Hand tools for gothic windows.

[John Northowl]

First post here. Sorry if I am lost. When I finished trade school last year I built a window for a final project. A scaled down reproduction of a gothic window in my town (still around 4' x 5' mind). I attached an image for reference. If I may be so insolent, I have many questions. The window is basically made up of larger bends with a curved and beveled profile, smaller in-between branches and then some interior curves which I only got half finished.
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I have thought a lot of how I built it, and the tools I used and wondered how historically it would have been built and what tools.
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First, What tool would have been used to create curved beveled profile 4-6" in section? My compass plane was only really able to be used for finishing the profile not really creating it. So mostly I used a fret saw and a mechanical jig saw, which worked reasonable well. The compass plane had me wishing for something like a curved bottom scrub plane? Coping was reasonable with the fret saw and files, so that part seemed someone viable.

And then lastly, the tighter curves. It took ages with my fret saw and files. Was there some other tool that would have made this process simpler/faster? After hacking away with a fret saw, I tried with a Veritas curved bottom spoke shave but that did not work. Meaning a lot of filing, which seemed sub-optimal.

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Lastly. The larger members are bent lamination from 1/4" strips ripped on the table saw. There was no way I could see someone ripping all those strips with hand tools. So would the larger curves have all been cut rather than bent? (seemed like a big waste to do it that way).

So if you made it this far I guess Im wondering. Did craftspeople who made these windows have vastly different tool sets to the hand tools of the 20th c.? As in, the compass plane, jack plane, fret saw, file, scraper, spoke shave all worked but seemed somewhat outsized by the larger members.

Sorry for both the length, and if this post does not fit the ethos of this sub-forum.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy John and welcome to the Creek. I think this is the best forum for you question(s).

In centuries past artisans and workers of all kinds had tools we only find occasionally today.

A lot of the ornamentation on the pieces of your window design could have been done with a scratch stock. The tool is actually easy to make in the home shop. Stanley and other makers produced a couple of versions. The Stanley #66 is somewhat common:

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The Stanley #69 is less common:

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There also were specialized spokeshaves for cutting rabbets/rebates and other shapes on flat and curved surfaces.

Often listed on ebay and other sites are coach maker's planes for making curved moldings.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Curved work was common in the past for ships, coaches, musical instruments, wheels, casks and such. Steam and hot water bending goes back to the Viking era. For your type tasks a large coarse tooth bow saw, draw knives, spoke shaves and coach makers planes and scratch stocks to me seem the most likely candidates. If you find some truly old work and get a close look the work may not be as fine as it looks from a distance. There is no doubt that if you wish to make truly fine work you will have to spend the time with files and sanding devices. Remember that the ones who made these in the past could make a plane or a scratch stock if they had the need to justify a dedicated tool.
Jim

[Tom M King]

Welcome John.

There are all manner of "Sash Shaves" that were used on curved sash parts. https://www.oldtools.co.uk/products/old-edward-preston-double-ovolo-sash-shave

Hopefully, Warren will come along with some information for you. He is a lifelong student of the old ways.

I reproduce old stuff for a living, but don't try to stick to the old ways of doing it. I've never had a client that would be willing to pay for having it done that way. Parts just have to be made in the same fashion and look like they did originally. I use whatever the best way I have at hand, or can cobble together to accomplish it.

What material is the original sash you copied made from?

[John Northowl]

hi Tom. I can't say I was ever thinking of commercial reproductions. Knowing I would be apartment bound I largely wanted to see what I could get away with with hand tools. Im really not sure what the original material is, its behind so many layers of paint.

Thank you Jim and Jim. I'd never heard of a coach makers plane, and Im a little confused what it does, a sort of curved plow plane?.

[Tom M King]

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/44-49_1111_PWM_Bowsaw.pdf

I searched for Turning saw blade and turning saw kit. This was at the top of the list. I think I'd want one longer than 12" .

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-BOWS.PINKIT

https://www.rexkrueger.com/store/diy-turning-saw

https://www.woodbywright.com/blog/roubo-style-frame-saw

[James Pallas]

hi Tom. I can't say I was ever thinking of commercial reproductions. Knowing I would be apartment bound I largely wanted to see what I could get away with with hand tools. Im really not sure what the original material is, its behind so many layers of paint.

Thank you Jim and Jim. I'd never heard of a coach makers plane, and Im a little confused what it does, a sort of curved plow plane?.

Look up coachmakers plane and you’ll find lots of different styles. Turning saws are an easy build nothing fancy. Three pieces of wood some all thread a hacksaw and a piece of bandsaw blade. I made two of the kind you see pictured in an hour or so. I used a 3/8” 6tpi bandsaw blade about 18” long. A little tricky to start but cuts well in 4” hard maple, that’s why I needed them.
Jim

[Mel Fulks]

John, that is a nice artistic piece. It’s obviously modern ,so it’s built in a different way from the old ones. I’ve made a lot of those. We made
them mostly from North Eastern white pine . Some were made of mahogany. We band-sawed the pieces over sized , then tacked them to
plywood templates and used a shaper to cut the sides of the curved “bars”. Then used shaper to cut the putty rabbets . Used set up shaper
with cutters for the mould , ovalo or other . After the pieces were put together they were dipped in a rot-stop commercial product.
Ocassionaly we just made a wood sash with no “bars” ,when buyer wanted lead bars.

[Mel Fulks]

It’s best to put the “bark side “ of every part toward exterior to prevent grain from pop -up rough grain .

[Jim Koepke]

I'd never heard of a coach makers plane, and Im a little confused what it does, a sort of curved plow plane?.

There are various "Coachmaker's plow planes, this is one:

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This one has an adjustable fence to match the curvature of the work.

There is a variety of such tools. Here are a few of them:

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These are short and curved sole molding planes. Some will be found with handles cut into the bodies similar to these:

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There are many others, some are like spokeshaves. There are also router planes made specifically for use on curved work.

Stanley made a #196 for cutting rabbets on curved work > http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan13.htm#num196

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

In hand work, we usually carve curved muntins. For an ovolo moulding, we often use a backbent gouge and a straight gouge for coves. Rabbets are made with chisels and gouges.

Exterior windows are usually made of pine or other softwood. For these woods a scratch stock does not work very well at all. Even for hardwood muntins, using a scratch stock on a moulding of any consequence is much slower than carving.

I suppose that if you were making thirty windows of something it might be worth buying or making a plane with a curved bottom, but these kinds of windows are usually made one or two at a time.

[Mel Fulks]

I suppose that if you were making thirty windows of something it might be worth buying or making a plane with a curved bottom, but these kinds of windows are usually made one or two at a time.
Warren Mickley

True , but today all architectural do-dads get used in “creative ways” . Think …young children with buckets of glitter and glue ! I’ve seen
them used all the way around tall buildings. My favorite use is in old country churches, and I will stop and walk around them .

[John Northowl]

John, that is a nice artistic piece. It’s obviously modern

Indeed. The cathedral is from 1840's. One thing I was curious about, even when built with modern tools. Are the little mouchettes shaped with their larger piece or carved out after and applied (kind of like what I started to do but ran out of time). Also, coping those branched to fit eachother was not easy, do craftspeople just get really good at coping compound curves? Also where does the glazing go exactly. I could only see the outside so could only see it went behind what I built, but that about it. Cheers, you guys are great.

For some reason I assumes a frame saw was only meant for straight cuts and would break if the blade was too thin for curved work.

[Tom M King]

Regardless of shape, there is a rabbet to hold the glass and putty like in the picture on this site:

https://www.oldhouseonline.com/repairs-and-how-to/reglazing-windows/

[Jim Koepke]

Also, coping those branched to fit eachother was not easy, do craftspeople just get really good at coping compound curves?

If you do something all the time you tend to get good at it.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

Lots of opinions on the putty on those jobs. I don’t like the old style putty. Haven’t seen any in years. We primed the pieces all around then ,
used whatever putty was specified . Some of the old stuff had lead in it. Caulk is OK if you if you don’t smush it all out when putting in the
glass. Some of the architects wanted wood beading instead of putty .

[Tom M King]

I have my own system that I'm sure no one else uses, and probably not even worth showing. It takes the least amount of total minutes per window, but involves several months of waiting between first step, and last. I'm usually working on one house for a year or two anyway, which I doubt many do, so it wouldn't be a commonly used system. It is very durable, never having to have redone any glazing since the mid '90's, and all still looking good, but broken panes are easy to replace with no risk to fragile sash.

I wouldn't recommend the glazing compound I use for any other system because it shrinks so much. It does stay soft for decades though, and is easy to cut after it has cured.

Dapp Glazing in caulking tubes. It's different than Dapp glazing in a can which I consider junk. Shaped to final shape with a beyond razor sharp woodworking chisel. Less than a minute to install for a large 9 light sash, and a few minutes to trim at least six months later. Can do a perfect job with a beveled guide for the chisel to ride on, or an authentic looking job by hand and eye.

I've tried everything else I could find, and some are too strong, get too hard, or depend on paint to keep them from cracking.

edited to add: My website is so old the software it was built with is no longer supported, so I can edit any of the errors it's accumulated in some years. Some of the text won't make sense because whole blocks have been dropped, but I can't edit it. Anyway, there is probably enough information left on this page to give you an idea.

http://historic-house-restoration.com/windowglazing.html

[Jack Dover]

First, What tool would have been used to create curved beveled profile 4-6" in section?

All kinds of tools really. Most probably a special type of molding planes that have radiused soles, they still appear sometimes at auctions. Nobody really wants them anymore, they're a beast to make work and we don't typically do this type of work these days.

Worst case it could have been just plain old carving with regular carving tools.


And then lastly, the tighter curves. It took ages with my fret saw and files. Was there some other tool that would have made this process simpler/faster?

Tight curved segments were turned on a lathe and then cut in pieces. And those guys were exceptionally good at mitering and coping, there is a whole treatise just on mitering and coping somewhere on archive.org.


So would the larger curves have all been cut rather than bent?

They would just find an appropriately curved trunk that might have required minimal or no bending at all. Kinda like crook frames are done. Or it could have been build up from smaller pieces if a curve was compound. You might also find "Circular work in carpentry" interesting, it's mostly about all types of window frames including gothic frames like yours.

[John Northowl]

Its funny, I built a double hung sash window in school with a rebate on the back for glazing, yet I never assumed the gothic window would have the same construction principle. I suppose I assumed it was held with iron on the inside, and the wood was just decorative on the outside. Thanks for clarifying.
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[John Northowl]

Thank you so much for the book recommendation.