Putting Bag in DC cyclone drum....

[Matt Tawes]

Hey guys, I know this has been mentioned somewhere before. I produce about 50-150 gal. of sawdust a week and emptying that 55gal. drum into a bag is getting to be a pain in the butt not to mention a real mess. I've had my Oneida cyclone for about 5yrs. and tried various attemps at retaining a bag inside the drum for ease in emptying with little success (if you don't retain the bag to the bottom and sides the vacuum will suck the bag in making it useless to collect the sawdust).
So my question is this: before I spend the money in buying the "bag gripper" pump from Oneida and installing it in my drum I wanted to ask what others have done. Emptying that thing upto twice a week gets old. And for those suggesting just dumping the bin out back, I already have over 500 gallons dumped at the property line behind my fence bordering a farm field and it does not decompose fast enough so I cannot possibly pile anymore out there (it can be seen from an adjacent road when the field is not planted and is an eye sore). So I have to bag and take to the dump.
Any suggestions on what others have done???

[Chris Fite]

It seems that you could catch the bottom of the bag in a mechanism at the end of a metal strip that reached down the side of the barrel and across the bottom halfway and rested at the top somehow to keep from falling. When the bag was full, you could remove it and unhook the strip from the bottom. Then toss the bag, and replace it with an empty one. I don't have this in practice, it just seems to be a good idea.

[Tom Jones III]

I had a similar idea to Chris, I thought about tying a string to a brick and dropping the brick in the bottom of the bag. I never got a chance to try it out b/c I was given the bag gripper for Christmas.

I installed the gripper and the bag stays in just fine, but looking at it work, the pump is so slow that it *seems* like it would take several minutes for it to develop a vacuum. Has anyone actually tried putting a bag into the drum? Does it really get sucked into the cyclone?

[Matt Tawes]

Hey Tom,

Weighing the bag down does not work as I've put a bit of sawdust in the bottom and tried scraps of wood and such. Its not that it sucks the bag up into the cyclone, what happens is that the vaccuum and static pressure draws the bag in from the sides and actually as swadust falls into it the dust begins to back up into the cyclonerather than filing out the bag (creating a big mess I must say). Over on Woodnet a guy suggested bending a couple strips of laminat into a U shape and laying them in there which might work a little.
I think I may just have to bite the bullet and try the bag gripper. To see what I'm talking about with suction and static try pulling a bag over your drum and then turn it upside down to empty into the bag it will suck it right in like your shrink-wrappping sawdust :D

[Tyler Howell]

Rather than dumping how about composting it with other organics, house, hold veg scraps etc..... Set a few enzimes loose in there and turner over twice a month.
I would bet that it would make some real fertil soil???

[Andy London]

I too have the Oneida and looked at their bag gripper when it first came out. I produce around 200 gallons of dust and chips on average a week. I buy those really large bags from Costco (50 to a box) and when the drum is full they will fit over the top, I then insert a plastic 3/4" pipe down the side for return air and simply lift it up, works great, especially when I have my son nearby to assist.

In the summer/fall I dump the chips in an area of the peoperty I am filling in, I just dump the dust in a trailer I pull around with the tractor and dump it when it's full.

I may still buy the Oneida product, it's not high on the to buy list at the moment though:)

[Brian Hale]

Get a piece of cheap formica, cut it to the hieght of the drum, roll it up and put it in the barrel (put the bag in first) and let it expand around the inside of the drum. When it's time to empty the barrel, pull the formica out first and then the bag.

Brian :)

[Frank Chaffee]

Get a piece of cheap formica…
Brian :)
Now this is the kind of thinking that cuts thru unneeded consumer gadgetry.
Frank

[Jim Hoelzel]

How about making a pvc, tube box? Seens like it would be cheap enough to try. Install bag, place pvc in bag, fill bag, remove pvc, and dispose of bag???

[Tim Devery]

I have an Oneida Cyclone system for FLOOR SANDING.
It also has a 35 gallon drum to catch the sawdust AND a plastic bag is placed inside. This system is not a rigup, but made by oneida.
SO, what is has is a 3/4" metal tube that runs into the drum at the bottom.
This 1" of space on the bottom is covered with a piece of thin "breathable" foam. The bag goes into the drum and the cyclone sits on top.
The hose on the bottom connects to the vacuum side of the cyclone.
I use this thing everyday. If anybody cares, I could post a picture tomorrow. Not tonight, the system is on a job.
Tim

[Mike Linne]

Get a piece of cheap formica, cut it to the hieght of the drum, roll it up and put it in the barrel (put the bag in first) and let it expand around the inside of the drum. When it's time to empty the barrel, pull the formica out first and then the bag.

Brian :)

The Easy Bagger is along the same lines as Brian's suggestion. Available at local hardware or borg. Works great.

[Matt Tawes]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the input. I stuck some formica in there today as suggested and we shall see how that works out.
I'm also going to look into that easy bagger, that's a great suggestinon Mike and looks like it should work well.

[Frank Snyder]

Has anyone tried this solution with the Formica in the bin? Did it work? I'm on the fence if I should get Oneida's bag gripper or find a cheaper (but effective) solution.

Many thanks!

Frank

[Scott Loven]

How about something like this?
http://www.pelletpros.com/index.html
Scott

[Frank Snyder]

Thanks for the idea Scott, but I don't even have a fireplace in my house. I'm also on a tiny city lot, so dumping and composting is a bit of challenge. For now I'm just trying to make it easier to remove the contents of the bin without making mess. I was just curious if someone here tried the Formica idea.

[Rod Sheridan]

I made a cage from steel banding left over from items that had been shipped on pallets.

It has a band welded in a circular shape at the bottom, 4 uprights, and another band at the top. I made it about 1/2 an inch smaller in diameter and height than the fibre drum.

Now I put in a bag, drop the cage in, and use the cyclone. When the bag's full, pull out the cage, remove the bag.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Roxberg]

Formica should work but if you don't have any available you could try this. My hardware store sells a thin plastic insert for holding trash bags open when you are putting leaves in them. One could easily be modified (cut shorter) to work in a cyclone.

I don't own a cyclone yet,this fall, but that is what I plan to do if it works.

I also use these inserts in the garage. I got tired of the trash cans taking up space, having to be brought back up to the house, blowing away, and smelling bad. I now use two of these inserts to keep bags open like cans in the garage and then just carry bags to the curb. Nothing to carry back, blow away, or get stinky, it's an idea that is working for me.

[John Bush]

I made a cylinder using fence wire (welded with 4" squares) that holds the bag quite well and is easily removed when full. Same principle as the laminate cylinder, just depends what you have on hand. How about using cardboard and just tossing it with the bag if you don't compost. I was scolded by the garbage guy because of loose sawdust in the shop waste cans, so that prompted me to bag it. JCB

[John Pohja]

As far as the relatively high cost of Oneida's Bag Gripper, Grizzly is coming out with a similar system and its almost a $100 cheaper too; about $70 for the smaller size and $90 for the larger size(per an email I rec'd from Grizzly). John

[Bob Michaels]

I added the Oneida Gripper to my 3 HP Oneida system when it first came out and it works really great. As far as inserting formica or so something in the empty bag, I would think that anything you have to extract from that bag of dust is just going to create a nice big plume of the same dust you just collected. Kinda self defeating. Anyway, I vote for just buying the Gripper and enjoying the benefits thereof.

[Frank Snyder]

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'm tempted to try them.

Bob - To your point, I could see making the dust airborne while extracting either the cage or sleeve, which does seem to negate the benefits of the bag. As it is now, the cage or sleeve idea would still be an improvement to my present process, as unloading the 55-gallon drum into a bag is a real mess.

John - I'd be interested to see how Grizzly does this.

Thanks again for the ideas.

[Dan Forman]

Sam Blasco from Mini-Max uses a technique similar to the formica one, he takes a plastic trash can and removes the bottom, cuts a slit down the side so it opens up completely, then uses that as an insert inside the bag to hold the bag to the sides of the barrel. He uses a piece of wood as a wedge, with grooves in the sides to receive the cut edges of the platic can, to force it out and conform to the diameter of the DC receptacle. When the bag is full, pull out the inner form and dispose of the bag. No welding needed with this one. I'll try and locate a picture of this. My only concern about using formica would be the possiblility of tearing the bag with a sharp edge.

About the Easy Bagger, that would be the same concept, but it appears that it would be of smaller diameter than the cardboard 35 to 55 gallon drums most commonly used with DC's. Still, could be handled just like Sam does, cut it and use a wedge to make up the difference.

Dan

[Eric Wong]

I made a cylinder using fence wire (welded with 4" squares) that holds the bag quite well and is easily removed when full. Same principle as the laminate cylinder, just depends what you have on hand.

I did the same as John. I had some spare fence wire laying around so I made it from that. Works OK.

[Dan Forman]

Well, I tried the formica solution, but it was a dismal failure. I have a formica supplier a few blocks away who gave me a great deal, the experiment only cost me $5.00 for a 10 foot by 30 inch piece, so I have lots of scrap left over for other things.

Here is the problem. The stuff is too stiff, when rolled it forms a teardrop rather than a cylinder. The point of the teardrop tears the bag on insertion, and when it forms itself to the barrel, it's very difficult to get it out past the little part of the upper rim where it narrows. If the bag was full, one could never get the formica out, it was hard enough with the bag being empty, and it tore the bag even more. I think the material would have to be softer and have less memory than formica. With Sam's trash can solution, the form is already more or less cylindrical, so much easier to deal with.

Do those of you who use the Easy Bagger, do you have the 35 or 55 gal drum? Is it significantly smaller in diameter than the drum?

Dan

[Steve Roxberg]

Dan,

The bagging option that I mentioned sounds like the answer. The corners have been rounded, it's very flexible, and it has two handles cut in the top to help when pulling it out. They cost $8 but I don't remember the brand name, would you like me to look next time I'm at the store?

They are sold at my local Ace Hardware store.

[Howard Acheson]

Get a piece of cheap formica, cut it to the hieght of the drum, roll it up and put it in the barrel (put the bag in first) and let it expand around the inside of the drum. When it's time to empty the barrel, pull the formica out first and then the bag.

Brian :)

Yup, been doing that for years except I have a large sheet of 1/8" plexiglass that I used. Be sure to soften and smooth the edges and corners.

I used some duct tape on the edges.

[Cecil Arnold]

Dan, save your $$ on the easy bagger. When I tried it I found that unless you could clip it open it would allow the sides of the bag to be pulled in, reducing the capicity of the bag to about half.

[Eric Wong]

You can buy the wire fencing pretty cheap, or maybe one of your neighbors has a yard or so laying around. Give it a try.

Also, you should use heavy trash bags, forget the thin ones. Way too frustrating. Buy the thick "contractor" bags, or at least heavy duty ones.

One more thing, check Bill Pentz's website. He had a trick where he epoxied refridgerator clips to the bottom of the can, and clipped the bag in. When full, you can just pull the bag out of the clips without tearing (supposedly).

[Dan Forman]

I looked around for the Easy Bagger, but they must be out of season, for none was to be found. So I got a plastic garbage can, with a jig saw cut out the bottom, cut off the top, and slit it down the middle. When sitting in the barrel, the cut ends were not parallel, so I trimmed them a bit to make them so. Last step was to make the spreader, a piece of 3/4" ply, with grooves on each long edge to receive the cut sides of the plastic can. The edges and corners of the spreader were rounded and sanded to protect against tearing the bag.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/Woodwork/P1010667.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/Woodwork/P1010668.jpg

Note the handle cut into the spreader to make it easier to remove from the full barrel, and the holes cut near the top of the plastic can (only one set is visible) for the same purpose. I think this is going to work just fine, total cost was $15 for the 45 gallon garbage can. The plastic garbage can is much easier to handle than the formica was, not nearly as much spring to it. Again, I got the idea from Sam Blasco, so can't claim any credit for that.

Dan

[Jim O'Dell]

Pictures, Dan, we need pictures!! :D Glad it worked. I still need to do something, but haven't gotten to the point of emptying my barrel for the first time yet....so it's not high on the list.:rolleyes: Jim.

[Steve Aiken]

Great idea, Dan...let us know how it works when it's time to empty the bag....

Steve

[Grant Wilkinson]

I did something similar to Dan. I used a piece of linoleum that I got for nothing at a flooring place. I didn't do Dan's spreader idea. I may now, though. I just fit the lino the first time, and duct taped it together. I've had it out and replaced it once, and it seems to work OK. But, it will be better with Dan's spreader. (Nice rythme, don't you think?)

[Dan Forman]

Grant---Very eponymous. :cool:

I would think the linolium idea will work fine, wish I had thought of it! It would certainly be more flexible than the formica.

Dan

[Dan Forman]

Well, I have to report that the trash can solution is a bust. The first time it worked fine, very little material escaped when pulling it out of the bag. The next two times I tried it, the trash can gave way, just folded in on itself, nearly leading to the filter filing up, happened to see that the flex hose from the cyclone to the barrel was filled with chips before it got out of hand. Tried again keeping a better eye on it, and after a couple of on and offs, it collapsed again, so back to the drawing board to find something more rigid.

Dan

[Jim Dunn]

Local borgs sell a pvc sorta springy paper bag expander to put leaves and yard waste in. I use it in my 30gal trash can with a bag and it works great. I'm using a commercial type trash can.

[Peter Stahl]

gentlemen, please check out parksandparks.com for a elegant way to prebag dust from your cyclone collector! it's like magic,thank you B.P.


The Parks dohicky looks pretty neat, $195 is the highest of the 3 mentioned. The Oneida Bag Gripper connects to the side of the drum and sucks the air out from between the drum and the bag keep the bag tight. The oneida come with it's own little vac pump that can be wired in so it starts with your cyclone, $166.58. The Grizzly H4353 Complete Bag Kit doesn't have the little vac pump, $67.05. If you already have some type of vac pump then it looks like the Grizzly would be the best buy. When I worked in the lab we sucked the bags tight to the drum with house vacuum and they stayed put while we filled them but with the cyclone constantly sucking I don't think they would stay.

[Eric Wong]

Has anyone tried Bill Pentz's trick of gluing a couple refridgerator type clips to the bottom of the can? He says the clips keep the bag in place until some chips build up, but won't tear the bag when you pull it out.

Anyone tried this?

[Peter Stahl]

I looked at the Parks video a couple more times (had noting to do with Rebecca demonstrating it I swear) and it looks like it's a drum dolly with a drum with no bottom. You have the drum barrel with the top attached, turn it upside down and put the bag over the bottom of the drum. Turn it right side up, pull the bag up and hold in place with a rubber band/tubing. When it's full you take off the rubber band and pull the drum out of the bag slowly. Tie up the bag and roll it off to the trash area. Going to have to look at that demo a couple more times to be sure Rebecca is doing it the way I said. This system would work like the laminate trick someone mentioned. With a heavy enough drum you could make this yourself.

[Eric Wong]

I looked at the Parks video a couple more times (had noting to do with Rebecca demonstrating it I swear)

I didn't see any sort of barrel in the video....what are you guys referring to?:D

[Dan Forman]

dan check out our web page parksandparks.com for a technique we've been using for 2years in our shop to our great delight! thanks W. Parks

It looks good, but I think I can solve the problem for less than $200.

Dan

[William J Parks]

Dan, Thank you for your comment. There couldn't be a more simple and elegant solution. Magic trumps money. WP

[Jim Dunn]

This is the liner I use. Picked it up for $2.00 at the local borg on clearance.

[Dan Forman]

Jim---Is that the "Easy Bagger"?. I looked around for one locally but couldn't find one, may be a seasonal item only available in fall. I hear there is another type of Formica that is thinner which might work, may try that or linoleum next.

Dan

[Larry Browning]

I didn't see any sort of barrel in the video....what are you guys referring to?:D
Eric,
I think that you would replace your existing barrel with theirs. This is the same idea as the leaf bag liner, except the barrel IS the liner.
I think you could make this yourself by taking a plastic 55 gal barrel and fitting it with the flex hose in the bottom of the barrel. Then attach some wheels to the barrel lid.
In this part of the country, you can get these barrels for about 7-10 bucks at most any gas station. You can even find the white translucent ones if you look long enough.

[Jim Dunn]

I think it was the easy bagger. My wife actually picked them up and never could use them. I found it after it was un-bagged:)

[Jim Becker]

What I couldn't get from the video was exactly how the whole thing could have a perfect seal...which is an absolute requirement for use with a cyclone. Even a very, very minor air leak will result in blow-by and an impacted filter.

[Larry Browning]

What I couldn't get from the video was exactly how the whole thing could have a perfect seal...which is an absolute requirement for use with a cyclone. Even a very, very minor air leak will result in blow-by and an impacted filter.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If there was a small hole in the bottom bag caused by installing a new bag or something like that .