I Thought It Was The Battery

[Bruce Wrenn]

Went out last week to monthly test on generator. Turn on fuel, set choke, and press start button. NOTHING! At first I thought it might be starter motor, as it didn't do anything. When brushes reach the end of their life, this is what happens. Took jump box and connected directly to starter motor. Starter ran fine, so my thought was that the battery was shot. Connected jump box to battery terminals, and again nothing. Sometimes a totally dead battery will absorb all the charge out of a jump box or another battery. Disconnected leads from battery, and connect jump box to them. Still nothing. Reconnect battery leads. Connect positive lead of jump box to solenoid, and negative to frame of generator. Press start button, and she fires right up. This narrows problem down to a bad connection in either positive, or negative lead from battery. Next I connected positive lead of jump box to positive battery terminal, and negative lead to frame of generator, press start button. She fires up, so I have narrowed down problem to be in connections on negative lead. Checking negative lead where it connects to generator is a real bear, as it's on the back side, away from doors on generator shed. Finally remove negative lead from frame of generator ,and connect it directly to generator head. Problem solved. Did I mention that battery was made in 05/08, meaning it's over 14 years old. That's why I thought the battery could be the problem, but it wasn't the battery.

[Bruce Volden]

Isn't nice to win one once in awhile!!!

Bruce

[Michael Weber]

Good logical job of trouble shooting.

[John K Jordan]

… Finally remove negative lead from frame of generator ,and connect it directly to generator head. Problem solved. ...

What a great feeling when you get it going!

I read long ago that many electrical problems, such as in trailer and vehicle wiring (and sometimes building and even electronics wiring) are due to bad grounds. My most recent experience was a pressure washer engine that refused to start. Especially for things that live outside I started some years ago applying dielectric grease to all electrical connections, grounds or not, after cleaning the contact surfaces. I think this has helped.

JKJ

[Tom M King]

Sounds like a good process. Grounding is always the first thing I check, especially with trailer wiring. I use di-electric grease for a lot of things, and conductive grease for others.

The only trouble with conductive grease is that it has carbon in it, and is Very easy to get black smudges all over everything. The last thing I fixed with it was an old garage door opener that was having trouble with the sorry friction connections to the electric eyes. It's still working two years after the conductive grease fix.

Di-electric is non-conductive, but protects the parts where they touch. If there is not much contact area, like the little connections in the garage door opener head, conductive grease helps.

[Jim Koepke]

Good logical job of trouble shooting.

Agree, a good step through process to eliminate potential problems one at a time.

jtk

[Ron Citerone]

Sounds like a good process. Grounding is always the first thing I check, especially with trailer wiring.

Di-electric is non-conductive, but protects the parts where they touch. If there is not much contact area, like the little connections in the garage door opener head, conductive grease helps.

Tom,
I have had several boat trailers. Trailers in salt water are especially difficult. Beefing up the grounding system and routine cleaning of all connections saves lots of hassles.

Bruce, good job on the diagnosis and glad it was a relatively inexpensive fix!

[Bruce Wrenn]

Having been in the problem solving business most of my life, I trouble shoot first and then correct the problem. There is a term to describe guys who just start replacing parts till the problem is solved. They are called "Parts Slingers." If they put enough new parts on something, it's bound to get fixed. Even worse is they replace the same part multiple times. Our son once worked in a shop that was full of "parts slingers. " Same goes for a local heavy equipment dealer. Son spent two days correcting "parts slingers" attempt to fix a loader. Told them to put all the old parts back on, then using old parts, he fixed the problem. It was a matter of setting correct adjustments (joy stick.) If everything else fails, read the manual! Still amazed that a fourteen and a half years old battery still does the job. I keep a "Battery Tender connected to battery all the time, as motor on generator doesn't contain a charging magneto. This battery started life in a riding mower, then sat for about six years before being charged and installed on generator.

[Ole Anderson]

You are going to trust your next power outage to a 14 YO battery?

[Jim Koepke]

There is a term to describe guys who just start replacing parts till the problem is solved. They are called "Parts Slingers." If they put enough new parts on something, it's bound to get fixed.

In my trade we called them "shot gunners." Same approach of replacing parts until it started to work. They would often replace parts having nothing to do with the problem.

Then there were the "LIFTNG" (Leave It For The Next Guy) artist. They would tell the client they needed a part and it was on order and then the next guy would come and hopefully fix it.

Many people pay a lot for an education. Often the one thing they forget to pay is attention.

jtk

[Ron Citerone]

I thought "LIFTING" was for retired homeowners! LOL

[Warren Lake]

went through this with the ride on mower, new battery and still same. At one point put a multimeter on the starter motor and saw 6, 5, 4 volts. Too low and it kept changing? Held the Key to on to see if it would stabilize and saw a puff of smoke. Argh. Burned the casing off a green wire, realized my fault holding the key on for more than a split second. Ended up taking as many connections apart as i could and wire brush and sandpaper into some. Die electric grease then together. It started better than when I was given the machine and has continued the same.

I got hoodwinked on a 96 buick roadmaster and this mower adventure was a good lesson for me showing me im going to have to find and do the same to as many connections as possible on the car before trying to sort it out. Need to get a Tech 2 scanner as well.

[Jim Koepke]

At one point put a multimeter on the starter motor and saw 6, 5, 4 volts. Too low and it kept changing?

Amazing what a simple multimeter can tell a person who knows how to use it.

It is amazing people with an engineering degree can't do simple math to see how their design might cause a problem. On my last job there was a situation where certain relays wouldn't energize on hotter days. This had been an ongoing problem. A supervisor assigned me to figure it out. A quick look and using a meter at a few junction boxes made it clear.

One things that many designers seem to forget is copper wire has resistance. The next thing they forget is when it is hot it has more resistance.

The switch to actuate the relays ran over 1400 feet and the voltage drop was great enough to cause too low of a voltage to pick (actuate) the bank of relays. This took place shortly before my retirement. The supervisor retired shortly after me. I have no idea if the problem was ever remedied or if others were informed or if they are still chasing their tails around on the problem. Bureaucracy seems to cause more problems than it solves.

jtk

[Warren Lake]

yeah, really it led me to solving the problem. I dont have much experience with that stuff but constantly getting more. Used it on my batteries for years, last time truck had an issue volts were good and truck would not start, that never happens, then learned there are volts and amps and my amps were not happy. Im sure this is kindergarten stuff for those who work in it. On the buick I did talk to one guy who worked for a racing team and also knows those older LT-1 motors, he was kind with lots of time. I was surprised his way was changing out parts. He was the first person ive heard doing that.

[Bruce Wrenn]

You are going to trust your next power outage to a 14 YO battery?
Why not? New batteries also fail. I have a very good jump box if it doesn't crank. Owned two Sears Die Hard batteries in my lifetime. Both lived up to their name- DIED HARD, leaving me stranded except for the kindness of strangers. Our 1994 Ford Areostar, built in Dec 93, is on it's fourth battery now. First battery was replaced at nine years, because wife left lights on and went shopping.

[Brian Elfert]

Having been in the problem solving business most of my life, I trouble shoot first and then correct the problem. There is a term to describe guys who just start replacing parts till the problem is solved. They are called "Parts Slingers." If they put enough new parts on something, it's bound to get fixed. Even worse is they replace the same part multiple times. Our son once worked in a shop that was full of "parts slingers. " Same goes for a local heavy equipment dealer. Son spent two days correcting "parts slingers" attempt to fix a loader. Told them to put all the old parts back on, then using old parts, he fixed the problem. It was a matter of setting correct adjustments (joy stick.) If everything else fails, read the manual! Still amazed that a fourteen and a half years old battery still does the job. I keep a "Battery Tender connected to battery all the time, as motor on generator doesn't contain a charging magneto. This battery started life in a riding mower, then sat for about six years before being charged and installed on generator.

A buddy of mine was an auto mechanic for a few years in the late 80s/early 90s. He was on the flat rate pay system. He was extremely good at diagnosing complex issues so was given all of the cars with hard to diagnose problems. The problem was an issue he spent half a day diagnosing might only pay an hour of book time. Management refused to pay him properly for these difficult cases. He was making hardly any money while other mechanics doing pad slap brake jobs and similar all day long were making much more money. He finally quit and left the auto mechanics industry entirely. He worked as an engineering assistant for years designing refrigeration, and did a better job than the actual engineers. He constantly found and fixed errors made by the engineers. They could not promote him to engineer because he has no engineering degree. He finally got a good job as a field tech for a refrigeration company going all over to deal with complex issues in the field. He even got promoted to field manger responsible for half the USA.

[John K Jordan]

… replacing parts until it started to work. They would often replace parts having nothing to do with the problem…

Many people pay a lot for an education. ….


And many customers pay a lot when the lazy mechanic/dealer charges for the cost and time to install each of those unneeded parts! I always insist at the beginning they save and give me any removed parts. If I hear an excuse like “oh, the mechanic must have thrown it away” that shop never gets any of my future business.

There are some great mechanics out there but experience with the others (and the skyrocketing charges) are one reason I do almost all diagnosis and repair myself. If I just had a vehicle lift…

JKJ

[Mike Henderson]

And many customers pay a lot when the lazy mechanic/dealer charges for the cost and time to install each of those unneeded parts! I always insist at the beginning they save and give me any removed parts. If I hear an excuse like “oh, the mechanic must have thrown it away” that shop never gets any of my future business.

There are some great mechanics out there but experience with the others (and the skyrocketing charges) are one reason I do almost all diagnosis and repair myself. If I just had a vehicle lift…

JKJ

The problem, as I experienced it, is that many of the technicians do not have the education (and experience) needed to do a good job. For a lot of years, I did all the repair work on my cars, but now that I'm older, I just don't want to do that any more.

For many of the newer techs, I believe that if they don't get a code on their computer, they don't know what to do.

Mike

[Warren Lake]

Brian good your friend finally got recognized for his smarts and abilities. I do most repairs but if a car went in say trans rebuild then I want and ask for all the original parts. Its not just a trust thing its an education thing. Last failure i had was the truck not starting first time in 19 years. Traced it to the solenoid. Someone here said flip the nut. Thats a good answer but i figured ill take the starter in. He put a new US solenoid on and the old parts in teh box and did a bench test and new brushes. ready next day 90.00. Older guy doing alternators and starters all is life. First thing I said when I walked in was that I was glad he has not retired. He smiled. Love old school people. I think market place and W5 have done shows on mechanic scams

the best mechanics ive known are the ones that race, their own stuff and work on others race cars. They are like the finest surgeons above others.