Bowl Gouge Questions

[James Baldwin]

Hi, I hope I'm not opening a can or worms here but this a continuation of the Robert Sobly spindle gouge post that I made with the chuck question. I'm going to return the spindle gouge and get a bowl gouge. Crown, Thompson, and D-way were suggested. Pinnacle is available at my local Woodcraft store. I'm only looking a the Cryo steel versions. They are al priced about the same except for D-way which don't come with a handle. I have my own handles. The Pinnacle is $122 locally (cheaper than Amazon) and I like the feel of it also doesn't involve shipping which adds the overall price of the others. The D-way would be slightly less even with shipping but it doesn't specify the length of the blade. I'm also upgrading my grinding wheels to CBN from Wood Turners Wonders. Went with an 8" X 1" X 180grit on one side and a 8" X 1 1/2" X 600 grit Mega-square on the other side. Jim

[Edward Weber]

On the D Way site, there are photos under the gouges with the dimensions.

[John Keeton]

From reading the description of the Pinnacle gouges it appears they are made from M2 HSS that has been cryogenically treated. They claim it “offer many of the characteristics of powdered metal tools without the cost of powdered metal tools.”

However, they don’t expound on that.

You apparently have handles and I would think you can get a much better gouge from Thompson or D-Way for less than the Pinnacle. Most of the responses you have received on this topic in your other thread have come from folks that have been turning for many years. You have asked for opinions and it is relevant that Pinnacle was not mentioned.

[Kevin Jenness]

I second John's advice. I have several Thompson tools and they are top quality steel. D-Way also has a great reputation. One thing to keep in mind is that D-Way round bar tools are larger than the nominal dimension so may not fit in another maker's handle.

Another consideration is flute shape which can make a gouge more suitable to one or another tip shape. D-Way and Crown make parabolic flute gouges while Thompson offers either v or u shapes (Lyle Jamieson sells what he describes as a parabolic flute bowl gouge made by Thompson). They all work but you may want to know about the differences to inform your choice. Or it may just be confusing -. make of it what you will. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210258-Bowl-gouge-flute-shapes

[Edward Weber]

I second John's advice. I have several Thompson tools and they are top quality steel. D-Way also has a great reputation. One thing to keep in mind is that D-Way round bar tools are larger than the nominal dimension so may not fit in another maker's handle.

Another consideration is flute shape which can make a gouge more suitable to one or another tip shape. D-Way and Crown make parabolic flute gouges while Thompson offers either v or u shapes (Lyle Jamieson sells what he describes as a parabolic flute bowl gouge made by Thompson). They all work but you may want to know about the differences to inform your choice. Or it may just be confusing -. make of it what you will. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?210258-Bowl-gouge-flute-shapes

If I could only buy one, I would get the parabolic flute.

[William C Rogers]

We all have our preferences. For me I favor the V flute.

[James Baldwin]

I just run across a video by Crafts Supplies USA comparing lathe tool steels. Looks like M42 kind of offers the best of edge holding and the fact that it can be honed to a fine edge. I'm going to take a hard look at Carter and Sons Toolworks. Their unhandled tools are reasonably priced and they offer a variety grinds. Jim

[James Baldwin]

Well I visited my Woodcraft store and took a closer look at the Pinnacle tools. They are made by Crown in Sheffield, En. They seem to be a pretty good quality. I just turn for fun and not professionally. I don't want cheap but I don't want out of sight either. They might be a good compromise but I'm looking at Carter and Son also which are M42 steel. Jim

[roger wiegand]

The grind a tool comes with is irrelevant, as it is gone after the first time you sharpen it and shape it to your preference-- and you'll be sharpening your bowl gouge several times a day. Flute shape is related to the school of grind you want to use. If you only have one gouge the Ellsworth/Irish grinds are most versatile and they work best with a parabolic flute. A 40/40 or traditional grind is more forgiving with respect to flute shape, working well with V or parabolic.

My Thompson gouges stay sharper in use noticeably longer than the M2 gouges I have, though I went probably 15 years with only a Henry Taylor Superflute (M2) with an Ellsworth grind and it served the need just fine. Just a nubbin of it left now! I also have a number of D-Way tools which are also very nice, and, at least for skews, much more nicely finished than the Thompson skews. Don't have experience with their bowl gouges. Can't speak to the Carter tools, after an interaction with them at a show a number of years ago where the person in the booth was badmouthing their competition pretty badly I decided to shop elsewhere-- their tools may well be great, I didn't appreciate the attitude.

[Neil Strong]

Pinnacle cryo made by Crown in Sheffield UK wouldn't be a bad decision. It will be slightly better than standard M2 without the cryo tempering, but not by much IME.

Cryo tempering of a steel improves it slightly, but better steels made with Powdered Metal (PM) techniques produce better carbide formation that will provide enhanced performance characteristics that might be further enhanced with cryo treatment.

The two PM steels now most commonly used in turning tools are M42 and V10 (and V15 less frequenly):

IME, M42 has finer carbides than V10 and takes a finer edge while retaining its edge longer than an M2 that has had cryo treatment.

I find that the carbides in 10V doesn't take quite as fine an edge as M42, but that edge certainly holds up very well in the more abrasive and hard woods we commonly use down here. And, 15V holds up even longer at the expense of never getting as sharp. I find the high vanadium carbides (V) have slightly more durability than M42, but only very slightly. The 10V also outperforms M2, regardless of heat treatment.

There are improvements in the performance of steels over others, but I've never found the multiples of improvement claimed my manufacturers. Price also comes into it. If you are getting twice the performance from a tool that costs half as much again then that is sufficient advantage for me, but not if it costs three times as much for only twice the performance.

i have as may 10V as M42 tools in my rack and I rarely think about the difference in their steels when I'm reaching for a tool unless it is to do a finishing cut. I don't think you can go wrong with either of those steels. I also have some bog standard M2 tools in my rack, which I've had before any of the more exotic steels and processes mentioned above came along, and they still get used very regularly and will continue to do so until they are just a bit of round bar!

Tools that include the price of a handle is another consideration. By all means buy an interchangeable handle that can be used with multiple gouges, but a woodturner paying for someone else to turn a dedicated wooden handle to come on a gouge beats me, especially if the cost of that could be put towards a better gouge steel that you put your own handle on. The shipping cost of gouges with handles already on them is another factor.

I also have views about flute profiles, but I'll leave that to a separate post.

[John Keeton]

For reasons not appropriate to post here I will never do business with Carter and Son. I personally know Doug Thompson, as do many of the folks here, as well as Dave Schweitzer, the founder of D-Way Tools. Both are quality folks. I don’t know Jimmy, the present owner of D-Way, but Dave trusted him with the business and that is good enough for me.

V10 and M42 are superior metals and either will serve one well. For me, flute profile is a very important factor. I have Doug’s V and U gouges and each has a place. His 3/8” V is one of my most used gouges, as are his spindle detail gouges. I love my D-Way parabolic bowl gouge.

I don’t see how one can go wrong with these choices.

[Reed Gray]

I have all Thompson and D Way, which have a more V shaped flute. I would like to have some unhandled parabolic fluted tools, but only place I can buy them, apparently, are from Carter and Son. On their web site they comment that the M42 HSS will take a finer edge than the V10. To me, there is NO evidence to back that up. In my years of using these tools, I can tell no difference in sharpness or edge durability when sharpened on the same grinding wheel. I have a friend/mentor who turned almost 800 key trays for the coastal myrtle wood shops, and did this for about 30 years. I asked him if he could tell any difference and he said no. I wouldn't even buy a 'signature' tool if it had my name on it... As for cryogenically treated metals, I guess that does add a bit to the durability of the edge, but as near as I can tell, it still doesn't come close to the M42 and V10 metals performance wise. That is a big enough difference that I won't even try it. For handles, I prefer a straight wood cylinder. They just feel better in my hands.

robo hippy

[John Keeton]

Reed, the D-Way gouge seems to me to be much closer to a parabolic shape than does Doug's V or U. But, that is just my impression. I am not one to try every new toy that comes out, nor every "perfect" grind. I am happy with what I have and I think all the "expert" grinds are largely a gimmick for folks to remain relevant in the turning world. I didn't take any classes, nor belong to a club, nor had a mentor when I started turning. Most of what influenced my beginnings were here on the creek, but as for the angles and grind profile of my gouges, they came about by wasting away a good portion of a gouge to arrive at something that felt comfortable and would do what I wanted with the least amount of effort and risk. I do think it would be helpful for a beginner to have a mentor, but to keep in mind that everyone does things a bit differently. There certainly are some things NOT to do, but few HAVE TO DO things.

[Edward Weber]

Reed, the D-Way gouge seems to me to be much closer to a parabolic shape than does Doug's V or U. But, that is just my impression. .

From D-Way
"The flutes are a parabolic U shaped with tapered sides not a deep V. U shaped gouges are great for either finger nail or bottom feeder grinds. "

https://d-waytools.com/gouges/bowl-gouges/

[David Bassett]

For reasons not appropriate to post here I will never do business with Carter and Son. ...

+1

(and I need more text, so: )

James, you ask for the collective wisdom of the board and apparently don't like it. But how can supporting small companies producing a superior product and dedicated to the turning community be a bad choice?

[Prashun Patel]

I own about 5 Thompson bowl gouges. Half in U have in V. I am a wee-bit partial to the V. But if you changed all my V's to U's I don't think I'd notice too much at first.

I don't think it's a critical decision.

When I started, I got a Thompson 1/2" V and it and I still use it regularly.

I think if you pick a 3/8" or 1/2" from D-way or Thompson in any profile, you won't be wasting your money; it will be more than good enough to grow with your ability, and won't be an impediment to your joy, efficiency, or creativity.

[Eugene Dixon]

I have a plethora of Thompson gouges, a couple of Glen Lucas, Sorby, etc. I find that Doug's flutes are rippled and generally not smooth meaning that the flutes need to be dressed. Right now, my go-to gouges for finish cuts come from Brent at Robust. YMMV, but great people to do business with and great tools, IMHO.

[Edward Weber]

All the brands mentioned are good quality, I don't think you could really go wrong with any of them.
I have heard a few people have negative stories about Carter & Sons tools, but I don't know first hand, what ever that's worth. I do have one of their gouges, and it's a very nice tool, good quality steel.
I have several Thompson tools, and I'm quite satisfied with their quality. I did have had a couple issues with them in the past. (customer service)
I don't buy handled tools, IMO it's better to make your own to fit your frame, your arms and your hands.

I know many here talk about how this or that person is a great guy to buy tools from and so on, and that's all well and good. I don't know any of the people mentioned here personally or have ever met them.
Unless the seller has done something to vex me in some way, or there is some good reason other than hearsay, why I shouldn't, I will purchase from them.
At the end of the day, I want a quality tool at a fair price. Who ever can offer that usually wins, nice guy or not.

Hope the OP finds what he's looking for

[Tim Elett]

Great information for a new turner.

[Tom Levy]

Another option is to get a cheap but serviceable bowl gouge with handle quickly so you can get practice turning/sharpening. Something like the hurricane 1/2” HSS for $43 with handle. You won’t feel bad grinding away while you learn to sharpen on something like that and let’s you practice turning bowls. Wait and get a pricier tool once you got some miles on the cheapo one. I started with one from that line and I’d do the same if I was starting over again.

[Randy Heinemann]

I don't know that much about steel or gouge shapes or the advantages or disadvantages of a particular grind. Plus, I, as I think most turners are, drawn toward grinds, tools, and steel that work for them. I have bought several Crown bowl gouges, all except one with the Ellsworth type trind (which usually means that the gouge is much more expensive). The last 1/2" Crown gouge I bought did not have the Ellsworth grind and I got a little bit of an educaton on how to create that grind. All my Crown gouges are the Pro PM metal. I have found that this gouge/metal seems to hold and edge for a long time (but I admit I don't have much experience with other metals except for scrapers and a detail spindle gouge which I don't use all that often). So, I would highly recommend the Crown Pro-PM gouges. They can be easily sharpened to an excellent edge and hold the edge for quite awhile. However, as I said, everyone seems to recommend what they have experience and feel comfortable with.

[Brian Deakin]

I live in the Uk and I was told the following, which I found interesting
The Uk made tools are not heat treated along the entire length of the tool There is a length of steel at the handle end which is not heat treated
The rational , if you have a catastrophic accident the tool fails because of this unheat treated steel and this is seen as a safety feature
I was told that some manufactureers in the USA heat treat the entire length of the tool and this is regarded as a less safe design

[Edward Weber]

I live in the Uk and I was told the following, which I found interesting
The Uk made tools are not heat treated along the entire length of the tool There is a length of steel at the handle end which is not heat treated
The rational , if you have a catastrophic accident the tool fails because of this unheat treated steel and this is seen as a safety feature
I was told that some manufactureers in the USA heat treat the entire length of the tool and this is regarded as a less safe design


I can't say for sure if that's true, but the number of gouges with bent shafts from the heat treating that I've purchased over the years would make sense.

[James Baldwin]

I want thank everybody for their input. I found out a lot. It turns out that I already had a Robert Sobly 5/8" bowl gouge in my collection. A good turner friend resharpened it to a 50* grind. I did order another gouge made with M42 steel. It is a 5/8" un-handled (I make my own aluminum handles) with a "U" grind from a small USA company. I also ordered some HSS steel blanks to make a couple of scrapers and a dovetail/tenon tool for my chuck. I've been using some scrapers made from files. They work ok but are brittle and I worry about them breaking so far I've been lucky but don't want to press it. I'll have wait to grind them though because my new CBN wheels won't be here for two weeks. They have the 180 grit but not the 600 grit. I got them from Woodturners Wonders.I do most of my initial turning with carbide then switch. Right now most of my wood (black walnut) is 40 to 50 years old and pretty hard. It wasn't taken care of when cut so it's cracked and has worm holes. Occasionally I get a usable piece. I have access to one of the local tree services yard. Just have to coordinate with him. He plows snow also so a lot depends on the weather and here in Idaho if you wait 5 minutes it will change.:) Jim

[roger wiegand]

Many of us do all of our gouge sharpening with a 180, so you'll be fine. Sounds like you're in good shape to make some shavings!

[John Kananis]

I'm curious why no one mentions the oneway gouges. True parabolic also.

[Neil Strong]

I'm curious why no one mentions the oneway gouges. True parabolic also.

John, I presume you are referring to the Mastercut BG. I don't have one, so can't comment on it from experience.

Oneway don't say it has a parabolic flute profile or show show a direct end-on view of it on their website. If you do have one of their Mastercuts, do you have a direct end-on view of its flute profile?

From the specs on their website, the Mastercuts are made from Powdered Metal M4 steel. Most would agree that would put it above cryo treated M2 and below PM M42 and V10 in terms of edge retention. It then comes down to price and finish. If you can buy an M42 or V10 unhandled BG for a similar price I would think they would be better value. But if much cheaper the Mastercut is worth consideration.

On the finish, that depends on how much time you are prepared to spend on fettling it vs paying for that to be already done. For example, the D-ways will come needing none, IME, whereas the Thompson made ones need some on their flutes.

The way I work is to sharpen up a bunch of bowl gouges that include most of the woodturning steel types and use each one until I'm no longer satisfied with the cut from that one and then move onto the next one until they are all in need of a touch up, which I then do again in batch mode. Working that way I don't notice a significant difference between them other than for finishing cuts. I like a freshly touched up M42 for finishing cuts but not the V15 which doesn't take such a fine edge, but will cut in a fashion long after all of my other gouges have given up.

If you have and only use one or two bowl gouge then the intervals between needing to sharpen accumulate and this may then become more of a factor in your choice of gouge.

So, in retrospect, if I could only have one bowl gouge I would probably go for an M42 with a true parabolic flute and I would use an Ellsworth grind on that. IME, it is the most versatile grind if you could only have one gouge.

When I could afford it, my second gouge would then be a V10 with a V flute, which would then become my workhorse. My third gouge would be a parabolic with a dedicated inside bottom grind. My fourth gouge would be a parabolic with a 45 or 40/40 grind in whatever steel.... etc, etc.

[John Kananis]

Neil, I'll be happy to snap a pic of the flute tomorrow while I'm in the shop (I have a 5/8). It's a true parabolic - I think Stuart Batty uses this particular gouge (could be wrong but pretty confident) for his 40/40. You're not saving any money by any stretch of the imagination though, they're expensive.

[Neil Strong]

Neil, I'll be happy to snap a pic of the flute tomorrow while I'm in the shop (I have a 5/8). It's a true parabolic...

That would be appreciated John.

[John Kananis]

Hey Neil, sorry this took an extra day. I was buried in the shop yesterday and I'm moving kind of slow since I injured myself. Regardless, here's the pic I promised.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=493190&d=1673410162

[Neil Strong]

Hey Neil, sorry this took an extra day. I was buried in the shop yesterday and I'm moving kind of slow since I injured myself. Regardless, here's the pic I promised.

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=493190&d=1673410162

Thanks John.

That photo of yours clearly shows that the Oneway Mastercut has a parabolic flute.

I'm about to start a thread specifically on flute profiles and I'll include the Oneway with the parabolics.

Sorry to hear about your injury.

[Dick Strauss]

I've owned some of the original early production Thompson tools for over a decade and never had the need to touch up any of the flutes. I think I own 8 Thompson tools ranging from large bowl gouges to small spindle gouges with a wide variety of flutes. I've been very satisfied with them.

A friend used to own a big roughing gouge (P&N I think) that had a large ridge in the bottom of the flute. Sadly enough, neither he manufacturer nor the retailer ever addressed the issue (he wanted it replaced).

[Neil Strong]

I've owned some of the original early production Thompson tools for over a decade and never had the need to touch up any of the flutes. I think I own 8 Thompson tools ranging from large bowl gouges to small spindle gouges with a wide variety of flutes. I've been very satisfied with them.

A friend used to own a big roughing gouge (P&N I think) that had a large ridge in the bottom of the flute. Sadly enough, neither he manufacturer nor the retailer ever addressed the issue (he wanted it replaced).

I have half a dozen of Doug's bowl gouges that go back 15yrs now and I spent some time back then grinding and honing the last inch or so of the flutes to my satisfaction. His flutes may come with a finer grind/polish on them since then. My preference is to have a finish on the flutes just a bit finer than the abrasion pattern left on the bevel as it comes off the grinder. Nowadays that is #360 CBN for me. IME, serrations left in the flute that are not as fine or finer than the bevel grind abrasion pattern result in premature edge failure. It can take some time to hone out a flute but at the slow rate we grind away steel freshening up an edge on the CBNs I'm unlikely to have to do that again any time soon, if at all.

I ran some test years ago to see if polishing the top edge on a scraper would improve the durability of the edge, which it did sufficiently to warrant the addition effort to do that. Again, once polished that doesn't need to be done again.

As for the old P&Ns, the flutes on them as received looking like a ploughed paddock and needed considerable work on them before they could be used, but they were so competitive price wise for us down here where they were made that we were more than happy with them. Besides being a well made M2 HSS they were available in an unhanded option at a lower price point, which I can't remember any of the other offerings doing at the time. I'm still using my heavy duty 1-1/4" P&N spindle roughing gouge 30yrs later, which I wouldn't let go for anything!

I recently purchased an old unused P&N 1" SRG that must have been made in a later production run as it had a very acceptable flute on it, so the P&Ns weren't made to the same standard of flute finish across their entire history. Their SRGs had solid milled tangs and as I recall they were the first to do that, which makes them far more substantial than the flimsy forged tangs that are prone to bending. Doug Thompson now makes a similar one with a milled tang.

[Kevin Jenness]

I've owned some of the original early production Thompson tools for over a decade and never had the need to touch up any of the flutes. I think I own 8 Thompson tools ranging from large bowl gouges to small spindle gouges with a wide variety of flutes. I've been very satisfied with them.

A friend used to own a big roughing gouge (P&N I think) that had a large ridge in the bottom of the flute. Sadly enough, neither he manufacturer nor the retailer ever addressed the issue (he wanted it replaced).

My several year old Thompson bowl gouge came with a pretty rough finish off the mill. I cleaned it up with a blue grinding point in a Dremel followed with a 600# hone. Not a big deal, though I would have been willing to pay a bit more for a polished flute from the "factory".

[Neil Strong]

From D-Way
"The flutes are a parabolic U shaped with tapered sides not a deep V. U shaped gouges are great for either finger nail or bottom feeder grinds. "

https://d-waytools.com/gouges/bowl-gouges/

Parabolic has become too loosely applied as a descriptor for some flute profiles, IMO, and this is leading to confusion. I have started a separate thread on this as follows... Bowl Gouge Flute Descriptors (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?301603-Bowl-Gouge-Flute-Descriptors&p=3235050#post3235050)

[Reed Gray]

If the Thompson and D Way gouges were placed side by side, and there was no color difference, I would have a hard time telling them apart. In use, same thing. If there is a slight arc in the wing, rather than straight, if you view it head on, the arc gives the appearance of a parabolic flute. Both are an 'open' V shape, which to me, means the bottom of the flute, rather than being a sharp V like the old Glaser gouges, which were more closed. The Glaser gouge was notorious for clogging up. I would be tempted to try the Carter and Son gouges, which do come unhandled, but for a few things. One, on their web site, they say the M42 will take a finer edge than the V10. In my years of using both tools, that is not true, at all.

robo hippy