IF I bought a Festool sander and vac...

[Matt Meiser]

Not saying that I'm going to do it, but IF I were to buy a Festool sander and vac, what would you recommend?

I'd want the sander to be my main sander for 95+% of what I do. Currently I have a PC VS333 which I use all the time and a Ridgid 6" sander that I got last summer but haven't used much yet. My impression has always been that 6" sanders aren't finish sanders, but searching the archives, it looks like a lot of people use the ETS 150/5 for the bulk of their work. My options look to include the ETS 150/3, 150/5, and ES 125.

For the vac, I'm wondering if I'd be happy with the CT Mini? I'd want to obviously use it to collect dust from the sander, but also from my PC circular saw with my EZ Smart system. Since Ridgid doesn't publish CFM specs, I'm not sure how my current vac would compare to the Festools.

The price range is big--the ES 125 + Mini is $390 while upgrading to the ETS 150 sanders and the CT 22 vac make it a $590 purchase. Getting the $390 approved would be a lot easier, but I don't want to make the mistake of buying too small.

[Michael Ballent]

Well I do not have either of those two machines... But as far as capacity to suck up dust, both the vacs will do well... I guess it's really a question of how often do you want to change out the bag... on the 150/5 or 150/3 the 150/5 is supposed to be more agressive like PC333 and the 150/3 is not as agressive. So if you are doing lots of plywood work the 150/3 would probably be a better choice.

But be careful... once you get into the Festool world its like crack ;) can't get enough :D and yes once my PC 333 up and croaks I will be replacing it with a Festool... I already have a Fein Vac that has served be well so far :D

[Frank Pellow]

I would recommend the RO_150_E sander and CT-22 vac.

It seems that a lot of other folks agree with me because, on the tool inventory database that is maintained for the Festool Owners Group, the ranking of sanders by folks who own them is:


RO_150_E_______________47
ETS_150/3_EQ___________30
LS_130_EQ______________28
RO_125_FEQ_____________23
DS_400_EQ______________18
DX_93_E________________14
ETS_125_EQ_____________14

and the ranking of shop vacs is:


CT_22_E_________________68
CT_33_E_________________19
CT_MINI__________________6

[Tim Sproul]

Matt,

How clean is your wood to start with? If it is coming off a lunchbox finish planer, it needs a lot less work than coming off the 'fast' speed of a typical 15 inch stationary planer.

The ETS 150 sanders will leave an impeccable surface. If you want a round sander and only one, I'd go with the 150/5. Another option to consider is the half-sheet sander - RS2E. But it isn't very aggressive....but is easier to control when working on surfaces other than large flats....such as face frames or frame and panel constructions. And you wouldn't believe it....but Festool actually sells the RS2E ready to use NON-FESTOOL abrasives. Just get the $18 'hole punch' steel plate and you can clamp any half-sheet of abrasive and go. You don't need the 'hole punch' as it isn't a difficult thing to punch holes in sandpaper....just that I'm too durn lazy to find the spots myself or to make my own hole punch fixture. Just got mine from Bob last night. It is, like most Festools, a very nice tool. Another benefit is that I can sand right to the edge on an inset surface. So you'll trade off aggressiveness for some versatility by going the half-sheet route. Probably only recommended if you use a lunchbox planer.

I have the RO150, 150/3 and 125 and others. I kinda wish I'd not gotten the 125. I don't think I'd have the 125 if I'd gotten the RS2E first. The 125 though may well come in handy when I need to sand vertical surfaces.

[Russ Massery]

I have the RO150 and the 150/3 with the mini vac. I highly recommend them both. If you were planing to get just one. I would say get the 150/5 and the mini. It took along time to decide,so I got ahold of Bob Marino he helped with the decision making process. Thing I liked the most there was no pressure to buy. I must have called him 4-5 times before I bought.;)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Matt,
I was one of the lucky first time pro buyers that got that special package a couple of years ago. I got the Ct22 plus the 150/3, where the 150 was only $35. They do not offer that anymore. Anyway, I have the rotex, 150/3, 125, and the Deltex. I have needed them all for certain special uses. I use the 125 a lot as it works great for small parts and I use the 150 for assembled pieces. I use the rotex for buffing. The most important thing about the sanders & vac is it does pick up just about all the dust and that as we all know is very important. I no longer cough up my lungs and can sand without a mask on. If you can only do one sander I suppose the Rotex and the Ct22 would work but the Rotex is big. I would say the best setup is the 150, 125 and the Ct22. As far as I know the only difference between the Ct22 & Ct33 is bag capacity.

[Matt Meiser]

I think my decision would be between the CT 22 and the CT Mini for vacuums. The CT Mini does have a lower CFM, but I have no idea how it compares to the CFM of my ridgid shop vac. I'm wondering if it might still be higher?

[James Biddle]

Matt,
I've got the 150/3 sander and I love it! It doesn't do the real aggressive cuts that some do, but 95% of what I sand is large areas in prep for finish and that's where this sander stands out. I've paired my sander with the Fein Turbo II that I already had before I bought the Festool. My BIL just bought the Festool 22 vacuum and although it has features I really like, the Fein's higher auto switch ampere rating is a big plus.

Next time you have a sanding job, borrow my sander (and Fein if you like) and give it a test drive.

[Russ Massery]

If your getting the vac for the sander only. The mini will handle that task just fine. If your going to you with a router or saw I'd go with the CT22.

[Mark Singer]

I have the Rotex 150...I traded up from the 125 Rotex which was not nearly as good. I also have the 150/3 and that is a fine finish sander...Very good dust collection . The rotex will sand out saw marks on the aggressive mode on end grain and switch to fine mode...you have a smooth finish! Great for shaping wood as well

[JayStPeter]

I was using a PC333 before I got my ETS 150/5. The extra size is great. It makes things go much quicker. I honestly don't see why they make both the /5 and /3 as I've used mine for smoothing finishes and it works fine. But, I haven't used a /3 so ...
I will probably get a RO150 eventually as I want the very aggressive mode and the polishing mode.
I doubt I'll ever get a 125 size as it will just be more sandpaper to inventory.

Jay

[Matt Meiser]

I would recommend the RO_150_E sander and CT-22 vac.

It seems that a lot of other folks agree with me because, on the tool inventory database that is maintained for the Festool Owners Group, the ranking of sanders by folks who own them is:


RO_150_E_______________47
ETS_150/3_EQ___________30
LS_130_EQ______________28
RO_125_FEQ_____________23
DS_400_EQ______________18
DX_93_E________________14
ETS_125_EQ_____________14

and the ranking of shop vacs is:


CT_22_E_________________68
CT_33_E_________________19
CT_MINI__________________6

Boy Frank, its like you like working with data or something ;)

[Bill Simmeth]

My BIL just bought the Festool 22 vacuum and although it has features I really like, the Fein's higher auto switch ampere rating is a big plus.Thanks for bringing this up, James. It is the first time I'd heard this. I looked at the respective websites, and boy, it's quite a difference in amperage capacity. From what I found it's 10A vs 19A. Is that right?

[Frank Pellow]

Boy Frank, its like you like working with data or something ;)
Hey, I am an ex-database administrator. And I have a degree in math and physics with a heavy emphasis on statistics.

I guess, even though I am retired from all that, I just can't help myself. :D

[Matt Meiser]

I spent a little time looking up the specs on the vacs and found the following

CFM:
CT Mini 99, Fein Mini Turbo 116, Fein Turbo II 116, CT 22 134

Static Water Lift (inches):
CT Mini 80, Fein Mini Turbo 90, Fein Turbo II 90, CT 22 90

Sound Level (db):
CT Mini 72, CT 22 72, Fein Mini Turbo 63, Fein Turbo II 57.8

Ridgid doesn't list static water lift or sound level. They claim a 5HP (10A, so more like 1.5HP) vac is 150CFM.

Assuming Fein and Festool measure in the same way, It kind of looks like the Fein Mini Turbo on closeout at Woodcraft is the best value for performance. Of course the Festool has an onboard auto switch, onboard hose storage, and a more stable design. I would guess any of these 4 vacs have more flow and suction through a small diamater hose than the Ridgid I have.

[Frank Pellow]

I spent a little time looking up the specs on the vacs and found the following
...
Assuming Fein and Festool measure in the same way, It kind of looks like the Fein Mini Turbo on closeout at Woodcraft is the best value for performance. Of course the Festool has an onboard auto switch, onboard hose storage, and a more stable design.

Also great on the CT22, is the great flat top surface.

[Peter Pedisich]

Hey Frank, where's my RS400?!? I entered it last week.:D

Matt, about the vacs...the ridgid (if anything like mine) is possibly as powerful or more powerful than a CT22 (I have this, too) but as I've recently discovered the variable speed is very helpful with sanders to avoid too much "stiction". And the Festool is quieter than the Ridgid by a LARGE margin (although the new Ridgids have improved).

I thought about the mini also, but figured with a router and biscuit jointer the CT22 would be better.

Lastly, as far as the ampere rating vs the Fein (which I almost got!) I've plugged a 15 amp miter saw into my CT22 on full speed (rabbit) and no problems.

Pete

[Matt Meiser]

Hey, I am an ex-database administrator. And I have a degree in math and physics with a heavy emphasis on statistics.

I guess, even though I am retired from all that, I just can't help myself. :D

I've seen you mention that before. :D

[Tim Sproul]

Thanks for bringing this up, James. It is the first time I'd heard this. I looked at the respective websites, and boy, it's quite a difference in amperage capacity. From what I found it's 10A vs 19A. Is that right?

That doesn't sound right. I've not seen 120V circuits past 20A. The Fein vac is 120V, IIRC and it must have more than a 1A motor to drive the vacuum.

The Festool is rated at 10A because the max capacity receptacle/outlet you should plug into is 20A. The vacuum motor can pull 10A by itself.

If the Fein is 19A, I would be very suspicious that the 19A pull is only when the vacuum is not on.......which kinda negates the whole purpose.

[Matt Meiser]

I thought about the mini also, but figured with a router and biscuit jointer the CT22 would be better.

I forgot about the biscuit joiner. So I would be using this vac with a TBD Festool sander, a PC biscuit joiner, and a PC circular saw.

[Matt Meiser]

If the Fein is 19A, I would be very suspicious that the 19A pull is only when the vacuum is not on.......which kinda negates the whole purpose.

That might be the rating of the contacts or the electronics in the switch circuit???

[Jim Becker]

I chose the 150/3 with the CT22 for this. (I do own the Rotex 150, too, but don't use it that much) I find that the 150/3 is agressive enough for the type of sanding I do and it's nearly total lack of vibration means I can sand for "a very long time" without losing the feeling in my hands and arms.

As to the sound level, remember you can turn down the speed on the Festool CT22...I run it at about half speed when sanding. Any more isn't usually necessary and just makes the thing "stick" to the workpiece a little harder. I also looked at the Fein which is a great vac, but found the physical format of the Festool vac to be much more convenient for my use and needs.

[Frank Pellow]

A couple more statistics from the Festool Owners Group database that may (or may not) help you Matt.

Two thirds of the members who reported their inventory and who own Festool sanders, own two or more sanders.

Of the one third who own only one sander, this is the number of sanders owned by type:


RO_125_FEQ___11

RO_150_E______8

ETS_150/5_EQ___6

ETS_150/3_EQ___3

ETS_125_EQ_____1

RS_400_EQ______1

LS_130_EQ______0

DX_93_E________0

DS_400_EQ_____0

[Rob Blaustein]

Matt,
I went with the 150/3 and like it , although I haven't used it all that much. (but didn't enter it into the database--sorry Frank). It doesn't hog off wood as much as I thought it might, even with 80 grit, but I don't think I'd need to do that very often. If I did I might just get the Rotex or add it one day if I think I'd need it. I use it with my Fein Turbo II cause I already had one and didn't feel like getting another vac, but there are some things to keep in mind about that combo:

1. As Jim B. points out, the Festool vac has the nice feature that you can lower the vacuum level, which I'm guessing is a good idea for the sander. I suspect that I am not sanding ideally and wonder if my Fein sucks the sander to the piece too much.

2. If you go Fein plus Festool sander, you'll need to figure out a way to join the two. Easiest is just getting a Festool hose.

If you can take someone up on their offer to try one out, as above, I would.

Rob

[Matt Meiser]

It looks like the Fein Turbo I which replaces the Mini Turbo is out now. It has the same specs as the Mini Turbo, but add the auto switch.

[Bill Simmeth]

That doesn't sound right. I've not seen 120V circuits past 20A.NEMA 5-30 is a 120V, 30A receptacle/plug scheme. Granted, you don't see them everyday, but they're out there.
30429

HTH,

[Steven Wilson]

I use the Rotax (RO150) for aggressive sanding and buffing, an ETS 150/3 for finish sanding (replaced the PC 333), an RS400 for finish sanding especially corners, and the CT22 Vac. If doing over I wouldn't change a thing

[Dave Avery]

Matt,

If you're only going to buy one, I'd go with the Rotex. It can do it all, though it is a bit heavy. If you do a LOT of sanding, that might be an issue. If you're a typical hobbiest as I am, it has not been an issue at all. I have the CT-22 vac and I've been very happy with it. All the best. Dave.

[Scott Coffelt]

If you have the Ridgid 6", it is pretty aggressive, so you can get buy with a 150/3 or 150/5. Of course, I think I would hit up uncle BOB. Vacs, I have the Fein-mini and it works fine, but if I were to buy I would probably get the CT22.

[Scott Coffelt]

I spent a little time looking up the specs on the vacs and found the following

CFM:
CT Mini 99, Fein Mini Turbo 116, Fein Turbo II 116, CT 22 134

Static Water Lift (inches):
CT Mini 80, Fein Mini Turbo 90, Fein Turbo II 90, CT 22 90

Sound Level (db):
CT Mini 72, CT 22 72, Fein Mini Turbo 63, Fein Turbo II 57.8

Ridgid doesn't list static water lift or sound level. They claim a 5HP (10A, so more like 1.5HP) vac is 150CFM.

Assuming Fein and Festool measure in the same way, It kind of looks like the Fein Mini Turbo on closeout at Woodcraft is the best value for performance. Of course the Festool has an onboard auto switch, onboard hose storage, and a more stable design. I would guess any of these 4 vacs have more flow and suction through a small diamater hose than the Ridgid I have.

I have that set up and it works fine for me, I use a X10 that I had lying around to turn it on and off with remote. The new Mini will have an auto on/off feature. For the money it is a good vac and comes with attachments. There are two advantages I see with the Festool over my mini (1)hepa filter and adjustable air flow which I hear can be nice for sanding. Then again, I use bags in my mini and don't seem to have dust problems and I never see any issues from too much air.

[Scott Coffelt]

One last thing I use my mini with the ATF55, Dewalt biscuit jointer, PC 8529, OF1400, and a bunch of other stuff. They all work great and the collection is awesome. Again, I do like the CT22 and may buy at some time, but since I have a mini already it's hard to justify the additional money to spend then not use the mini.

[Jesse Cloud]

Bob Marino explained to me that Festool aims the mini vac at installers and the CT22 and higher at shops. Kinda makes sense. Being lazy, my choice goes for the big bag!

[Matt Meiser]

Boy, you guys sure make it hard :D

It sounds like I really probably should only consider the Turbo II or the CT 22. Both have good and bad (or at least not ideal) points, and I have more questions for you owners. If I buy either of these vacs now, I probably have to hold off buying a sander, especially since most people are recommending the more expensive 6" sanders. This means I'll be using my existing Porter Cable and Ridgid sanders for some time to come.

First, what do I need to do to adapt a Festool hose to fit my PC tools with the 1" OD connection? How about tools with a 1-1/4" ID connection?

Does the Fein fit tools with the 1-1/4" connection without adapters? I read somewhere it will fit the PC tools with some tape wrapped around the tool's connection.

Why can't the Fein hose be adapted to fit Festool tools? Is it that its not even close? Or could I make it work with a little engineering?

Is the 10A limit on the Festool port real, or because circuits are 20A and running the vac and 10A tool max's the circuit? I run my current 10A vac and 15A circular saw on the same circuit without trouble--never actually thought about it being heavily loaded before this thread. Obviously those ratings are not accurate in general use--probably only with the saw cutting in heavy material and the vac plugged.

Pluses for the Festool include variable speed, hose that fits Festool tools, more stable design. Minus is the cost, lower rating on the auto switch and the unknown of if the hose fits my current tools.

Pluses for the Fein include the higher rating on the auto switch, hose that is more likely to fit my tools, cost. Minuses include probably having to buy a Festool hose, less stable design.

Neither vac comes standard with storage for hose, so its a wash there (that was a plus on the CT Mini :( ) The Festool is louder at full speed, but quieter at lower speeds which would usually be used for sanding. I can actually purchase both locally from the same store. He's pushing the Festool harder, but still carries both. The only drawback to buying locally is sales tax. I mean at least until next year when I dutifully report my mail order purchases at tax time. ;) Honestly, I'm leaning towards the Fein as the one with more value/$, but I'd really like the Festool.

[Jim Becker]

Matt, don't forget that if you buy the Festool sander with the Festool vac...there can be an additional discount involved. Talk to Uncle Bob about that! BTW, you'll pay sales tax on Festool pretty much everywhere...if there is an ISA in your state (and there obviously is), they collect tax. I pay tax in PA for Festool, even though I buy from Bob in NJ and it's shipped from another state directly by the vendor. Why? There are Festool ISAs in PA which count as a "presence".

[Rick Shelton]

Does the Fein fit tools with the 1-1/4" connection without adapters?
Fein sells a step adaptor that will fit the PC sander or anything else between 1 1/4" to 1" (4 steps). You can cut it off to fit whatever.


Why can't the Fein hose be adapted to fit Festool tools?
Probably can, but Festool isn't going to make it easy. This is the only thing that I dislike about the Festool "system". Great tools, but they don't play well with others. :)


Pluses for the Fein include the higher rating on the auto switch, hose that is more likely to fit my tools, cost. Minuses include probably having to buy a Festool hose, less stable design.
Another plus for the Fein: no filter bags to buy for the Fein

I've had the Turbo II for over 5 years now. Great vacuum and was the only one to consider until Festool came along, IMO. Two things I don't like about the Fein, cheesy little wheels and the most uncomfortable handle you'll ever find on a (otherwise) fine vacuum.

Good Luck.

[John Miliunas]

Only one Festool sander??? The 150/5 is the easy choice, IMHO. I have 4 Festool sanders and that 150/5 is my "go to" unit 90% of the time! Great control, smooth, aggressive if you want it to be but, plenty docile to take care of finishing work just as easily. :) :cool:

[James Biddle]

Boy, you guys sure make it hard :D

It sounds like I really probably should only consider the Turbo II or the CT 22. Both have good and bad (or at least not ideal) points, and I have more questions for you owners. If I buy either of these vacs now, I probably have to hold off buying a sander, especially since most people are recommending the more expensive 6" sanders. This means I'll be using my existing Porter Cable and Ridgid sanders for some time to come.

First, what do I need to do to adapt a Festool hose to fit my PC tools with the 1" OD connection? How about tools with a 1-1/4" ID connection?

Does the Fein fit tools with the 1-1/4" connection without adapters? I read somewhere it will fit the PC tools with some tape wrapped around the tool's connection.

Why can't the Fein hose be adapted to fit Festool tools? Is it that its not even close? Or could I make it work with a little engineering?

Is the 10A limit on the Festool port real, or because circuits are 20A and running the vac and 10A tool max's the circuit? I run my current 10A vac and 15A circular saw on the same circuit without trouble--never actually thought about it being heavily loaded before this thread. Obviously those ratings are not accurate in general use--probably only with the saw cutting in heavy material and the vac plugged.

Pluses for the Festool include variable speed, hose that fits Festool tools, more stable design. Minus is the cost, lower rating on the auto switch and the unknown of if the hose fits my current tools.

Pluses for the Fein include the higher rating on the auto switch, hose that is more likely to fit my tools, cost. Minuses include probably having to buy a Festool hose, less stable design.

Neither vac comes standard with storage for hose, so its a wash there (that was a plus on the CT Mini :( ) The Festool is louder at full speed, but quieter at lower speeds which would usually be used for sanding. I can actually purchase both locally from the same store. He's pushing the Festool harder, but still carries both. The only drawback to buying locally is sales tax. I mean at least until next year when I dutifully report my mail order purchases at tax time. ;) Honestly, I'm leaning towards the Fein as the one with more value/$, but I'd really like the Festool.

Buying the Festool vac now and the sander later gives up a substantial package savings.

The Festool hose fits fine on the PC biscuit jointer I have, the Fein needs a Fein step adapter and a little tape. The Festool hose fits on the Dewalt 618 plunge base without the Dewalt included adapter, the Fein fits the plunge with the adapter.

I put a few wraps of rubber tape around the Festool sander and slid a Fein straight adapter onto the tape and it worked OK at best (still slipped off at times). I've seen an adapter duct-taped to the Festool sander (ugly, but it works). If you ever decide to buy a Festool circular saw or other tool that has an oval shape to it, you'll probably bite the bullet and buy the Festool hose to avoid a lot of hair pulling. I found it easier all around to have the extra Festool hose with the Fein so I can hook up whichever fits the tool at hand better. (Actually, I might have bought a Fein hose if I had the Festool vac.) Anyway, Festool should realize there are more tools in the world besides theirs and make one adapter to fit their vac onto other equipment and another adapter to fit other vacs onto their tools (might actually generate more sales for them).

The ratings for power tools used on the vac autostart are internal ratings of the vac circuitry and not to be confused with your shop circuit ratings. Hard to say how much of a safety factor is included in those ratings.

No matter where you buy Festool equipment, Festool will charge you Michigan sales tax (sorry).

Wanna buy my year-old Fein and I'll buy a new Festool? ;)

[James Biddle]

I've had the Turbo II for over 5 years now. Great vacuum and was the only one to consider until Festool came along, IMO. Two things I don't like about the Fein, cheesy little wheels and the most uncomfortable handle you'll ever find on a (otherwise) fine vacuum.



I don't mind the wheels and handle, but I don't like that there's no place to store the accessories if you don't buy the $60 wire basket that should cost $6.

[Scott Coffelt]

Fein sells a step adaptor that will fit the PC sander or anything else between 1 1/4" to 1" (4 steps). You can cut it off to fit whatever.


Probably can, but Festool isn't going to make it easy. This is the only thing that I dislike about the Festool "system". Great tools, but they don't play well with others. :)


Another plus for the Fein: no filter bags to buy for the Fein

I've had the Turbo II for over 5 years now. Great vacuum and was the only one to consider until Festool came along, IMO. Two things I don't like about the Fein, cheesy little wheels and the most uncomfortable handle you'll ever find on a (otherwise) fine vacuum.

Good Luck.

As stated I have the mini Fein. I use the step adpaters and cut them to fit each of my festool tools. You actually only have about a 2" piece attached and they work fine. I will try and remember to post a pic tonight of the set up if desired by folks.

[Matt Meiser]

I will try and remember to post a pic tonight of the set up if desired by folks.

I'd like to see that.

[Tyler Howell]

The Festool Mini has been a great asset to my shop. With all the remuttling going on, easy and portable.
It is also a great help in transporting and storage of other Systainers. Really like the stacking system. Rotex has been a great performer for heavy work and the I'm just waiting for the PC333 to die so I can add another Fes to the pile. I keep mysteriously knocking the PC on the floor:rolleyes: .
I tried the adapters for my Fein and all the connections got unwieldy. Finally bought the Mini.
Not sure if it has been said but the Festool hoses are a great fit for the Fein Vacs.
PS the Mini Is not a shop Vac it is a "Dust Extractor"!!!!!:D

[Matt Meiser]

I stopped by the local distributor after work today and tried out the ETS 150/3 and CT 22. We also tried the hose on a couple of the PC tools I have and it fit pretty good. I think with a wrap or two of tape on the tool fittings, it would fit very well. I also looked at the Fein. We had both running on the floor and standing between them, I thought the Fein was a little quieter than the Festool on full speed, but the Festool was definitely quieter on low speed. After adding a Hepa filter to the Fein, both are pretty close to the same cost. I can also use my existing 2-1/2" hose and tools for cleanup with both which would be a cost savings. I really like the sander as well but would probably get the 150/5 model based on comments here.

I'll have to see if I can get SWMBO to bite. I'm going to sell it on the health issues--vibration, dust, and noise. Not sure if she'll let me spend what will be close to $800 with tax, sandpaper, and vac bags though.

[Rob Blaustein]

If the safety features you mention don't clinch it, you can always tell her how long the sandpaper discs last and that you can therefore save money on consumables...

Of course you could always put these on and beg (or pray)...

[Matt Meiser]

I asked tonight and she said yes! :eek: Looks like I'll probably have them by this time next week. :D :D :D :D

It helped a lot that I'm delivering my sliding table to the buyer tomorrow and told her I can sell my current sanders to help fund the purchase--and our anniversary is coming up. Apparently 5 years is the black and green anniversary???