New competitor in the aftermarket hand tool cutting iron world

[Rafael Herrera]

Lake Erie Toolworks has started to offer replacement irons using a recently invented powder metallurgy stainless steel, a new alternative to PM-V11.

https://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/collections/handplane-blades

[Graham Haydon]

For those interested in David Weaver's thoughts he's mentioned these irons here.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/hand-tools.11/

[Jim Koepke]

The price for one blade is more than all but one of my vintage Stanley planes. They don't list a blade for the plane(s) that cost more.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

They're not that much higher than the PM-V11s. Whether they're worth the expense or not is to be determined. Unlike the Lee Valley iron, which has a proprietary formulation, Magnacut is pretty well documented as to its composition and heat treatment regimes. At least from that perspective, one can make an informed decision on whether to buy it or not.

There is one more powder metallurgy iron out there by DFM Toolworks, no details on its heat treatment, though.

https://dfmtoolworks.com/products/cpm-10v-2-plane-blade

[Jim Koepke]

…
Unlike the Lee Valley iron, which has a proprietary formulation, Magnacut is pretty well documented as to its composition and heat treatment regimes. At least from that perspective, one can make an informed decision on whether to buy it or not.
…


With having documentation on one compared to none on the other doesn't seem like having what one needs to "make an informed decision."

I have a couple of PMv-11 blades that perform quite well for me. One is in a spokeshave the other in a shooting plane. Either of these hold up better than any other blade in my shop.

All the irons from Lee Valley to cross my bench have had perfectly flat backs. I didn't see anything about blade finishing on the Magnacut site. A lot of time has been spent flattening the backs of old Stanley and even new "premium" blades. I would hate to have to spend time flattening the back of another blade with such hard steel and a hefty price tag.

jtk

[Larry Frank]

It is interesting to me, A metalllurgist, all the information available for this new steel. There is much more information than provided for most of the other blade steels.

[Patrick Baney]

I’ll update this post later with a more thorough review, just have to get my quick reply in. I have 4 irons from Lake Erie and they’re fantastic. I’ll be putting in a preorder for their next batch as well. I think they’re the best irons on the market. And I’ve tried them all. Stay tuned.

PS - I was born in and reside in Erie. Maybe that makes me biased.

[John Keeton]

I will preface this post by acknowledging that I am in the presence of folks that live and die getting the perfect edge on their blades. My knowledge of the characteristics and wearability of the various CPM and HSS steels used in turning tools is pretty good, but for blades used in hand planes and spoke shaves it is very limited. That said, in my spokeshaves, which I use a lot, and I mean a LOT, in my Stanley shaves the Hock blades performed better than the original blades, but when I switched to the LV PMV-11 the difference was remarkably better. The LN Boggs blades, which I believe are A2, seem to wear very well, but don’t seem to match the LV blades. I don’t regret the cost of the PMV-11, but I wouldn’t pay more as I get miles of usage in oak and don’t know that I could justify the additional cost, particularly if there were sharpening issues.

[Reed Gray]

Hmm, don't really know much about the metals other than how to sharpen them. If the V10 or 11 is comparable to the V10 lathe tools, then it could be a step up. With the new fancy metals, they do give edges that take more abuse before needing to be resharpened. This translates to you can do a lot more roughing work before going back to the bench stones. However, with finish/final cuts on my bowls, I still want a fresh edge. I did make one chisel from a M42 high speed steel blank from D Way tools. I haven't really used it a lot yet. I have chatted with him about the possibility of sending up a plane blade and having a laser cut blank made for my planes. I always have to experiment.....

robo hippy

[Jim Koepke]

It is interesting to me, A metalllurgist, all the information available for this new steel. There is much more information than provided for most of the other blade steels.

As one who is not a metallurgist, the information for this new steel doesn't mean much to me. What does mean a lot to me is how well the backs are flattened. Lee Valley has provided this specific information, including how it was done, in the past. It is worth it to me to purchase a Veritas blade to avoid the time spent getting the back flat. Though there hasn't been a need for me to purchase a blade for years.

In the end, all the technical specifications about the steel means nothing if the blade needs an investment in more specialized sharpening equipment. For those who use Arkansas type stones to sharpen, A2 steel is not an improvement over O1 steel. If any of my A2 blades need sharpening during a cold spell, I am out of luck. SWMBO doesn't like me to do sharpening with water stones in the house.

jtk

[Ben Ellenberger]

As one who is not a metallurgist, the information for this new steel doesn't mean much to me. What does mean a lot to me is how well the backs are flattened. Lee Valley has provided this specific information, including how it was done, in the past. It is worth it to me to purchase a Veritas blade to avoid the time spent getting the back flat. Though there hasn't been a need for me to purchase a blade for years.

In the end, all the technical specifications about the steel means nothing if the blade needs an investment in more specialized sharpening equipment. For those who use Arkansas type stones to sharpen, A2 steel is not an improvement over O1 steel. If any of my A2 blades need sharpening during a cold spell, I am out of luck. SWMBO doesn't like me to do sharpening with water stones in the house.

jtk

Just sharpen in the kitchen sink. Tell her you are doing it because it will be easy to clean up.

I’m sure she won’t mind…

[Charles Guest]

Uh oh, Lee Valley shills' heads exploding in 3-2-1....

[Jim Koepke]

Just sharpen in the kitchen sink. Tell her you are doing it because it will be easy to clean up.

I’m sure she won’t mind…

We have a #10 cast iron frying pan at which she is quite capable of swinging in my direction for such a remark.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

As one who is not a metallurgist, the information for this new steel doesn't mean much to me. What does mean a lot to me is how well the backs are flattened. Lee Valley has provided this specific information, including how it was done, in the past. It is worth it to me to purchase a Veritas blade to avoid the time spent getting the back flat. Though there hasn't been a need for me to purchase a blade for years.

In the end, all the technical specifications about the steel means nothing if the blade needs an investment in more specialized sharpening equipment. For those who use Arkansas type stones to sharpen, A2 steel is not an improvement over O1 steel. If any of my A2 blades need sharpening during a cold spell, I am out of luck. SWMBO doesn't like me to do sharpening with water stones in the house.

jtk

I sure hope that everybody in the aftermarket plane iron business, at this point, realizes they can't ship product that needs hours of work to flatten the face. They pretty much better come with a slight concavity where it's supposed to have it, or already be lapped flat. A bump on the face -- in the box and back to the seller they go. This definitely applies to the better providers -- Hock, L-V, Isles, Lake Erie, etc. I do think I recall hearing that Hock has recommended the "Ruler Trick" in the past on its new irons. That's a nonstarter with me. Not sure if this is still the case with Hock.

[Derek Cohen]

Hmm, don't really know much about the metals other than how to sharpen them. If the V10 or 11 is comparable to the V10 lathe tools, then it could be a step up. With the new fancy metals, they do give edges that take more abuse before needing to be resharpened. This translates to you can do a lot more roughing work before going back to the bench stones. However, with finish/final cuts on my bowls, I still want a fresh edge. I did make one chisel from a M42 high speed steel blank from D Way tools. I haven't really used it a lot yet. I have chatted with him about the possibility of sending up a plane blade and having a laser cut blank made for my planes. I always have to experiment.....

robo hippy

I will preface my comment with a note that says all is conjecture until someone reviews and reports.

I imagine that the manufacturer must have a heat-treating method/plan to deal with its high abrasive-resistance (Philip Marcou used to love D2 plane blades, and said that the secret here was in the heat-treating). Based on my experience, my concern is that V10 may be a chore to sharpen for hand planes users. Definitely hollow grind territory followed by diamond paste! This is a steel that would pose less of an issue for turners as they use a grinder to sharpen. I have had a V10 chisel and gave it away as I just could not get a decent edge.

Edit to add: It occurred to me to add that Henry Eckert planes (Australian) offers PM-10V plane blades. Now I do not know if these are V10 steel or just a name to imitate PM-V11. But they are in use.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Reed Gray]

My experience with the V10, and M42 hss wood lathe tools, is that a CBN wheel is the best option for sharpening them. Translating to flat work tools, I would want diamond lapping plates. I did get diamond plates because I will never have to flatten them, and I du use a lubricant, some times water, some times automotive glass cleaner, which has no ammonia in it, which can interfere with the electrobonding of the diamonds to the plates. Diamond plates now go up to 8000 grit from DMT.

robo hippy

[Rafael Herrera]

Until I get my hands on one of these Magnacut I'm not going to worry about hypothetical flatness issues. In any case, David Charlesworth solved that problem a long time ago. At the price they're being sold, it's pretty unlikely they left flatness of the face of the iron to good luck. From the information provided, it's pretty clear this is a steel with increased wear resistance compared to the typical vintage or current tool steels. The seller even recommends the media to use on these irons. So there, you have the information, you make the decision to get it or not. There's no guru in this case extolling the magical properties of this steel.

Regarding the hardness of the Magnacut irons, 62 Rc is pretty hard but not insanely hard since a higher level may not be easy to sharpen or usable on wood. As stated above, the heat treatment regime used to harden the iron is the key factor in setting the properties of the edge tool. These properties have a range of possibilities and the tool maker decides in which direction to go. From the spec sheet, one can aim for 60 to 63 Rc, the steel has a potential to harden to 65 Rc, but that would likely be unusable for woodworking. Yet again, this is not a dark art, the information is out there for anyone to bother to look at and is no more complicated than reading a cooking recipe.

Regarding the Australian plane maker, Henry Eckert, I remember his irons were discussed in the Australian woodworking forum. Someone asked him and he answered that his irons were made of CPM-V10. He branded them PM-V10 as a play on words related to the Lee Valley PM-V11 name. At least that is what I remember. Here's the thread (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/pm-10v-tool-steel-low-angle-jack-245188), if anyone is interested, it may be useful as a data point in evaluating the use of CPM-V10 on a plane iron. It is also key to understand that the heat treatment regime used by the Henry Eckert irons may not be the same as the one used by DFM Toolworks irons, it is not enough to just state the type of steel used to make comparisons.

Rafael

[Larry Frank]

Rafael makes great points about heat treatment. There is good information about the best way in the documentation for this new grade.

With any grade of these special steels, there are many ways of heat treatment that lead to huge differences in properties. Just giving a type or grade of steel does not give sufficient information to know the properties of a blade. Even giving the hardness does not tell you all the properties as you can heat treat in different ways and get the same hardness.

I am a novice with hand tools but it is entertaining to read threads like this