More heat pump trouble

[Tom M King]

I was over at the rental house, the one I replaced the capacitor in a few days ago, and when I checked the thermostat to see what the temperature was in the house, I noticed the Aux heat was on. Being warm enough outside that it shouldn't be on AUX, I went outside and saw that the outside unit wasn't running. The fan was running inside.

Knowing that it has operated like it was supposed to after I replaced the cap, I opened up the air handler to see if there was anything obvious. There was.
A no.10 wire showed signs of arcing and was loose from its connector.

Other units here are major brand names, and I have been very impressed looking in them. This one had a Tempstar outside unit, and the inside air handler was something that started with TOR but I don't remember the other. It was not a name I had seen before. I expect whenever this unit was replaced the owners went with the cheapest bid. It was just a jumble of wires, and no consideration had been made, like in the major brand ones, for being able to get to anything to do testing.

The offending wire was on a piggyback connector on the out side of the contactor controlled by the thermostat. I decided to fix it, and see if it went back to work.
The no.10 wire had been soldered to a connector end for the next size smaller wire. It was on the extra lug on the piggyback connector that was still on the lug of the contactor, and the fan wire on that connector was fine.

I didn't have any piggyback connectors, never having needed one before, so I went to town to find one. None in town either for no.10 wire. I made one by cutting up the smaller one.

It's working like it should, but I ordered the correct size dual connectors, and will change it back out when they come.

Renters are coming to stay there through Christmas, and more through New Years. I hope it will last until the new connectors come.

When I changed that cap, it wasn't shot completely, but was only good for 15 microfarads whereas the unit called for 45. I expect that wire heated up enough to melt the solder out of the connection with the motors taking longer to get going with the weak cap.

I wish I could buy a major name brand for when I can replace the whole system before the Summer season, but can only do that if I get pros to do the install. I've been unimpressed by work I've seen by pros around here so far.

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[Bruce Wrenn]

Tom, let me recommend Goodman units, which you can purchase wholesale thru HD Supply. If you haven't sign up with them, as they often run 10% off sales.Then find a local installer to install unit. Because you are in NC, you can do self install, and still have warranty. Main thing is if old unit is R-22, you will need to vacuum down lines before removing, and sweep with nitrogen to get rid of old oil that may still be inside. Units come with enough 410-A for 15 feet of line. If your run is longer, you will need to weigh in additional R410-A. You will need no more than a couple pounds. Unfortunately, as of Jan1 2021, you need a EPA licensee to buy bulk R410-A. There are online sources for both school and test for this licensee. Local community college most likely also offers this course

[Tom M King]

Thanks Bruce. I'm probably going to go with a Goodman. Will probably be a quarter of the cost, or less, of getting a pro to install a major name brand. That's what my scientist friend replaced the one in their house with. This Tempstar outside unit seems like it's fairly well made, but don't trust that with this air handler that is just a piece of junk.

Fortunately, other units here are Trane, Carrier, and Lennox. I've never looked inside the Lennox units, but expect they're well made too. This will be our only remaining offbrand, so Goodman will probably be an upgrade from this one.

I have all the equipment you mentioned, including a Nitrogen tank setup, and a recovery pump and 410a recovery tank that has not been contaminated, as well as anything else to do HVAC work on heat pumps. I'm pretty well equipped to do anything required, and have a tank of 410a. Fieldpiece and Appion should know me by name.

This unit is a 2011, so it is 410a. I feel like I'm more of a stickler for not releasing refrigerant to the atmosphere than what pro's I've seen, who seem to be pretty cavalier about it.

I can do the install, and have a pro account at Supplyhouse, so I get a discount there, which is where my friends bought theirs.

[Jim Becker]

Tom, If I'm not mistaken, Goodman and Amana are joined at the him or something like that. Same gear; different label and different price.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Tom, If I'm not mistaken, Goodman and Amana are joined at the him or something like that. Same gear; different label and different price.Goodman now owns Amana. They also have a trade line at HD Supply, just can't recall the name right now. From exterior, units look the same, just different name tags.

[Tom M King]

I'm thinking of just changing that air handler to a Goodman, that I can get for $900 from Supplyhouse, and see if I can get another few years out of the outside unit. Most of the work will be in changing the air handler, up in a tight attic having to redo ducts on both ends. I'll have a few weeks with no rentals in January, so can take my time and do that then. If the compressor fails, it will be a fairly quick job to swap out the outside unit.

Just don't want to lose any of the high season Summer rent, but it seems like a reasonable gamble. That house has two systems in it, and can get by with one fan running and the other unit producing heat or air.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Goodman-ARUF29B14-Goodman-2-2-5-Ton-Multi-Position-Air-Handler?_br_psugg_q=goodman+air+handler

The outside unit is a Tempstar, and doesn't seem too bad. The air handler looks like something whoever put the system in cobbled together.

I'm glad to hear that Goodman is okay stuff. My scientist friend replaced one at their house with a Goodman, and they've been pleased with it.

[Bill George]

I'm thinking of just changing that air handler to a Goodman, that I can get for $900 from Supplyhouse, and see if I can get another few years out of the outside unit. Most of the work will be in changing the air handler, up in a tight attic having to redo ducts on both ends. I'll have a few weeks with no rentals in January, so can take my time and do that then. If the compressor fails, it will be a fairly quick job to swap out the outside unit.

Just don't want to lose any of the high season Summer rent, but it seems like a reasonable gamble. That house has two systems in it, and can get by with one fan running and the other unit producing heat or air.

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Goodman-ARUF29B14-Goodman-2-2-5-Ton-Multi-Position-Air-Handler?_br_psugg_q=goodman+air+handler

The outside unit is a Tempstar, and doesn't seem too bad. The air handler looks like something whoever put the system in cobbled together.

I'm glad to hear that Goodman is okay stuff. My scientist friend replaced one at their house with a Goodman, and they've been pleased with it.

Speaking from over 35 years in the commercial HVAC/R business you need to replace both units at the same time with the same brand. I have seen to many cobbled up installs to tell you any different. Around here that is the only way to get the Rebates and the energy efficiency rating. I have both Trane and Goodman, Trane is much better quality but the other gets the job done.

[George Yetka]

Speaking from over 35 years in the commercial HVAC/R business you need to replace both units at the same time with the same brand. I have seen to many cobbled up installs to tell you any different. Around here that is the only way to get the Rebates and the energy efficiency rating. I have both Trane and Goodman, Trane is much better quality but the other gets the job done.

Bill Im sure thats true but I dont know why they would let you with Acoil replacent only. As a diy homeowner if you have someone coming out to pull charge and recharge I would get a new furnace. Let them pull the charge then do the swap on your own then call him back to vacuum and charge system. Everything but the refrigerant charges can be done with $50 worth of tools

[Tom M King]

I won't have anyone coming out to do anything. I have everything I need here. Won't even need to make a phone call.

It's a vacation rental with deductible very low electricity bill anyway, so payback by any rebates versus what it costs here to get anyone to come do anything would probably be never.

I bought two 25 lb. tanks of R410a for 128 each right after the pandemic started. Only used a few pounds to replace lost charge in a pro installed system that I had to replace the lineset on. I figured there would be no telling where prices would go on anything. That was right after I paid a pro 400 to put a half pound in a system I had him put in a few months earlier. His install. His leak. What really made me mad was that he wrote up his bill like he was giving me a discount.

[Bill George]

Bill Im sure thats true but I dont know why they would let you with Acoil replacent only. As a diy homeowner if you have someone coming out to pull charge and recharge I would get a new furnace. Let them pull the charge then do the swap on your own then call him back to vacuum and charge system. Everything but the refrigerant charges can be done with $50 worth of tools

George the inside HP unit is far more than an A-Coil its the air handler, controls, relays and more. I mostly worked in the commercial HVAC/R side and I loved it following up the non-union unskilled jobs! No I did not work with the eBay Chinese made tools and recovery machines, I had thousands invested in quality tools.

[Tom M King]

Fieldpiece and Appion should know me by name. I own a Harbor Freight 1/2" breaker bar, but can't think of any other cheap Chinese tools right off.

[Bill George]

Fieldpiece and Appion should know me by name. I own a Harbor Freight 1/2" breaker bar, but can't think of any other cheap Chinese tools right off.

Fluke is all I use and most of the wholesalers in town know me by name but a lot of the guys are retiring and some have died off. I did get both my Mini split and my Trane 96% with ECM motor at wholesale prices and then got the rebates also! The rebates came from our power company and I had to document the energy efficiency. That price on R410a is way low, are you sure its not a counterfeit refrigerant. A lot of that out there and who knows how much moisture and non-condensables it has?

[Tom M King]

It tests fine for pressure and temperature, and the Trane that I had to replace the lineset on works like a new one with a full charge of it. It's been several years since I bought it. It seems to be okay.

I didn't know that Fluke made linesets, recovery machines, and such. I have some of their multi-meters, but never saw anything else by Fluke.

I'm not sure that our power company even offers rebates, but the electricity bill at that house has never been over 300 a month, and that was with a house full of people in it. Just by luck, it's super insulated. It was originally some sort of agricultural building, and had walls built inside of that. Walls are 16" thick, and there is at least 2' of blown in insulation in the attic. It's both warm and quiet.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not sure that our power company even offers rebates

The rebates or incentives may be different from state to state.

jtk

[Allan Dozier]

Looks like a good plan. I'm going through similar with one of our rental houses. Got a 3 head Mini-split being delivered Tuesday. Going to replace an LP fired package unit that is costing the tenants half as much as their rent to heat with. I plan on going ahead and taking the 608 exam next month just so I can easily purchase any extra refrigerant. I have 20 lb bottles of 134A and 404A but will eventually need some 410A it looks like.

[Bill George]

The rebates or incentives may be different from state to state.

jtk

If you don't know you need to find out, I saved hundreds of dollars. It was even a Federal tax credit for a while.

[Tom M King]

I checked yesterday, and rebates here are just on buying appliances. Nothing about heat pumps.

[Bill George]

I checked yesterday, and rebates here are just on buying appliances. Nothing about heat pumps.

Really?
https://www.webhvac.com/2015/03/hvac-rebate-programs-for-north-carolina-homeowners/

https://elizabethcitync.gov/index.asp?SEC=3EDE79A3-56B1-4FDA-B4CA-41B79CD5F79B&DE=C251DA70-438E-4681-A723-AC6A8D14B00E

https://www.halifaxemc.com/energy-efficiency/rebates-loans/heat-pump-rebate/

https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/heat-pumps/heat-pump-federal-tax-credits-and-state-rebates-a5223992000/

https://www.newbernnc.gov/departments/utilities/electric/energy_rebate_program.php

https://www.hvac.com/resources/inflation-reduction-act-heat-pump-rebates/

[Tom M King]

Thanks. I'll look at it. I did glance through the links, but looks like Federal rebates would be tax credits and based on income relative to median in the area. I'll look some more, but also it's really commercial property owned by an LLC legally. Looks complicated for this application, and looks like it wouldn't be much at best.

Dominion Power here, and high end waterfront rental property in probably the poorest surrounding area in the state. Other than the lake, there's not much in the surrounding area, including industry, or population. Probably half of the county is on Social Services income. Property tax at the lake pays for everything else.

There is a group of 10 adults in there over Christmas, and we haven't heard a thing out of them, so this temporary fix must be holding.

[Bill George]

Never heard of Rebates tied to income. They are based on energy savings and generally speaking you have to put in a matched pair to get the max savings. A lot of DIY installs don't quality as they are not certified to be installers and you need to have the CFC certification in most cases.

[Tom M King]

Thanks for all the effort, Bill. All diminishing returns for this particular situation though. Merry Christmas.

[Jim Becker]

Never heard of Rebates tied to income.

Utility rebates are not, AFAIK, but Tom specified Federal Tax Credit in post 19 which I presume you were replying to and tax credits often have certain requirements for income or other factors.

[Lee Schierer]

Some of the rebates don't apply if you are replacing an existing heat pump with a newer model. We managed to miss the very first tax credit for heat pumps by just a few weeks. When we replaced that unit25 years later, ther4e was no tax credit. After that unit died and we installed our current unit, the tax credit was very small.

[Jim Becker]

I just asked for a $300 rebate from our power company for the shop mini split, but I'm not sure if I'll get it or not because of the brand/model and self install. Time will tell...

[Bill George]

I just asked for a $300 rebate from our power company for the shop mini split, but I'm not sure if I'll get it or not because of the brand/model and self install. Time will tell...

Did you get it all installed and how does it work? They need to see it running and check out the equipment nameplates?

I wonder how to claim for my solar install with the IRS?

[Jim Becker]

Did you get it all installed and how does it work? They need to see it running and check out the equipment nameplates.



Bill, as I noted, the MrCool is a DIY install. It works fine. The don't need to "see it running" and our local utility doesn't have the resources to send people out on those kinds of field trips. They do need the model numbers and there are provisions for that on the form.

[Allan Dozier]

Like Tom, I haven't thoroughly investigated either but the one program going into effect this coming year (I think the inflation reduction act) does limit your reward according to how your income compares to the surrounding community. It effectively eliminates Tom and me. The Duke Energy rebate deal requires you to use one of the approved commercial installers on their list. Cuts us out again. The state of NC says there are no state rebates. But I will be talking with my accountant in January as usual and will ask what might be available.

[Tom M King]

This just popped up on a search for something else on Amazon. Looks to have better conductivity than the cheap piggyback connectors.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancor-230613-Electrical-Male-Female-Adapter/dp/B000NI1G0C/ref=pd_bxgy_sccl_2/135-2219350-2133203?pd_rd_w=Wu90x&content-id=amzn1.sym.7f0cf323-50c6-49e3-b3f9-63546bb79c92&pf_rd_p=7f0cf323-50c6-49e3-b3f9-63546bb79c92&pf_rd_r=YETEFDMCBXG3EMG15CBG&pd_rd_wg=m6GJd&pd_rd_r=90cd884c-f69a-432b-8bf1-6023bb39430f&pd_rd_i=B000NI1G0C&psc=1#customerReviews

[Bill George]

This just popped up on a search for something else on Amazon. Looks to have better conductivity than the cheap piggyback connectors.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancor-230613-Electrical-Male-Female-Adapter/dp/B000NI1G0C/ref=pd_bxgy_sccl_2/135-2219350-2133203?pd_rd_w=Wu90x&content-id=amzn1.sym.7f0cf323-50c6-49e3-b3f9-63546bb79c92&pf_rd_p=7f0cf323-50c6-49e3-b3f9-63546bb79c92&pf_rd_r=YETEFDMCBXG3EMG15CBG&pd_rd_wg=m6GJd&pd_rd_r=90cd884c-f69a-432b-8bf1-6023bb39430f&pd_rd_i=B000NI1G0C&psc=1#customerReviews

When I was working in the field running service and found one of those burnt up, I just ran a heavy wire from the contactor or relay connected using a ring terminal and then wire nutted or crimped the other wires to it. We never used the cheap connectors it was always a heavy duty ones like T&B, those better grade ones I now get from local Home Depot or here https://www.supplyhouse.com/Terminals-Crimps-19707000 They used push on connectors because they are faster to install at the factory, not because they are better.

Speaking of rebates, I guess I was lucky enough to live in a forward-thinking state that rewarded energy savings and having Mid-American as our power company. They are owned by Warren Buffet and 37% of our power is either from wind or solar.