Hide Glue in Your Cupbord?

[Jim Koepke]

Though it may be mixed with sugar and food coloring.

Gummy bears and gummy worms were used to make a hide glue and it seems to work.

It is the subject of two posts, first the trial:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2022/12/15/hide-glue-from-the-gas-station/

Followed by the result:

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2022/12/19/early-results-of-the-gummy-bear-glue/

Looks like it might be a way to come up with a little glue for the shop. Stores still sell gelatin like Knox Gelatin. I used to have a neighbor who mixed it up as a drink to make her nails stronger. Not sure if it worked, but this was back in the 1950s.

jtk

[John Keeton]

I admit this is really intriguing, but I can’t help but think - “is it only body heat and the moisture in the innards that keeps one from getting an horrendous case of constipation????”

Granular hide glue is pretty cheap, so I will probably stick with that. I’m afraid my grandkids would quickly consume my “gummies” if I switch!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Gummy bears sound like a much tastier place to start than fish skin. One of my bow making books tells about a Native American glue recipe that starts with the chewing of a mouthful of Sturgeon body parts for a day or two. It was considered a big honor and the Tribe Matriarch was responsible for teaching the youngsters to make fish glue.

[Daniel Culotta]

I read these too, and grabbed a couple of packets of Knox gelatin at the store to try to make liquid glue with (water, gelatin, salt). I don’t think it’ll be cheap enough to make it worth a wholesale switch, but good to know in a pinch if it works, plus a fun experiment. I’ll report back with results.

[Chuck Hill]

Granular hide glue is pretty cheap, so I will probably stick with that. I’m afraid my grandkids would quickly consume my “gummies” if I switch!

Save money by giving them the granular glue to chew on! "Grandpa's candy taste awful!"

[John Keeton]

Save money by giving them the granular glue to chew on! "Grandpa's candy taste awful!"Chuck, all I gotta do is throw in a bit of sugar and it should be fine!!

[Jim Koepke]

I admit this is really intriguing, but I can’t help but think - “is it only body heat and the moisture in the innards that keeps one from getting an horrendous case of constipation????”

Granular hide glue is pretty cheap, so I will probably stick with that. I’m afraid my grandkids would quickly consume my “gummies” if I switch!

If you have Amazon Prime, this may be cheaper if it is all you need > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IE65OI4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1

If you purchase 5 pounds, it is a bit cheaper.

The big difference is with commercial hide glue there is going to be a strength rating, the food grade gelatin will not have such a rating.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Granular hide glue is pretty cheap, so I will probably stick with that. I’m afraid my grandkids would quickly consume my “gummies” if I switch![/QUOTE] John Keeton

A couple of old timers I worked with would only use real hide glue bought in flakes . Not the ground up kind. Like wine-0’s ,they wanted to
see the clarity. But the rabbit glue clearly has the best clarity. Was bought in sheets that looked like textured plastic.

[Jim Koepke]

Granular hide glue is pretty cheap, so I will probably stick with that. I’m afraid my grandkids would quickly consume my “gummies” if I switch! John Keeton

A couple of old timers I worked with would only use real hide glue bought in flakes . Not the ground up kind. Like wine-0’s ,they wanted to
see the clarity. But the rabbit glue clearly has the best clarity. Was bought in sheets that looked like textured plastic.[/QUOTE]

Rabbit skin glue is used (or used to be) by people doing gold leaf on many non-glass surfaces. On glass a gelitan capsule was melted in hot water. That would be enough to hold it on glass.

I believe rabbit skin glue is also used on glass to cause it to chip. When the glue shrinks it pulls off hunks of glass. Years ago you might see this at a bank counter.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

I’ve thought about trying hide glue on pinned M&T joinery. Thanks for the reminder.

[John Keeton]

If you have Amazon Prime, this may be cheaper if it is all you need > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IE65OI4/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1

If you purchase 5 pounds, it is a bit cheaper.

The big difference is with commercial hide glue there is going to be a strength rating, the food grade gelatin will not have such a rating.

jtkJim, I pay about $19 shipped for 192 granular hide glue. I can get about 16-17 chairs out of a pound.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I've experimented with avocado as a glue. The genesis of the idea was trying to get dried avocado off dishes and utensils. I build string instruments and of course work with hot hide glue. The avocado experiment was pretty successful, though tongue-in-cheek.

[Rob Luter]

Jim, I pay about $19 shipped for 192 granular hide glue. I can get about 16-17 chairs out of a pound.

I understand that hide glue is the historically accurate sticky stuff for chairs but in retrospect I’ve repaired a whole bunch of antique chairs where the glue dried out and the joints let go. The solution was always to disassemble, scrape, and reglue with PVA. Is there an advantage to hide glue other than historical accuracy and a generous open time?

[Mel Fulks]

I think the only things really requiring hide glue are music instruments. Especially the bowed instruments. They say the makers would
glue the backs on with strong glue and the tops with weaker glue. Bowed instruments are usually opened at top ,not back, when needing
improvement while being tested by the maker ,or for repair.

[Jim Koepke]

Another update from LAP on the gummy glue > https://blog.lostartpress.com/2022/12/29/gummy-worm-glue-update/

jtk

[John Keeton]

I understand that hide glue is the historically accurate sticky stuff for chairs but in retrospect I’ve repaired a whole bunch of antique chairs where the glue dried out and the joints let go. The solution was always to disassemble, scrape, and reglue with PVA. Is there an advantage to hide glue other than historical accuracy and a generous open time?
Rob, for me the choice of using hide glue involved a lot of factors. Authenticity was probably first, but I have grown to like the ease of use and the quick “grab” although that does present its own issues. Having a glue pot and glue brush available throughout the assembly process is convenient. Nearly every joint on a Windsor is wedged or pinned, except the stretchers and they are under compression due to the method of assembly. I’m not saying a failure is impossible, but I would have to think it would be exceedingly rare.

[John K Jordan]

I think the only things really requiring hide glue are music instruments. ...

Pianos too. When I rebuilt an antique player piano I found out a big advantage to using hide glue was to make it repairable, especially the many bellows. On some joints I used an old clothes iron to heat the wood to and separate the part or heat the old bellows cloth to remove peal it off the wood. My player piano “mentor” said if I used hide glue to put everything back together someone else could rebuild it 100 years later.

As for bowed instruments, my son started learning the cello in 4th grade in a school music program. The top of his first cello (1/4 or 1/2 size maybe) was broken when his grandmother fell on it (she was OK!) The local stringed instrument guy removed the front, fixed the break, and put it back together good as new except for a cosmetic change. When we bought the next size up we gave the repaired one to the school so they could loan it to a kid who otherwise wouldn’t have one - that was 30 years ago and who knows, maybe it’s still being used!

Perhaps of interest: the grade school stringed instrument music program was started by the father of Edgar Meyer, the famous bassist. (There is nothing more horrible AND more joyful than listening to a Christmas concert by an orchestra of fourth graders who had just a few months experience!) When he came to town Edgar was kind enough to spend some time with the few high school cello and bass players who stuck with the program - what a guy.

JKJ

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have a $5 yard sale cello waiting to be repaired. Some one who did not know better glued it with Elmers. Its value has been severely compromised. I hope to show it to a more experienced repair man and get some guidance. It is nice solid wood. I hope it can be saved. While I get up my courage, I am looking for a thrift store / yard sale, tiny crock pot or coffee cup warmer to make into a glue pot

[Rob Luter]

Rob, for me the choice of using hide glue involved a lot of factors. Authenticity was probably first, but I have grown to like the ease of use and the quick “grab” although that does present its own issues. Having a glue pot and glue brush available throughout the assembly process is convenient. Nearly every joint on a Windsor is wedged or pinned, except the stretchers and they are under compression due to the method of assembly. I’m not saying a failure is impossible, but I would have to think it would be exceedingly rare.

I agree with your points. I've made a couple of pieces where all the joints were of those types and no glue was used at all. That was mostly to see if I could pull it off. It worked well. That said, they were static pieces and other than a foot stool none would bear any loads.

On those chair repairs I've made, no joints were wedged or pinned. Most all were tapered tenons. Much of my work involves wedged or pinned tenons. I like the look and the utility. In those cases I think the open time of Hide Glue would be helpful. Sometimes it's a race against the clock with PVA. I've also heard that Hide Glue doesn't swell the joints like PVA, and actually acts as a lubricant of sorts easing assembly. True in your experience?

[John Keeton]

Rob, there is a bit of "lubrication" with the hide glue, but as I mentioned it also has a serious "grab" to it. I mark all joints for alignment and my experience is that if one fails to seat properly aligned, it is very difficult to correct that. Any hope of doing so will vanish quickly if not attempted immediately.

So, the take away is to take one's time and make sure the assembly is correctly aligned prior to driving the piece home. I use a dead blow hammer to seat my joints as I find it works well with minimal force.

When I measure for stretcher length, I measure from the bottom of the holes with the legs tightly dry fitted in the seat. So, there is compression in those joints that occurs when the fully glued and assembled undercarriage is finally seated into the seat. Barring a broken leg or stretcher I see little chance of failure in those joints, and as I indicated all other joints with any stress on them are wedged or pinned, as well as some that have no stress. A well assembled Windsor is really a masterful piece of work as far as being light in weight yet incredibly durable.

[Mel Fulks]

Sound post post. Consumer Reports mag. probably had least two write-ups about the danger of using sound posts. But I’m
just guessing , could be more. The one I read was “ Sound Posts and POST MORTEMS …it suggested the use of collapsible sound posts.

[John Keeton]

Mel, I am missing something - sound posts?? Enlighten me.

[Mel Fulks]

John , You would probably get a better explanation from some graffiti ! All I know is the bowed instruments have had posts ,without glue,
used between the two “plates”, for centuries, didn’t take long for the first builders to figure it out . They are put in a particular area ,but
sometimes moved slightly to find the spot that makes the instrument sound its best. The only explanation I’ve heard for what they do is
the posts make the top and bottom play in sync. They are installed by being stuck on a tool that is manipulated through the “f holes” .

[John Keeton]

Mel, actually that makes a lot of sense! I just didn’t connect the dots to the discussion of instruments earlier. Thanks!!!

[Chuck Hill]

That makes perfect sense!

[Rob Luter]

Rob, there is a bit of "lubrication" with the hide glue, but as I mentioned it also has a serious "grab" to it. I mark all joints for alignment and my experience is that if one fails to seat properly aligned, it is very difficult to correct that. Any hope of doing so will vanish quickly if not attempted immediately........

I wonder if this is the case with the Liquid Hide Glue product from Franklin Tightbond (http://www.titebond.com/product/glues/9e9995b4-08eb-4fc6-8254-c47daa20f8ed)? They claim "slow set/long open times". If I do venture into the Hide Glue world that's likely the direction I'd go anyway. I need a glue pot like a hole in the head.

[Rafael Herrera]

FYI

Old Brown Glue
https://oldbrownglue.com/index.php

[Mel Fulks]

The liquid hide glue is real sloww …set. So slow that one should glue up a couple of samples to test . It has a chemical that makes it slow.
Some will not use it , for that reason, and a fear that the chemical could alter durability. It’s easy to mix the old type hide glue in a crock-pot,
that has a thermostat. You can also use “double boiler” set up with good cooking thermometer.
Some say the thermostats in both the real glue pots and Crock Pots can’t be trusted.

[John Keeton]

I need a glue pot like a hole in the head.Rob, I have a Hold Heet Glue Pot - the copper, 220 volt version. I use a plastic pill bottle like one would get a prescription in to mix my hide glue. The glue pot has a "bucket" with a bail on it into which I put in enough water that will heat the glue, but not float the pill bottle. If I get interrupted in an assembly I just take the bottle into the house and put it in the fridge. It is a quick process to heat it up again, and when I am done I simply rinse out the pill bottle with hot water. Been using the same pill bottle for the 14 chairs I have built. There is never any glue in the glue pot - just water.

[Mel Fulks]

I just remembered that Ive heard that the thermostats in electric glue pots are known ,by some, to be fragile, so I would definitely keep a
good thermometer around.

[Jim Koepke]

I just remembered that Ive heard that the thermostats in electric glue pots are known ,by some, to be fragile, so I would definitely keep a good thermometer around.

What temperature range would be good to keep the glue flowing?

A darkroom thermometer might work if the temp is below ~160ºF or 70ºC.

jtk

[John Keeton]

I have heard that, too, Mel. The Hold Heet pot is apparently out of production, but I do keep an eye on mine and I can get a good sense of the temp whenever I take out the plastic bottle. It is never too hot to handle. I remove it for various phases of an assembly and put it back in the water between times.