Advice please on installing glass within walnut wine doors

[Joel Gelman]

I am making a couple of wine doors (figured walnut). See picture. The glass fits in a rectangle opening. In the picture, you can see the trim holding the glass in place (view from the front). The trim is 3/4 wide and 0.42 inches thick with a 3/16 roundover and mitered. It is held in place by glue an pins.

I did not do the back yet. One option would be to turn it over, lay in the glass, and do the same from the back. However, I want the option of being able to remove the glass some time should that ever be necessary. Those pins are so strong (I did a test piece), that if the glass ever had to be removed, it would be quite damaging. If the wood trim were thicker I would use the P-10 clamex. I was thinking I could install trim screws (which seem to be black 1 5/8) and pre-drill at a slight angle, and accept that the heads would be seen when you open the doors (French doors) and look from behind.

However, I was hoping someone would have a better idea for having a nice appearance.

Thanks.490228

[Kevin Jenness]

A section drawing would help. I assume the fixed stops are pinned through the narrow edge, parallel to the door face. The profile is problematic for pinning the loose stops in that fashion with the glass in place. Even if the trim screws are acceptable visually, how would they be oriented? Are you thinking of driving them through the face of the stops toward the inside corner where the stops meet the frame, without hitting the glass?

When making glass cabinet doors I usually run a 1/4" wide rabbet on the frame parts and assemble them with a half-lap and spline tenon at the corners, then stop the glass with either a 1/4" thick quirk bead or square stops. The square stops with butted corners are easier to remove if necessary than a mitered molding pinned through its face. A wide stop like you plan is more difficult to fasten, especially on both sides of the glass, and hard to locate the fixed side in a flat plane.

You could do without fasteners by holding the glass and stops in place with silicone dots or use glazing points and putty (old school). Some people use a plastic barbed stop molding set in a groove or face mounted swing stop hardware, but besides looking tacky you've gone past that point. If you have room you could use a rabbeted stop molding pinned or screwed to the back face of the frame.

What are wine doors? Cabinet doors, or an entrance to a cellar?

[Warren Lake]

Joel ive done stuff like this in the long past. Yes you do see the screws. Like a bollection moulding, could have been lighter but fine as well. May or may be to your taste.

490229

[Thomas McCurnin]

Too late for my method--I keep the front flat, and to a deep rabbet in the back, place the glass in and either use steel brads to hold the glass (fussy) or cut some narrow stock and but it up to the glass and secure the stock with pins through pre-drilled holes. Usually only a light tap to sink the pins.

[Mel Fulks]

I use a small bead of acrylic caulk all around in the rabbet. Put the glass in. Then use the “glazing points “ to hold glass in place . Do not
press them at all down-ward, only parallel with rabbet. Old way was old-time putty and I’ve used it, but not gonna do that again .
P.S. I said “small bead” but using more than that might be better for first attempt to give more support. Some guys put cardboard shims
all around about 2 or 3 inches apart to make sure that all the caulk doesn’t get all pushed out. I think it’s a good idea and always use them.
Put the caulk in first ,then the cardboard. Oops I forgot to mention the modern cardboard back or old time wood back.

[Joel Gelman]

490231490232

Thank you for the comments. These are to be French wine cabinet-cellar doors where the inside is refrigerated. The glass is around 5/8 thick and double pane with argon in the middle. The wood is 1 3/4 thick. I am showing a picture from the back where the glass will rest up against the back of the strip inside the opening. Then another picture with the arrow is with me holding a piece of trim in place as it will be installed when I install the glass. The idea is for it to look from the back as close as possible to how it looks from the front but have it to the back trim can be removed should there ever be a need to replace the glass.

[Kevin Jenness]

Ok, now I understand that you need a wide rabbet/molding to cover the IGU spacer. Nailing a wide thin stop shaped like yours with a nail gun is sketchy. A quirk bead or beveled stop is easier. You may want to drill and hand drive pins. Removing a pinned mitered molding like that without damage is not easy. A rabbeted stop attached to the back face is more functional but may not be visually acceptable.

[John Kananis]

That's quite a bit of glass. I would make a normal frame for it as though it was a regular (but thick) panel and leave the panel groove a little wider so the glass can move a tiny bit in all 4 directions when held inside. Use spaceballs, a dab of silicone, whatever in the groove on each side so the glass no longer moves. Then glue the top rail to the stiles and join the bottom rail to the stiles with a dowel and a screw ( plug the screw if you're so inclined - screws alone would eventually make it sloppy, the dowel will help keep it 'correct'). If you ever need to replace the glass, drill out the dowel, unscrew and you can remove the bottom rail to slide in new glass.

Edit: I'm assuming a small door.

[Joel Gelman]

Appreciate the advice. I am trying to make it so the appearance from behind the door looks similar to the appearance from the front. Yes, planning to use space balls.

For the front part of the trim that was completed, it was done with glue and pins. That was done with the glass in place with spacers under the glass to allow the appropriate reveal from the front. Before that happened, there were tests done with the nail gun oriented in fixed positions with shims to select the exact correct angle to avoid the nail going into the glass, and when that was dialed in, easy. Not concerned about getting the back in place. I just want to have it removable.

At this point, I am thinking pre-drilling and using trim screws, where I drill at the exact angle needed using my old radial drill press. I will be sure to make the spacing just right so it looks even. then a bit of countersink. The only thing not hidden will be the flush heads of the trim screws. I have the #1 square drive 1 5/8 but if anyone knows of something in 1 1/4 and/or brown, and/or smaller, I would be interested.

For dowels on the trim piece, that is an interesting idea. I never drilled out a dowel to remove a screw before. I have used dowels when making Maloof style furniture, but those were way bigger screws and larder diameter dowels that were made with ebony.

[Cameron Wood]

Your first pic appears to show single pane glass.

I would use glazing tape against the fixed stop. This holds the glass in place, and then the removable stops can be let in to a shallow groove, tacked, or caulked in place.

Don't forget the setting blocks.

[Joel Gelman]

Thanks. Yes, it may appear to look like a single pane, but it for sure is double and total thickness is around 5/8.

[Randall J Cox]

I have glass cabinet doors, all soft closing, in my kitchen and the glass is held in only with a bead of silicone all around the edge. The house was built to high specs by the owner builder (he is a general contractor) for himself. He lived in this house (4300 sq ft) for 15 years before I bought it. He built many custom homes before this one. Randy

[Warren Lake]

mickey mouse way to hold glass in, Reeks of cheap.

[Bill Dufour]

On advantage you have is that there is no need to worry much about wood expansion contraction with humidity or temperturarure changes.
Bill D

[Joe Calhoon]

Joel,
these wine cabinet doors sound like they are as big as house doors? IGU install would be the same. Don’t use spaceballs. Very important to use glazing blocks so both pieces of IG are supported otherwise you will have seal failure down the road. If the doors are heavy also important to block bottom hinge corner both directions and top lock side the same to transfer the weight over to the hinge side to eliminate sagging.
I think trim screws are a good idea for practical glass replacement when that occurs. I did that on the windows in my own house. Some of my customers approve of that idea and some not but if you have to replace glass you will be thankful. Trim screws are available in a few different colors online.
I have a system from Austria that is a nailless glass bead system. I tried it for a while but our work is so varied it didn’t work out and not possible to do curves with it. I’ll snap a couple pictures of that tomorrow.

[Dave Sabo]

I've used pin nail or brads (no glue) to hold in those stops on glass fronts for decades. Doesn't take many 3 -4 max and when it comes time to swap panels a semi-flexible putty knife is all that needed to get the center of the stop loose from the frame.

Granted , mine aren't 1/2" thick x 3/4" wide. If you can't re-think the stop size, I'd just make up a 2nd batch for when the glass has to be replaced.

[Randall J Cox]

mickey mouse way to hold glass in, Reeks of cheap.

Seems to work fine. Of course its not double pane.

[Warren Lake]

sure it does, so do pocket holes

[Steven Mehl]

For small doors like on this TV cabinet I've used a biscuit cutter to make a cut in the rail and stiles just deep enough to work with a glass retainer. The glass is fairly thick textured glass from a stained glass store.

490303

[Warren Lake]

Kevin mentioned a drawing, I always like to see things full scale. Dave said 1/2 x 3/4 for the size of the strips. If they are that large can you use some small round magnets in the strips and in the rails and styles.

[Stan Calow]

Rockler has 1/4" quarter-round in walnut (oak and birch too) that I tack into place with a pin nailer. It could be pried off if necessary.

[Warren Lake]

there are always ways or a way to solve stuff. Full scale and knowing what im dealing with then go from there. If I had a door and a reason to have strips out at a later date I could see the strips machined with a lip on them that goes into a slot in three of the four rails and styles. Or Lamelloes.

They could machined with a bend so the mitres hold them tight in all corners and the preload from end to end holding them tight. 3 done that way and the fourth strip the same preload and magnets. If you had to take them out at a later date the magnet one comes out easy. The other three of them now pulled away from the ends where the mitres are as they were machined to have a bow in them they stayed in the lip or lamello. There are number 10 lamelloes which are large and also some very small size below that. Know have used them past in splines. Width of lamelloes can be reduced easy on an edge sander.

If the engineering gets too big then making twice or more as many strips as needed is fine as well. Small screw heads good as well. Smallest id past used were #4 1" or 1 1/4" heads were very small on those though what I used were galvanized. In a dark head they would blend and just about disapear

[Joe Calhoon]

Joel,
this is the Knapp glazing bead attachment system. It only works for 18 and 20 mm wide beads. I think Paul Knapp is still set up for sales in the US. Just Google Knapp Connectors.
It has a plastic extrusion that is screwed into the sash that holds the glass. A special shaper or moulder cutter is used to profile the back side of the bead. The IG is secured and the beads just pressed in for a friction fit.I played with it for a bit but this is a dry glazing system and I prefer wet glazing. This will not do curved beads and that is a big part of my work.
490378

[Ole Anderson]

I don't worry about removing glass in the future. I lay a tiny bead of clear silicone in a rabbit and bed the glass in that. No rattling and the glass becomes part of the structure. Don't bother with a keeper strip.
490438

[Warren Lake]

Joe thanks for positing that clip system it looks good. You need three separate steps to machine what is needed for that? Two on the strip and one on rails and styles? How do you release it lift up on the bottom edge with a putty knife?

[Joel Gelman]

These 1 3/4 thick 7 ft x 34 inch wide doors were to be made several years ago. I had other remodel projects to work on, and had no experience with making doors like this with glass to be used with seals for a refrigerated unit. Therefore, I hired someone who represented himself as a licensed contractor specializing in wine cellar design and installation. I said I would do the racking. As the project progressed, it became apparent he was not all that much of an expert, and with some digging, I found out he was not licensed. He ended up cited by the California CSLB, and I received a refund of my generous deposit. I then asked Joe, but he was backed up, and I ended up hiring someone do it who is a friend with a high end woodshop and a business making custom products. That was a couple of years ago, and he just never got it done. The doors did get laminated with mortises. So, at that point, I became involved along with a talented friend where the doors are now at my shop.

The wood originally selected had a lot of sap, and ended up not being used. I was able to purchase slabs of wood once owned by Sam Maloof (see picture when the wood was in slab form). Nice grain, yes? Originally the plan was solid and that was changed to LVL core. One of the pictures is what has been my wine doors for 3 years. It is 2 inch rigid foam from Home Depot held by velcro. Another picture is of the inside showing the racking I did so far with top racking to follow. Another picture is of a cabinet door with a profile I had made for shaper cutters for cabinets. The wine doors are to be similar with a rail and stile frame, and a strip inside that is rectangular with a roundover. One of the attachments is a drawing, but the strip changed from a step design to a rectangle 3/4 x 0.42 inches with a 3/16 roundover.

So many things I do not know and I do not want to screw it up. I think my idea of having someone else do this project was a good one, but since it did not work out that way, oh well. I would have to say it is a good learning experience for me, and I am being careful not to screw it up, especially with the wood that was used. For that reason I was seeking advice and appreciate the comments, especially from Ultimate Joe! Input greatly appreciated
490477




490469490470490471490472490473490474490475490476ee ee

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe thanks for positing that clip system it looks good. You need three separate steps to machine what is needed for that? Two on the strip and one on rails and styles? How do you release it lift up on the bottom edge with a putty knife?
Warren, nothing on the sash. The picture just shows a Typical euro window that has additional grooves for expansion, weeping etc.
yes just release it with a putty knife or scraper.
I also tried the Rover system. It’s a little simpler but not as robust.https://www.roverplastik.it/prodotti/soluzioni-per-il-vetro/

[Warren Lake]

thanks Joe

Whats with that middle core, is that the latest version of stave core?

[Joe Calhoon]

It’s wood Warren. The picture is just distorted. The scantling producers in Europe do offer insulated cores for doors and windows with cork and other material embedded in the core.

[vince dale]

This would be my choice. L shaped with a nice rounded edge. Easy to install, easy to replace and strong.


Joel ive done stuff like this in the long past. Yes you do see the screws. Like a bollection moulding, could have been lighter but fine as well. May or may be to your taste.

490229

[Warren Lake]

I have antique eyes, that middle core is not picture distortion. Old guy drew me the 6" church door and the different ways the cores went made my head spin.

Ive never seen what they have done here clearly there are a number of layers going on in that middle core.

Sticking three pieces of wood together is the new way, middle stave cores were sideways.

This middle core done this way ive not seen before.




490591

[Joe Calhoon]

Typical for window scantlings Warren. Doors can be done many ways.
Knock yourself out looking at scantlings here.
https://holz-schiller.de/en-gb/homepage/

[Warren Lake]

took a look, the place is massive. Different cores but did not see that one. Its different than with so many laminations in the middle core.