BS safer than TS?

[Ole Anderson]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>I keep hearing that a bandsaw is safer than a table saw. I am not sure I would agree after trying mine and checking out this list. Kickback is not a problem, but like one injured person said, butchers use bandsaws to cut bones. See the attached list of bandsaw injuries including total amputations. Thank goodness, no pictures. No, I haven't cut myself. Hopefully this will be a reminder to "be careful out there".


Go here http://www.woodworking.org/ (http://www.woodworking.org/) then click on "Accident Survey", then choose "Bandsaw"


</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm not sure you picked the best source of statistics to back up a claim that bandsaws are as dangerous as tablesaws. I didn't do any detailed analysis beyond noting that there were 34 accident reports for bandsaws and 221 for tablesaws, about 64% "requiring medical attention" in both cases.

[Ole Anderson]

Statistical point made, however the possibility of horrific injuries on either is enough to make me more cautious. Those total amputations really got my attention. If more people poured over those accident reports, there would be less accidents. A valuable resource that should be required reading.

[Lee DeRaud]

Statistical point made, however the possibility of horrific injuries on either is enough to make me more cautious. Those total amputations really got my attention. If more people poured over those accident reports, there would be less accidents. A valuable resource that should be required reading.Not sure what your point is, beyond possibly advertising this website...

If you really want to be afraid of your power tools, the accident reports for "biscuit machines" have a few gems as well.

[Matt Warfield]

Indeed!! And it's not only being careful in front of the saw either. I have a friend who lost his middle finger at the 2nd knuckle when it hit the backside of a running bandsaw blade. I follow one simple rule: If I don't know precisely what movements I'm going to make, turn the tool off! Okay, there's more rules but that keeps at least part of my focus on safety. :)

[Tom Donalek]

Good point about reading accident reports. In Mountaineering and Rock Climbing, there is an annual report called "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" that carefully documents as many of the previous year's climbing accidents that the editors can get details on. They carefully lay out exactly what happened, and usually include some editorial comment about what the climbers did wrong. It's sobering reading, but I'd much rather learn from other's (sometimes fatal) mistakes rather than make one of them myself.

My inexperienced, newbie, gut feeling is that I'm less likely to really injure myself on the BS than the TS - BUT it would only take a split second for me to put my fingers in the wrong place and push some stock a little too close to the blade. Just like on the TS! (shudder)

[lou sansone]

good point on the BS.. they can cut you as well at the TS can. I always knock off @ 9 pm in the shop just to avoid being too tired and having one of those accidents
lou

[John Bailey]

I'm scared of all of them.

John

[Steve Clardy]

Any cutting tool is dangerous.
As far as the question, I would say a bandsaw is safer.

[David Abel]

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>I keep hearing that a bandsaw is safer than a table saw. I am not sure I would agree after trying mine and checking out this list. Kickback is not a problem, but like one injured person said, butchers use bandsaws to cut bones. See the attached list of bandsaw injuries including total amputations. Thank goodness, no pictures. No, I haven't cut myself. Hopefully this will be a reminder to "be careful out there".


Go here http://www.woodworking.org/ (http://www.woodworking.org/) then click on "Accident Survey", then choose "Bandsaw"


</td></tr></tbody></table>

Actually I just had a painful kickback on my BS a few days ago. it was a small triangular piece that I was cutting and the BS didn't appreciate the way I was feeding it. The kickback left several of my fingers numb for a while. At least it didn't launch into my face.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Any power machine can getcha. Any power machine can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing and don't educate yourself on how to use each machine. When I was a certified OHSA inspector a few years ago most of the accidents be it a drill press, wood lathe, metal lathe, table saw, band saw, router, shaper or whatever, 90% were operator error. So I don't think you can say one is more dangerous than the other. You have to give each machine it's due respect. I will also say most of my near misses or kickbacks were from me doing either something stupid like not paying attention or tired or trying to do something the tool was not made to do. Just my $1.298.

[Jim Becker]

The most dangerous tool in your shop is the one you are currently using. They all have different things and times when there is more or less chance of an accident. Band saws have their own quirks, too...and can take off your hand "really quickly". Check out your local butcher shop and see what they use to cut meat on!

[Mark Rios]

Machines don't hurt people, people d..........oh...wait a minute......nevermind.

[Dale Thompson]

Ole,
In the countless millennia that I have been working with tools, I would have to admit that I have lost more blood to "slipping" screwdrivers and "poorly directed" pocket knives than I have to all of the power tools in my shop COMBINED! :o :eek: :)

Of course, that may change if we ever get electricity up here in the northwoods! ;) :)

Dale T.

[David Abel]

Any power machine can getcha. Any power machine can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing and don't educate yourself on how to use each machine. When I was a certified OHSA inspector a few years ago most of the accidents be it a drill press, wood lathe, metal lathe, table saw, band saw, router, shaper or whatever, 90% were operator error. So I don't think you can say one is more dangerous than the other. You have to give each machine it's due respect. I will also say most of my near misses or kickbacks were from me doing either something stupid like not paying attention or tired or trying to do something the tool was not made to do. Just my $1.298.

It startled me because I've only had kickbacks on a TS and CMS. I thought it was unheard of on a BS. Live and learn!

[Robert McGowen]

The most dangerous tool in your shop is the one you are currently using. They all have different things and times when there is more or less chance of an accident. Band saws have their own quirks, too...and can take off your hand "really quickly". Check out your local butcher shop and see what they use to cut meat on!
I have to agree with Jim. I have never been injured by a tool that I wasn't using at the time!

Used to get injured numerous times by a 1/2" hammer drill with a 5 1/2" hole saw attached. Darn thing would catch without warning and sling a 30 lb. plywood box in circles. Never had a problem with my lathe, bandsaw, router, planer, or jointer, but a table saw caught a finger once! Never had an injury since then (about 2 years) with any tool. Intense pain has a way of making you smarter!

[Lee DeRaud]

I have to agree with Jim. I have never been injured by a tool that I wasn't using at the time!I had an impact driver roll off the tool cart onto my foot once...does that count?

[Tom Donalek]

Here's a shot of someone at the Tsukiji fish market in Tokyo slicing up several thousand dollars worth of slippery, awkward frozen tuna - watch those fingers at the end of the cut!

[scott spencer]

I'm not sure you picked the best source of statistics to back up a claim that bandsaws are as dangerous as tablesaws. I didn't do any detailed analysis beyond noting that there were 34 accident reports for bandsaws and 221 for tablesaws, about 64% "requiring medical attention" in both cases. A totalled number of accidents per machine doesn't paint as clear of a picture as a ratio would....similar to hearing about the total number of defects from the best selling machine on the market.....the machine with the highest usage will likely have the highest total number of accidents. If we knew the number of accidents per hour, or per use, or per pass, we'd have a better indication. I'd guess that far more people use a TS than use a BS, so I'd expect more accidents on the TS.

That said, as others have pointed out, just about any tool in the shop can cause injury...especially those with cutters. About 15 years ago, a guy I hired to make speaker cabinets for me cut a tendon in his hand with a flat screw driver. :eek:

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/jackpot/bb_slicing1.jpg

What a bunch of wimps, what is to fear in this pic.............. ;) :D

I tell you, when I see Big Blue ripping through some HARD Sakura, like a hot knife through butter, I have the utmost of respect for the power of that 63 mm (2 1/2") wide carbide tipped blade :eek:

All tools must be respected.

Cheers!

[Mike Cutler]

I have the three strike rule in the shop. Three mistakes of any kind and I'm done. Measure wrong, mark a line incorrectly, cut the wrong board by accident, etc.. etc.. and it's time to do something else for the day, because I am obviously not paying attention.
I'm not sure that the BS is a dangerous as the TS. I really don't want to find out either. If it's got a blade that's moving you better be paying attention.

I'm kinda like Dale I guess. The worst hand accident I've ever had that required medical intervention came from an oil filter wrench. Chisels are pretty sneaky too, and fast little suckers to boot.;)

[Tim Marks]

I have lost more blood to "slipping" screwdrivers and "poorly directed" pocket knives

The difference is that when the TS "slips", it cuts chucks off instead of just drawing blood.

I ams with you though. I have had a few close calls. One on a router table freehanding a chunk of wood that the router grabbed and yanked away from me about 55 mph... drawing my hands too close for comfort.

My close calls on the TS mostly due to ducking wood that gets kicked back when I am ripping a piece to narrow for the anti-kickback pawls to keep hold of.

But I love my BS... this is where you can say "BS don't injure people, people...". The BS isn't going to yank your hand into the blade or throw something at you. You have to shove your hand into the blade.

[Tyler Howell]

I don't fear any of them. I respect them all!!!
You gotta be extra careful when you wear a thong!!

[Steve Clardy]

I don't fear any of them. I respect them all!!!
You gotta be extra careful when you wear a thong!!




:eek: :eek: :eek: :D :D :D ;)

[Lee DeRaud]

A totalled number of accidents per machine doesn't paint as clear of a picture as a ratio would....similar to hearing about the total number of defects from the best selling machine on the market.....the machine with the highest usage will likely have the highest total number of accidents. If we knew the number of accidents per hour, or per use, or per pass, we'd have a better indication. I'd guess that far more people use a TS than use a BS, so I'd expect more accidents on the TS.I absolutely agree: I was just doing what I could with the data available. But that was kind of my point: this site is pretty much worthless for drawing conclusions about relative tool safety. It's simply a collection of anecdotes, roughly sorted (by the "victims" from the look of it) into extremely broad categories...note that "requires medical attention" is everything from "closed cut with bandaid" to "total amputation".

Reading these stories didn't make me want to avoid the tools involved, but it sure made me want to avoid the people involved: a high percentage of them shouldn't be trusted with anything sharper than a hunk of 0000 steel wool.

[Steve Clardy]

Reading these stories didn't make me want to avoid the tools involved, but it sure made me want to avoid the people involved: a high percentage of them shouldn't be trusted with anything sharper than a hunk of 0000 steel wool.



:eek: :D :D :D ;) <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Dale Thompson]

Reading these stories didn't make me want to avoid the tools involved, but it sure made me want to avoid the people involved: a high percentage of them shouldn't be trusted with anything sharper than a hunk of 0000 steel wool.

Lee,
Aw c'mon Lee. Are you having a bad day? If so, I am sorry. :) In reality, people and statistics have virtually NO relationship to each other. :( Have you ever known a statistically AVERAGE person? People are real life entities with experiences that they are usually willing to share if asked. Statistics are just numbers that can be skewed in any manner that is favorable to the pre-disposed opinion of the statistician. :eek: For example: If gas goes from $2/gal to $4/gal, it statistically increases in price by 100%. If the SAME gas goes from $4/gal to $2/gal, it statistically decreases by only 50%. :confused:

We ALL know that certain tools are inherently more dangerous than others. Personally, I consider my scroll saw to be less dangerous than my band saw. I consider my lathe to be less dangerous than my table saw. I consider my drill press to be less dangerous than my router table or shaper.

If you want a really DANGEROUS tool, try igniting a chunk of 0000 Steel Wool in a pure Oxygen environment! You would wish that you had cut off three fingers with a butter knife. :( :eek:

Just a thought from one of those people! :)

Dale T.

[Mark Rios]

http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/jackpot/bb_slicing1.jpg

What a bunch of wimps, what is to fear in this pic.............. ;) :D

I tell you, when I see Big Blue ripping through some HARD Sakura, like a hot knife through butter, I have the utmost of respect for the power of that 63 mm (2 1/2") wide carbide tipped blade :eek:

All tools must be respected.

Cheers!


HOLY PACHEEBIES, BATMAN!!!! THAT'S A BIGA@@ SAW BLADE!!! Do you do scroll work with that blade?

[Matt Meiser]

For example: If gas goes from $2/gal to $4/gal, it statistically increases in price by 100%. If the SAME gas goes from $4/gal to $2/gal, it statistically decreases by only 50%. :confused:


You don't know how many conference calls it took for me to convince a customer that our software was working properly. They were sure 10lbs + 10% - 10% was 10lbs.:eek:

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

HOLY PACHEEBIES, BATMAN!!!! THAT'S A BIGA@@ SAW BLADE!!! Do you do scroll work with that blade?
Nope, I don't cut nothing but straight lines with it, OK, they may be a little wavy :D

I need to get a 10" or a 12" just to do the curvy things, but as I won't need it to resaw, I don't think I'll bother with a 14".

Cheers!

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

You don't know how many conference calls it took for me to convince a customer that our software was working properly. They were sure 10lbs + 10% - 10% was 10lbs.:eek:
That is funny, just like when you take a price of $10 and you want a mark up of 25% it is not $12.50 but $13.33, or at least that is the way we do it in Japan, $10 divided by 75% (10/0.75).

so 10 lbs plus 10% minus 10% is 9.9lbs.

Mr. Mark Twain said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

:D

Cheers!

[Vaughn McMillan]

...Mr. Mark Twain said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics."...
Of course 37.4% of statistics are made up. But it doesn't matter, since half the population is below the mean level in mathematics comprehension anyway. ;)

- Vaughn

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Of course 37.4% of statistics are made up. But it doesn't matter, since half the population is below the mean level in mathematics comprehension anyway. ;)

- Vaughn

so where are the other half, below the "not so nice" level :D

[Dev Emch]

Whats the accident rate on this oliver? Think this oliver may be safer than a 416 or 88?

P.S. Oh yah, as you can see from the tag, this is a real honest of goodness oliver. But its an automatic bread slicer. Maybe order up a few loafs of wheatboard to give it a test drive.

[scott spencer]

Of course 37.4% of statistics are made up. But it doesn't matter, since half the population is below the mean level in mathematics comprehension anyway. ;)

- Vaughn As long as you use a decimal point and say it with confidence, 96.8% will believe anything you tell them. :rolleyes:

[Mike Cutler]

Whats the accident rate on this oliver? Think this oliver may be safer than a 416 or 88?

P.S. Oh yah, as you can see from the tag, this is a real honest of goodness oliver. But its an automatic bread slicer. Maybe order up a few loafs of wheatboard to give it a test drive.


Dev. Please, please tell me that you don't own an Oliver bread slicer. I'm getting a little nervous here in Ct for ya' bro'.:eek: ;)

From statistcs class a bazillion years ago at Cal State Fullerton.
" A statistic does not set out to prove a truth, it proves a statement"

Remembering that. I wonder what the percentage of college prof's that don't wear matching socks is/was.:p :p

[Mark Rios]

Dev. Please, please tell me that you don't own an Oliver bread slicer. I'm getting a little nervous here in Ct for ya' bro'.:eek: ;)


ROFLMAO!!!!!:D :D :D

[Dev Emch]

Dev. Please, please tell me that you don't own an Oliver bread slicer. I'm getting a little nervous here in Ct for ya' bro'.:eek: ;)

From statistcs class a bazillion years ago at Cal State Fullerton.
" A statistic does not set out to prove a truth, it proves a statement"

Remembering that. I wonder what the percentage of college prof's that don't wear matching socks is/was.:p :p

No, I dont own an oliver bread slicer. YET!!!!!! The oliver bread slicers are so good that every boutique bakery who knows about them wants one. There is a block of missing serial numbers in the oliver machine line up. The numbers go up to 99xxx and then restart at 200xxx. That missing block of serial numbers is not missing. Those were allocated for the bread slicers which actually used the same red eagle nameplates that went on woodworking machines. There were a few models of bread slicer and I have run into a few of them. I like this one and I have yet to find one of these for sale. Found a few of them but the owners would not part with them at all. I even offered one guy a brand new made in china machine. I am not allowed to post his response. There is a lesson to be learned here by manufacturers.

[Dale Thompson]

That is funny, just like when you take a price of $10 and you want a mark up of 25% it is not $12.50 but $13.33, or at least that is the way we do it in Japan, $10 divided by 75% (10[FONT=Symbol]/[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]0.75).

so 10 lbs plus 10% minus 10% is 9.9lbs.

Cheers!

not sure, statistically, who it is. :confused:

Stu,
I vote for the $12.50 in the first answer and agree with the 9.9lbs. in the second. Dividing by .75 is the same as multiplying by 1.3333333. That would be a 33% increase instead of a 25% increase? :confused: DUH. What do I know?? :o

Dale T.

[Matt Warfield]

Sure thing. A 25% markup on $10 is $12.50. Now if you're talking about margin then you'd divide by .75 to get $13.33.

Yeah, I know what you're thinkin' and yes, I bore myself too. :D

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Well I was speaking Japanese at the time, so you have to allow for the translation.....:rolleyes:

Margin, ya, that's the ticket.... :D

[Frank Chaffee]

Wow people,
All this markup vs. margin talk reminds me why I leave financial stuff to my brother with the MBA, and for myself to focus on keeping my fingers out of the paths of bandsaw and tablesaw blades.
Batting 1000 so far (and don’t go asking me where the decimal point should be…that’s statistics again).
Frank

[Dale Thompson]

Well I was speaking Japanese at the time, so you have to allow for the translation.
Margin, ya, that's the ticket....

Stu,
No problem! :D At least now I know why our trade deficit with the folks in Japan is so far in the negative, statistically speaking! :eek: You guys sell us 125,000 Hondas and we pay for 133,000! :( ;)

That's the way I like to do business. :) Do you have any openings for someone who has no skills at ANYTHING? :o :) WELLLL! I shouldn't say that. I'm REALLY good looking! ;) :cool:

Margin really IS the ticket! I just bought 100,000 shares of Enron today and the door-to-door salesman only charged me a 5% margin. Come to think of it, maybe I AM more than just a pretty face!! :cool:

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

Batting 1000 so far (and don’t go asking me where the decimal point should be…that’s statistics again).
Frank

Hey Arena,
If you are talking batting average, the decimal should go right after the 1. :)
Baseball arbitrarily chose to go with three decimal places to define their averages. Therefore, if you went 9 for 11, your average would be 818 or, actually .818. If Mr. Doubleday had chosen to go with four decimal places, your average would be a whopping 8,181 or .8181. :eek:

Just what you always wanted to know, eh? ;) :)

Dale T.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Dale, this "Baseball" thing, is this a sport or something...?:p

Baseball just has too much math in it!!

:D

[Frank Chaffee]

Ole,
I have done a lot of cutting on some of the crummiest tablesaws, radial arm saws, and bandsaws out there, with no safety tips or training from experienced users beforehand. Of those three saws I feel that the bandsaw offers the most forgiving learning curve.

I decided to get a circular saw to cut some plywood at work. I had never used one before. I over-reached on a 4 ft crosscut and the saw rode up out of the kerf and came back at me. Fortunately that was before I got in the habit of holding the guard open with a cut masonry nail.

Now that I discover I am still alive, I clamp my head to the wash basin and run my toothbrush in a guide.

Frank

[Frank Chaffee]

Hey Arena,
If you are talking batting average, the decimal should go right after the 1. Therefore, if you went 9 for 11, your average would be 818 or, actually .818…
Just what you always wanted to know, eh?
Dale T.
Well Dale,
I’ve got my 1/16th thru 1/64ths down, and I know my 1/12ths down to the big bobs and little bobs, and I am working on 1/7ths, but darn man, I don’t think I’m going to live long enough to learn 1/11ths.
Thanks,
Frank

[Dale Thompson]

Dale, this "Baseball" thing, is this a sport or something...? Baseball just has too much math in it!!

Hey Stu,
Don't even TRY to understand baseball. They don't have a salary cap and that REALLY complicates the statistical analyses required to place a "statistically valid" bet. :( Anyway, statistics prove that once you understand a game well enough to make a profit on your wagers, they will come up with another, even more statistically challenging, game. :( Who knows, they might even call it some stupid name like "Football". :eek: EGADS! They may even use a ball shaped, statistically, like a truncated ellipse! Now THAT'S a REAL laugher!! :D

Stu, if you are as smart as I think you are, you will get yourself a lathe. :) BEWARE, HOWEVER!!! Statistics show that persons who purchase a lathe, learn how to sharpen their chisels and learn how to use the skew are 78% more likely to become addicted to the lathe than those who only perform step one of this statistically substantiated sentence. :eek:

Statistics from LAA (Lathe Addicts Anonymous) show that less than 7% of lathe addicts can be cured. The "Cocobola Patch" has the best statistical success rate at 3.9786532%. :) The rest have been miraculously cured by chewing on chunks of Purpleheart, Tulipwood, Zebrawood, Kingwood, Bloodwood, Padauk, Wenge and Dandelion Stems. :) As far as I know, there is no statistical data showing which of the above is the most effective, statistically! :confused: :D

Good Luck!

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

I don’t think I’m going to live long enough to learn 1/11ths.
Thanks,
Frank

Hey Arena,
You missed the boat, man! ;) I learned my 1/11ths FIRST and quit while I was ahead! :cool: :)

Dale T.

[John Bailey]

Chicken or Egg??

Wisconsin or Turner??

There is some weirdness over there!!:confused:

And no matter the answer, is Benton Falls, ME a part of Wisconsin?

John

[Frank Hagan]

Ole,
In the countless millennia that I have been working with tools, I would have to admit that I have lost more blood to "slipping" screwdrivers and "poorly directed" pocket knives than I have to all of the power tools in my shop COMBINED! :o :eek: :)

Of course, that may change if we ever get electricity up here in the northwoods! ;) :)

Dale T.

Me too. In fact, on the website linked, the second "Bandsaw" accident is reported as this: "Got a deep cut in my finger using the chisel which I had just sharpened. Was holding the piece in one hand and the chisel in the other." Maybe he was using the bandsaw as the table while he held the chisel? In any case, there's at least one of those "self reported" injuries attributed to the bandsaw that had nothing to do with a bandsaw.

These types of things are instructive to help us remember to be careful, and it is interesting to read through people's descriptions of the incidents. As Jim said, the most dangerous tool is the one you are using. But I wouldn't say that this type of thing is in any way statistically valid to make you choose between one or the other.

I'm sure there are stats from the CDC, EPA or OSHA that track injuries per man-hour of use for various tools. Anyone know of any out there?

[Dale Thompson]

[QUOTE=John Bailey: Is Benton Falls, ME a part of Wisconsin? John[/QUOTE]

John,
Regretably, Benton Falls, ME, is not a part of Wisconsin. :( I'm surprised at your question in that MI is reputed to have a very high level of academic savvy. :)

History 101 is very plain in stating that, "All communities, when established, are part of Wisconsin! In addition, all individuals, when born, are residents of Wisconsin! However, when the community or the individual makes their FIRST mistake, regardless of how minor, they are banished to other States, Provinces, Nations or even Continents!" ;) :) :D

Such is life, such is the price of imperfection and such is the statistical randomness of the, "flying fickle finger of fate". :eek: :cool: Sorry! ;) :)

Dale T.

[Frank Chaffee]

Hey Arena,
You missed the boat, man! ;) I learned my 1/11ths FIRST and quit while I was ahead! :cool: :)

Dale T.
Trick question, Pesh!... but good shot, and I’m sure I won’t be ready for the next one either.
But that’s OK, just wait for my rebuttal to your “perfect ellipse” with string construction method.
Tee Hee!
Frank

[Steve Schoene]

half the population is below the mean level in mathematics comprehension anyway. ;)

- Vaughn

Actually, half the population is below the median level of mathematics comprehension, which is exactly the point you are making. :)

[Vaughn McMillan]

Actually, half the population is below the median level of mathematics comprehension, which is exactly the point you are making. :)
Good catch, Steve. I'm the first to admit I'm mathematically illiterate. :p Pretty decent at real-world cipherin' but book math always escaped me. :)

- Vaughn

[John Bailey]

Dale,

Sorry for the mistake Dale, I stand corrected.

What happened to the western U.P.? They still seem to be in Wisconsin.

John

[Dale Thompson]

What happened to the western U.P.? They still seem to be in Wisconsin. John

John,
Regrettably, the western U.P. is banished! :( One of dem dere Yoopers shot a forty-tree point buck. He made the mistake of registering it as only a forty pointer 'cause his buddy and him plum ran out of fingers and toes when countin' da points! :o :( It'z a durn shame, ifn ya ask ME!! :mad: ;) :cool: :)

Dale T.