Fix or Replace Festool Domino DF500?

[Jeff Roltgen]

Found a couple-year old thread elsewhere that was quite discouraging, regarding repair of a domino machine by factory service, so wondering if fixing my 10+ year old machine is a good idea, or give it a proper burial and just buy a new one.

Symptoms: Aligning parts flush. Constantly off by about .5mm, especially when using the smaller 5x30 dominos. Just completed a process this morning, being very careful about my methods and used a block of wood to assure alignment of fence/tongue. One series of joints came out pretty good, other side was back to the half-mm off issue again. My old Makita biscuit joiner does a more accurate job now.
Also, pencil lines used to be dead on for alignment. No matter how much I try to adjust the index line on the tongue, just seems to constantly be floating, again, roughly .5mm each direction.

User error certainly is always a possibility, but this baby is very well worn. Inspection with straight edge indicates that plate/tongue is not truly flat any longer.
Quick search shows that part for my model# has been discontinued, eliminating the idea of a quick R&R myself. Assuming Festool would replace that part with a newer version if I pay for repairs ( or that parts NLA, and a new machine is in order anyway?)

Have gone through cases of the 10mm dominos over the years, meaning I've racked up thousands of joints with this unit. Almost every project in my full-time shop gets at least a couple somewhere, and I really rely on this machine very heavily. Just recently, the problems have really been getting worse, and I need to re-establish my trust in either this machine or a new one.

Anyone else do the repair option through Festool service lately?
If I decide to buy new, what to do with the old one?
Are there any upgrades over the years that I might find beneficial anyway?

All thoughts/input appreciated.

jeff

[Kevin Jenness]

Sounds like you got your money's worth. I'd scrap it and get a new one, especially if needed parts are unavailable. I would have hoped for better ongoing support from Festool but them's the breaks.

When I first saw the Domino I thought that the oscillation pivot was likely the weak point. I suspect that wear in that area is causing the flush fit problem. It could be a simple bearing I suppose. Have you tried getting in touch with the repair dep't? If you can't repair or replace the fence though it is academic.

[Patrick Kane]

Hey Jeff, are you off .5mm vertically or horizontally? I use the word 'vertical' to mean the workpiece thickness is off .5mm when joined(this would suck), or do you mean the width is .5mm off? I.e. this could be user error by misaligning the pencil marks etc. The latter is easily fixed by switching to a wider mortise option and nudging the joint to perfection in your clamps. It is a little 'sloppier' work method, but im sure the resulting joint is nearly as strong due to the long grain to long grain glue surface being equivalent to a tight mortise. If it's the former and you have worn the reference plates out of flat, then i think its safe to assume this is a wear problem. Like Kevin says, i guess you got your money's worth and it is a somewhat useless tool--in my shop, atleast. The whole point of the domino for me is its accuracy. Still, somebody might have an interest in your worn domino for the right price. I would list it as being a little off for a bargain and let someone else figure out if its fixable or not. Because i am curious, how out of flat are your reference plates? That is so strange to me, because those plates really dont see any wear. Its not like you are pushing miles of lumber over their surface like you see at a planer/table saw/jointer beds.

I believe the 700 is an appreciable upgrade over the original 500. The ergonomics are much nicer, and it sounds like you only use larger tenons anyway. I sold my 500 for a 700 and never looked back.

[Michael Burnside]

I've heard good things about Festool's repair process, but to be honest if the tool is well used and 10 years old, I'd be inclined to scrap it or sell it cheap and get a new one. Or I would keep it if it still cuts good with a messed-up fence and use a Seneca fixed block and have two Dominos :)

[Jeff Roltgen]

That is so strange to me, because those plates really dont see any wear.

That is correct, Patrick. Regular wear would not do that. Think impact (s). :eek:
No tool is completely immune to gravity, sadly.

Michael, I think you gave me the best idea for the old one - a fixed block and run the pair. Despite all the use/abuse, the darn thing still runs solid, it's just the pins/rivets and general alignment of the fence assembly that is finally just worn enough to not hold to spec. I'd say the orbit mech could still be crazy close to original tolerances. The dominos themselves still fit just as snug in the mortices as ever.

Have certainly contemplated the DF700 since it's release, just feeling like it might be a bit over-sized (?)

Thanks, all. Guess I'll be ordering a new one, which was what my gut told me would be the best business decision, as much as it's valued and relied upon.
Fortunately, all I need is the tool, so that will keep the cost to the absolute minimum.

After all these years, the domino has proven it's value in spades, and I certainly don't mind investing in another.

jeff

[Jeff Roltgen]

Perhaps this is a good time to hijack my own thread and steer it this way:
DF500 replacement for a veteran user, or,
might I be happier going for the 700?

Just interesting to hear Patrick say he made the switch and hasn't looked back. Sounds like it can do almost everything the 500 did, based on current availability of adaptors for bits, if I understand correctly, maybe all?

jeff

[Kevin Jenness]

Have certainly contemplated the DF700 since it's release, just feeling like it might be a bit over-sized (?)


I've used both and would find the 700 overly heavy for most cabinetwork. If I didn't have a stationary slot mortiser I would probably have both the 500 and 700.

[Robyn Horton]

Jeff Is it possible to buy the complete fence assembly for the Domino with the new style paddles and slide it on your DF500 that has the pins ?
Edit ... I just looked on Festool's Ekat system and it looks like the complete fence assembly that has the newer style paddles for the DF500 is $290.80. item part # 202470 and part 102 in the parts diagram its called a Guide Frame

[Jeff Roltgen]

Robyn,
That is a good question - probably one for Festool, but they certainly have an allergy to anyone fixing their tools but them. Still, may be worth the call. That and a DF700 and I'd be in great shape!

Meanwhile, Kevin's suggestion reminded me of this:

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-horizontal-slot-mortiser/g0846

That's quite an impressive buy, when compared to the DF700...

jeff

[Jim Becker]

DF500 is lighter and absolutely the best choice if you primarily use 8mm and smaller Dominos. For bigger furniture and constructions, the DF700 can do the beefy work for sure and can support the small stuff with an adapter, but I view that as for occasional utility. Subjective I know! I actually have the Seneca adapter for my DF700 to use the smaller stuff but in the three years I've owned it, I've never used a single small Domino yet. So for me, the bigger unit is better choice. (Depending on where my projects go with the new shop, I may just get a DF500 to compliment the DF700)

I agree with the sentiment that at this point, your current Domino has more than paid for itself, and I'd personally buy a new replacement over trying to fix it up, especially given how your business depends upon it for your workflow.

BTW, a big slot mortiser is a very nice production machine, but it's certainly not as convenient to use as a Domino nor is it, um...portable. ;)

[Randy Heinemann]

I think it's worth submitting a request to service concerning your question about parts or calling them. It's likely an easy answer question and, if possible, would probably save you many hundreds of dollare over a new Domino.

The only reason I'd buy a 700 instead of a 500 is if the majority of your work is large projects like doors, tables, beds, etc. If you've been using the 500 all these years and it has served all of your needs, there would be no reason to replace with a 700. As I've said in the past, the 500 and 700 are made for different scales of work. While I'm sure you will find those who swear by the 700 and using it with the Seneca adapter for smaller projects, I find the 700 difficult to use on smaller projects. I've tried it a couple of times when I wanted more substantial tenons in a smaller project. It just doesn't work nearly as well as the 500 for these projects.

[Patrick Kane]

I can specify my preference for the 700, but i think i provided a longwinded response to another one of these threads before. We should compile all the 500v700 threads into one. In my opinion of using both for years a piece, the 500 is a less refined and more limited tool. However, I think the 500 is the superior tool for case construction using material(solid or ply) that is 3/4" or less in thickness. Thats it, anything else i prefer the 700. And, it's not like the 700 cant join 3/4" or thinner material using the seneca bit adapter, it's just clunkier because of the center of the mortise from the base plate. I used to clamp case dividers to the case sides and move along with the 500 referencing off the base plate horizontally and then vertically. If you do that same method with the 700, the mortise would be far from centered in 3/4" material. If you are a cabinet maker, then the 500 is probably the better tool. If you are more varied in your builds, then the 700 is better. I am a hobbyist furniture/built in/cabinet maker. First and foremost, 10mm by 25mm is NOT a 'beefy' tenon. 14mm by 75mm is substantial, but even that seems inadequate to me for very large gates, tables etc. I say this to reinforce the 700 is not oversized/too big for most normal furniture joinery. The 700 fits well into projects from a typical dining chair up to full sized dining tables/king sized bed frame/entry doors. I would argue that 4-10mm tenons for most furniture joinery is undersized and inadequate. I know people get by with doubling or tripling up on these smaller tenons, but you are still very limited by the plunge depth of the 500. The 700 has better ergonomics. I hate the barrel grip and banging my hand off the dust port and hose each plunge. The action uses minor muscle groups in your forearm and your hand. The 700 engages more of your bicep, and i do all of my plunging with my leg/lower body. It is heavier, but its a lot less fatigue on major muscle groups for sessions plunging 40-50+ mortises. The metal pins on the 700 are more flexible and better design than the 500 paddle. The system for setting your mortise plunge depth is better designed and offers greater flexibility than the 500. I dont really miss the 3 width settings of the 500 versus the 2 settings on the 700. I find the lever change between the two settings to be much nicer than the gear box knob on the 500. I always felt like i missed a gear in my 5 speed beetle when i changed width settings on the 500. The 700 you change while it is not running and its very smooth. Honestly, i think the 500 is due for a redesign, in my opinion. I think the pins and plunge depth of the 700 should be easily retrofitted into the 500 design.

Im going to really open up a can of worms on you now. Would you consider the Mafell or Lamello? For pure cabinet/built in case construction, i think both manufacturers stand out with professionals i read and speak with. I havent used either tool to compare with the domino, but i did sell my festool saw in exchange for Mafell. I have their chain mortiser and drilling station. Mafell is definitely a head above Festool, and potentially shoulders too.

[Jeff Roltgen]

So glad we had this little talk. Short term solution:

1> Yes, the newer guide frame assembly # 202.470, is what the factory service would use to repair my older DF500, per the friendly, helpful folks in customer service (who, BTW, called back within 90 seconds!) $325.80 is total cost, including shipping to me.
2> They qualified that this would be a field-replaceable part, as you're simply sliding the whole new assembly in place, just like after a bit change, in place of the well-worn older, obsolete guide frame assembly. Naturally, they reiterated how a full repair service would result in a fully refurbed tool, as we all know.

Decision: I've placed the order. Based on almost daily reliance, I hated the thought of sending it in and being at a loss for what could easily be 3-5 weeks. This puts a remedy in place in a week or so. At $325, this was a no-brainer.

What about the wear and tear on the rest of it? As mentioned, dominos fit about as good as day one. Doesn't mean I'm good as new, but opens up the door to point #3:

3> Having gone through this, I feel the optimal outcome is to very shortly pick up that Big Boy DF700. I know I could use it, given the furniture and aspirations/opportunities to use for larger structures, like doors. This should put the DF500 into a secondary position, held for the smaller stuff, and the bulk of the bigger stuff (10mm and up) can be handled by the DF700, thereby extending the service life of the original much longer.

I am impressed with these machines, couldn't be happier with the service, and who knows - perhaps I can stretch that original to a solid 20 years of service!
Best of all, I am able to move from a point of burning full cost of a new machine to restore my current position, to actually gaining much larger capacity and options with the big dog, provided I follow through with that purchase shortly. Much easier now, with a short-term solution closer to 1/4 the cost of new. Always need to weigh value of that which you are repairing with ROI. I feel this is a solid bet in this situation.

Again, thanks to all, and hope this helps any others who land in a similar situation.

jeff

[Kevin Jenness]

Would you consider the Mafell or Lamello? For pure cabinet/built in case construction, i think both manufacturers stand out with professionals i read and speak with..

They are such different machines with different strengths. I'm sure the Mafell doweler is very good at what it does but I am not a big fan of dowel joinery in general or for casework in particular. As with tight fitted Dominos you really have to register the machine very precisely to locate a series of holes or mortises. The Domino machines with their wider mortise setting and biscuit machines inherently allow for less precision in marking out and machining which to me is a positive feature. Even though I have the small Domino machine I still use a biscuit joiner more for casework as it is a bit faster and I don't have to keep track of the depth setting. The Domino is slightly more precise in aligning flush surfaces, but not by much when using Lamello brand biscuits. Lamello is definitely a premium toolmaker and innnovator (they started the whole biscuit thing) but I have been quite happy with my 35 year old Virutex. If it dies before I do I'll probably invest in a Lamello machine, a Zeta P2 if I am still working for money.

If I could have only one of these I would opt for a Domino 700, but I just find it overscaled for a lot of the work I do. The extra 4 1/2 lbs over the 500 is hard on my old back.


edit: I see that Mafell has a finger template for accurate location of series holes, so that disposes of one of my objections. It allows for line boring for shelf pins as well. Maybe someone who has actually used one will give a review. Mafell certainly does have a great reputation, especially for timber framing tools.

There's a comparison video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m78BZHu-uuA Not shown, but the Zeta P2 will take a 4mm cutter for standard biscuits.

Jeff. that seems like a great solution.

[Michael Burnside]

Bro, 10 years of use would tell me to replace the 500 and get a 700 when finances allow. You know the 500 works! That experience is valuable. If the 500 is repairable then 700 it is.

My personal opinion is the 700 is too big for most of what I do. I’ve used the 700 on a big job to know enough I’d hate using it on every project.

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, I think you ended up with a good solution...a reasonable repair to current spec for the guide assembly and the bigger tool to your stable for the bigger work. You'll be impressed what you can do with the 12 and 14mm tenon stock and the greater depth that's available with the DF700 for heavy joints as well as the bigger 14mm connectors for knock down needs. Very complimentary tools for sure. 'Glad they could help you with the part you needed!