do mean microns. It continues to work very well for a long time, the micro chips still cut. I just strop the blade on leather and stropping compound to remove any small burr around the edge of the micro chips, then back to work.

Seems the people running your class would benefit from a class. My classic scientific training makes me investigate and verify.

If you are getting "micro chips" something is very wrong. Poor steel or poor sharpening media or something. Stuff like that makes the edge harder to sharpen.

I watched the videos in your post, Joel. They all seem to have new equipment. I don't think any have much experience or are even woodworkers.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I have it somewhere in my notes but can’t find it now. I seem to recall that you don’t hollow ground your Japanese chisels? (Using your ultimate CBN system for solely Sheffield type steels?)

Jon

Jon, all my Japanese chisels have flat bevels and are honed free hand.

Some may hollow grind theirs. It is fine to do so, and does not weaken the edge, but it is not traditional and loses its attractiveness.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I think Derek means the danger ‘without’ a honing guide....

What I was saying is that someone using a honing guide, creating a secondary bevel, may unwittingly hone a higher secondary bevel than intended. If you go above 35 degrees, the blade will feel duller.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

Unfortunately Warren the edge doesn’t last forever! The micro chips are incredibly small, nothing wrong with the steel. It’s just the normal wear of the edge.

They don’t make the edge harder to sharpen, it is simple and quick to hone the edge back to remove them. You can’t see them with the naked eye or even a loupe. It’s not as fanatical as it sounds! Just what is going on at the edge. You don’t need optical equipment to achieve this kind of edge, it just helps you understand the process.

What it does show you is what is NOT there. No deep scratches, no micro curled edge to break off, no chips, just a lovely union of two planes.

[Mike Henderson]

Flattening the back and polishing it is just labor. No shortcut that I know of. Others have suggested techniques.

For the bevel side, I use a WorkSharp and put a 25 degree primary bevel on the chisels. Then I go to my water stones and put a higher secondary bevel. It's not traditional but it's a lot faster than doing all the work on water stones.

Mike

[Reed Gray]

Well, there are a bunch of videos up about sharpening. When you first get a new chisel or plane iron, you will most likely have to spend some extra time 'fixing' it to how you want it. This includes flattening the back. I use all diamond lapping plates, which are several grades above the diamond 'sharpening' stones, mostly they are dead flat. You can even use a table saw top or jointer bed as a flat surface and start with coarse abrasive grits. Hopefully you don't need 36 grit. Some do sharpen to 1000 and then go straight to 16000, and Shapton actually makes a 30000 grit stone. I prefer to go in steps, but I am fairly new to flat work tools, having spent most of the last 30 years at the lathe. When sanding bowls on the lathe, you do not skip grits, ever, because it leaves scratches that you can see. I do like guides for learning until you get the muscle memory, then it doesn't take much effort to get the 'feel' of how things are done. I have the Veritas jig, and it does work well. A simpler method is one of several clones, and Woodcraft has one. You need a board with several depth stops, wood generally, for different angles. Pretty simple to make, and more convenient than the little gage that you slip on the Veritas set up. If you look up Face Edge Woodworking on You Tube, he uses the old India oil stones, the finest is about 400 grit. He does strop the burr off. I consider that to be one of the most essential steps. He uses a cheap 'polishing' paste from the big box store on wood, and that actually works well. You can get diamond polishing pastes up to 16000 grit. I will generally use 2 or 3 different polishing compounds. It is a journey....

robo hippy

[Tony Wilkins]

There are much better sharpereners out there than I but did want to mention one thing…

Japanese tools are different than all the other tools out there. Not only the construction but the philosophy. When dredging through the mo7ntains if opionions and methods, seek out ones for Japanese blades. Derek knows his stuff, not only generally but for tools from Japan as well.

[Jim Koepke]

Joel, this may also be of interest to you > https://covingtonandsons.com/2019/07/09/sharpening-japanese-woodworking-tools-part-1/

There is are links to part 2 through 30 at the end of part 1.

jtk

[Cameron Wood]

These days, with nice flat diamond plates available, it's easy to get the stones very flat, and with them, get the chisel backs nice and flat,

so the kanaban is not as needed. If I were starting out, I would skip the kanaban.

IME, when honing, there is a tendency for the softer chisel body to wear faster than the cutting edge, so the bevel angle can get shallower over time. A honing guide is helpful
to correct this, to change bevel angle for other reasons and also for narrow chisels. However, common honing guides don't always hold Japanese chisels well.

I do not put a secondary bevel on Japanese tools, except plane chipbreakers.

[Mike Henderson]

Japanese tools are different than all the other tools out there. Not only the construction but the philosophy.

What is this philosophy of which you speak? Chisels are just tools. I use both western chisels and Japanese chisels and I never even felt a hint of philosophy.

Mike

[And BTW, there were laminated western chisels years ago, when good steel was very expensive.]

[Jim Koepke]

What is this philosophy of which you speak?

Not being an expert in philosophy, neither Japanese nor Western, my only intent is to relay what was told to me. The Japanese and other eastern cultures have a strong influence from Buddhism. Some of the teachings postulate even the tiniest mote of dust has a spirit.

Hence a tree and any piece of wood from a tree has its own spirit. Here is where the story differs depending on who is telling the story.

The Japanese woodworker works with a tool, pulling toward them self to bring any escaping sprit of the wood into them self. In this way it is believed the woodworker becomes one with the wood being worked.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

It's obvious that a woodworker does not have to subscribe to that philosophy (actually, mysticism, not philosophy) - or even know about it - in order to use the tools. They're just tools.

I don't know why anyone would need to bring mysticism into woodworking.

Mike

[George Nakashima and his "The Soul of a Tree" is something I could never understand. It's just wood. His mysticism was probably a sales tool for gullible clients.]

[Tony Wilkins]

It's obvious that a woodworker does not have to subscribe to that philosophy (actually, mysticism, not philosophy) - or even know about it - in order to use the tools. They're just tools.

I don't know why anyone would need to bring mysticism into woodworking.

Mike

Yea, but it does effect how they designed the tool and envisioned it’s use (including sharpening).

[Kevin Jenness]

Is there any practical reason, putting aside tradition, aesthetics or philosophy, to sharpen Japanese edge tools differently from western ones?

[Richard Coers]

In my shop, I'm very happy to stop at 3,000 with my Japanese chisels. Being able to shave with them is plenty good for working wood.

[chuck van dyck]

I don't know why anyone would need to bring mysticism into woodworking.

Mike

I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t.

[William Fretwell]

Yes, somewhat. The concave backs of Japanese chisels needs extra attention to ensure the area immediately behind the edge is flat. As the area you are flattening is quite small this is not as onerous as it sounds but with multiple hollow backs it can be some work.

The two layers of steel, hard and soft make sharpening the bevel easier, hollow grinding of Western chisel bevels is to make sharpening the bevel easier. You don’t hollow grind Japanese chisels.

As Japanese chisel hard steel edges are shallow and easy to sharpen I don’t need a micro bevel. With Western chisels the sharpening can take a while, the temptation to throw on a microbevel and get back to work can be very strong.

Lots of people on here have more experience than I do with east and west chisels but overall I find them easier to sharpen. They are generally a bit shorter and easier to control. Perhaps I’m philosophically lazy!

[Cameron Wood]

Is there any practical reason, putting aside tradition, aesthetics or philosophy, to sharpen Japanese edge tools differently from western ones?

Maybe easier to burn a cutting edge on a grinder, just not the best fit to oil stones, and if you hollow grind, the thin cutting edge could be more easily damaged.

[Jim Koepke]

Is there any practical reason, putting aside tradition, aesthetics or philosophy, to sharpen Japanese edge tools differently from western ones?

My chisels are all sharpened with a single flat bevel. So no, there is no practical reason for a Japanese chisel to be sharpened differently if there were any in my shop.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

My chisels are all sharpened with a single flat bevel. So no, there is no practical reason for a Japanese chisel to be sharpened differently if there were any in my shop.

jtk


Jim's comments are particularly appropriate when you understand that one reason for the softer lamination (iron or low carbon steel) is to make sharpening of the bevel face easier. In many ways, one could equate the laminated support as a hollow grind. It abrades easily, unlike the hard steel of the cutting edge. The other reason for the backing is to act as a shock absorber - protection for the brittle, hard steel of the cutting edge.

Working with Japanese tools in general, and chisels in this instance, is not for the impulsive and hasty person. The way one uses a oire nomi (bench chisel) is with a gennou (steel hammer). Tapping the hooped chisel allows for precision. Japanese joinery requires this. Sharpening Japanese blades is as much ritual as it is practical. Japanese waterstones have centuries of history. There is a sacredness to building with old timber (e.g. from temples), and the preparation of tools share this.

I may hollow grind my Western blades, but not my Japanese chisels ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L5qn1Xnm/KK7.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Is there any practical reason, putting aside tradition, aesthetics or philosophy, to sharpen Japanese edge tools differently from western ones?

Yes.

Traditional Japanese chisels were designed to sharpened with water stones. Traditional western chisels were designed to be sharpened with rub and rag stones (water stones) but then polished with oil stones. Best results are obtained when using the media they were designed for.

[William Fretwell]

My ‘sacred’ wood is a chestnut beam from an old barn. I saw the farmer taking it down and bought a beam on the spot, he delivered it 5 miles balanced on the bucket of his tractor! Two days earlier the local yacht club had asked me to make a fireplace mantle at the club house. Mantles and surrounds in old English pubs are commonly made of old ship Timbers with the mortices still evident.
Sadly the next day the club found a mantle at the recycle store which they installed very badly with Robertson screws at 45 degrees in the bricks still showing. French cleat was not in their vocabulary.
Still have the beam!

[Keegan Shields]

I've always been fascinated by how a practical choice can become a tradition and take on a life of its own over time.

For instance, Japanese plane iron and chisels are laminated because Japan has extremely limited mineral reserves and steel was extremely expensive to import. That's why they adopted the use of wooden planes as well.

Not for some advantage in sharpening or other secondary benefit. Carpentry was not the most important trade in feudal Japan, so carpenters made do.


And the steel that was imported had many impurities - thus the folded steel in samurai swords, which was an effort by the smith to create a uniform composition in their steel blank. It certainly wasn't for mystical reasons linked to the soul of the sword.

All those complicated, precision Japanese joints? According to "The Art of Japanese Joinery", as the island was deforested and quality timber became harder to find, more intricate joints were needed to piece together the smaller sections of acceptable wood (my summary).


Necessity is the mother of invention - everything else is just marketing :)

[Ron Brese]

The theory behind sharpening any blade doesn't change with where the tool is made. The same actions that create a sharp edge will do so no matter where the tools is made. I think when people are teaching sharpening they should refer to the stones etc. as sharpening medium. It could be all manner of stones abrasive films, whatever. This way they could concentrate on teaching the principles of what makes things sharp in lieu of their specific way of doing it. This would serve people interested in refining their sharpening routine to a dependable system that yields sharp edges consistently.

Teaching methods that require the removal of less steel to yield a sharp edge certainly have their place and those options should be discussed. In the end with basic principles in place an individual can take that knowledge and make an informed decision as to how they wish to approach sharpening.

Ron

[Rafael Herrera]

My understanding of Japanese chisels is that they are hardened higher than western chisels, so require attention in the method used to sharpen. Their maintenance is more complex since one has to hammer flat the concave area behind the edge to restore the flat side of the chisel as it wears out.

As an aside, as with their writing system, their wood joinery technology was imported from China. They certainly evolved them, but it's worth pointing out that, for example, the construction techniques of all those amazing temples were not created in Japan.

[Warren Mickley]

The theory behind sharpening any blade doesn't change with where the tool is made.



Of course it does not matter where the chisel is made. What matters is how the chisel is made.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

The other reason for the backing is to act as a shock absorber - protection for the brittle, hard steel of the cutting edge.

There is a longstanding myth that this statement applies to a Japanese chisel in use; I suspect that this myth is simply a misinterpretation of the applicability of the statement (more below). It's not necessarily a myth of any consequence for use of the chisel, but it is quite simply technically inaccurate for the physics of a chisel in use. During a previous discussion you and I participated in on another forum, I offered to provide equations to back up the assertion that the jigane (soft backing) cannot act as a shock absorber in use: the offer remains open.

I have thought about the statement further since that discussion, prompted by comments David Weaver made during that same discussion. My conclusion is that this statement about the softer backing being a shock absorber appears to be a valid statement during the quench, at least for water-hardening steels such as Japanese white steel (Hitachi shirogami). So, it specifically applies during the process of making the chisel and not during its subsequent use.

I am not an expert in metal quenching, but here's my explanation.

Why is the "shock absorber" statement valid during the quench? Let's consider a piece of brittle rather than ductile steel (such as white steel upon quenching). As the steel cools, it changes in density. During the quench, the outside cools and "locks" in place with the center still much hotter. As the steel continues to cool, the steel in the center continues to change in density: the "locked in" outer portion of the steel and the still-cooling inner portion "fight" each other, and pressure (residual stress) increases until the steel reaches a uniform temperature. This build-up of pressure (residual stress) is dependent on a number of factors including the cooling rate and thickness of the steel: greater thickness means greater forces trying to tear the steel apart because the outside tends to cool at similar rates for thin versus thick steel, while the center stays hotter through a larger section for thick steel.

A thick cross-section of white steel may therefore very well crack or break apart during a quench: greater internal stresses increase the likelihood of cracking, particularly for brittle steel (which describes white steel quite well immediately following a quench). A thin cross-section (of hard steel) will, on the other hand, significantly mitigate this: the total pressure will be significantly less. If the material is instead ductile, once the pressure rises high enough the material will simply deform and absorb the energy--the process of deformation reduces the stresses.

Further, the laminated construction ensures that the "locked in" portion of the hard steel will only be on one face and two sides instead of fully surrounding the central portion, and the hard steel portion of the chisel will tend to warp as a primary result. The soft backing, made from a steel that remains ductile during this process, simply deforms to accommodate this warping (and its own) and relieve much of this internal stress with no significant consequences to the strength of the soft backing. So, the soft backing absorbs much of the rapid build-up of internal stress (the "shock") during the quench.

Hence, during the quench, the soft backing does act as a shock absorber and the statement is valid in the appropriate context.

Slower-quenching steels exhibit less stress (pressure) as a result of this effect because the temperature isn't quite so different from the outside to the center when the outside gets locked in--slower cooling of the outside surface leads to smaller temperature differences through the thickness. So, oil-quenching steels warp less from this effect and are less likely to crack, and air-quenching steels even less so.

Another function of the softer backing is that it adds significant stiffness compared to a hypothetical chisel composed solely of a thin piece of white steel.

[Jim Koepke]

Sharpening Japanese blades is as much ritual as it is practical.

Something taught as a ritual practice may be more memorable than teaching, "this is how it is done so do it this way."


Another function of the softer backing is that it adds significant stiffness compared to a hypothetical chisel composed solely of a thin piece of white steel.

Would it not also help by absorbing any shock waves emanating through the "hypothetical chisel" of thin steel?

jtk

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Would it not also help by absorbing any shock waves emanating through the "hypothetical chisel" of thin steel?

jtk

No, actually.

The greatest stress (pressure) by far is at the very thin steel right at/near the cutting edge. The stress can be mitigated somewhat by increasing the impact time, which would be accomplished better with a thin blade (less stiffness with regards to lengthwise compression). This effect, however, will be small compared to the impact-duration-increase effect of the handle, which has significantly lower stiffness in lengthwise compression.

Any shock wave from the wood one is chopping would necessarily start at and near the cutting edge and expand in spatial dimension as it passes from there into the body of the chisel, thereby decreasing in amplitude. If the amplitude of the wave is not large enough to hurt the cutting edge, how would it hurt anything in any portion of the body where it's necessarily much lower amplitude? From the other direction, any shock wave coming from the striking implement would start at the handle and increase in amplitude as it passes down the wedge of the bevel into the extreme cutting edge--again, it's at its highest amplitude at the cutting edge.

With regards to absorption of shock waves or any other form of mechanical energy, there's a negligible difference in thermoelastic energy dissipation between the hard steel and soft backer during any cutting operation, whether chopping or paring. The handle dissipates much more energy than either, as does the wood one is chopping. Ideally, the wood one is chopping will be the dominant source of energy dissipation.

An exception wherein the soft backer would still act as a shock absorber after the quenching process would be if you were to cause some kind of permanent deformation of the chisel, such as in the process known as ura-dashi wherein the chisel (or, more typically, plane blade) is bent in the direction of the ura (the hollow on the back) through judicious use of a hammer. In this case, the soft backer is definitely acting as a shock absorber--you can tell that it is because the hammer leaves dents and because the blade stays bent--but this isn't something done in the normal course of using a chisel and to my limited knowledge not something typically done with chisels at all but rather with plane blades. The extra energy dissipation, here, is all about the ductility and has nothing to do with the elastic properties--which will be similar for the hard steel and the soft backer.

In chopping, the least stiff part of any Japanese chisel I've ever seen is always the handle. Wood exhibits significantly greater thermoelastic dissipation than steel. It also flexes more when striking the chisel with, for example, a mallet, and therefore slows the impact more than any characteristics of the steel or soft iron backer. The handle, therefore, does more to absorb shock and slow impacts than any of the steel or the soft backer.

As evidence, I submit the following: using something metallic, lightly strike the metal of a Japanese chisel versus a Western chisel, and listen to how long the chisel "rings." A shorter "ring-down time" indicates greater dissipation of waves (of any sort). I just tried it with a couple of chisels in my workshop: a high quality Japanese oiirenomi purchased from Stan Covington versus an early-1900s Buck Bros chisel. If anything, my Japanese oiirenomi might ring slightly longer than my early-1900s Buck Brothers chisel, indicating less shockwave absorption rather than more.

[Cameron Wood]

I disagree with the "steel was expensive" theory.

With the wane of samurai, blacksmiths moved to making woodworking tools. Techniques for making samurai swords were certainly not based on saving some ryō.

As Derek Cohen points out above, thick sections of hard steel would be hard to sharpen (as well as other factors). Trying to get an edge on those old hard-as-hell Buck knives comes to mind.


"Carpentry was not the most important trade in feudal Japan, so carpenters made do."

Elaborate temples were being constructed for many hundreds of years leading to the feudal period, not suggestive of some unimportant carpenters making do with substandard tools.

[Joel Gelman]

Many thanks for the replies. In giving everything more thought, I guess if using waterstones, I would not seek to obtain a kana ban, and instead keep the waterstones flat with a Shapton lapping plate. My next step is to experiment with my lap-sharp on some chisels and planes. I found out that the company is out of business because the machines were too expensive to build to be profitable. When I purchased this system before 2017, I obtained a very large assortment of abrasives, more than I will use in a lifetime. I never really devoted the time to learning this system but will try. I purchased it back in the day to use at some point, and the time has come. I do not have super expensive chisels and planes at this time, and so I do not think I will ruin anything, especially if I am careful.

As for expensive chisels, that can be a separate thread.

[Rafael Herrera]

I disagree with the "steel was expensive" theory.

With the wane of samurai, blacksmiths moved to making woodworking tools. Techniques for making samurai swords were certainly not based on saving some ryō.

As Derek Cohen points out above, thick sections of hard steel would be hard to sharpen (as well as other factors). Trying to get an edge on those old hard-as-hell Buck knives comes to mind.

"Carpentry was not the most important trade in feudal Japan, so carpenters made do."

Elaborate temples were being constructed for many hundreds of years leading to the feudal period, not suggestive of some unimportant carpenters making do with substandard tools.

Iron metallurgy in Japan developed in the 6th century to the point of being able to produce steel, but in very small quantities. They used Iron sand, an ore with a very small mount of iron in it. The process was very resource intensive and their yields small. They figured methods of maximizing the use of their steel, producing their katanas, and whatever else needed an edge.

If one thinks about it for a moment, steel welded to wrought iron is a brilliant solution, not because it was easy to sharpen, but because they couldn't fabricate the whole thing out of steel, which would have been wasteful, even absurd to consider.

There are today professional katana sharpeners that spend a very very long time sharpening those swords, it's not unreasonable to assume the same happened in the past. Ease of sharpenning was not the reason for laminating steel to wrought iron.

Over the centuries they may have had access to higher quality ore, but steel was not something in abundance there, nor anywhere else in the world until the after the industrial revolution was well under way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Japanese_iron-working_techniques

This video shows traditional japanese blacksmiths using iron sand to produce steel.


https://youtu.be/tbbky_RwFyc

[Cameron Wood]

Iron metallurgy in Japan developed in the 6th century to the point of being able to produce steel, but in very small quantities. They used Iron sand, an ore with a very small mount of iron in it. The process was very resource intensive and their yields small. They figured methods of maximizing the use of their steel, producing their katanas, and whatever else needed an edge.

If one thinks about it for a moment, steel welded to wrought iron is a brilliant solution, not because it was easy to sharpen, but because they couldn't fabricate the whole thing out of steel, which would have been wasteful, even absurd to consider.

There are today professional katana sharpeners that spend a very very long time sharpening those swords, it's not unreasonable to assume the same happened in the past. Ease of sharpenning was not the reason for laminating steel to wrought iron.

Over the centuries they may have had access to higher quality ore, but steel was not something in abundance there, nor anywhere else in the world until the after the industrial revolution was well under way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Japanese_iron-working_techniques

This video shows traditional japanese blacksmiths using iron sand to produce steel.


https://youtu.be/tbbky_RwFyc



Very interesting video. But in this case, the whole knife is made from the rare and laboriously produced steel, so doesn't help the point above...

[Rafael Herrera]

Very interesting video. But in this case, the whole knife is made from the rare and laboriously produced steel, so doesn't help the point above...

Darn! How about: the video illustrates traditional steel production, what they do with it is another story?

[Keegan Shields]

Techniques for making samurai swords were certainly not based on saving some ryō.

Let me try to be more clear about the two points.

1. Carpentry was a less important vocation than making war in feudal Japan, therefore making something like a katana with the available steel/iron would have taken precedence over a metal smoothing plane or timber framing chisel. Given the scarcity of iron ore, its no wonder Japanese carpenters used wooden plane bodies and developed chisels with laminated blades.

2. The fact that katanas are traditionally made with many layers of folded steel is the practical solution to the problem of impurities in the steel that was used causing a weak spot. This is my attempt at showing another example outside of woodworking where a bug is turned into a feature over time. All that extra work to fix a problem turns into some mythical benefit to admire. The point has nothing to do with material savings.

Hopefully that helps clear up what I was trying to convey.

[Rafael Herrera]

its no wonder Japanese carpenters used wooden plane bodies

I'm not sure if you're implying that if there had been more iron resources, they would have used metal bodied planes; there were no metal bodied planes before the 19th century.

Also, certainly carpentry tools were being manufactured throughout Japanese history, they have a centuries old woodworking tradition.

The katanas were mentioned as an example of the manufacture of a cutting instrument forge welding irons with different carbon content. The same technology applies to more mundane devices like chisels, plane irons, etc.

[Tom M King]

I always wondered exactly how hard the "hard" steel was anyway, since it's so easy to tap the back out when the edge intrudes on the hollow.

[Cameron Wood]

Let me try to be more clear about the two points.

1. Carpentry was a less important vocation than making war in feudal Japan, therefore making something like a katana with the available steel/iron would have taken precedence over a metal smoothing plane or timber framing chisel. Given the scarcity of iron ore, its no wonder Japanese carpenters used wooden plane bodies and developed chisels with laminated blades.

2. The fact that katanas are traditionally made with many layers of folded steel is the practical solution to the problem of impurities in the steel that was used causing a weak spot. This is my attempt at showing another example outside of woodworking where a bug is turned into a feature over time. All that extra work to fix a problem turns into some mythical benefit to admire. The point has nothing to do with material savings.

Hopefully that helps clear up what I was trying to convey.


Yes, good points.

Jay

[Keegan Shields]

I'm not sure if you're implying that if there had been more iron resources, they would have used metal bodied planes; there were no metal bodied planes before the 19th century.

Also, certainly carpentry tools were being manufactured throughout Japanese history, they have a centuries old woodworking tradition.

The katanas were mentioned as an example of the manufacture of a cutting instrument forge welding irons with different carbon content. The same technology applies to more mundane devices like chisels, plane irons, etc.

Fair point. Metal bodied planes were probably a bad example to use as they are a pretty recent innovation in the west.

I always thought katanas were made from a single steel blank. The spine (less hard) and edge (harder) are hardened to different levels allowing it to take a keen, durable edge while also allowing the spine to flex. A cool Japanese innovation.

Until recently, I didn’t realize that it was this differential heat treatment that gave the katana its signature curve.

Do I have something wrong here?

[Tony Wilkins]

I guess in the grand scheme of things Ancient Rome was relatively recent ;)

[Rafael Herrera]

Just to make sure, I checked one of those katana making videos on YouTube.

A blank of high carbon steel (kawagane) is folded around a blank of low carbon steel (shingane). Then that is hammered and stretched to the shape of the sword. The hardening process affects the whole blade. Only the outer shell hardens, the shingane does not harden.

Of course, there's a lot more to this art, here's the video I watched. The lamination is shown around minute 22.

https://youtu.be/gxwWf-MfZVk

[Chuck Hill]

William, do you have a link to the stereoscope that you use?

[Keegan Shields]

Thanks Rafael! I learned something new and I'll check out the video.

[William Fretwell]

The Will Strubin Wetzlar dissecting microscope. It’s old. Universities sell off their old stuff very cheap, they have lots of new money to spend. You have to strip and lubricate but $2000 new, $66 disposal. Microscope $5000 new $102 disposal.
Once cleaned and lubed they work fine. The optics are still superb.
I would stay away from the really old stuff 50 years plus, things did get better. Helps to know about model years for microscopes. The stereoscopes really took off for printed circuit board assembly, lots out there, not all zoom.

[Chris Pyle]

Let me try to be more clear about the two points.

1. Carpentry was a less important vocation than making war in feudal Japan, therefore making something like a katana with the available steel/iron would have taken precedence over a metal smoothing plane or timber framing chisel. Given the scarcity of iron ore, its no wonder Japanese carpenters used wooden plane bodies and developed chisels with laminated blades.

2. The fact that katanas are traditionally made with many layers of folded steel is the practical solution to the problem of impurities in the steel that was used causing a weak spot. This is my attempt at showing another example outside of woodworking where a bug is turned into a feature over time. All that extra work to fix a problem turns into some mythical benefit to admire. The point has nothing to do with material savings.

Hopefully that helps clear up what I was trying to convey.

This sounds like an attempt to reduce something unnecessarily.

Would you mind answering some specific questions?

Do you believe metal body planes superior? Do you believe all steel plane blades are superior to their laminated counterparts?

I think the Japanese, as a culture, pursue singular things to the highest degree. They iterate throughout their lives on singular tasks and attempt to produce the highest quality work. This is repeated over generations in various domains. Their tools and methods are the result of this continued iteration over centuries and many of their tools and practices have been taken from other cultures (China, perhaps Korea?).

When steel became more readily available, why didn't they "improve" their product?

[Luke Dupont]

FWIW, I have a kanaban, but I recommend skipping it and just going to a diamond stone. A combination 400/1000 grit diamond plate is great. You'll use the 1000 grit side primarily, but you may occasionally need to do heavy grinding, in which case you'll need at least 400 grit.

Most Japanese woodworkers I know also tend not to use the kanaban so much and just use diamond plates as well.

Beware of cheap kanaban, by the way. Mine did NOT come flat and I spent considerable time getting it perfectly flat. Diamond stones are usually better, but buyer beware -- make sure you get a perfectly flat diamond stone.

Next up would be a water stone, maybe around 1000-2000 grit, and another around 4000-6000 grit to finish on. Maybe a finer waterstone or a Jnat after that for an ultra fine edge.

I'm a bit anachronistic and actually sharpen all of my Japanese tools with oilstones -- primarily a vintage washita and arkansas stones. They seem to work rather well with Japanese steel and I never have to worry about rust. They also cut better than cheap Japanese natural whetstones that I own, but I should state that I don't own any particularly good/expensive jnats. Maybe one day I will. My sharpening set up is not much different than what people were using 150 years ago in Europe and America.

As others have said, free hand a flat bevel. Another anachronistic point of mine, but I find that if you get the bevel perfectly flat, especially with Japanese tools because they're so thick, then as you're sharpening, you will find that two perfectly flat surfaces rubbing against eachother with a lubricant present will cause a vaccuum effect where they stick together quite solidly on occasion. You'll be pushing or pulling along and then the bevel will just "grab" to the stone and stop all of the sudden, causing you to ruin the angle and create a micro bevel. If this happens, it's back to the coarse stone... and it happens often enough if you have a perfectly flat bevel, that I actually began putting an almost imperceptible amount of curvature on the back of the bevel. Actually though, I've found you can keep 80-90% of the bevel completely flat and just subtly round off the very top of the bevel (the soft iron side) to break that hard corner, and this problem will occur way less.

Not many people seem to complain about this issue other than me, so maybe I'm just getting things "too flat" for my own good, but there's my 2 cents if you happen to encounter this phenomenon on a regular basis.

FYI, sharpening Japanese tools in 2023 isn't much different from sharpening them in 1723. I quite like my ancient natural stones, and many Japanese woodworkers I know do also. There's a few more conveniences available these days such as diamonds and synthetic, but it really doesn't change much tbh. The important thing is just to get the skill and experience, so start practicing and learn to free hand!

[Warren Mickley]

FYI, sharpening Japanese tools in 2023 isn't much different from sharpening them in 1723. I quite like my ancient natural stones, and many Japanese woodworkers I know do also. There's a few more conveniences available these days such as diamonds and synthetic, but it really doesn't change much tbh. The important thing is just to get the skill and experience, so start practicing and learn to free hand!

You have information on Japanese sharpening in 1723?

[Keegan Shields]

Do you believe metal body planes superior?

Superior is a subjective word. But yes, for my purposes I believe so. Wood moves when the humidity changes, ductile iron does not. I’ve never needed to use a tachi kanna to flatten or hollow the sole of my LN 4 1/2. I prefer the additional weight of a metal bodied plane and the integral chip breaker to limit tear out. As I understand it, the addition of a chip breaker on kannas appeared only after WW2, demonstrating that the traditional kanna could be improved upon. I also find the Stanley type mechanisms to control blade protrusion easier to use than tapping with a hammer.

Do you believe all steel plane blades are superior to their laminated counterparts?

No. But why bother with lamination if you don’t have to? Why add unnecessary complication if there is no performance benefit? Why fold a steel blank 1000 times if you don’t have to? I believe the answer is - when a process takes on a life of its own. When myth and tradition (which I cyclically see as marketing) become the brand and thus the selling point.

The role of marketing is to differentiate a product and make it special, raising its perceived value. There are wild product claims made all of the time, and the consumer is often left trying to figure out what matters and what is marketing. Some might remember the original Copperfit advertisements that made miraculous claims about the healing powers of copper. Spoiler alert - it doesn’t…

As an aside, I have great respect for the Japanese cultural traditions of precision. Japanese watch (Sako) and optics manufacturers (Light Optic Works) are great examples of this.

[Chris Pyle]

Do you believe metal body planes superior?

Superior is a subjective word. But yes, for my purposes I believe so. Wood moves when the humidity changes, ductile iron does not. I’ve never needed to use a tachi kanna to flatten or hollow the sole of my LN 4 1/2. I prefer the additional weight of a metal bodied plane and the integral chip breaker to limit tear out. As I understand it, the addition of a chip breaker on kannas appeared only after WW2, demonstrating that the traditional kanna could be improved upon. I also find the Stanley type mechanisms to control blade protrusion easier to use than tapping with a hammer.

Do you believe all steel plane blades are superior to their laminated counterparts?

No. But why bother with lamination if you don’t have to? Why add unnecessary complication if there is no performance benefit? Why fold a steel blank 1000 times if you don’t have to? I believe the answer is - when a process takes on a life of its own. When myth and tradition (which I cyclically see as marketing) become the brand and thus the selling point.

The role of marketing is to differentiate a product and make it special, raising its perceived value. There are wild product claims made all of the time, and the consumer is often left trying to figure out what matters and what is marketing. Some might remember the original Copperfit advertisements that made miraculous claims about the healing powers of copper. Spoiler alert - it doesn’t…

As an aside, I have great respect for the Japanese cultural traditions of precision. Japanese watch (Sako) and optics manufacturers (Light Optic Works) are great examples of this.

Superior is definitely subjective but your answers help explain why you were so reductive about Japanese tools and practices.

Superior to you doesn't mean superior performance, necessarily. It means ease of use and maintenance or those carry heavy weight in your final grading.

I wonder why these really high end infill planes aren't brought to the Kezuroukai competitions to win the award and show everyone they've been using unnecessarily finicky tools that were developed before resources were plentiful?

You believe Japanese tools haven't "evolved" because of myth and tradition?

[Derek Cohen]

Keegan, if you believe that the performance of laminated blades of Japanese chisels is something made up by the publicity department, then you need to read the tests I have done:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselBladeTesting-5Steels.html

"There were relatively good performances from 3V and M4, and superlative performances from Koyamaichi laminated white steel."


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html

"The PM-V11 and the White Steel really do deliver. The gap between them and the A2 and O1/HCS is very large."


Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Kananis]

For years I've been advocating the use of diamond paste as a sharpening medium. (I really don't understand how this hasn't caught on) Raises a burr in pm-v11 in a half a heartbeat. I use the water-based Norton product found at gramercy. I used to use mdf as a substrate but I have the steel plates from lv for a while now and really love them.

[Chris Parks]

Here is a video on how sharpening is taught in Japan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LloWwfYTaMQ&ab_channel=CarpentersofJapan

[chuck van dyck]

I have a tsushima stone from Suzukitool. I go back to a 1200 king or 1k shap glass when needed, but typically just return to the tsushima at first clue of needing a hone. Is it the “the best” system? Definitely not, but it is definitely good enough and its fun sharpening handmade irons on millennia old rocks. Searching the internet for “the best” is a losing battle. Just find a system you enjoy and it’s probably good enough.

[Reed Gray]

After watching, well skimming through the above video, I think about how much time is spent on flattening the water stones. A lot, maybe even more than the actual sharpening. With my diamond lapping plates, they are already dead flat, so that eliminates a lot of work. "Efficiency is intelligent laziness." No clue who said that, but some thing I try to apply to everything I do.

robo hippy

[Tom M King]

I didn't watch a video, but it doesn't take long at all to flatten my water stones. Maybe 5 to 10 seconds when they need it, which is not That often. I have 400 and 140 Atoma sheets on a granite surface plate sitting on the drainboard of my sharpening sink, and a double jointed spout from one of the faucets goes right over it.

[Derek Cohen]

After watching, well skimming through the above video, I think about how much time is spent on flattening the water stones. A lot, maybe even more than the actual sharpening. With my diamond lapping plates, they are already dead flat, so that eliminates a lot of work. "Efficiency is intelligent laziness." No clue who said that, but some thing I try to apply to everything I do.

robo hippy

Reed, diamond plates are a part of my sharpening armoury, however the finest (1200 grit) falls somewhat short of what I want as the final polishing stone (13000 Sigma). Flattening is just a part of sharpening, and is done quickly if done regularly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Reed, diamond plates are a part of my sharpening armoury, however the finest (1200 grit) falls somewhat short of what I want as the final polishing stone (13000 Sigma). Flattening is just a part of sharpening, and is done quickly if done regularly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek, I have a DMT extra, extra fine 3 micron (about 8000 grit) plate. I can go from that to the strop and get a very good edge. Time on the strop can get it as good as my 13000 Sigma. The DMT to the Sigma seems a bit faster but not by much. I do strop after the Sigma too. More out of habit than of any real use I think.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

I wonder why these really high end infill planes aren't brought to the Kezuroukai competitions to win the award and show everyone they've been using unnecessarily finicky tools that were developed before resources were plentiful?

How wide is the shaving at the Kezuroukai competition? Are any infill planes that wide?

The following of traditions is another way of saying, "this is the way we have always done it." This is an attitude not much liked by me, but it is respected when it is appropriate.

Traditions do have value. In the western world there used to be apprenticeships. Young woodworkers learned to make some of their own equipment. Now many woodworkers protest, "I don't have the time" to make something so they buy it instead.

Making a mallet, miter box or marking knife teaches skills. Making one's own plane body also taught skills. Even buying one someone else made the blade hade to be fitted.

The social structure in Japan was quite different than that of the U.S. and Europe. A metal body plane likely was financially out of reach to most people wanting to work with wood. Also the weight of carrying a few to a job site was a hinderance.


"Efficiency is intelligent laziness." No clue who said that, but some thing I try to apply to everything I do.

494688

“I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it.”

Bill Gates is often credited for this but it actually came from Frank B. Gilbreth Sr. who watched bricklayers and noticed the lazy ones could do more work without wearing themselves out.

jtk

-- I love reading quotes from all the great, intelligent people who preceded us.

[Cameron Wood]

How wide is the shaving at the Kezuroukai competition?



494715

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek, I have a DMT extra, extra fine 3 micron (about 8000 grit) plate. I can go from that to the strop and get a very good edge. Time on the strop can get it as good as my 13000 Sigma. The DMT to the Sigma seems a bit faster but not by much. I do strop after the Sigma too. More out of habit than of any real use I think.
Jim

Hi Jim, I am aware of the extra extra fine DMT. I did not mention one as I do not see them used much, and I suspect that they are not easy to find. According to the manufacturer, it equate to an 8000 grit waterstone. That appears to be supported by your comment that you use a strop to get it to 13K.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Hi Jim, I am aware of the extra extra fine DMT. I did not mention one as I do not see them used much, and I suspect that they are not easy to find. According to the manufacturer, it equate to an 8000 grit waterstone. That appears to be supported by your comment that you use a strop to get it to 13K.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Truth is I only use water stones for PMV11 plane irons. The extra extra fine DMT or oil stones and a strop is used for most everything. Since green compound and the extra extra fine are supposed to both be about 3 micron it’s a toss up. The strop seems to polish a bit. For paring chisels I’ll sometimes use clean leather without compound to finish up. Does that do anything? Makes me feel better maybe. Can I match a 13000 water stone with a strop? I really don’t know, seems to work. When the metal hits wood and you get the results you expect it’s good. You will know when it doesn’t and you have a do over. I do use the strop a lot, more habit than intent and something to keep hands busy while I think.
Jim

[Chuck Hill]

The green compound that Lee Valley sells "leaves behind a 0.5 micron scratch pattern". I think that means it is about 0.5 micron.

[William Fretwell]

To see if your strop works look for a black build up. I’ve tried plain leather, does nothing, no black. Green compound on leather does get dirty as steel is removed. Green compound on wood does get dirty.

I would never equate a strop with a 13,000 stone. The stone will polish the back flat. The stone will maintain an edge angle. Strops are flexible they polish right at the edge. Trying to polish more would take forever.

[Warren Mickley]

To see if your strop works look for a black build up. I’ve tried plain leather, does nothing, no black. Green compound on leather does get dirty as steel is removed. Green compound on wood does get dirty.

I would never equate a strop with a 13,000 stone. The stone will polish the back flat. The stone will maintain an edge angle. Strops are flexible they polish right at the edge. Trying to polish more would take forever.

I have stropped with clean leather since 1965. I strop because I can see the difference in performance of the tool.

[Reed Gray]

Diamond lapping plates are now available, from DMT, in grits 4000, and 8000. They also have diamond stropping pastes of 1, and 0.5 micron, which I think are in the 8000 and 16000 grit range. Highest grit grinding wheel I have run across is 1200 grit for the Tromek and other wet wheel grinders/sharpeners.

robo hippy

[Cameron Wood]

I didn't watch a video, but it doesn't take long at all to flatten my water stones. Maybe 5 to 10 seconds when they need it, which is not That often. I have 400 and 140 Atoma sheets on a granite surface plate sitting on the drainboard of my sharpening sink, and a double jointed spout from one of the faucets goes right over it.


This sounds odd. IME, stones need to be flattened at least before or after every use.

In the video, which is kind of cute, they did seem to spend excessive time flattening the stones, without checking the progress. One it is flat, it cannot get any flatter, just wears away quicker.

[chuck van dyck]

With the 140 atoma ive also found that it takes but a second to flatten my stones. This could be because I use king stones. They are notoriously soft and is why I like them.

Diamond paste in super high grits rubbed onto a large maple spindle mounted on the lathe is my lazyman power sharpening set up. I have 1k 4k 8k and 40k and green compound on the same spindle. Mostly used on carving and chair making tools, but I will hit the bevel of a japanese chisel if Im doing pairing work and feeling lazy.

[Warren Mickley]

This sounds odd. IME, stones need to be flattened at least before or after every use.

In the video, which is kind of cute, they did seem to spend excessive time flattening the stones, without checking the progress. One it is flat, it cannot get any flatter, just wears away quicker.

I have used King 800 stones for more than 40 years. I sharpen hundreds of chisels and plane irons between flattening sessions.

A more traditional approach is to sharpen so as to avoid getting the stone out of flat. It is more economical as well.

[Cameron Wood]

I have used King 800 stones for more than 40 years. I sharpen hundreds of chisels and plane irons between flattening sessions.

A more traditional approach is to sharpen so as to avoid getting the stone out of flat. It is more economical as well.



Wow. Do you use a kanaban to flatten the back side?

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I have used King 800 stones for more than 40 years. I sharpen hundreds of chisels and plane irons between flattening sessions.

A more traditional approach is to sharpen so as to avoid getting the stone out of flat. It is more economical as well.

To throw in a bit more detail, the idea is to evenly use the entire face of the stone. Although it seems rather self-evident, the more evenly you wear the stone, the longer it stays flat and the less abrasive one will waste through flattening—hence, as Warren said, more economical. I’m still working on developing my judgement and technique for extremely even wear across the face, but improving as time goes on. I still need to flatten my water stones more often than Warren (quite a bit more often—maybe 100 sharpenings, if that, before needing to flatten my 1k grit stone, with “need” judged by what the following stones do), but certainly not as often as I needed to as a beginner.

[James Pallas]

I freehand most of the time. I do own jigs, an original Eclipse and a Mark II. I don’t use them often.No mater what the stone I try to use the whole stone. My question is Wouldn’t it make sense that a jig would tend to hollow a stone because the wheel is running back and forth in the same 2”s or so? I do side sharpen most of the time and find it easy to use the whole stone long ways and chase back and forth across the stone as I go. No expert claim here but I don’t flatten often and anymore I use diamond plates a lot more these days except for PMV11.
Jim

[mike stenson]

Only if the wheel sticks. At that point, you start flat sporting the wheel anyway. Really, I haven't noticed a wheel causing a significant amount of wear when I've used them.

[William Fretwell]

Warren, is that 58 years and still no sign of black on the leather? :).
Seriously, removing any steel leaves a residue on the leather. My clean leather stayed clean.
The green compound makes the whole stropping process quick. The blackening shows it works.

[Warren Mickley]

Wow. Do you use a kanaban to flatten the back side?

No I have not used a kanaban, although Toshio Odate mentioned using a flat plate with silicon carbide in a 1981 article.

I use Arkansas stones for sharpening narrow chisels and gouges, tools that are especially rough on water stones. And once a tool is in service, I use Arkansas stones for day-to-day maintenance of the back.

[Warren Mickley]

I was taught to strop with clean leather. I would notice the difference if I did not strop. I spend maybe eight seconds stropping.

Some use abrasive powder on a strop. If the abrasive is finer than their stones then it can polish the edge. And some use abrasives that break down quickly as you strop so that you are stropping with finer and finer grit as you go.

[William Fretwell]

Lots of things taught and passed on are based on misconceptions.

The Veritas green compound is very fine at 0.5 microns. Why use a compound that you have to break down to work. Honing is not a graduated process like sharpening, it is the final step. Start with a fine compound.

Under my stereo microscope, Veritas green compound on leather polishes the last 1/20 th of a mm. It does a good job, it is the only part of the blade that is shiny under 40X magnification. The black is clearly visible on the ‘green’ leather after 8 strokes. That incredibly small area is loosing steel. Your blade on the clean leather is loosing nothing, it is doing nothing.

It does help when you can actually see what you are doing.

[Jim Koepke]

My question is Wouldn’t it make sense that a jig would tend to hollow a stone because the wheel is running back and forth in the same 2”s or so?

If the wheel is running back and forth on the same 2", so is the blade. Stu's web site is no longer available since he decided to retire from selling tools from Japan. He also posted essays on many aspects of his wares. One of them was on using water stones and how he tested various stones for many qualities. His method of sharpening was to move in straight motions but at a skewed angle to the stone. First toward one side then the other. This was to even out the wear.


I do side sharpen most of the time and find it easy to use the whole stone long ways and chase back and forth across the stone as I go.

My tools also get the side sharpening treatment when my stones may need a bit of flattening.

Like Warren, many edges are honed on my water stones before they are flattened.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

Lots of things taught and passed on are based on misconceptions.

The Veritas green compound is very fine at 0.5 microns. Why use a compound that you have to break down to work. Honing is not a graduated process like sharpening, it is the final step. Start with a fine compound.

Under my stereo microscope, Veritas green compound on leather polishes the last 1/20 th of a mm. It does a good job, it is the only part of the blade that is shiny under 40X magnification. The black is clearly visible on the ‘green’ leather after 8 strokes. That incredibly small area is loosing steel. Your blade on the clean leather is loosing nothing, it is doing nothing.

It does help when you can actually see what you are doing.

There was a guy who used to post on this forum who claimed that we had been buying and using double iron planes for 250 years without noticing that they did not work.

Now we have a guy who claims that though we have used strops for a few millennia, we somehow never noticed that they did not work. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use a strop because I can discern a difference.

[Jim Koepke]

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use a strop because I can discern a difference.

Often after my finest stone an edge is tested against the edge of a piece of paper. Then it is stropped and checked again.

One thing noticed is stropping can improve an edge. Another thing noticed is too much stropping done carelessly can degrade an edge.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

My understanding is that there are two reasons for using a strop. These two targets may both be sought, or just one.

A strop may be used to remove the wire from the edge of the blade. This may not polish the edge, but it will leave a sharper blade once the wire is removed. Secondly, a strop, generally with compound, is another honing “stone”. This can do double duty.

I like plain leather for the former, and smoothed hardwood for the latter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Cameron Wood]

This shows some of the most in-depth sharpening technique.

I think he flattens the stones regularly as well as using the whole surface, and what appear to be pretty hard ceramic stones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SarDvTGivtQ

[Luke Dupont]

My understanding is that there are two reasons for using a strop. These two targets may both be sought, or just one.

A strop may be used to remove the wire from the edge of the blade. This may not polish the edge, but it will leave a sharper blade once the wire is removed. Secondly, a strop, generally with compound, is another honing “stone”. This can do double duty.

I like plain leather for the former, and smoothed hardwood for the latter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yep.

It should also be noted that, while it is far slower and more subtle in comparison to compound, plain leather can and does refine an edge and remove tiny amounts of metal.

I regularly strop both my tools, and razors on plain leather, and you can see the leather darken over time with small amounts of metal being deposited, assuming you use the rough side. To some extent, albiet less, on smooth sided leather as well.

But more to the point are the results. If you don't believe me, try shaving with a razor straight off of a stone. Then again with a few passes to take off the wire edge only. Then again after 50 strokes. And yet again after 100 strokes. Those additional 100 strokes, I guarantee, will give you a far, far keener edge.

The same is true for tools as well. I find that Arks, with their extremely shallow scratch pattern, are particularly well suited to being followed up with a bare leather strop. I can't claim that it's as efficient as not using compound, but if you wanted to get ultra hair popping sharp with your tools, you can do so just fine using bare leather and taking maybe 30-40 passes on each side. Even going half of this amount noticeably improves the edge well past the point of just removing the burr.

The type of leather matters a lot here. Some leather I've used works better on the rough side, some works better on the smooth side, and some pieces of leather will actually dull a tool on one or the other side. Try various pieces and see what works.

[William Fretwell]

Wth the exception of his convex sharpening stone with blades moved at 45 degrees to give a concave edge the rest is very standard.
He does emphasize rounding and tailing off of the corners of plane blades to avoid edge marks. Easy to do freehand, no jig used of course. His flattening plate was far from flat as he demonstrated with a ruler.

[Cameron Wood]

Wth the exception of his convex sharpening stone with blades moved at 45 degrees to give a concave edge the rest is very standard.
He does emphasize rounding and tailing off of the corners of plane blades to avoid edge marks. Easy to do freehand, no jig used of course. His flattening plate was far from flat as he demonstrated with a ruler.


The wooden concave edge model is showing the result you would get from using a stone that is not flat, and the the not-flat diamond plate is demonstrating that you have to check for flat. Those are teaching aids.