Diamond or water stones

[Reed Gray]

Being some what new to the flat work world, in getting the sharpening set ups that I wanted, I opted for diamond lapping plates rather than the traditional water stones. I guess the main reasons were that the diamond stones take no maintenance other than washing them off, and they don't make any mess. Did I miss anything? I do have a 30+ year old set of DMT stones that I got when I first set up my shop, and they had pretty much stopped working, but put on some Trend lapping fluid and they came back to life. I would expect the diamond to outlive me, and they will never need flattening. They now have lapping plates up to 8000 grit. Am I missing anything? I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet.

robo hippy

[Kevin Jenness]

You'll get plenty of opinions on this as with any sharpening question.

I use DMT Duo Sharp stones, the ones with perforations in most of the matrix and a small continuous diamond section for small blades, 220/325 and 600/1200. I also have an 8000# diamond stone but no longer use it as it is so slow.

I typically grind with a 180# CBN wheel, then hone with the 1200# diamond and an 8000# Shapton waterstone and polish with green CRO2 on a leather strop and/or a felt wheel. None of the stones need more than a spritz of water, the diamonds stay flat and the waterstone is easy enough to flatten occasionally with a coarse diamond stone.

The diamond stone evens out my hand-guided ground edge and tunes it up in between grinding sessions while the waterstone quickly refines the edge to a high polish. Stropping is icing on the cake. Sometimes I drop back to 600# to straighten out the ground edge. For me this is a quick and reliable way to get to sharp without fooling around. I used to use just waterstones that needed to soak, now I spend very little time working on the stones to keep them flat.

[andy bessette]

...I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet...

The problem is lack of experience with water stones. Learn to use these properly and you will understand the need for them.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I’ve been switching to diamond stones as my water stones wear out. I use DMT Diasharp. Spent more time maintaining the water stones and cleaning up the mess than actual sharpening. I have a grinder with Norton wheels set up for major edge work and another with a cotton and felt wheel for final honing. 80% of my blades are LN A2.

[Jim Koepke]

Am I missing anything?

You may be missing an important consideration.

Are you getting your blades sharp enough to fulfill your woodworking goals? If the answer is yes, then you are likely not missing anything.

Another little bit of information that may also be of help is what water stone do you have?

If it is a fine polishing stone, my suggestion would be to get it wet and see if it can improve the edge you are able to achieve with your diamond plate.

For many years my water stones were my primary sharpening media. Since water freezes in my shop during the winter, oilstones had to be used during the colder months. Over time better oil stones were acquired from Dan's Whetstones. The oilstones are not quite as fast or as easy as the water stones. They are awful darned close enough for my purposes.

Diamond stones only have one advantage for me, they do not need oil or water before use. This is why one is in the kitchen to help keep a keen edge on all the knives.

491025

This is a flat 1X4" diamond stone mounted on a piece of mahogany. A shallow mortise was cut into the wood and then the stone was epoxied into the mortise. The image is a little bit soft focus due to my breath condensing on the lens before the picture was taken.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Being some what new to the flat work world, in getting the sharpening set ups that I wanted, I opted for diamond lapping plates rather than the traditional water stones. I guess the main reasons were that the diamond stones take no maintenance other than washing them off, and they don't make any mess. Did I miss anything? I do have a 30+ year old set of DMT stones that I got when I first set up my shop, and they had pretty much stopped working, but put on some Trend lapping fluid and they came back to life. I would expect the diamond to outlive me, and they will never need flattening. They now have lapping plates up to 8000 grit. Am I missing anything? I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet.

robo hippy

Reed, the bottom line is that diamond stones do not run to grits that are advisable for plane and bench chisel blades. An Extra Fine diamond plate is 1200 grit, which is roughly where my sharpening of flat tools begins its journey.

How you get to around 8000-10000 (and above) is a choice. My recommendation would be Shapton Pro because these are easy to find. My preference is a Shapton Pro 1000, and Sigma 6000 and 13000. Others may prefer diamond papers, but eventually they cost more.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I have an extra extra fine DMT that use with with regular tool steels followed by a strop. I have many (17) PMV 11 plane irons that I get the water stones out. I don’t like the water stone mess because of no dedicated space. When I get them out I touch up any irons that I think are even close.
Jim

[Andrew Hughes]

I use Shapton pro stones.
I have some dmt plastic honing thingys but they are not for serious woodworking
To keep the Shaptons NASA flat and cutting like new I have a very special diamond plate.
Good Luck

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Reed, the bottom line is that diamond stones do not run to grits that are advisable for plane and bench chisel blades. An Extra Fine diamond plate is 1200 grit, which is roughly where my sharpening of flat tools begins its journey.


Regards from Perth

Derek

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-8-Extra-Extra-Fine-Diamond-Stone-P125C166.aspx

8,000 grit. DMT also makes a 4,000 grit.

[Derek Cohen]

https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-8-Extra-Extra-Fine-Diamond-Stone-P125C166.aspx

8,000 grit. DMT also makes a 4,000 grit.

An issue with diamonds is that errand diamonds on a plate will leave deep scratches. This is okay in the lower grits, but not so when you are polishing at the end.

One exception I have found are the cheap (!) diamond disks on eBay which are for lapidary use. They are amazing - not an easy shape for honing plane and chisel blades, but I keep a couple in the kitchen for knives, and a couple in the workshop for small, specialist blades that might otherwise gouge a waterstone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keegan Shields]

Reed,

Like everything, there are a bunch of ways to get sharp results. I have used Shapton Pro water stones for the past couple of years and have had good success with them. I use 1k, 2k, 5k, 8k, and 12k. Admittedly overkill, but it works great for me. Most of the wear and tear is on the 1k. The first time I really sharpened a plane iron and took a fine shaving, the surface left behind was amazing. I had no idea wood could look like that.

I do find that my 1k Trend diamond stone, which is really well broken in, leaves a coarser finish than my 1k water stone. Obviously not a DMT stone, but I found it interesting.

I also took Derek’s advice and started hollow grinding my irons and chisels on a 180 CBN wheel using a tormek jig. It has really helped with freehand sharpening and has sped up the sharpening process for me. That’s important, because when I run into trouble, it’s usually because I should have stopped and resharpened the tool. Still working on that :)

Bottom line for me - find a system that gives you good results. Maybe give your water stone a try if you are curious about them. The lower grits (1k, 2k, etc) aren’t that expensive to try. And it sounds like you already have the diamond plates needed to keep them flat.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

An issue with diamonds is that errand diamonds on a plate will leave deep scratches. This is okay in the lower grits, but not so when you are polishing at the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don’t believe this is much of an issue with DMT DiaSharp stones. At least I haven’t found it to be. But then, I’m not anal when it comes to sharpening. When necessary, I examine my blades with a Schneider 3x photographer’s loupe, not a microscope. With a brief touch on the cotton or felt wheel, my blades get a mirror finish and are more than sharp enough for my purposes.

[Reed Gray]

Andy, your comment wasn't really any kind of answer at all, and if you can, give an explanation.

As for me, i am blessed or cursed with the engineer's motto, which is "if it ain't broke, fix it anyway" so I have to experiment. The diamond lapping plates from DMT make the most sense to me. They are dead flat, come in grits up to 8000, and a spritz of water, ammonia free (so it doesn't mess with the plating) glass cleaner, or Trend lapping fluid keep them clean. As for there being abrasive particles that stick up way too high, I guess there are some, but like the abrasives used for sanding, since they have gone to electrostatic charges rather than screening/sifting, the particles are far more uniform than they used to be. I do have a 16000 Shapton stone, and have a 30000 one on order. Supposedly, according to the local Woodcraft store, this is Rob Cosman's favorite final stone. At present, I really can't feel any difference in a plane blade or chisel that was sharpened on an 8000 grit stone or a 16000 stone, and then stropped with 16000 grit honing paste. As I get more experienced, I may be able to feel those differences. Agree that I do need need more experience. As near as I can tell, my chisels are sharp enough to get results I want. I also have experimented with one plane blade that I sharpened on 220 grit plate, then stropped the burr off. It still cut fine, though required a bit more push to get the shavings, it sounded considerably different, and the resulting surface was not shiny like one taken to 16000 grit, so it still worked. I do have one water stone in the shop, and will be playing around with it, just because. Some say that the water stones cut faster, but I can't really say that I notice any difference. I have no idea how they make the water stones. I would guess that the old stones were blocks of shale or similar materials. I would guess that the newer ones are some sort of sifted material, or electrostatically selected grits, and would be more uniform in grits. Still trying to figure it all out, and looking for more ideas. The quest goes on....

robo hippy

[andy bessette]

...I do have one water stone, but haven't even gotten it wet yet...



The problem is lack of experience with water stones. Learn to use these properly and you will understand the need for them.


Andy, your comment wasn't really any kind of answer at all, and if you can, give an explanation...

I cannot answer this for you. You must put in the time it takes to try it, learn, and decide for yourself. It is a process. I use a diamond tool to touchup blades in the field, just to keep the job going. You have the water stone; get it wet and see for yourself what you have been missing.

[Jim Koepke]

As I get more experienced, I may be able to feel those differences. Agree that I do need need more experience. As near as I can tell, my chisels are sharp enough to get results I want. I also have experimented with one plane blade that I sharpened on 220 grit plate, then stropped the burr off. It still cut fine, though required a bit more push to get the shavings, it sounded considerably different, and the resulting surface was not shiny like one taken to 16000 grit, so it still worked.

A blade that merely "still worked" compared to a blade that can take a shaving in the neighborhood of 0.001" are to very different things.

When you can make a shaving like this:

491086

You will know the blade is sharp. A blade that isn't sharp isn't going to be able to take a real thin shaving:

491087

Especially on end grain.

jtk

[William Fretwell]

My diamond stones wore out quickly. You keep using them and not much happens. Water stones keep going far far far longer.
Water stones do need flattening, a CBN (cubic boron nitride) plate does the job in seconds. Double sided, coarse and fine. Pricey, but will last longer than I will. Other flattening methods are available.
I would never waste my money again on a diamond stone of any kind.

[James Pallas]

My diamond stones wore out quickly. You keep using them and not much happens. Water stones keep going far far far longer.
Water stones do need flattening, a CBN (cubic boron nitride) plate does the job in seconds. Double sided, coarse and fine. Pricey, but will last longer than I will. Other flattening methods are available.
I would never waste my money again on a diamond stone of any kind.

I have some of the original DMT stones that I purchased in the. 1970s. One is a 220 the other is a 600. Both have been used a lot in commercial environment. They both still cut just fine. I’m sure they are worn. The 600 is still more course than my extra fine DMT. The 220 still cuts well not as good as it’s bigger newer brother. Still used regularly because it clamps nicely in the vice for carbide metal lathe tools.
Jim

[glenn bradley]

Realizing that folks use high grits for things I would not, I use DMT DiaSharp stones up to 8000. I find them quick, clean, and consistent. Any stones with errant "rocks" have been quickly and cheerfully replaced. For the times that going from 8000 to a strop is not adequate I use micro-abrasive films on glass a-la scary sharp. We all find our way and the way that works for you is your best way. I have a been through a lot of ways and DMT stones (EZ-Lap, Trend, and others are not DMT) and films are my current rest stop on the road to sharp. I should mention that I have been at this rest stop for 15 years or so. Any seasoned recommendation is of value. We have all traveled the road and we have all found our happy place. I would bet that any one of these methods that you followed could be yours. There's always more than one way to skin the cat . . . or to sharpen the tool you use to skin it.

[Luke Dupont]

Waterstones are my least favorite because of the mess and the need for a sink. Also, rust. Some people don't have problems with rust, but I do if there's a lot of damage to be taken out and I spend a lot of time on a waterstone.

A coarse diamond stone or two is a necessity, especially if you use waterstones. But they aren't the nicest to sharpen on. Neither oil nor water work well to carry the swarf away, and they wear out rather quickly.

Oilstones are my favorite by far. A lot of people see them as inferior and slow, but they work quite well for me. No mess, no rust, stay fairly flat, and won't wear out within my lifetime. They also have a very nice feel to them, unlike diamond stones, and leave a much better edge.

I have a variety of India stones, Arkansas stones, and Vintage Washitas. The Vintage Washitas are my favourite all around stone, quick cutting but still capable of a fairly fine edge. An India stone paired with a harder arkansas is a great option too though.

Not all Arks are the same either. I have a vintage "Soft Arkansas" which seems like a hard arkansas, but cuts a lot faster, almost like a Washita, but finer. It also has a more grainy/granular texture like a vintage Washita. That's part of the fun with natural stones.

Ultimately, how you sharpen and what you sharpen will dictate what you gravitate towards. I mostly sharpen free-hand, and I mostly sharpen vintage tools and Japanese steel. Oilstones work great for this. If you use a guide or sharpen really abrasion resistant steels with large carbides, like A2 for instance, you might prefer synthetic waterstones.

The only thing I haven't ventured too far into are Jnats. I've only used the really cheap hardware store variety, and I found my Arks to be better than them in almost all regards.

[Kevin Jenness]

The different takes on diamond stones' longevity is interesting. I've used a couple of DMT paddles for 30 years and they continue to cut ok, though a bit slower than originally, and have used DuoSharps for initial sharpening for at least 5 years with consistent results.

When I shifted from King waterstones to diamonds to reduce maintenance I used an 8000# DMT and found it produced a keen edge but was ungodly slow, so I switched to an 8000# Shapton which works quite nicely and doesn't wear too fast. I can't see that it does any better job than the DMT except for speed. I am not looking at the edge under a microscope. If I can slice pine endgrain easily with no crumbling or scratches visible to the eye I consider that a sharp edge.

I do usually strop with green compound but I could stop at 8000#. I like to think the stropped edge stays sharp a bit longer before breaking down, and stropping or buffing doesn't take long at all. I have a process that gets my dull tools back in shape quickly and that's all I want. Five grades of Nasa flat waterstones are not for me.

[Richard Wile]

One of the things to keep in mid when exploring media is that all of them will sharpen your tools and which one works best for you is often dictated by your situation. People still use oil stones where they can's use water due to freezing or availability. I started with oil stones and have progressed through paper, diamonds, water stones and ceramic (which are really water stones). So media choice is really a journey, embrace it and see where it takes you.

The double sided diamonds (up to 1200) are just fine to get you sharp enough for basic woodworking and DIY. Be sure you are getting the monocrystalline stones, such as Atoma, or DMT (price will tell you) as these will last a VERY long time. Polycrystalline stones break down in use and wear out. Although there is an 8000 diamond stone available, I have stopped using it as it is very slow and really too much of jump from the 1200 grit, also because it is so flat, the blade will often lock to the plate from suction when using water or even Windex. if you are looking for a higher degree of sharpness then you will want at least an 8000 ceramic stone such as the Shapton (either Glass or Ho-No Kuromaku) suggested by others. these only require a spray to use and stay flat.

Any stone that wears will require flattening regularly to stay in optimal range, so ensure you have a method to flatten these regularly, the coarse diamond plate will do just fine.

This topic is one of the best in Sharpening to explore how others work and understand why people have settled on any one (or combination) of media, as we are all on different stops of the sharpening journey we undertake when we decide to become woodworkers. Again, when used properly, all the media choices will sharpen your tools, the choice comes down to what is right for you and your specific situation. My kit in my workshop is very different from my travelling setup for the jobsite (my kid's homes), and different than what is stored in the shed for sharpening yard implements.

Richard Wile
Author of 'A Sharpening Handbook'

[andy bessette]

Seeing a lot of complaints about water stones being messy. This sounds like a simple lack of organization. My water stones are kept in paint trays and darkroom trays, set on a reusable piece of poly sheeting, which contain the potential mess. Though I've seen some much more elaborate setups on youtube.

[Russell Nugent]

Or it could just be that people have different situations than you.

[Chuck Hill]

Richard, is going from a 1200 diamond stone to a 8000 ceramic stone too much of a jump?

[Jim Koepke]

Or it could just be that people have different situations than you.

Russell, it isn't clear to whom's post you might be replying. We all have different situations. My shop doesn't have running water. Though there is an advantage of a bench built by the previous owner that is just big enough for a water stone operation. Here is a tip for folks, a small automotive floor mat can be great for a water stone system.


Richard, is going from a 1200 diamond stone to a 8000 ceramic stone too much of a jump?

Chuck, the part to consider in sharpening is smoothing the scratches left by the previous media. Yes, you can make the big jump. The drawback is it will take more time to clear the scratches than if you went with a 4000 stone.

If you do a micro edge or secondary bevel, this will be different. My tendency is to stay with a single angle to make things simpler.

jtk

[Richard Wile]

Richard, is going from a 1200 diamond stone to a 8000 ceramic stone too much of a jump?

Hi Chuck, it's really about how much time you want to spend on a stone. You can go from a 1200 diamond, or 1000 ceramic (or whatever) to an 8000 stone. The objective of the finer stone is to remove the "scratches" in the edge caused by the coarser stone. The 8000 stone will remove those scratches, but will take much longer to do so than say stopping at a 4-5000 grit stone on the way, as the mid-grit stone will remove the 1000 grit scratches much quicker, replacing them with 4000 grit scratches (much finer) and then the 8000 stone only needs to remove those scratches. It's a case of pick your poison, more time on the extra-fine stone, or add a middle stone to save some time, and also the wear on what is often your most expensive stone.

This is why the most common stone setup I see is a grinding stone for bevel setting (1000-1200 grit), a fine stone (4-5K) for honing the bevel (or micro-bevel) and an extra-fine stone (8-12K) for polishing the bevel (or micro-bevel). When the time comes to re-hone the bevel, the middle stone provides enough abrasive to quickly hone the edge before the final polish on the extra-fine stone. (unless of course you have waited far too long to re-hone, then its back to the 1000!). With the middle stone, its 5-10 strokes and then 5-10 more on the extra-fine and back to work. With only an extra-fine stone it make longer than the combined time to get the edge back, my testing suggests it takes at least twice as long to restore the edge using only an extra-fine stone - but this is very subjective and not scientific. Just another case for a middle stone.

Many folks that do not require an edge that an extra-fine stone produces will stop at a fine honing stone (4-5K), such as DIY, weekend hoe handyman. I have a block plane finished on a 4K stone for rough work as this edge is more durable than one produced on an extra-fine stone. A middle stone allows you to choose what degree of edge preparation you need for the job and the tool.

Hope this helps!

Richard Wile
Author of 'A Sharpening Handbook'

491134

[Thomas Wilson]

In response to the original question of diamond versus water stones. I have both, DMT Dia-Sharp diamond stones and Ohishi water stones. I have the diamond stone in one shop and water stone in another. I use 5 grits for both (for diamond, extra coarse, coarse, fine, extra fine, and extra-extra fine. For water, 1000, 3000, 6000, 8000, and 10,000). I use only diamond in one shop and only water in the other shop. I use a Lie Nielsen sharpening guide for chisels and plane blades. I may skip the coarser grits but go through all the rest. Usually 10-30 strokes per grit.

I test the sharpness with an Edge-On-Up 1100 Pro Industrial tester. There is some variability in test results due to steadiness in performing the test. I usually perform 3 tests and get a range 170-220 grams for diamond and 160-200 grams for water stones. I then use a strop on both, about 10 strokes on the bevel and 3-5 with the blade laid flat on the strop. I test again. I usually get something near 150 grams on either. If the result is less sharp, I try a few more strokes on the finest stone and the strop again. That almost always brings the results into the expected range.

These edges are very sharp. They shave arm hair cleanly, slice paper without tearing, and cut end grain softwood cleanly without compressing the summer wood.

My answer is that you can get the same degree of sharpness from either diamond or water stones. A strop helps a bit. A guide gives consistently excellent sharpness. When honing the secondary bevel, very light pressure using the finest grit is key. Not very many strokes are needed to refresh an edge.

I bought the diamond stones because I was sharpening carving gouges. The diamond stone is less susceptible to digging in.

[Jim Koepke]

I bought the diamond stones because I was sharpening carving gouges. The diamond stone is less susceptible to digging in.

The need to sharpen gouges was my reason for buying a few oilstones. Then the few grew to a full arsenal.

jtk

[Reed Gray]

I am surprised at those who say the diamond stones wear out. Maybe that is a quality thing. Buy the cheap ones and they will degrade faster than the higher quality ones. That is certain. As far as CBN goes, I have had CBN grinding wheels in my shop for so long I have worn out at least one set. Stuart Batty said that the CBN wheels are good for about 6 years in production shops, and that seems to be about right. Glenn Lucas, another turner from Ireland, switched to the diamond wheels for his Tormek sharpeners. His reasoning was that the diamond will last forever. He would use CBN wheels for a year, and then find them good new homes. I guess that all grinding and sharpening things will wear out eventually, though I figure my diamond plates will out live me. My dad is 100, and still goes in to work. I am not going to retire until my birth certificate expires and I want to be like my dad, so 28 or so more years, hopefully. I think the main wear thing is build up of swarf on the stones. Diamond seems to be worse about this than the water stones, mostly because you are always surfacing the water stones. I have heard all sorts of cleaning solutions for the CBN wheels and plates. Oven cleaner, any dish soap, etc. No clear winner. Give them a good soap soak, then scrub brush and dry off. There are abrasive sticks of hard aluminum oxide that are sold for the CBN wheels, but I won't use them, mostly because of the dust and as near as I can tell, they don't do any more than the Trend Lapping fluid. As for glass cleaners, you want ones without ammonia in them. The ammonia can bother the nickel plating that is used to bond the abrasives to the plates.

There is one of the big name guys on You Tube, Rob Cossman, can't remember, and he goes from 1000 grit straight to the 16000 grit. To me, that is too big of a jump if you are trying to polish out scratches. Maybe if you are just polishing the secondary bevel and not the whole bevel or back of the blade.

robo hippy

[Mike Henderson]

There is one of the big name guys on You Tube, Rob Cossman, can't remember, and he goes from 1000 grit straight to the 16000 grit. To me, that is too big of a jump if you are trying to polish out scratches. Maybe if you are just polishing the secondary bevel and not the whole bevel or back of the blade.

robo hippy

That's basically what I do. I establish a primary bevel at 25 degrees using a diamond plate on a WorkSharp. Then I go to an 8000 water stone and put on a secondary bevel. When I finish, there are no scratches in the secondary bevel.

Regarding diamond stones wearing out, I have some DMT diamond plates that are maybe 20 years old and they still work well.

Mike

[Richard Coers]

Guess I'll add my $.02. Once I learned to grind, my stone technique got very easy. Three strokes on a stone is fine for each grit. I don't make a mess with my King water stones since I lay down the lid from the tub that holds my stones. I don't like diamonds stones for the same reason I don't like carbide insert turning tools. I am a traditionalist and learning to grind and sharpen is just part of being a craftsman. I don't buy something because I want a short cut. Less than 3 minutes on water stones is just perfect for me. I'm 70 years old and still use the stones I bought 35 years ago. Pretty sure they will last the rest of my active years. See how nice proper grinding reduces stone wear?

[Thomas Wilson]

Guess I'll add my $.02. Once I learned to grind, my stone technique got very easy. Three strokes on a stone is fine for each grit. I don't make a mess with my King water stones since I lay down the lid from the tub that holds my stones. I don't like diamonds stones for the same reason I don't like carbide insert turning tools. I am a traditionalist and learning to grind and sharpen is just part of being a craftsman. I don't buy something because I want a short cut. Less than 3 minutes on water stones is just perfect for me. I'm 70 years old and still use the stones I bought 35 years ago. Pretty sure they will last the rest of my active years. See how nice proper grinding reduces stone wear?

“To err is human, to really foul things up requires an eight inch grinder.” -Alexander Pope-Wilson

[Keegan Shields]

Thats why I use a Tormek jig!

[George Yetka]

I started with duo sharps and film. never got anything truly sharp but got good usable edges. Bought up chosera stones 1/2/3/5/10. Now I get pretty amazing edges on my stuff I have a dia-flat plate to true the stones.

With the duo sharp the highest grits are too low. I ended up selling the set. The maintenace is the only thing saved and the maintenance is 20 seconds every few blades sharpened

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I knew a guy who did professional sharpening (as one of this things) and he only used diamonds.

I was told (but never attempted to verify) that the edge left by a diamond left a more jagged edge than many other sharpening mediums. A jagged edge is more likely to break down faster.

I was also told that if I sharpen with a Norton Crystolon stone and a Norton India stone of similar grit, that I should expect a smoother edge from the India stone. For this I think it was related to either particle size (but I thought that was grit) or perhaps how consistent is that grit? Because when you have 400 grit, that really means 400 +/- something. But the Crystolon will leave deeper scratches that are more difficult to get out. I assume that a diamond probably has similar qualities.

In reality does any of this matter? I don't really know. Using what you have is a great thing. If you want something very fine that will not need to be flattened, you also have other choices such as Spyderco Ceramic stones. I prefer the Norton Ascent Ceramic Stones because they are guaranteed flat and apparently some people have had to flatten their Spyderco Ceramic stones. Exteremely Fine Ascent Ceramic Stones are listed at about 8000 grit and Fine about 4000 Grit. You can use them dry (or not) and in general you do not need to flatten them.

That said, your total system is more important. I use a Tormek to establish a hollow grind and then I free hand on my Shapton Glass stones usually stopping at 16K but I also have the 30K stone. If you learn to strop, you probably do not need anything that fine.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Ill offer my 2 cents. I love my shaptons but i have and use DMT plates on cap irons, card scrapers and anything else i am worried will gouge the waterstones.

[Mike Brady]

Well, that settles that!;)

[Sam E Miller]

There really should be a definitive thread on this damn sharpening question to settle this once and for all! Oh wait, that’s been done about 19,000 times!

Personally, I use stones made from crushed unicorn teeth, with camel saliva as a lubricant. I’ve found this combination is THE ULTIMATE sharpening system.

I find these threads hilarious 🤣

[Jim Koepke]

There really should be a definitive thread on this damn sharpening question to settle this once and for all! Oh wait, that’s been done about 19,000 times!

Personally, I use stones made from crushed unicorn teeth, with camel saliva as a lubricant. I’ve found this combination is THE ULTIMATE sharpening system.

I find these threads hilarious ��

Merry Christmas Sam. If everyone used the same steel to do the same tasks as everyone else, then a definitive thread on sharpening might emerge.

Since there are so many paths to the same end, we will likely continue to wander on every path available until the end of time.

My thoughts on many subjects is to look at things as if the inquiry is from someone reading their first post as a newcomer to the hobby.

If someone somewhere learns something new from such a so often repeated subject, then maybe the world is better for it.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Merry Christmas Sam. If everyone used the same steel to do the same tasks as everyone else, then a definitive thread on sharpening might emerge.

Since there are so many paths to the same end, we will likely continue to wander on every path available until the end of time.

My thoughts on many subjects is to look at things as if the inquiry is from someone reading their first post as a newcomer to the hobby.

If someone somewhere learns something new from such a so often repeated subject, then maybe the world is better for it.

jtk
Here, here! Quite!

[andy bessette]

Merry Christmas Jim. Good post.

[Tom M King]

Like Yogi said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it. I don't think I've missed many fork branches in trying things to sharpen on.

Merry Christmas all!

[Reed Gray]

My whole point in starting this thread was to try to find out if there were any technical advantages to either sharpening system. Other than the maintenance required for the water stones, it seems to be a matter of choice, and what works best for you. Can't really say I learned anything new.

robo hippy

[James Pallas]

I usually think of songs or sayings when reading these threads: Paul Simmons “Fifty Ways to Leave Your Lover”, Bullwinkles: “It’s a Baffling Mystery”, or the latest: “Unicorn” method, a mythical elusive creature.😂
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

My whole point in starting this thread was to try to find out if there were any technical advantages to either sharpening system. Other than the maintenance required for the water stones, it seems to be a matter of choice, and what works best for you. Can't really say I learned anything new.

robo hippy

On the contrary Reed, you may have learned if your shavings are like the ones in my post on 12/4, then your current system is working fine as it is.

You may have learned a continual quest for a sharper edge can be an expensive journey on a road of diminishing returns.

If you really haven't learned anything new, then you must have known more than your original post indicated.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

My whole point in starting this thread was to try to find out if there were any technical advantages to either sharpening system. Other than the maintenance required for the water stones, it seems to be a matter of choice, and what works best for you. Can't really say I learned anything new.

robo hippy

The only technical advantages are that diamond sharpening plates tend to remove material more quickly. They also have their drawbacks.
Just like turning tool sharpening which you know well, It's just a balancing act trying to find the right combination of time, price, ease of use, etc., in order to achieve the end result that satisfies you.

I dabbled in a few different methods early on to a very limited degree and settled on a granite sharpening plate and sheet abrasives. For me, this is the best method for sharpening all my edges (without becoming obsessed) to working sharp.

There are just as many ways to sharpen the knife as there are ways to skin that cat.