Upgrading Church kitchen cabinet doors

[Ole Anderson]

The ladies at church would like an upgrade to the painted cabinet flat doors and drawers in their kitchen. They are now a ghastly green. Many hang open or don't close properly.

We have 37 upper and lower doors to deal with. They look like MDF with a 1/4" round over, although with so many coats of paint they could be plywood, just under 3/4" thick and probably at least 50 years old. My first thought was to just replace the old hinges with Blum soft close hinges at about $10 per door and repaint, plugging the old hinge screw holes. Problem is that they are overlay with a rabbet edge so that is a no go. (face frame construction) Next option would be to just replace the doors with flat doors then use the Blum hinges. Not looking to go with the work of constructing inset panel doors. So I am thinking MDF is the obvious choice as dealing with exposed plywood edges is problematic. Your thoughts?

Next we have 13 four inch high drawers of varying widths (10-3/4" to 28-1/2"). They just fit the opening with wood on wood construction, no drawer mounts. Difficult to open. A few very heavy with silverware. I would like to be able to use Blum Tandem full extension under mounts with soft close. No way to reuse old drawers. Looks like 18" depth would work for all but one. Not sure I want to set up for dovetail joints so possibly looking at ordering custom drawers off the internet. I see they range from knock down 5/8" 9 ply prefinished Baltic birch (1/4" bottoms) with dowel construction to maple dovetail 3/8" bottoms at twice the price. Probably just use soft maple for the drawer fronts.

I have another woodworker to help me and a gal volunteering to paint. Maybe have him do the drawers and I will tackle the doors. I could spray the doors in my heated garage and have her do everything else.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am pretty sure those doors will be plywood. The cabinets look like, and the drawers sound like they were built in place by the carpenter. I have made some old kitchens like this look and function fairly well with an Impervo paint job, new Amerock hardware, and recreating the existing drawers to accommodate KV drawer slides. I recognize that green, it was a popular color. This would also be a candidate for a refacing project. New doors, drawers, and face frame covering. Have you been given a budget?

[Jamie Buxton]

New MDF doors would solve some problems. But MDF is not good at holding screws, and those doors clearly get used hard. You can still buy that kind of hinge, so keeping the old doors might be a way to go. Not much work, and lower cost than new doors and hinges.

[Lee Schierer]

One of the problems that is common to church cabinets and older people is that when they get down to remove items from the lower cabinets, they use the cabinet doors for leverage to get back up. Make sure you use robust hinges. The newer European type hinges don't hold up. DAMHIKT Maybe a piano hinge or double up regular kitchen cabinet hinges might work.

Sliding doors might work better.

[Jon Grider]

Why replace those hinges? Boil them in an old pot, use a wire brush to scrub and strip, and spray the doors, face frames and drawers. Donate saved $$ to missions.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I would do a trial on one door to see how that paint surface responds to sanding with 180 or 220.

Those old hinges are cool but do not self close. They are usually combined with some sort of catch. Amerock still makes good quality 3/8 inset hinges that self close.

[Jim Dwight]

I would not use MDF. In addition to not holding screws well it is just plain nasty to work with. Dust goes over everything and evilly resists being captured by dust collection. It would be quick and easy to make new doors out of MDF but I think you will rapidly be requested to make replacements.

I think flat panel doors are pretty quick and easy to make. I would use 6mm luan underlayment plywood for the panels (although MDF could be used) and softwood or maple or poplar for the frames (depending on availability and budget). I've had good luck with the small joints made by router table cope and stick bits holding up even on large oak raised panel doors. With painted doors I would put at least a dab of glue in the dado to hold the panels in place and add some strength to the door. I would expect doors made this way to last at least another 50 years.

I volunteer at my church and had to rehang doors in cabinets made of particle board several times when they were pulled out of the cabinet. I don't know if somebody leaned on them or what. Particle board is a little better than MDF for strength but only a little. It is also a little lighter but only a little. These doors have formica on them so paint is not an issue but I expect we will eventually remake them.

I don't think doors on base cabinets are a good idea although I admit my kitchen has them. My Ex insisted or they would have all been drawers. I do not like having to get down on the floor to see into a base cabinet and get the item I want. It isn't going to get any easier as I get older. If you cannot switch the base cabinets to drawers, I would at least consider putting in trays on drawer slides. It makes the contents much more accessable.

Drawers can be made very quickly and easily. I like to use half blind dovetails and once your jig and router are set up and adjusted they go pretty quick. But I can see where you'd want to do something even quicker. Simple butt joints glued and brad nailed together make a strong drawer. My last house had kitchen cabinets made that way and all of them worked when I sold it. 1/2 inch plywood sides, front and back would be my choice with 6mm luan bottoms except on the largest drawers which should get 1/2 inch plywood bottoms. I'd just glue and nail the 1/2 inch bottoms on but would dado for the 6mm. I'd use full extension side mount drawer slides. I know bottom mount are all the rage these days but they waste a bunch of space and cost more. I think the ladies will be happy with full extension slides that work.

In my shop I have some drawers made with pocket hole screws. I wouldn't do this in less than 3/4 stock but the drawers are strong. If you make the holes in the front and back and put on a separate drawer front they do not show. I have a friend that gave up on dovetails and used pocket screws in the kitchens he built. I wish I'd helped him with his dovetail jig but his clients were happy with his way of doing it.

[Bruce Wrenn]

My vote goes for MDF door, 3/4" thick. Quick and easy to duplicate in case of failure. For hinges, use either Blum 33's , or 38's. Both will work with existing face frames. On lowers, I would bite the bullet and use 160 degree hinges, as these doors tend to be opened to the max, and then leaned on. Build out the area behind the face frame to accept the standard mounting clip, not the face frame mount clip. No matter which type hinge you go with, use the press in fasteners on the doors. They are less likely to pull out. For drawers, I would use 1/2 BB sides and bottoms, pocket screwed and glued together. I built cabinets like this for for local Y's for over 20 years. I can tell you that Y's and schools are HELL on cabinets.

[Derek Cohen]

Ole, my thought is to keep the existing doors and hinges, but remove as much paint as possible, and then glue 1/8” ply or MDF strips around the perimeter of the door fronts. This will create a faux Shaker-style door. Once painted afresh, the add-on will not be seen. Also, keeps the costs down.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Sabo]

I would not use MDF. In addition to not holding screws well it is just plain nasty to work with. Dust goes over everything and evilly resists being captured by dust collection. It would be quick and easy to make new doors out of MDF but I think you will rapidly be requested to make replacements.


This is simply not universally true. If you can't get screws to hold in MDF - you've chosen the wrong type and aren't pre -drilling. MDF doesn't resist capture - it may (or may not) produce finer particulate than something else; but that doesn't make it harder to flow into the airstream. That will show you where your capture area or cfm is deficient - but that'd be your fault, not the material's. We have doors still in service made of MDF from 25+ years ago - so if made correctly they will last as long as any shaker door you make from cherry or whatever. If you want a high gloss high polish surface - it's the only game in town.


Make sure you use robust hinges. The newer European type hinges don't hold up. DAMHIKT Maybe a piano hinge or double up regular kitchen cabinet hinges might work.
Also - not strictly true. Yes, a piano hinge is stronger than a euro hinge but it's also harder to install and has no adjustment - none. If you've had euro hinges fail prematurely - you're using an inferior brand and or not designing enough to support the weight and duty cycle of the door. MDF doors are heavy and generally require and additional hinge over a shaker style or plywood one of the same size. As above , we still have euro hinges decades old still working fine. The newer ones are even better and more refined. And I'm sure we've all seen a failed piano hinge once or twice too.



my thought is to keep the existing doors and hinges, but remove as much paint as possible, and then glue 1/8” ply or MDF strips around the perimeter of the door fronts. This will create a faux Shaker-style door. Once painted afresh, the add-on will not be seen. Also, keeps the costs down.


only prob. with this is that those hinges are going to cause the thicker doors to bind on one another before they open to 90 deg.

[Mel Fulks]

Glad to see ‘cooler heads prevailing’. Since it doesn’t happen often….it’s almost as exciting as a riot ! And Women will NOT tolerate church
kitchen cabinets that are better than the cabinets they have at home. Think about the repercussions of that! Avoid disturbing old cabinets until there is a consensus of what
the new styles will be. Right now all the “new models” are probably still wrapped in paper ,like the NEW cars .

[Rick Potter]

I'm with Lee on this one. I had the same problem with church cabinets that looked exactly like that. I would bet they are plywood. The ones I dealt with were 1960 vintage. The hinges are bent from people pulling on them, like Lee says.

I would take one off, and try stripping it down. If it is useable, get new hinges and repaint. Inexpensive self close hinges are available for that style door (but beware that they are probably metric, and will not line up exactly with the existing holes, experience talking here).

I agree with the point of not making them too nice. Many people will be using them, and they get banged up.

[Lee Schierer]

Also - not strictly true. Yes, a piano hinge is stronger than a euro hinge but it's also harder to install and has no adjustment - none. If you've had euro hinges fail prematurely - you're using an inferior brand and or not designing enough to support the weight and duty cycle of the door. MDF doors are heavy and generally require and additional hinge over a shaker style or plywood one of the same size. As above , we still have euro hinges decades old still working fine. The newer ones are even better and more refined. And I'm sure we've all seen a failed piano hinge once or twice too.

You missed one important point regarding the hinge failures. They did not fail from too many open/close cycles. They failed due the weight of individuals pushing down on the open door in order to get down and then to stand back up. The hinges in question were Blum hinges. The hinges were designed to hold the weight of the door, not an extra 40-60+ pounds of down force applied to the door a foot or more from the hinge.

[Richard Verwoest]

Just my 2 cents.....

Remove the doors/hinges. Fill in the rabbit with strips of wood. Install quality Euro hinges with proper screws. Maybe 3 instead of 2? Since new drawers are being made, I would consider pullout drawers for the lower cabinets. This would help with the door being used for leverage. When you go to install, consider taking a portable planner with you. Add filler pieces to securely mount all the hardware, including blocks so the 3rd screw can be added to the Euro hinge plate.

Richard

[Dan Hahr]

Just make some new doors and get on with it. Slab MDF, euro hinges, good primer and paint. Much easier and cheaper than spending all that time trying to remake those horrible doors. Sand the face frames to bare wood, fill holes, and paint to match.
Dan

[Bruce Wrenn]

Just make some new doors and get on with it. Slab MDF, euro hinges, good primer and paint. Much easier and cheaper than spending all that time trying to remake those horrible doors. Sand the face frames to bare wood, fill holes, and paint to match.
Dan50 year old doors most likely have lead paint on them, so sanding is out. New doors, strip frames using Citrostrip, then scrape out any bad spots. Be sure and contain and correctly dispose off strippings and old doors.

[Tom M King]

I agree with Bruce. Those doors are so easy to make, the amount of work required to make new ones is miniscule compared to dealing with that old paint. Hinges look like Amerock to me. They have a spring in them, or did, and you need to allow for the door moving towards the handle side when you install them. Easiest would be to take direct measurements off the existing doors, and reuse the same hinge screw holes.

[Richard Verwoest]

If lead is a concern, then shouldn't the entire cabinet be removed and replaced?

[Tom M King]

I doubt children will chew on the insides of the cabinets, or even the face frames. If there is any sanding done, lead dust is in the air.

[Ole Anderson]

Good point on the lead, I planned on some sanding, so best to get a lead test kit first and plan accordingly. My preference is to replace the doors, others in the decision making process though. Looking at Blum 30C series press-in hinges on the doors. 5/8" BB drawer sides, 3/8" BB bottoms with 563H tandem undermounts. So many options on drawer construction. I have priced BB dovetail drawers from thecabinetdoor.store.com, about $550 for 13 including notches for Blum tandem mounts, might not be worth the effort to build them myself.

[Bruce Wrenn]

After you test for lead, let one of the others involved in decision making sand out just one door. Most likely their vote will change QUICKLY to make new doors. In a day, you could make all new doors, but sanding / stripping will take several days. New doors don't need to have rabbet on edge, full overlay instead.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

They are obviously pre 1978 so a lead test is taken for granted. (It is an ordinance in our town, often ignored). Just mentioning a lead test has discouraged several clients from saying yes to a paint job.
Ole, I am glad you have checked thectabinetdoorstore. It is hard to compete with a shop that specializes in cabinet doors.
Give some thought to how modern drawer hardware is going to be incorporated into those stick built cabinets. Do the cabinets have a back?

Here is a snip from our towns website. There was a big push for education and compliance a few years ago. Many painters ignore the requirement to test. I have done several and have not encountered a positive.

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