Laguna Dust Collectors, X Flux 5

[Bryan Hall]

Looking at putting an order in for the new X flux 5 dust collector. They don't release until April, so I've got time to confirm. It's definitely a new design but my big question is:

Does anyone have pros/cons to say about their existing Laguna dust collector? I've got some laguna items that I love, some that have struggled, but have never seen/used their dust collectors. Any thoughts/advice would be appreciated!

https://lagunatools.com/classic/dust-collectors/xflux-5/

[John Lanciani]

Seems like a lot of dough for a single stage dust collector.

[Bryan Hall]

Seems like a lot of dough for a single stage dust collector.

Decibel rating is more valuable to me than $$$

[Brian Tymchak]

At the furniture bank where I volunteer and build furniture, we have 2 of the C-Flux 3 cyclones which are relatively old designs. They are not supported by Laguna any longer. For the most part they have held up to light industrial level usage. The automatic filter cleaners have been a bit unreliable. The motors for the paddle cleaner seem solid but the connection of the paddle to motorshaft is weak, relying on an allen screw to lock them together. They've come apart several times. Also very difficult to get the back bolt on the canister filter threaded and tightened as the housing is close by. None of these problems though may be relevant to new design.

[james manutes]

Seems like a lot of dough for a single stage dust collector.
I aree . What are the reasons to consider this design at $4500 ?

[Justin Rapp]

I like the padding to help with the noise, but it's single stage from what I can tell. I have a cflux-3 and besides one issue that was corrected under warranty, it works as expected.

[Bryan Hall]

Hmm, for me noise is a big deal. I've never had a 2 stage that I really liked, so perhaps I don't know what I'm missing?

[Thomas Wilson]

There are lots of 2 stage 5hp dust collectors in that price range. I have the 5hp Oneida Smart Dust Gorilla Pro which lists for $4500. It has variable speed drive which boosts speed and pressure for low flow which makes a big difference for tools with 4” ports. It is not a class leader in decibels but it is pretty good. Putting the dc in a closet with a baffled return air is a solution for any dc’s noise level. I am very happy with the cyclone separator’s ability to remove dust and keep the filter clean. I would look for some independent comparison testing of Laguna’s filter cleaner against a cyclone before committing that much money.

[Andrew More]

I'm not impressed with the 70 db rating, since it's at 10'. If noise is an issue for a DC, then a sound proof closet or putting it outside/in a shed is often the best solution. 70 db is still loud enough to be annoying, and potentially cause problems, and 10' is a LOT of space in a shop.

[Dave Sabo]

This is just another LT tool fueled more by marketing wank than real engineering in my opinion.

It’s basically one of their short cyclones set in a hush cabinet. You can build your own hush cabinet pretty easily. What you can’t do is make up for the inefficiency of the short cone design - which clogs the canister filter faster than a traditional length one.

I’d also have pause that Laguna doesn’t support their older cyclones anymore - they aren’t that old. This coming from a co. that already has ify cust. svc. Bear in mind those early cyclones had a design flaw that made separation even worse and caught LT with their pants down and necessitated a dingus be added to the bottom of the cone just to make the things reasonably useable. This doesn’t inspire confidence in their engineering department.

You should also question their sound ratings too especially when comparing to others. There is no std. for this measure and you can be sure LT is not erring on the conservative side or using the most stringent criteria. Sure it’ll be quieter than a cyclone that doesn’t have its motor and exhaust shrouded , but prob. not as quiet as they claim. Plus , as I said above , you can achieve similar or better results with any cyclone by putting it in a cabinet yourself.

I’d get the Harvey horiz. cyclone before I shelled out for a Laguna one.

[Bryan Hall]

Good points! I have a hard time buying into Harvey with the price plus CFM ratings. I do like how quiet the Harvey is, but I'm not convinced the Harvey has the power to run multiple machines at once.

[Aaron Inami]

The Harvey G-700 and G-800 will be able to run two 4" hoses at the same time (or one 6"). Whether this is actually two machines is dependent on what kind of machines. It's enough to run one table saw (one hose for cabinet and second hose for over-arm dust collection).

So, the Harvey G-700 "may" be able to run two small machines if they are not demanding and only use 4" ports. Something like a edge sander may need a full 6" hose. If you want more machines or have more demanding machines, you need a bigger 5HP dust collector like the LT X:FLUX or even a 5HP Clearvue/Oneida cyclone.

[Bryan Hall]

The Harvey G-700 and G-800 will be able to run two 4" hoses at the same time (or one 6"). Whether this is actually two machines is dependent on what kind of machines. It's enough to run one table saw (one hose for cabinet and second hose for over-arm dust collection).

So, the Harvey G-700 "may" be able to run two small machines if they are not demanding and only use 4" ports. Something like a edge sander may need a full 6" hose. If you want more machines or have more demanding machines, you need a bigger 5HP dust collector like the LT X:FLUX or even a 5HP Clearvue/Oneida cyclone.

I wish there was a good way to learn about dust collection. TBH, looking at the stats, there's just no comparison of the Laguna vs the Harvey. Maybe someone can help educate me because it's something I can honestly say I feel foolish around in my understanding.

Price:
Laguna $4500
Harvey $3,000 $7,000 $10,000

Horsepower
Laguna 5hp
Harvey 2hp 3hp 4hp

Airflow
Laguna 3093cfm at inlet 1823 cfm with hoses connected.
Harvey 1110/700cfm 1175/800cfm 1400/1100cfm

Impeller
Laguna 14.5"
Harvey 12" 12.5" 14"

Filter efficiency
Laguna .3-.4 micron at 99.7%
Harvey .3-.5 micron at 99.35%

Bin Size
Laguna 39 gallons
Harvey 32/37/40 gallons

Decibels
Laguna 69dBA @ 9.8'
Harvey 61-72 dBA

So, maybe someone can educate me on what I'm missing here? I'd really like to learn this so I can look at specs and have a better understanding. Comparing the Laguna vs all three Harvey options though, it seems like a no brainer but I'm assuming I'm missing something here?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I bought the Harvey G700, but it is still on the pallet, so no actual use to report on yet. I chose it during their sale and it was equal to similarly priced collectors. The compact size and the low noise we’re selling points for me. I didn’t need huge CFM’s because it’s going right next to the three machines it will be dedicated to, so not much loss through ductwork.

What I can tell you is that I looked very closely at the Lagunas before pulling the trigger on the Harvey. The Harvey is built like a fine scientific instrument that looks like it belongs in a laboratory. The Laguna was nice, but nowhere near the quality of build.

[Aaron Inami]

Basically, the impeller size really determines the capability of a dust collector. That being said, larger impellers generally require higher power motors to drive them (and more current being used). The Laguna is superior here because of the largest impeller size (14.5"). Also, larger diameter impellers will generally also be taller as well (more actual impeller fin surface area). That is why the 14.5" Laguna will have 64% more CFM than the 12" Harvey. The Laguna impeller is probably something like 14.5" diameter x 5" high where the Harvey could be 12" diameter x 4" high.

The Harvey G-700 and G-800 are unique designs and have nice technology. But you are paying for that technology as well as the design (wheels = movable around the shop). The G-800 will not perform that much better than the G-700, but it has a lot of additional technology features (smart filter pulse cleaner, filter monitor, flow control, delayed stop). If the size and functionality of the Harvey is what you want, then great. The Laguna is a different design for sure, but requires a lot of height space (almost 8 feet). The Laguna does take up a little less floor space when compared to Harvey. The Harvey height is about the same height as a tablesaw.

The Laguna design is not a new concept (but it's new for Laguna). This is very similar to how the Felder dust collectors work (RL series), but the Felder are much more expensive per size of machine. The filter in the Laguna will get dirty faster, but it does have an automatic filter cleaner. The Harvey, on the other hand, will try to capture as much dust particles as possible and dump them into the bins before the air gets to the filter. That being said, using the Harvey with some tools is like a balancing act. If you turn up the suction too much on something like a sander, you'll end up filling the filters with dust and clogging them (which you will need to remove and clean out). Also, the Harvey is not good for large pieces of wood debris since all wood particles/dust are sucked through the impeller first. As Jim Becker will also confirm, you can get wood debris hitting the gate grill at the machine if the pieces are too large. You won't have this problem on the Laguna.

[Jim Becker]

Unless you have fan curves, you really cannot trust the CFM ratings for any of these systems. I'm very sceptical that the Laguna will perform anywhere close to those numbers for sure in the "real world". The Harvey may be closer, but still...

[Aaron Inami]

Jim is correct. I didn't look closely at those numbers, but 3093 CFM is definitely an "escalated number". That being said, I believe the Laguna will pull 50-60% more CFM than the Harvey G-700/800 models. Another point to look at is that ALL the Harvey dust collectors are restricted by a 6" inlet. The Laguna has a larger 8" inlet (which means your main can be 8" with 6" drops).

[Kevin Jenness]

This is just another LT tool fueled more by marketing wank than real engineering in my opinion.

It’s basically one of their short cyclones set in a hush cabinet. You can build your own hush cabinet pretty easily. What you can’t do is make up for the inefficiency of the short cone design - which clogs the canister filter faster than a traditional length one.


Actually it appears to be a single stage unit with an automatic cleaning cycle to keep the undersized (32 sq ft) cartridge filter clear - except that the filter will have to be manually blown out regularly per the manual. Anybody who has had to clean out a packed pleated filter knows that is a far from pleasant task, so the design seems problematic to me. A common rule of thumb calls for 1 sq ft of filter area per 10cfm. Plus, without a fan curve plotting airflow vs static pressure it's hard to know quite what the performance is.

[Dave Sabo]

Good points! I have a hard time buying into Harvey with the price plus CFM ratings. I do like how quiet the Harvey is, but I'm not convinced the Harvey has the power to run multiple machines at once.


um……….how many machines can you operate at once ?

[Bryan Hall]

um……….how many machines can you operate at once ?

Commonly 2 and occasionally 3 machines going in my shop.

[Jim Becker]

Commonly 2 and occasionally 3 machines going in my shop.
The larger (and considerably more expensive) Harvey "might" work for that, but no way that a single G700 would. It kicks hiney for single tool use, IMHO, and I'm glad I switched to it and got the lower noise profile, as well as the lower space profile that I took advantage of in my shop. But for commercial use like you have going, I personally believe you'll be better served by a larger system that can actually move a lot more air. (fan curves matter...) The alternative would be two or more G700s placed in the shop so that they can service certain tool island in an efficient way that works for your workflow. At about $2600 each...they are pretty affordable.

[Dave Sabo]

Commonly 2 and occasionally 3 machines going in my shop.

So, is this a professional shop with multiple people working at the same time with tools connected by a sizable duct system ?

If so, neither the LT or the Harvey are suited in my opinion. You should get over to Oneida and stop wasting time dreaming about creature comforts. You should also have pause about LT’s track record on design problems and ongoing support of their dust collection program - what are ya gonna do if they don’t sell the filters for that puppy in 5 years , or get in one of their infamous customer no service ruts ? What if the thing just doesn’t live up to their hype ?

[Stephen Bandirola]

Just buy a ClearVue and build a cabinet around it.

[Aaron Inami]

Based on my testing with my 5HP Clearvue Pentz EF5 with a 16" impeller, it will support two 6" drops at the same time (this is the same as four 4" hoses) -- as long as you are running an 8" main duct. If you are using a 6" main attached to the cyclone, it will be less CFM overall.

The Oneida 5HP or 3HP will likely to somewhat less because they are using a smaller 15" impeller and also a smaller 7" inlet to the cyclone.

[Bryan Hall]

I’m not married to the Laguna but I am limited by a sub 8’ ceiling so long cone cyclones are commonly out of the question.

[Aaron Inami]

yeah, the cyclones are going to require 8.5 to 9 feet of ceiling space. If you are concerned about Laguna design and support problems, the alternative to this type of dust collector is the Felder RL series. However, they start at around $5k for the RL 125 bare bones single phase version. I think the 125 is pretty much a single machine dust collector. It stands at 6.3 feet high.

A 2-machine Felder would be the 5HP RL 160 model which starts at around $7k for the single phase versions. These are a little taller at 6.75 feet high. The RL 160 has an "automatic cleaner" feature that costs another $1100, but it also requires massive amounts of compressed air. You need a giant air compressor to really support this properly.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I agree that the Laguna is not the right choice. Do you have the option to install a cyclone on the exterior of the building under roof cover to be able to make the height work?

Or - You can install a ClearVue cyclone in sub 8’ ceiling (and build a closet around it), but would mean a shorter chip collection container, which could be a shorter but wider/deeper rectangular or square bin that’s shopmade and on casters. The air sealing would have to be done properly but no reason you couldn’t design a box out of plywood, etc that could hold 55 gal or more of chips.

[Steve Wurster]

I’m not married to the Laguna but I am limited by a sub 8’ ceiling so long cone cyclones are commonly out of the question.

Only if you require a large (e.g. 55 gallon) waste drum. I have an Oneida V-3000 3HP mounted to the wall in my low ceiling basement shop with a 35 gallon waste drum. Of course I'm the only one ever working in the shop and never run more than one machine at a time.

[Kevin Jenness]

The best small shop setup I have seen had a cyclone outdoors with a rotary airlock dropping into a dump trailer. Expensive, but so is the labor of handling chips and dust and keeping track of bin levels in a busy shop, not to mention the safety aspect of dust exposure.

Here's my more primitive outdoor setup with airflow returning to the shop. I use 6 mil bags inside the drum with an insert to keep the bag open. The long drop below the cyclone provides a safety buffer in case the bin overflows. I replaced the canister filter that came with this unit with a bank of tube filters.

My bin is around 30-35 gallons and at my age is about all I want to handle. Tussling with 50 gallon bags was no fun at all.

493880493881

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for sharing photos Kevin.

I think I understand the concept of the rotary air lock and that’s the direction that I’d like to be able to move in one day with a non basement shop.

Couple questions - if you have a totally external cyclone then how is make-up air handled inside the shop, especially a conditioned space?

The other option would be something like what you shared where I’m assuming your filter stack is inside the shop space on the other side of the wall or?

I guess what I’m wondering is how an exterior cyclone with air lock, etc but still having filters in the shop space is healthier/better for fine dust management than having it all inside? I can see the convenience factor immediately of chips+dust already being outside which is huge, but maybe I’m missing something in my understanding as to how it’s any different than a totally interior collector in regards to filters. Thanks

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks for sharing photos Kevin.

I think I understand the concept of the rotary air lock and that’s the direction that I’d like to be able to move in one day with a non basement shop.

Couple questions - if you have a totally external cyclone then how is make-up air handled inside the shop, especially a conditioned space?

The other option would be something like what you shared where I’m assuming your filter stack is inside the shop space on the other side of the wall or?

I guess what I’m wondering is how an exterior cyclone with air lock, etc but still having filters in the shop space is healthier/better for fine dust management than having it all inside? I can see the convenience factor immediately of chips+dust already being outside which is huge, but maybe I’m missing something in my understanding as to how it’s any different than a totally interior collector in regards to filters. Thanks

With my setup there is a small advantage in dust exposure when changing out the bin liner in that it happens outside as opposed to raising dust in the shop space. With the RAL/trailer I described the only exposure is when emptying the trailer. The great advantage there is reduced labor. The dust in the shop from filtered air returning would be the same either way.

Quite a few people on this board exhaust their cyclones directly outdoors the advantage being no static pressure drop due to filters and no maintenance. It would be the same with a cyclone located outdoors. That probably wouldn't fly with close neighbors. Obviously the makeup air has to come from somewhere. I don't like dumping the heat in a cold climate, but those who go bareback don't seem to have a problem.

I located my cyclone outside to save space. Its height allows for the intake duct to be just below the ceiling and that extended drop is a life saver when the bin overfills a bit, preventing the excess chips from getting into the filters. If that does happen it's just a matter of emptying a drawer at the bottom of the filter bank, which is housed in a 3' square bumpout at the corner of the shop.

[Aaron Inami]

Couple questions - if you have a totally external cyclone then how is make-up air handled inside the shop, especially a conditioned space?

The other option would be something like what you shared where I’m assuming your filter stack is inside the shop space on the other side of the wall or?

I guess what I’m wondering is how an exterior cyclone with air lock, etc but still having filters in the shop space is healthier/better for fine dust management than having it all inside? I can see the convenience factor immediately of chips+dust already being outside which is huge, but maybe I’m missing something in my understanding as to how it’s any different than a totally interior collector in regards to filters. Thanks

You would not normally have your filters outside because you need to have "return air". The dust collector is sucking air out of your wood shop and then returning that air through the filters. If you put the filters outside or if you exhaust outside without any filters, you will have to have some sort of door or opening to allow fresh air to come into the shop (otherwise, it's sort of creating a vacuum and may not work as well). You also need to be careful of gas exhaust locations (for stuff like water heaters and gas dryers). It's important to make sure the gas fumes are not being sucked back into your woodshop.

It looks like a rotary airlock allows transfer of dust material into a open bin or container while keeping the suction pressure held within the cyclone. That way, you don't have to have a sealed drum. However, you need a motor that runs the rotary airlock during normal dust collection use.
https://www.robsonforensic.com/articles/rotary-airlock-expert-witness

[Dick Strauss]

dB ratings aren't much good unless you know the distance. Say LT rates their DC at 70dB @ 10' (3m) and another company rates theirs at 70dB @ 1m. The LT rating would be about 80 dB at the same 1m distance! Don't believe the numbers unless you have an apples to apples comparison.