IP Theft

[Rob Luter]

Like many of us, I recently received the Lee Valley winter catalog. As always there was lots of eye candy and my wallet is at risk. As I scanned the inside front cover I read a message from Rob Lee regarding theft, and IP theft in particular. It was a well written piece. My takeaway was that some of their fine designs had been shamelessly knocked off by competitors both domestic and foreign. While I'm not immersed in the hand tool marketplace, my perception has always been that they take a novel approach to their tool solutions and the copycats out there target others. Perhaps I'm just not seeing what is happening.

Thoughts?

[Nathan Johnson]

JKM router plane, perhaps?

[Keegan Shields]

The closest copies I've seen are from Qiangsheng. Their Luban planes look like exact knock-offs of LN (here (https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255801071202906.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000060.1.f cc47b55bKxPBx&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller&scm=1007.13339.291025.0&scm_id=1007.13339.291025.0&scm-url=1007.13339.291025.0&pvid=6a2e748e-9d93-4932-a2e5-fdc14db24fac&_t=gps-id%3ApcDetailBottomMoreThisSeller%2Cscm-url%3A1007.13339.291025.0%2Cpvid%3A6a2e748e-9d93-4932-a2e5-fdc14db24fac%2Ctpp_buckets%3A668%232846%238109%231 935&isseo=y&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000031670295727%2 2%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%223339%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21108.0%21108.0%21%21%21%21% 21%4021032fa616729258335363489ee50b%21120000316702 95727%21rec&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa&_randl_shipto=US)).

I remember reading that Qiangsheng also manufactures the WoodRiver planes for Woodcraft, among others.

Copying expired Stanley designs is certainly fair in my book, but outright copying of the design aesthetic (in this case LN) is just lazy and not something I would reward with my dollars.

I would think Veritas has as many or more design improvements as LN given the novel design of Veritas planes. Unfortunately, patents don't mean much overseas.

I am curious what event/product prompted the letter from Rob.

[Rob Luter]

This look encouraging!

492850

[Ron Selzer]

This look encouraging!

492850

Big defects it says!! How big are they I wonder? big enough not to function or cosmetic?

[Rob Luter]

Big defects it says!! How big are they I wonder? big enough not to function or cosmetic?

It will only cost $108 + Shipping to find out. Feeling lucky? :)

Hard pass for me. I'll continue to support the fine folks at Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen. Both have always exceed expectations.

[Keegan Shields]

But there's a $3 coupon!

[Jim Koepke]

Woodcraft did a poor copy of LN planes years ago and people still felt price was more important than quality. After many complaints, the Woodriver planes were eventually made to a higher standard. Tough many people still find price is more important than other aspects of the equation.

Taylor Tools is also known for "borrowing" designs from other makers and selling them to people who see price as an important factor.

LAP posted on this about eight years ago > https://blog.lostartpress.com/2015/02/22/on-rip-off-artists/ < Glenn Drake seems to have disappeared from the market since this post.


There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
John Ruskin

Being the frugal type myself, most of my tools are vintage tools that can do the job without the improvements of modern manufacturers. Many of my vintage tools do not have modern equivalents. My Goodell Pratt or Millers Falls eggbeater drills would be hard to find modern equivalents. Try finding a selection of modern braces for a set from 6" to 14".

My choice is to buy from the original maker or to buy used. It is hard to convince me to buy from someone who has copied someone else's hard work.

jtk

[Thomas McCurnin]

Tool designs, unless truly unique, have been copied without much legal redress for over a century. It is up to the owner of the patent to seek a restraining order and injunction to stop the importation of the goods at the docks. Armed with a proper order and shipper, the DHS can intercept international shipment and confiscate them. This happens all the time. The legal fees for filing the complaint, getting service of process (good luck with that) and obtaining a judgment and enforcing it would likely be $50,000.

This won't happen by itself, it takes the owner of the patent to take legal action or the customer to recognize counterfeits or copies and to decline to purchase them.

Some tool copies are very good and are a fraction of the price of domestically made tools. That's a big temptation for someone struggling to make ends meet.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

A novel invention can be patented. A novel design, that is not an invention is another story. Back in the late 1960's the Stiffel lamp company tried to copyright their lamp design. They also tried to trademark it, to prevent foreign manufacturers from copying the design. The court case was working it's way up through appeals when I took the copyright course and had not been decided yet. Frankly, I do not know the end result or if congress meddled in any way. I remember a cartoon in a Popular Science or other such magazine back in the late 1960's in which corporate exec is holding a small mechanical thing and tells his secretary, "Call Yu Chen and have him run off 4,500 copies." The guy that repairs my mowers has made a fair business out of fixing Chinese small engines. He claims the parts are usually so close to the equivalent Honda product that the parts are often interchangeable. He put a Chinese carburetor on my Honda generator and it works fine. There was a fellow named Garrett here on the east coast. He took a genuine Sharps rifle to Italy and told them to make 3,000 copies. He wanted the parts, screws etc, to be interchangeable with the original rifles. A Garrett Sharps reproduction is often worth more than a real Sharps to those who shoot them in matches. It is a shame when a knock off is total junk. I just don't know at what point it becomes an illegal counterfeit under US law.

As for Lee Valley. I am not aware that they actually make anything. Most is made for them by makers of same or similar products. I have found that the exact same item is sometimes cheaper if purchased from the maker. For instance the Veritas spoon bits.

[Chris Parks]

A novel invention can be patented.

Been there and done that but it was ripped off by someone with deeper pockets and no conscience. Patents are for companies with very deep pockets and I doubt the average WW retailer/manufacturer has the resources to defend one. I walked away and the product was sold worldwide and still is.

[Doug Garson]

As for Lee Valley. I am not aware that they actually make anything. Most is made for them by makers of same or similar products. I have found that the exact same item is sometimes cheaper if purchased from the maker. For instance the Veritas spoon bits.

Is Veritas owned by Lee Valley?



Based in Ottawa, Canada, Veritas Tools is a world leader in woodworking tool-design innovation, and has been the manufacturing arm of Lee Valley since 1985.

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I'm surprised that someone is actually surprised about this issue.
The Chinese army and political masters have been on a tear about technology transfer, and outright theft of trade secrets for over 2 decades. They and the North Koreans have dedicated a huge proportion of their intellectual capacity to stealing them.
Wonder why so many cell phones in China look like iPhone? Apple has to share technology with the local PRC - based competitors.
What about Tesla's tech details - bet you anything a deep dive would discover "sharing".
It's SO much easier to bring your rural population up to better living standards when you can steal instead of R&D capex.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Veritas may make some things, but their spoon bits had been made by a company in NYC. I always figured they were the "Sharper Image" of wood working tools. Scoped out novel products for their catalog and contracted for a special run with their name on it. The Veritas catalog to me is the equivalent of the Toys R US Christmas catalog when I was a kid.

[Rob Luter]

I'm not surprised per se. IP theft is a known thing. I've been in Product Design and Development my whole career and am listed as inventor on some patented products. I get it. My query had more to do with wondering what prompted the message. It implied less of a general condemnation of the practice and more of a "we've been knocked off and will cease to associate with those that sell those cloned products". At least that was my take, and I wondered out loud the who and when. Like I said in my original post, my perception has always been that they take a novel approach to their tool solutions and the copycats out there target others.

[Keegan Shields]

Most company supply chains involve contract manufactures for at least some of the parts.


The Soviet Union tried to this approach - stealing technology to supplement their inability to innovate. I recall it didn't work out well for them.

The US system is really good at supporting and producing innovation. Its one of the major advantages that gave us the edge in WW2, the Cold War, and today.

The fact that people from all over the world are willing to move to the US to start their businesses will continue to enable the US to outcompete the knock-off economies IMO.

The people I've met who grew up behind the Iron Curtain/China all describe the energy that goes into avoiding the rules under those systems. Innovation isn't protected or rewarded under those systems.

Ripping off other's ideas is a natural outgrowth of that outlook.

[Jim Becker]

Is Veritas owned by Lee Valley?




Yup. Veritas "is" Lee Valley. Like any company, they may subcontract some manufacturing because that can be efficient. They might even license something that exists if it's an exact fit for their needs. But in the end the brand belongs to Lee Valley, lock, stock and barrel.

[Keegan Shields]

Most company supply chains involve contract manufactures for at least some of the parts.


The Soviet Union tried to this approach - stealing technology to supplement their inability to innovate. I recall it didn't work out well for them.

The US system is really good at supporting and producing innovation. Its one of the major advantages that gave us the edge in WW2, the Cold War, and today.

The fact that people from all over the world are willing to move to the US to start their businesses will continue to enable the US to outcompete the knock-off economies IMO.

The people I've met who grew up behind the Iron Curtain/China all describe the energy that goes into avoiding the rules under those systems. Innovation isn't protected or rewarded under those systems.

Ripping off other's ideas is a natural outgrowth of that outlook.

[Bill Dufour]

My great grandfather and his brothers retired from a patent they invented to improve picket fence cutting. We think it was already in wide use . They just turned in a patent to secure a piece of backup wood under the good wood to reduce tearout. They either sold or rented the patent to a machine maker who paid enough for him to retire and buy a orange grove in California.
Bill D.

https://www.datamp.org/patents/search/advance.php?pn=164276&id=8333&set=1

[Stephen Tashiro]

Armed with a proper order and shipper, the DHS can intercept international shipment and confiscate them. This happens all the time.

Yes, "Armed with the proper order and shipper", but how would a patent holder (or the DHS) know about about a shipment of contraband goods?

Considering that many of the products sold on Amazon are are "knock-offs" coming from China, is it practical to intercept items shipped (in small quantities) by mail from other countries?

[Bill Dufour]

Around 1999 a USA maker sold welded Christmass tree stands through Home Depot. Home depot copied the patented design and had them made in China. Sold under the same sku number at Home depot within a few years.
Home depot settled the lawsuit by paying a big fat fee to the inventer.
Bill D

I could not find a good description of the lawsuit
http://cafc.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions-orders/04-1072.pdf

[Bill Dufour]

Oh No. a 2x4 is not exactly 2inches x4inches!
Bill D.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-homedepot-lumber/lawsuit-saying-home-depot-tricks-buyers-of-4x4-lumber-is-deep-sixed-idUSKCN1GO2TN

[Dick Strauss]

their metal product is just slightly smaller because of the metal shrinking during cooling. In other words, the company copying the design made a mold based on the original finished product. When the comapny copying the design cast the product with miolten metal, it cools, shrinks and ends up smaller than the original. I know that Alan Lacer and few other notable woodturners had this issue with some of their designs like ice cream scoop and bottle stopper kits where the knock-offs were smaller by the shrinkage factor.

An old patternmaker taught me about shrink rules (rulers with the shrink factor automatically added for different metals). I think I still have a set for about 10 different shrink factors.

[Dick Strauss]

Here's a chart if anyone is interested...

http://calculatoredge.com/charts/mshrinka.htm

[Rob Luter]

I used to have to deal with shrink factors in my first job out of college. The part was a molded vinyl seal made in an open mold. The mold was filled with plastisol and taken through a conveyor oven to cure. We had to design the molds to account for the thermal expansion of the aluminum mold pre-cure, and the shrinkage of the plastisol during curing and post cure. The pattern maker and foundry that cast the molds had to deal with his own shrink factors as well as draft angles. It was a complicated dance.

[Paul Saffold]

As Nathan said, it's Jonathan Katz-Moses copy of the Veritas large router plane. There is some chat about it on instagram, including a Lee Valley reference to the note.

[Keegan Shields]

Seems strange to me that a companies first product release is a router plane. I suppose there are a ton of smoothing plane options on the market. Still seems like an odd choice.

I'll be curious to see if it works out for him.

[John Stankus]

Seems strange to me that a companies first product release is a router plane. I suppose there are a ton of smoothing plane options on the market. Still seems like an odd choice.

I'll be curious to see if it works out for him.

It might be easier to cast the router plane body, than a smoother body.