Damaged Veritas Bench Chisel Handle

[JOEL MONGEON]

492686

A few days before Christmas I was using my favorite 3/4 bench chisel from Veritas to install a tail vise into my workbench. Right before I was about to finish for the day I felt my chisel kind of give out. I took a look and was really bummed out to see the corner of the handle was damaged.

I was alternating between using a joiners mallet and a Veritas Journeyman's Brass Mallet. I did not think I was hitting the handle very hard but maybe I clipped it with the edge of the brass mallet. I'm going to switch to the polyurethane mallet Lee Valley sells tomorrow.

Is this something I should be concerned about? Can I use a spokeshave, rasp and some sandpaper to shape new end to the handle just a little lower down? Or will this keep happening?

I really like the Veritas chisels that I have and would eventually like a whole set (when they actually become available to purchase). I am a little worried now that the maple handles aren't as robust as other manufacturers handles and it may be extremely hard to replace as I read they are epoxied into place (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Jim Koepke]

Joel, my vote is to try to repair the end of the handle with rasps and sandpaper. Then don't hit it with a metal mallet. Chisels for use with metal mallets tend to have hoops to prevent things like this from happening.

jtk

[Frederick Skelly]

Joel, my vote is to try to repair the end of the handle with rasps and sandpaper. Then don't hit it with a metal mallet. Chisels for use with metal mallets tend to have hoops to prevent things like this from happening.

jtk

+1 ........

[Tom M King]

Anyone who has never done similar to a chisel handle has never used one to amount to anything, or has a really bad memory.

I can tell you absolutely that I have never done that to one since only using Wood is Good mallets, and that includes 15 hours in a row over two days once with a 1-1/2" timber framing chisel that the hoop had been long since lost on. My elbow was unharmed too.

[Kris Cook]

I have a wooden mallet that I have had for 30 years, a round weighted mallet that I made on the lathe but my go to mallet is this hammer.



https://images.thdstatic.com/productImages/a09b60ed-0037-42fb-bac6-2916579fd35c/svn/estwing-specialty-hammers-dfh12-64_300.jpg

[Rafael Herrera]

That shape of handle is bound to get smashed and/or crumble over time. It'd benefit from a bit rounding at the top. Look up carving pattern handles.

492697

[Derek Cohen]

492686

A few days before Christmas I was using my favorite 3/4 bench chisel from Veritas to install a tail vise into my workbench. Right before I was about to finish for the day I felt my chisel kind of give out. I took a look and was really bummed out to see the corner of the handle was damaged.

I was alternating between using a joiners mallet and a Veritas Journeyman's Brass Mallet. I did not think I was hitting the handle very hard but maybe I clipped it with the edge of the brass mallet. I'm going to switch to the polyurethane mallet Lee Valley sells tomorrow.

Is this something I should be concerned about? Can I use a spokeshave, rasp and some sandpaper to shape new end to the handle just a little lower down? Or will this keep happening?

I really like the Veritas chisels that I have and would eventually like a whole set (when they actually become available to purchase). I am a little worried now that the maple handles aren't as robust as other manufacturers handles and it may be extremely hard to replace as I read they are epoxied into place (correct me if I'm wrong).

Joel, it happens. And especially with metal hammers. I only use metal ends on Japanese hooped chisels. For wooden handles, my mallets have UHMW faces.

I would rasp that down. If it was a nick or chip, you could fill with tinted epoxy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

I have a wooden mallet that I have had for 30 years, a round weighted mallet that I made on the lathe but my go to mallet is this hammer.



https://images.thdstatic.com/productImages/a09b60ed-0037-42fb-bac6-2916579fd35c/svn/estwing-specialty-hammers-dfh12-64_300.jpg
I use one of those on wooden wedges in molding planes.

[JOEL MONGEON]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I'll get my rasp out and see what I can do. I might have to look into some of the Mallets recommended here too.

Thanks again.

[Rob Luter]

To my eye it looks like it took a hit on the edge that resulted in localized damage. I use a metal hammer with my chisels most of the time. It's a shop made version with domed faces (see below). In terms of weight I'm sure it's similar to the LV brass mallet you use. That said, the geometry of the striking face generally prevents impact on the edge of the handle. Also, It's a tapper, not a basher. If I need to bring the heat, I use a Veritas Cabinet Makers Mallet (at bottom). I put a leather pad on one of the faces to soften the blow a bit.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48235805522_95551c7d97_b.jpg

https://assets.leevalley.com/Size3/10047/05E1501-cabinetmaker-s-mallet-f-01.jpg

[fritz eng]

Interesting that there are no responses with woodworkers using wood carvers mallet (cylindrical) for hammering end of chisels

[Mike Henderson]

Interesting that there are no responses with woodworkers using wood carvers mallet (cylindrical) for hammering end of chisels

That's what I use. I make the mallets myself.

Mike

[Reed Gray]

I made a mallet out of some maple baseball blanks I have, almost 3 inch diameter. It works fine. I do expect my chisels to mushroom a bit on the ends as I use them over the years. I have not made ferules for the ends of my chisels. I guess I could fashion a metal hammer, but don't see the need. I do have one 4 or so diameter piece of persimmon that came with a set of carving chisels I got, and most of the time, it is more than I need. I did concrete work for years and used to swing a 10 pound sledge all day long when doing set up work, so weight is not really an issue. I just like the medium weight wood mallets better.

robo hippy

[roger wiegand]

If it really bothers you, and especially if you want to use it a lot with a hammer just make a new handle and add a ferrule to the striking end. The Veritas handles aren't so great and are no big loss. I just made four new handles today for some great, gigantic, NOS German carving tools that were given to me by a friend. (Couldn't help myself from making the handles shiny-- it's just shellac and will wear away quickly), the ferrules are plumbing parts, a copper coupler on the striking end and a flare gas fitting for the front end with the nut turned off with a spindle gouge. I made these round, but you can incorporate flats on the sides if you prefer.

492763

Here's a picture showing the parts:

492764

[Derek Cohen]

Interesting that there are no responses with woodworkers using wood carvers mallet (cylindrical) for hammering end of chisels

For many years I used a round, carver’s mallet. I made them myself. What could be easier? I treated myself to a Veritas brass mallet and a resin-infused Blue Spruce carver’s mallet when they first came out …

https://i.postimg.cc/fzktRv7g/Mallets1-1.jpg

Both are beautifully made and well-balanced … for carving. It became increasingly evident to me that I preferred the more controlled directionality and force in a smaller, hammer-like head when I began using Japanese chisels some 25 years ago. A gennou head is small, and it concentrates it force. It is so beautifully balanced that there is so much more control over a strike than the larger carver’s mallet, where the round sides/face also run the risk of a glancing blow …

https://i.postimg.cc/WT0MG2mn/Hammer3.jpg

I would not use a gennou on a non-hooped chisel handle. The hard head will eventually mushroom or chip the handle end. This is going to affect the comfortability of the handle, since bench chisels are also pushed with the palm of the hand.

For this reason, my non-hooped chisels have their own dedicated mallets, and made in wood. Over the past several years+ I have also modified this. The problem with wooden mallets is that the faces can/do become chipped and rough, if only from indentations formed from striking. These transfer to chisel handles.

At first I used leather as an interface. However pounding would flatten it - back to square one- and it would peel off. Also, I found the softness cushioned the blow, which was taking the mallet in the wrong direction - I want more force from a smaller area.

I discovered UHMW. This is hard and will not deform, but also has some give and does not mar the handle ends. The downside is that it cannot be glued, and therefore needs to be nailed or screwed to the face. This works as long as the nails are driven well below the surface. I love the firmness of these face - good feedback, which one does not get from softer coverings on Wood is Good, which is also round and a carvers mallet.

The three that get used mostly: very heavy joiner’s mallet (32oz) used when morticing into extra hard wood; re-handled Veritas cabinetmaker’s mallet (20oz), used for morticing and most pounding; re-handled and re-headed Chester Toolworks (guess who made these so many years ago - was primarily a plane hammer, but now my go-to lighter-work chisel hammer. About 8oz) ….

https://i.postimg.cc/ds7CLvtG/Hammer7.jpg

Examples of the heads …

https://i.postimg.cc/BSb7gdsZ/UHMW.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

You can make your own brass hammers - I have a tutorial here (https://mikes-woodwork.com/BrassHammer.htm) (goes back to 2008). I used 7/8 inch brass stock and would use a bigger piece of stock if I did it again.

Mike

[JOEL MONGEON]

Thanks for all the great replies to my question. I found it great to hear what everyone uses for mallets and surprised at the variety out there. For now I bought Lee Valley's carvers mallet: https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/mallets/30003-carvers-mallet?item=27E0501
but I can see the cabinet makers mallet in my not so distant future with custom face like Derek mentioned.

As for my chisel, I finally got around to fixing it. Used a rasp and several grits of sandpaper and finished it off with a few coats of Osmo Polyx. I think it turned out well.
493274

And in case you were wondering what I was using my chisel for when I damaged the handle. I was installing my new HNT Gordon tail vise. I decided to make the cover for it with strips of ash, wenge and and padauk. I thought my bench could use a little bling :)
493275

[Jim Koepke]

I can see the cabinet makers mallet in my not so distant future with custom face like Derek mentioned.

Cabinet makers mallets are not difficult to make. Here are posts on three of mine and the fourth link is to a mallet turned into a meat tenderizer:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?161952

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?280200

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?288317

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?218732

Here are some of mine used over the years:

493277

This image was taken almost nine years ago.

The one on the lower right is a piece of oak off of a pallet with a cut handle. It came to me from the estate of a friend.

The one on the lower left is my first mallet. It was purchased in a hardware store that closed years ago.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

+1 ........



+2
If it doesn't have a hoop, don't hit it.

[Mike Henderson]

+2
If it doesn't have a hoop, don't hit it.

That's way too restrictive. None of my chisels have hoops - I even rehandled my Japanese chisels with western handles and I hit them all the time. I use a wooden mallet and have never noticed any real damage to the handles. I rarely have to really wack them, but have occasionally.

I don't like hoops because the handle doesn't fit my hand well when I'm not using a mallet - just pushing by hand. I find that western handles are much more comfortable in that situation.

Mike

[Edward Weber]

That's what I use. I make the mallets myself.

Mike
+1
I also use wood mallets, if necessary, on the chisels made for striking.
Simple to make

[Ernie Hobbs]

first, don't stress about it. If you are using your chisels and doing work with them, they'll get dinged up. It's OK. If they get too bad, you're a woodworker- you can make a new handle.

While I don't disagree with a lot of the advice, I think some might be overkill. I've been known to use a metal claw hammer (tapping with flat side, not the ends) with my carving chisels. As long as you are careful, it may leave a dent or two, but not a big deal.

[Edward Weber]

That's way too restrictive. None of my chisels have hoops - I even rehandled my Japanese chisels with western handles and I hit them all the time. I use a wooden mallet and have never noticed any real damage to the handles. I rarely have to really wack them, but have occasionally.

I don't like hoops because the handle doesn't fit my hand well when I'm not using a mallet - just pushing by hand. I find that western handles are much more comfortable in that situation.

Mike

Very simply, it's a personal method of work.
Hoops keep handles from splitting, I just don't strike chisels without them if I can at all help it
On most of my chisels, I turn my own handles to fit my hands and the chisels' intended purpose. I attach hoops to all of them and ferrules if they're necessary.

[Jim Koepke]

Very simply, it's a personal method of work.
Hoops keep handles from splitting, I just don't strike chisels without them if I can at all help it
On most of my chisels, I turn my own handles to fit my hands and the chisels' intended purpose. I attach hoops to all of them and ferrules if they're necessary.

Edward, I agree with what you posted. Some of my paring chisels might get tapped lightly as the situation calls for it.

My stouter chisels tend to have handles made of stouter wood and can take a mighty thumping.

493357

This is a heavy 1" chisel with an ash handle. It can take a beating and keep on eating wood.

Even my chisels with hoops do not get hit with steel.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

Edward, I agree with what you posted. Some of my paring chisels might get tapped lightly as the situation calls for it.

My stouter chisels tend to have handles made of stouter wood and can take a mighty thumping.

493357

This is a heavy 1" chisel with an ash handle. It can take a beating and keep on eating wood.

Even my chisels with hoops do not get hit with steel.

jtk

Thanks Jim

I have used a steel hammer in the past and IMO the damage done to the chisel just isn't worth it.
I simply use a larger mallet, something like a beetle, if I really need to persuade something or push through a stubborn cut, like corner chiseling.
Just a couple of different chisels I've put handles on. The chisel awaiting a handle is 1.25"
493358

[Mike Brady]

The "Wood Is Good" urethane mallets are excellent, and have never damaged any chisel hit by them. My Lie-Nielsen chisels look like the day I got them. What I would never use is any metal-faced hammer.

[JOEL MONGEON]

Thanks to all those who said I should go make a mallet.
That's just what I did this week with some scrap walnut and ash.
Just in time for my new 1" Veritas chisel that arrived yesterday.
This is much smaller than the beech mallet I was using and smaller than the Urethane mallet I picked up a few weeks ago. I've not used it yet but looking forward to trying it out.
494756

[Jim Koepke]

Nice looking mallet Joel.

It looks like it will be good for light thumping when cutting dovetails. For those deep mortises you may want to make one with a longer handle to create more force at the head.

jtk

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I have a set and after trying i no longer use the brass mallet on them. The handles ding up pretty easily

[Ed Mitchell]

492686

A few days before Christmas I was using my favorite 3/4 bench chisel from Veritas to install a tail vise into my workbench. Right before I was about to finish for the day I felt my chisel kind of give out. I took a look and was really bummed out to see the corner of the handle was damaged.

I was alternating between using a joiners mallet and a Veritas Journeyman's Brass Mallet. I did not think I was hitting the handle very hard but maybe I clipped it with the edge of the brass mallet. I'm going to switch to the polyurethane mallet Lee Valley sells tomorrow.

Is this something I should be concerned about? Can I use a spokeshave, rasp and some sandpaper to shape new end to the handle just a little lower down? Or will this keep happening?

I really like the Veritas chisels that I have and would eventually like a whole set (when they actually become available to purchase). I am a little worried now that the maple handles aren't as robust as other manufacturers handles and it may be extremely hard to replace as I read they are epoxied into place (correct me if I'm wrong).

There was a bit of an issue with the 1st-gen Veritas torrified maple handles. Maple is not the ideal wood to put through the torrefaction process, and Veritas had to tweak their process after some failures in the 1st-gen handles. Shannon Rogers talked about this in his Lumber Industry update podcast if you want more detail. Maybe yours is 1st gen?

Anyways, a metal hammer on a non-hooped chisel is a bit of a tough ask on the chisel handle, esp when it has the shape they've chosen. Not a huge deal, but as you found out, maybe not ideal, so you fix and move on -- again, not a huge deal. They're still among the best chisels on the market.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Yeah, well....... Not many whacks with my Japanese hammer, and a slab sheared off the side of my LV 1/2" butt chisel. Then continued for not many more whacks and the end destructed entirely. Got a hoop from somewhere [forget] and fitted it. All good. Whack away.

The torrefied maple did seem a bit fragile, but that's not on them - on me. Only LV chisel I have. Only one I will have - don't want to deal with that issue - again, it's on me, not on them.

At the same time - endless whacks, same hammer, on my L-N "Maine-harvested Hornbeam" bench [2 of them] and mortise [3 of them] have dented the handle ends, but no more. Been at these for long, long time. My 10+ oak hooped Japanese are, like, indestructible over a few decades.

Again - it is what it is. I wanted to try the butt chisel style. It does what I had hoped for, and I'm satisfied with the money I spent. I'm fine. I learned.

Yeah, yeah - don't bother to say it - shoulda used a wooden mallet. Had 2, sold them, the heck with that.

495745

[JOEL MONGEON]

It happened again. Bummer
505436
Since my last post I bought a 1" PMV 11 chisel from Lee Valley. I've only ever used it with my wooden mallet but had another sad incident today.
I'm making an outdoor natural edge bench out of a walnut slab and I'm in the process of fitting it over a large armor stone slab. After removing some material I was about to put everything away for the day when I noticed the handle on my 1" chisel completely split.
I'll take this one back to Lee Valley and maybe give Narex chisels a try next. It's a bummer as I really like the feel of these but what's the point if I can't use them. Are they only for final finessing whithout a mallet?

[Edward Weber]

I don't want to sound like a broken record BUT
You're striking a tanged chisel with no hoop or ferrule. I honestly would be surprised if it didn't crack.
With every strike you're driving the handle over the tang and into the shoulder. If there is no hoop and/or ferrule to restrain the wood, it will split.
I think you might want to try a different style of chisel than the one you are currently using.
Something with a hoop, like a framing chisel, possibly a socket style.
Just suggestions for you to consider.
Good luck

[Phil Gaudio]

I don't want to sound like a broken record BUT
You're striking a tanged chisel with no hoop or ferrule. I honestly would be surprised if it didn't crack.
With every strike you're driving the handle over the tang and into the shoulder. If there is no hoop and/or ferrule to restrain the wood, it will split.
I think you might want to try a different style of chisel than the one you are currently using.
Something with a hoop, like a framing chisel, possibly a socket style.
Just suggestions for you to consider.
Good luck

Edward: that was my thought exactly until I looked into how these chisels are assembled. It seems to incorporate both a tang and a socket. That detail that looks like a ferule is actually a socket that transfers the force from the handle to a shoulder at the top of the blade outboard of the tang. It would seem to me that the only way that you would get handle splitting is if the hole for the tang were too short, allowing the ferule to travel upward in the handle, or if the fit between the socket and handle was too loose, again allowing the tang to travel into the handle. I base this on a quick glance at my Veritas mortise chisel: assume same construction? Phil

[Mike Henderson]

I teach a class on dovetails and use the Lee Valley chisels in the class. Also some Lie Nielsen chisels that I made handles for. The students wack the heck out of them them with wooden mallets that I provide. Never had a Lee Valley chisel handle problem.

Mike

[The handle attachment method used on the Veritas chisels is essentially the same as Japanese chisels.]

[JOEL MONGEON]

I don't want to sound like a broken record BUT


No worries Edward. There were 2 possible issues that were suggested. One was using a brass mallet on a wooden handle and the other was the handle itself. I decided to try a wooden mallet as suggested and see if that made things better. After this morning I think you are right and I'll be looking at different chisels with a ferrule or hoop.
Thanks

[Jim Koepke]

It happened again. Bummer
505436
Since my last post I bought a 1" PMV 11 chisel from Lee Valley. I've only ever used it with my wooden mallet but had another sad incident today.
I'm making an outdoor natural edge bench out of a walnut slab and I'm in the process of fitting it over a large armor stone slab. After removing some material I was about to put everything away for the day when I noticed the handle on my 1" chisel completely split.
I'll take this one back to Lee Valley and maybe give Narex chisels a try next. It's a bummer as I really like the feel of these but what's the point if I can't use them. Are they only for final finessing whithout a mallet?

Trying to determine the cause without being where it happened when it happened is fraught with so many unknowns.

This is possibly one of the better reasons why there are multiple types of chisels in my shop.

For heavy stock removal, like mortising or whacking out unwanted wood, there are heavier chisels.

505440

Notice the waste around the work. Most of it is like thick shavings, only a few fat chunks were taken out to start the mortise. The work can go quicker with two or three thin shavings than trying to pound one's way through fat 1/4 inch shavings.

The handle is ash on this 3/4" chisel, if my memory is working. Ash can take a good whacking.

The bevel on my chisels that shall be whacked is also a bit steeper than the bevel on my paring chisels.

505441

If my paring chisels are ever struck with a mallet, it is a light tap, not a heavy whack.

Also if a chisel needs a heavy whack to cut, it may be the edge isn't sharp or the bevel angle may be too steep.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

Edward: that was my thought exactly until I looked into how these chisels are assembled. It seems to incorporate both a tang and a socket. That detail that looks like a ferule is actually a socket that transfers the force from the handle to a shoulder at the top of the blade outboard of the tang. It would seem to me that the only way that you would get handle splitting is if the hole for the tang were too short, allowing the ferule to travel upward in the handle, or if the fit between the socket and handle was too loose, again allowing the tang to travel into the handle. I base this on a quick glance at my Veritas mortise chisel: assume same construction? Phil

Thanks
So if they are a hybrid as you mentioned, I would agree. I have made handles like you describe but have not had that issue.

There seems to been something in this equation that is missing. I can't understand the continued breaking of the handles. There is either a quality issue, a material issue or an operator issue.
I hope the OP keeps us in the loop, I would like to know what's really going on.

[Derek Cohen]

All my non-hooped chisel handles are only struck with a mallet with UHMW on the face ...

https://i.postimg.cc/ds7CLvtG/Hammer7.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Steel faces are only used on hooped handles.

https://i.postimg.cc/WT0MG2mn/Hammer3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Never damaged a handle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Wilkins]

Or you’re trying to take too large a bite with each blow.

[JOEL MONGEON]

Thanks for the replies. I'd like to know what's going on as well. I still consider myself a beginner so I imagine it is something I am doing.

When I first got the chisel I flattened the back to a mirror finish and had just sharpened it before starting out yesterday. It still can cut walnut end grain nicely without effort. Although I realize it can always be sharper.
505489

I ended up grabbing my Sorby 1.5" framing chisel and IBC 1" bench chisel to continue my work. They both cut fine without issue.

505490

I was using the chisel outside yesterday and it rained overnight so the chips have swollen a bit but I picked some up and put them next to the chips I was cutting out with other chisels. Maybe Tony is right and I'm still taking too large of a bite with each blow.

505491

I went back to the Lee Valley page for this chisel and from the description it did not seem like their bench chisels are only for fine work. They mention the steel can handle heavy chopping cuts and the handles can resist chipping from glancing mallet blows. I'll see if I can replace the chisel and if I can I'll relegate the Veritas chisels to fine work and maybe pick up another framing chisel or Narex chisel for rougher work.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/chisels/bench/69847-veritas-pm-v11-bench-chisels

"This metal’s micro-structure makes it extremely durable, so it can withstand the impact of heavy chopping cuts without chipping or deforming as readily as other tool steels, even at bevel angles as low as 20°. Highly wear resistant, the edge typically lasts at least twice as long in use as an A2 blade before it needs sharpening"

"The blade and handle are connected with a tang and a socket-like stainless-steel ferrule that seats directly onto the shoulder of the blade. Flats on the handle prevent the chisel from rolling. Each chisel is superbly balanced, with the center of gravity close to the tang/socket connection."

"The hard maple handle has been torrefied, a heating process that changes the structure of the wood at the cellular level, stabilizing it against swelling and shrinkage caused by humidity changes. Contoured to fit the hand nicely, the handle has a domed end that resists chipping from glancing mallet blows."

Thanks

[JOEL MONGEON]

I guess what I'm asking is:
Am I an idiot for using a mallet with these chisels and I can use this as an expensive learning experience.
Or should I bring the chisel back to Lee Valley and see if I can get a refund or replacement?

[Derek Cohen]

Joel, it is a bit of both: I would contact LV, and I'm sure that they will replace the handle without a quibble. The handles should be able to manage a "reasonable" amount of wacking (as I mentioned above, I do not hit mine with steel). I will point out that I wack all my bench chisel handles - they are designed for this. However, those starting out may be unreasonable in how they determine what is reasonable wacking.

There is no doubt that some handles are more durable than others. However, a bench chisel is more than just a handle. It has a blade, balance and comfort, weight, steel type.

I have two sets of Veritas chisels: O1 with Maple (and a couple of pre-production with Bubinga) handles...

https://i.postimg.cc/4NMPYxX5/8.jpg

Also PM-V11 chisels with custom Ebony handles - which should not be as tough as the Maple, but all are wacked with mallets equally. Plus I have Blue Spruce dovetail chisels with African Blackwood handles. As I mentioned earlier, I have never damaged a chisel handle (and I do a fair amount of chopping with them).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

"The hard maple handle has been torrefied, a heating process that changes the structure of the wood at the cellular level, stabilizing it against swelling and shrinkage caused by humidity changes. Contoured to fit the hand nicely, the handle has a domed end that resists chipping from glancing mallet blows."

Thanks
IMO, Torrifying a chisel handle is somewhat foolish, I can't really see any benefit.
While it may stabilize the wood against humidity changes, it also makes it more brittle. Not a quality you want on a handle. Especially IF it's designed to be struck.

[Jim Koepke]

The handles on my egg pan and spatulas have been torrefied by accidentally leaving them in the oven.

jtk

[JOEL MONGEON]

I hear the food tastes way better with torrefied utensils.

[Rafael Herrera]

I guess what I'm asking is:
Am I an idiot for using a mallet with these chisels and I can use this as an expensive learning experience.
Or should I bring the chisel back to Lee Valley and see if I can get a refund or replacement?

I don't think so, you probably got a chisel with a mediocre design. A wooden mallet would not strike the handle as sharply as a metal one. The handle should not have split unless there is something wrong with the handle fitting.

I don't own one of these LV chisels, but from the picture it looks like it's a tanged chisel. It's not clear where or how the tang shoulder contacts the handle. It's not clear what the function of that conical sleeve is. Can you disassemble the chisel and lay out the parts?

I've a set of screwdrivers, the design is similar, but obviously they're not intended to be struck. The screw driver tang is embedded into the handle. The sleeve is decorative.

I wonder how the chisel is mated to the handle in your case. If there is no shoulder, it will keep digging into the handle and split. If that sleeve is somehow acting as a socket and preventing the tang from digging in, that design might work. If that failed, that could be the cause of your handle splitting. The Blue Spruce chisels look to have a similar design. It doesn't look like a robust design.

In any case, handles break, you just need to get a new one.

Rafael

505672

[Derek Cohen]

I don't think so, you probably got a chisel with a mediocre design. A wooden mallet would not strike the handle as sharply as a metal one. The handle should not have split unless there is something wrong with the handle fitting.

I don't own one of these LV chisels, but from the picture it looks like it's a tanged chisel. It's not clear where or how the tang shoulder contacts the handle. It's not clear what the function of that conical sleeve is. Can you disassemble the chisel and lay out the parts?

I've a set of screwdrivers, the design is similar, but obviously they're not intended to be struck. The screw driver tang is embedded into the handle. The sleeve is decorative.

I wonder how the chisel is mated to the handle in your case. If there is no shoulder, it will keep digging into the handle and split. If that sleeve is somehow acting as a socket and preventing the tang from digging in, that design might work. If that failed, that could be the cause of your handle splitting. The Blue Spruce chisels look to have a similar design. It doesn't look like a robust design.

In any case, handles break, you just need to get a new one.

Rafael

505672


Sorry Raphael, but your screwdriver comparison does not apply here. The connection between the handle and the blade on these Veritas chisels is identical to that of a Japanese bench chisel (oire nomi) - they use a combination of tang and socket. This is as strong as they get.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasChiselReview_html_22f5784a.jpg


For strength between blade and handle, the design of these chisels is top notch. Only Japanese chisels are comparable.

Where the issue lies is in the wood used for the handle. I am inclined to believe that the handles mentioned are rogue and not typical of these handles generally. Not only have I not experienced anything remotely like this using them over the course of 11 years, but there would have been reports by the thousands of other miffed users in the media by now.

Here is a comparison of chisels chopping dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/FourChiselSteelsCompared.html The take away here is that all these non-hooped handles survived without a dent, which is a reflection of method and not simply handle type.

Send the chisels back to Lee Valley. They take their customers very seriously.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

And yet the OP's chisel handle broke in use with a mallet.

It'd be interesting to see the broken handle. If the tang bottomed and the handle sunk deeper into the socket as it was struck, I can see it breaking.

Rafael

[Cameron Wood]

And yet the OP's chisel handle broke in use with a mallet.

It'd be interesting to see the broken handle. If the tang bottomed and the handle sunk deeper into the socket as it was struck, I can see it breaking.

Rafael



Unless I'm missing something, the OP's chisel handle didn't break, it just got a ding that calls for a couple of strokes with a knife or file, hardly a refund, or four pages of discussion.

[Rafael Herrera]

We're talking about a later post.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?301379-Damaged-Veritas-Bench-Chisel-Handle&p=3268015#post3268015

[Jim Koepke]

Unless I'm missing something, the OP's chisel handle didn't break, it just got a ding that calls for a couple of strokes with a knife or file, hardly a refund, or four pages of discussion.

You may have missed post #32. Joel posted an image of his new 1" chisel with a split handle.

My question for Joel would be, what angel is the bevel on his chisel. In the images Joel posted, it looks rather steep. This combined with the thickness of the wood being removed can put a lot of stress on a chisel. Technique can also change the formula. Removing a large area of waste with just a chisel is sometime better done with a light process of striking a chisel once and stepping it forward to be struck once again. Then the chips can be removed with a paring stroke and started again. This can actually be faster than trying to remove a large amount of wood with each mallet blow.

I do not know of a way to accurately determine how hard the mallet is hitting his chisel. My whacking a chisel might be quite different than Joel's chisel whacking. On the other hand, almost all of my chisels are socket chisels so there is no interaction between the tang and the handle.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

IMNSHO,
1.The OP, or anyone should not (as common practice) strike none hooped chisels.
2. There is no benefit to torrifying the handle, This leaves the handle too brittle and provides no cushioning from striking. If it will occasionally be struck, breaking rule #1 and possibly the handle, something has to give.
3. Many chisels have this hybrid or belt and suspenders type of connection, it is quite strong but as with any connection, it must be fitted properly. The Veritas that Derek pictured has a tapered ferrule, acting as a socket. Other brands use a straight sided ferrule and a leather washer is placed between the handle and the shoulder of the bolster. This provides cushioning for the occasional strike.
4. Manufacturers have bad runs. This could just be a matter of a small batch of over torrified handles or improper fitting of some element in the handle connection.
4. ANY handle can be broken it abused or simply used incorrectly. If repeated striking is necessary, use the appropriate chisel with a hoop.

The OP's breakage could be one or some combination all of these things, we may never know.

[Rafael Herrera]

IMNSHO,
1.The OP, or anyone should not (as common practice) strike none hooped chisels.


I'm not sure how you have reached that conclusion. I routinely strike my bench chisels with a wooden or plastic mallet.

When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work. See page 20 in the catalog linked below.

Hooped bench chisels, excluding the Japanese ones, are rather coarse looking and I don't like them for bench work.

http://www.hansbrunnertools.com/Mathiesoncat33plusreduced.pdf

Rafael

[Edward Weber]

I'm not sure how you have reached that conclusion. I routinely strike my bench chisels with a wooden or plastic mallet.

When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work. See page 20 in the catalog linked below.

Hooped bench chisels, excluding the Japanese ones, are rather coarse looking and I don't like them for bench work.

http://www.hansbrunnertools.com/Mathiesoncat33plusreduced.pdf

Rafael
What you strike your chisels with is up to you. If you have to do it, which we all do from time to time, use something other than steel.

"When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work"
So what's your point? Hooped chisels are better designed for work that requires them being repeatedly struck. Even the old chisels that did not have a metal hoop, often have a leather hoop/cap to cushion the blow.

I'll try to answer your question with a question of my own.
What is the purpose of a hoop?

Some bench chisels are better designed to be struck than others.

[Cameron Wood]

We're talking about a later post.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?301379-Damaged-Veritas-Bench-Chisel-Handle&p=3268015#post3268015

OK then, carry on. Just a bad piece of wood, my guess.

[JOEL MONGEON]

I was going to hold off on updating until later this week. I reached out to Lee Valley and they have shipped me a replacement which should arrive on Wednesday. So I'm very pleased with that. I think going forward I'll save my LV chisels for light/delicate work. I really do enjoy the feel and balance of these chisels. They feel extremely good in my hands so I'll keep using them but will search for a more robust set for rougher work.

Here are a few more pictures for you to see what happened. A close of up of the base of the chisel shows not just one split but a few smaller ones developing. So maybe it is the torrefied wood itself. Or I was just hitting it too hard with my wooden mallet. The bevel angle is supposed to be 25 degree. I have not measured it but don't see why it wouldn't be 25.

I don't want to try and split the handle apart for more forensic work as LV wants the chisel back after I receive my replacement.

Thanks for all the comments, I still have a ton to learn.

505697
505698
505699

[Rafael Herrera]

What you strike your chisels with is up to you. If you have to do it, which we all do from time to time, use something other than steel.

"When looking at old catalogs, the hooped chisels were those for particularly heavy duty work"
So what's your point? Hooped chisels are better designed for work that requires them being repeatedly struck. Even the old chisels that did not have a metal hoop, often have a leather hoop/cap to cushion the blow.

I'll try to answer your question with a question of my own.
What is the purpose of a hoop?

Some bench chisels are better designed to be struck than others.

Hitting a bench chisel with a hammer, unless it's metal capped or hooped, is a terrible practice.

Observing what was offered by manufacturers of the past, when these tools were more widely used, can be give us clues as to what was the state of the art at the time.

As can be noted in the catalog and any other catalog you can find online, the hoops were reserved for heavy duty chisels.

Here's another reference, https://williammarplesandsons.com/chisels/, none of their handles had leather caps. They did offer hooped handles, though.

I may be mistaken, but the only handles I've seen with leather caps are the Stanley 7xx types. If you ask me, more of a gimmick than an improvement.

Heavy malleting will eventually crush the fibers of any handle, the hoop will mitigate that.

Rafael

[Rafael Herrera]

... I think going forward I'll save my LV chisels for light/delicate work. I really do enjoy the feel and balance of these chisels. They feel extremely good in my hands so I'll keep using them but will search for a more robust set for rougher work.

Here are a few more pictures for you to see what happened. A close of up of the base of the chisel shows not just one split but a few smaller ones developing. So maybe it is the torrefied wood itself. Or I was just hitting it too hard with my wooden mallet. The bevel angle is supposed to be 25 degree. I have not measured it but don't see why it wouldn't be 25.

I don't want to try and split the handle apart for more forensic work as LV wants the chisel back after I receive my replacement.

505697


It does look like the handle broke at the top. There goes my theory.

It certainly is your choice what tools you want to use, try not to be swayed by gimmicky features.


Torrefaction is a thermo-chemical process that reduces the moisture content of wood and transforms it into a brittle, char-type material. The thermo-chemical process can reduce the mass of wood by 20-30% resulting in a denser, higher-valued product that can be transported more economically than traditional wood chips.
https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/ja/2010/ja_2010_mitchell_001.pdf

The handle is extra dry, not that advantageous if you're malleting it hard.

Rafael

[Jim Koepke]

I may be mistaken, but the only handles I've seen with leather caps are the Stanley 7xx types. If you ask me, more of a gimmick than an improvement.

A lot of chisels with other branding have come my way with leather caps.

505708

Craftsman chisels are the only ones for which an image can be found at the moment.

The leather often had a hole in the center and was fitted over a dowel. This tended to keep the wood from mushrooming at the top of the chisel.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

A lot of chisels with other branding have come my way with leather caps.

Craftsman chisels are the only ones for which an image can be found at the moment.

The leather often had a hole in the center and was fitted over a dowel. This tended to keep the wood from mushrooming at the top of the chisel.


Yeah, those look like their chrome plated offerings. I've a couple of those chisels, but no handles. At some point Craftsman's chisels were made by Greenlee, apparently good quality.

The leather caps are like washers in the Stanley handles, I've a few of those with original handles. That seems to be the design.

I've plenty of older chisels with no leather cap that appear to have seen plenty of use, mushrooming is not an issue I've noted.

Rafael

[Edward Weber]

Hitting a bench chisel with a hammer, unless it's metal capped or hooped, is a terrible practice.

Observing what was offered by manufacturers of the past, when these tools were more widely used, can be give us clues as to what was the state of the art at the time.

As can be noted in the catalog and any other catalog you can find online, the hoops were reserved for heavy duty chisels.

Here's another reference, https://williammarplesandsons.com/chisels/, none of their handles had leather caps. They did offer hooped handles, though.

I may be mistaken, but the only handles I've seen with leather caps are the Stanley 7xx types. If you ask me, more of a gimmick than an improvement.

Heavy malleting will eventually crush the fibers of any handle, the hoop will mitigate that.

Rafael

So in your opinion, is the leather cap A. state of the art for the time
OR B. more of a gimmick than an improvement?
You seem to be contradicting yourself.
From your link.
505714
Leather tipped handles


I have dozens of chisels for different manufacturers with leather caps, this was common 100 years ago.
505711505712505713

As to the OP's chisel.
From Veritas;
"Care and Maintenance
While these chisels have been made as robust as possible, it should still be understood that
the narrow blades are relatively fragile. These chisels should not be used for levering waste
out of a joint. Also, when used for chopping work, a lighter mallet should be used"

This is what I've been saying all along.

[John Lanciani]

505697


This didn't happen with one mallet blow, that handle gave you fair warning well before it gave up the ghost. This isn't a Lee Valley problem, it is user error.

[Jim Koepke]

This didn't happen with one mallet blow, that handle gave you fair warning well before it gave up the ghost. This isn't a Lee Valley problem, it is user error.

One thing that avails a user of some great chisels at bargain prices (at least it used to) is being able to make your own handles.

In my case an old hand injury makes it more comfortable to use handles of my own making.

It also allows one to make handles out of strong woods or whatever exotic wood they may choose.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

So in your opinion, is the leather cap A. state of the art for the time
OR B. more of a gimmick than an improvement?
You seem to be contradicting yourself.
From your link.
505714
Leather tipped handles


That page is from their 1954 catalog. Rather late in the game. The page with their handle models is from 1903.

I'm familiar with the Stanley 7xx chisels, which came with leather capped handles. I looked at the Stanley catalogs over time. They released their steel capped "everlasting" chisels in 1911, there are other chisels models released over time, but I don't see the 7xx models before the catalog from 1940. Was it around 1940 when they were released?

I also found leather capped handles in a Pexto catalog from 1920, you paid extra for the leather capped handles.



I have dozens of chisels for different manufacturers with leather caps, this was common 100 years ago.
505711505712505713


For at least all of the 18th and 19th century they got along fine without adding leather caps. They seem to have been offered commercially beginning in the early 20th century.

I'm not denying these handles existed, but your assertion that those chisels without hoops were fitted with leather caps is not accurate. There were plenty of chisels without them. Was it a gimmick? probably, 19th century chisels don't have them.

Rafael

[JOEL MONGEON]

when used for chopping work, a lighter mallet should be used"


This made me curious, so I took my kitchen scales to weigh all of my mallets.

My Veritas Journeyman's brass Mallet: 11.4oz
My walnut Mallet I made: 13.6oz
Carpenter's Mallet: 1lb 1.1oz
Carver's Mallet: 1lb 7.8oz

Out of all 4 mallets I own it's the 2 lightest ones that damaged my handles :)

I digress, I think John was right. Wrong tool for the task.

When I return the damaged Veritas chisel I'll pick up a few other chisels from other manufacturers to try out. In particular I'm looking at the standard Narex bench chisels and the Hirsch firmer chisels. They both have hooped handles.

[Cameron Wood]

Some chisels are designed to take a beating and last a long time.

505717

[Reed Gray]

I watched some video about the Japanese chisels and setting one up. The worker took the top ring/ferule off of the chisel, deepened the tenon 1/8 inch or so, put the ring back on and peened the exposed part of the tenon over the top of the ring. You could glue the split pieces together again. I found out you can use a compressor, on light pressure, to blow the glue all the way through the split. Some times you can just blow it through with your own lung power.

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

That page is from their 1954 catalog. Rather late in the game. The page with their handle models is from 1903.

I'm familiar with the Stanley 7xx chisels, which came with leather capped handles. I looked at the Stanley catalogs over time. They released their steel capped "everlasting" chisels in 1911, there are other chisels models released over time, but I don't see the 7xx models before the catalog from 1940. Was it around 1940 when they were released?

I also found leather capped handles in a Pexto catalog from 1920, you paid extra for the leather capped handles.



For at least all of the 18th and 19th century they got along fine without adding leather caps. They seem to have been offered commercially beginning in the early 20th century.

I'm not denying these handles existed, but your assertion that those chisels without hoops were fitted with leather caps is not accurate. There were plenty of chisels without them. Was it a gimmick? probably, 19th century chisels don't have them.

Rafael
I never said it was an either/or type of situation,
What I said was;
"Even the old chisels that did not have a metal hoop, often have a leather hoop/cap to cushion the blow."

I was simply pointing out, that there was often a desire and then a method of protecting the handles from damage. I'm well aware that there are chisels with no hoops or other accessories on them.
A handle with a leather cap is much less likely to take damage when struck than one without.

In my collection, out of all the old chisel handles that survived, the ones with leather caps outnumber the handles without, by far.
Not scientific just personal observation.

So your comment "For at least all of the 18th and 19th century they got along fine without adding leather caps."
I'm sure they did, when a handle split or broke, they replaced it, just as I would.
At some point, one of the old manufacturers decided to do something in a effort to try and keep their handles from splitting. Leather caps, hoops, plastics and so on.

There is no way to tell how much use a handle in good condition has had over it's lifetime. The only thing you can tell of a handle is if it's worn, abused or broken.
The OP's handle proves this

[Jim Koepke]

These are some old chisel handles that ended up being sold on ebay.

505739

The leather looks to perform a function similar to a metal hoop. The dowel in the center appears mushroomed on some of these.

One of my oldest chisels is a mortise chisel. It had a leather washer between the wood and the disk bolster.

505740

The right up on this chisel follows:

The chisel has a cutting edge of 3/8" and is stamped NEWBOULD, a mark used by Samuel Newbould. He is listed as an "edgetool maker" on Sheffield Moor in the Directory of Sheffield for 1787. This example has two early features. The bolster where the blade enters the handle is not the integral, faceted one that is usual; instead, there is a disk that the blade passes through and a very heavy, hand forged ferrule behind it (see photo). The disk is like that on a Samurai sword. The other early feature is that the chisel has a steel edge welded to an iron backbone, much like early axes. The steel will hold an edge much longer than iron, but wrought iron is tougher and less brittle for the body of a tool. The line between the steel and iron can be seen along the edge of the NEWBOULD blade (see photo).

jtk

[JOEL MONGEON]

Just thought I would wrap up this thread with an update.

My 1" Veritas replacement chisel came in the mail yesterday. So this morning I brought the damaged one back to Lee Valley and came home with a medley of chisels to try out.

505782

I'll keep the Veritas nice and sharp but for delicate work and will sharpen my new friends and continue working on my outdoor bench with them.

Thanks for all the replies.

[Warren Mickley]

I talked to some Lee Valley people when these chisels were being designed a dozen years ago. I thought the handles would be brittle and I told them so. I’m surprised there haven’t been more problems. Traditional woods are beech, ash, and hornbeam.

We have used chisels with no hoops for centuries. In the 18th century hoops were found on carpenter chisels. There is no problem using a 30 ounce mallet on a chisel with no hoop.

Roubo shows a mallet with a 3x4x7 head, probably heavier than 30 ounces. He mention ash and hornbeam for chisel handles.

[Jim Koepke]

Traditional woods are beech, ash, and hornbeam.

There may be another tradition at play here. Are you familiar with the Canadian flag?

505818

Ever consider what may be the most plentyful hardwood in the Veritas backyard?

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I talked to some Lee Valley people when these chisels were being designed a dozen years ago. I thought the handles would be brittle and I told them so. I’m surprised there haven’t been more problems. ....

Actually, Warren, that is incorrect. While overdone baking of wood can weaken the result, correctly done (lighter baking) there is no loss of strength. The reason for torrifying wood (and Maple, since it is Canadian) is that it adds greater stability and waterproofing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

Actually, Warren, that is incorrect. While overdone baking of wood can weaken the result, correctly done (lighter baking) there is no loss of strength. The reason for torrifying wood (and Maple, since it is Canadian) is that it adds greater stability and waterproofing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, I agree that technically you're correct BUT
The side effect to the stability and water resistance is increased brittleness.
This is fine in many situations but when used as a handle that will be struck repeatedly, iy's ill advised.
A chisel handle needs to direct the force of the blow and somewhat absorb a portion of the shock. (anyone who has used a solid steel framing chisel can appreciate this) Example (https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/chisels/specialty/66067-all-steel-carpenters-chisels?item=44S1150).
This is done in many ways, leather washers, different wood species, composites, etc.
A brittle handle has much less of an ability to absorb the shock (energy) and as a result it can split, as this post illustrates.

[Derek Cohen]

Edward, I'd like to read the evidence for your comments. Scientific papers are very difficult to find. The popular use for torrified wood is sound boards for guitars. Nevertheless, the articles I have read indicate that the reports of increased brittleness are overplayed. Even Rob Cosman has commented on this. Link. (https://robcosman.com/pages/newsletter-article-torrefied-wood)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

Well let me say first off, that scientific papers aside, any woodworker should know that dry wood is more brittle, prone to splitting and cracking more the green/wet wood.

A sound board for a guitar takes no extreme shock by being struck only indirect vibrations. Apples and oranges.
The main reason terrified tops have become popular, is that they more closely mimic the tonal qualities of pre-war guitars. These guitars have had many decades to basically 'dry out". the sound is much different than a new guitar made with traditional methods.
https://bourgeoisguitars.com/dana-bourgeois-on-torrefaction-for-ag/

Torrified or thermally modified wood is more dimensionally stable due the the chemical and structural changes that occur during the process. The trade off for that benefits is that the wood is more brittle.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bk-2014-1158.ch016
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10853-009-3984-8
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00226-010-0389-4
https://www.afs-journal.org/articles/forest/pdf/2007/07/f7071.pdf
https://cfpwoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/CFP-Woods-frequently-asked-questions-and-answers.pdf
https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/05/turns-out-fire-hardened-spears-arent-as-badass-as-we-thought/
https://www.mortiseandtenonmag.com/blogs/blog/torrefied-oak-try-square
https://adinatafurniture.com/thermowood-thermally-modified-wood-properties/

[Rafael Herrera]

I posted a link to a US dept. of Agriculture technical article about torrified wood above. Its main purpose seems to be to make wood for wood burning furnaces.

It might have seemed like a good idea to someone at LV to use this material, but like the leather caps, more like a marketing gimmick than a real advantage. It's telling that they also instruct the user to use a lighter mallet, a little preposterous for a $100 chisel.

Rafael

[Jim Koepke]

I posted a link to a US dept. of Agriculture technical article about torrified wood above. Its main purpose seems to be to make wood for wood burning furnaces.

It might have seemed like a good idea to someone at LV to use this material, but like the leather caps, more like a marketing gimmick than a real advantage. It's telling that they also instruct the user to use a lighter mallet, a little preposterous for a $100 chisel.

Rafael

Rafael, I have to agree with you somewhat. Though the feeling that since a chisel costs $100 it should be able to take a more powerful beating doesn't seem quite right to me.

For all we know, Joel may be a totally buff weight lifter who can break bricks with his bare hands. :D

What we do know some high quality chisels are made for paring and light mallet work. Some chisels are made to be hit hard with a heavy mallet to cut deeply into the wood being worked. Then there are many various chisels styles to choose from in between.

The technique employed in accomplishing the work at hand can also be problematic. Trying to remove large areas of a hardwood by taking large bites may be less forgiving toward one's tools than taking a light nibbling approach.

jtk

[steven c newman]

The 3 Narex chisels in my shop...
505840
And are meant to get "hammered"

[Edward Weber]

I posted a link to a US dept. of Agriculture technical article about torrified wood above. Its main purpose seems to be to make wood for wood burning furnaces.

It might have seemed like a good idea to someone at LV to use this material, but like the leather caps, more like a marketing gimmick than a real advantage. It's telling that they also instruct the user to use a lighter mallet, a little preposterous for a $100 chisel.

Rafael
Leather caps are not a marketing gimmick, they serve a purpose.
If they were a gimmick as you say, I don't think they would have been used for as many decades by as many manufacturers as they were.

[Derek Cohen]

Edward, your links do support the opinion that Torrefication reduces the bending strength of wood as it is more brittle. Clearly, there are advantages to using this wood (stability, waterproofing, colour), otherwise I much doubt that Veritas wood have done so. The decision to move away from Bubinga was due to it being placed on CITES. A replacement was needed. Was torrefied Maple the best choice? The general opinion here said there are better choices. Is it an inadequate choice? That is a different matter. I have used torrefied Maple handles longer than anyone outside Lee Valley/Veritas. They get hit, and remain in perfect condition. I posted this box about a year ago. Five Torrefied and two Bubinga …

https://i.postimg.cc/XV5HydGy/11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

One might argue that the handle design should dictate whether one uses a wooden mallet or steel-faced hammer. In my opinion, no un-hooped handle should be struck with a steel face. They are not only vulnerable to damage from a wayward blow or compression from a harder-than-wood material, but there is nothing to prevent the wood from splitting along a grain fault - which is what I believe was the cause of the OP’s chisel handle splitting.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The decision to move away from Bubinga was due to it being placed on CITES. A replacement was needed. Was torrefied Maple the best choice? The general opinion here said there are better choices.

Are those "better choices" of wood readily available in Canada? Manufacturing is expensive enough without having to pay the costs associated with importing lumber.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Interesting discussion for sure. As a manufacturer myself, I'm often challenged with raw material selection. It's always a balance between predictable supply, cost, function, durability, manufacturability, etc. and is rarely cut and dried. I find myself wondering what the goal of the torrification really was?

The Veritas marketing department says: "The handle is hard maple that has been kiln-baked at a high temperature to eliminate nearly all moisture content and caramelize the natural sugars in the wood. This imparts a rich, dark color to the wood, while helping to seal it against humidity changes, making it resistant to swelling and shrinkage".

Now having sat through more product development meetings than I can count, I can all but guarantee that no one said "I wish we could find a way to make handles with caramelized sugars and a darker finish that aren't plagued by dimensional changes due to humidity". They likely did it because maple is easy to get, and they felt it would somehow add strength so maple would perform like beech or hornbeam, or it let them eliminate an alternate finishing operation. Plus it's a cool story to tell. I'm thinking that most folks don't bash bench chisels with hammers either, so torrefied maple was probably presumed to be a safe bet with respect to durability. By all accounts it was. I see they added hoops to their mortise chisel handles, which get bashed with hammers quite regularly.

I'm curious if they looked at Resin Infusion typical of what Blue Spruce and other do? It's a fairly simple process that can be done in bulk, but I'm not tuned into the total cost to produce.

[Warren Mickley]

Are those "better choices" of wood readily available in Canada? Manufacturing is expensive enough without having to pay the costs associated with importing lumber.

jtk
Yes, all grow in the Toronto region. At least beech and ash ought to be cheaper than treated maple. The Aldis chisels use a premium handle wood.
I think beech handles were not exciting enough for the marketing department.

[Edward Weber]

Interesting discussion for sure. As a manufacturer myself, I'm often challenged with raw material selection. It's always a balance between predictable supply, cost, function, durability, manufacturability, etc. and is rarely cut and dried. I find myself wondering what the goal of the torrification really was?

The Veritas marketing department says: "The handle is hard maple that has been kiln-baked at a high temperature to eliminate nearly all moisture content and caramelize the natural sugars in the wood. This imparts a rich, dark color to the wood, while helping to seal it against humidity changes, making it resistant to swelling and shrinkage".

Now having sat through more product development meetings than I can count, I can all but guarantee that no one said "I wish we could find a way to make handles with caramelized sugars and a darker finish that aren't plagued by dimensional changes due to humidity". They likely did it because maple is easy to get, and they felt it would somehow add strength so maple would perform like beech or hornbeam, or it let them eliminate an alternate finishing operation. Plus it's a cool story to tell. I'm thinking that most folks don't bash bench chisels with hammers either, so torrefied maple was probably presumed to be a safe bet with respect to durability. By all accounts it was. I see they added hoops to their mortise chisel handles, which get bashed with hammers quite regularly.

I'm curious if they looked at Resin Infusion typical of what Blue Spruce and other do? It's a fairly simple process that can be done in bulk, but I'm not tuned into the total cost to produce.

I agree, It sort of seems like they were solving a problem no one was having.
I have/use primarily socket style chisels. If the handles are set into the socket and fitted properly, they will remain tight until the weather changes.
What could I possibly due to counter act this phenomenon? If only there was an adhesive, let's call it epoxy, that would be flexible and keep the handle snug in the socket all year long.:rolleyes:

I'm sure the early craftsman used pine pitch/resin or some type of tar to keep loose items tight, without sacrificing handle strength.
A chisel handle is a wear item and in that sense, it could be considered a consumable but there is a point to which it should last. The OP's situation indicates that Veritas passed that point, possibly for marketing reasons.

Wood moves, deal with it.

[Derek Cohen]

I agree, It sort of seems like they were solving a problem no one was having.
I whave/use primarily socket style chisels. If the handles are set into the socket and fitted properly, they will remain tight until the weather changes.
What could I possibly due to counter act this phenomenon? If only there was an adhesive, let's call it epoxy, that would be flexible and keep the handle snug in the socket all year long.:rolleyes:

I'm sure the early craftsman used pine pitch/resin or some type of tar to keep loose items tight, without sacrificing handle strength.
A chisel handle is a wear item and in that sense, it could be considered a consumable but there is a point to which it should last. The OP's situation indicates that Veritas passed that point, possibly for marketing reasons.

Wood moves, deal with it.

Edward, I suggest that you misread what Rob wrote. He offered a logical and sensible theory, namely that Lee Valley chose Maple as it was available. Torrefication was done to improve it. This is in line with my own conclusion. There was nothing underhand here, as you tend to suggest. Your post has the flavour of a witch hunt.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Jeez, this has become worse than a sharpening thread.

[Edward Weber]

Edward, I suggest that you misread what Rob wrote. He offered a logical and sensible theory, namely that Lee Valley chose Maple as it was available. Torrefication was done to improve it. This is in line with my own conclusion. There was nothing underhand here, as you tend to suggest. Your post has the flavour of a witch hunt.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I was not disagreeing with him, I found his post to be accurate

I never suggested one way or another that there was a "witch hunt" just a bad decision.
They're made all the time.
Making a chisel handle more brittle is IMO a bad decision. Why they choose to do that is just a guessing game.

I suggest you misread something

[Rafael Herrera]

We visited a history museum yesterday. I was paying special attention to exhibits showing old tools. Found this one with boat building tools from the 19th century. The gouge wear pattern is interesting, it was heavily used, the hoop was really useful here, notice how it dug in into the handle.

What I'm curious about is how and for what activities a gouge like this was used?

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[Jim Koepke]

What I'm curious about is how and for what activities a gouge like this was used?

There are many curved areas on a sailing ship enabling the smooth passage of rope(s).

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think this is an incannel gouge. It's not a carving tool.

There's a video link I'll post in a bit. Shows an incannel gouge in action.

[Rafael Herrera]

This is a plane maker fitting the handle. Notice how after he's seated the handle in the mortise he uses a gouge to quickly remove excess material. He doesn't use a flat chisel, probably the wrong tool for the job. The gouge is used like a scrub plane.

https://youtu.be/MY7TBCMCYdo?t=350

[Warren Mickley]

This is a plane maker fitting the handle. Notice how after he's seated the handle in the mortise he uses a gouge to quickly remove excess material. He doesn't use a flat chisel, probably the wrong tool for the job. The gouge is used like a scrub plane.

https://youtu.be/MY7TBCMCYdo?t=350

You could do this work with either kind of gouge. You can tell by the angle of attack that the bevel is on the inside.

[Edward Weber]

There are many curved areas on a sailing ship enabling the smooth passage of rope(s).

jtk

Agreed
I can't tell if it's an in or an out by the photo "Looks" like an out to me.
Could someone confirm

[Rafael Herrera]

You could do this work with either kind of gouge. You can tell by the angle of attack that the bevel is on the inside.

Another thought I had is that the plane maker seems to have pared off a chunk on the far side (with a flat chisel) and then used the gouge, presumably to avoid tear out.

I should try this type of joint and see how it works.

[Rafael Herrera]

There are many curved areas on a sailing ship enabling the smooth passage of rope(s).

I was after details on specific uses. There certainly are curved areas, for example, the sides of a boat are curved, but those are bent boards, I don't think those were worked with a gouge.

[Jim Koepke]

I was after details on specific uses. There certainly are curved areas, for example, the sides of a boat are curved, but those are bent boards, I don't think those were worked with a gouge.

Of course not. But there are blocks that pass ropes. Often along the railings there are open areas where lines can be passed or secured. Sometimes the rail would be supported on balusters (turnings) sometimes the would be ovals cut into a plank with a rail on top. These would be used to pass lines for tying up to a dock. They could also be used to secure cargo.

Sailing ships tended to have a lot of ornamental work that also served a utilitarian purpose.

jtk

[David Carroll]

The video of the planemaker fitting the handle on the plane was fascinating. Judging by the number of old, well-used gouges that I see in tool chests, antique stores, etc., they seem to have been used quite a bit. I understand why pattern makers used in-cannel gouges for the controlled radius, but apart from ornamental carving (and those tools have subtle differences) I'm not aware of how out-cannel gouges were used. Making blocks for sailing vessels I get. But I don't imagine that accounts for the numbers that are there.

Back in the days when tool merchants sold quality tools, I used to see firmer gouges sold regularly. I never gave much thought to just how these tools were used in flat work. I suppose to waste excess stock quickly? while controlling splitting at the edges. Like as Raphael suggests a scrub plane for tight spots?

I use gouges all the time in carving to waste wood away quickly, it hasn't occurred to me to use it for other purposes outside of carving. Interesting.

DC

[Jim Koepke]

Making blocks for sailing vessels I get. But I don't imagine that accounts for the numbers that are there.

Many sailing ships had ornate/carved woodwork all over the ship. Besides, ship carpenters may have enjoyed carving during their off time.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Just use them like a regular chisel when you register off the flat back. Regular gouge for convex work, in canal for concave work. Grooves for sheaves, grip surfaces for railing, anywhere where ropes run through inside surfaces, chocks, cleats anywhere running lines pass through wood. Nice straight runs of reeding can be done with long pattern makers gouges. They work nice for bead carving, defining the circumference.
Jim

[Rafael Herrera]

A carving gouge is out-cannel. The one in the picture I took is an in-cannel type and about 2" wide. Unlikely to be a carving tool.

Here's another example of in-cannel gouge use.

https://youtu.be/FZT5vWaJUvw

Here's a wooden block, there are many other types if one searches under "sailing wooden block". I'm no sailor or boat builder, but from this example, a 2" wide gouge seems unlikely to be needed, perhaps a smaller one to cut the rope channels.

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[David Carroll]

Many sailing ships had ornate/carved woodwork all over the ship. Besides, ship carpenters may have enjoyed carving during their off time
jtk

Fair point. I was just wondering if the use of a out-cannel firmer gouge found more use in general carpentry (house building as opposed to cabinet and furniture building) back in the day as a way to get rid of a lot of waste wood quickly, instead of sawing, for times when you want more control than with an axe or hatchet, but don't need to remove so much that you would use an adze.

This conversation reminds me of a house that I looked at to buy, back in the 1980s. It was in Northfield Mass. Build in c. 1760, it had stayed in the same family until it went up for sale. It was in almost untouched condition and was one of the most beautiful examples of colonial era "vernacular" building that I had ever seen, before or since. This was a farmhouse, built with materials found on-site and not fancy at all. But rough and charming all the same.

I was (and still am) interested in Colonial era building and looked at the house in detail. The first floor joists, visible from the cellar, were logs hewn flat to accept the random width pine flooring, which was both thick, and varied in thickness. To make the whole thing planar, the bottom faces of the floorboards had, in places, been relieved, cross-grain, with an adze (I guessed) to account for the rough hewn, rived, and sometimes pit-sawn stock where they mated with the joists. But it wasn't notched out with a saw and then chiseled flat, it looked like the edges were faired in over an inch and a half (approximately). I assumed it was done with an adze. I remember thinking that the adze used had an unusually tight sweep, but now I wonder if it might well have been a large firmer gouge.

Barr Tools, along with their timber framing chisels and slicks makes a large gouge, and I wonder if these tools found more common use in housebuilding (and ship building).

DC

[James Pallas]

A carving gouge is out-cannel. The one in the picture I took is an in-cannel type and about 2" wide. Unlikely to be a carving tool.

Here's another example of in-cannel gouge use.

https://youtu.be/FZT5vWaJUvw

Here's a wooden block, there are many other types if one searches under "sailing wooden block". I'm no sailor or boat builder, but from this example, a 2" wide gouge seems unlikely to be needed, perhaps a smaller one to cut the rope channels.

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That is a small block. The rope sizes to handle rigging guns and mooring on a sailing ship could be the smallest at 1” and the largest 8” to 10”. The opening in in chock is about double the rope size so a 4” rope 8” chock. Sheave for a block for gun handling could easily be 3” or more. Remember they used hemp for rope not nylon so double the size for strength.
Jim

[Edward Weber]

It's my understanding that In cannel gouges have many functions. From being used as the next step down from an adze, to faring curves to patternmaking.
Depending on the shape and size, of which there are many, they have the ability to remove large amounts of material quickly, without the danger of dig-ins associated with straight chisels or out cannel gouges. Hogging out large mortises and the ability to cut accross grain at the while simultaneously controlling depth of cut are just a couple of reasons why they were so widely used.
In shipbuilding, they were used for just about every task you could imagine.

I only have one in cannel gouge but the more i use it the better I like it

[Jim Koepke]

Depending on the shape and size, of which there are many, they have the ability to remove large amounts of material quickly, without the danger of dig-ins associated with straight chisels or out cannel gouges.

My thought was the in cannel gouge would be more likely to dig in. The bevel on the outside lends a bit of leverage to control the gouge from digging in to the work.

A cranked neck in cannel gouge is great for cutting a long flute if the body of the gouge can be kept low against the work.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

My thought was the in cannel gouge would be more likely to dig in. The bevel on the outside lends a bit of leverage to control the gouge from digging in to the work.

A cranked neck in cannel gouge is great for cutting a long flute if the body of the gouge can be kept low against the work.

jtk

Thanks for keeping me honest Jim, I started getting my ins and outs confused. I wasn't very clear

A lot of people like out cannel gouges for cutting and levering out waste as you said.
We are talking about shipbuilding more than carving and it depends on what you're cutting.
The in cannel gouge gives you more of a reference surface (the entire back) to work off of. This changes the working angle of the tool to that more like a chisel and can make certain cuts easier and/or straighter. Cuts like convex curves on pulleys and rope guides and straight sides on mortises grooves and dados.
Some links for those interested.
https://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/patternmakers-gouges/
https://brfinewoodworking.com/in-praise-of-in-cannel-gouges/
https://blog.vintagetoolpatch.com/2022/05/01/gouges.html

[steven c newman]

Big chisels IN my shop...
506334
1" square chisel. 3/4" Bevel edge Chisel, and
506335
1" wide gouge...out channel?
506336
That I use to carve "Finger Lifts" on the boxes I make

Ends of 2 of the chisels have a ring...steel ring..
506337
Handle on the square chisel is a replacement.