Good but reasonably priced fret or coping saw

[Bob Cooper]

I’m putting my Christmas list together and I’d like to learn how to cut dovetails this year. So one item I think I need is a decent coping or fret saw. I’m fine with spending money for good tools but I don’t want to waste money given my skill set.

any suggestions

[Brad Chenoweth]

Geez Bob! Money is never wasted on an expensive tool:D

[Richard Line]

I'm sure you've looked at the current thread about the NK saws. I was in your position several years back, I had an old, cheap coping saw that wasn't good for close work (helped along that road by my skills). I bought the 'standard' copying saw from Lee Valley and found it works well. My only (mild) complaint is changing the blade angle involves loosening and tightening a screw with a lot of tension on it. I've also bought the 'standard' fret saw from LV, the 3" clearance one, and I like the way it cuts, but the blade can't be rotated. I've tried twisting the blade to cut at 45 deg.; that works well, but sawing along a line is not as automatic as with a straight blade.

Another option is the trick I read by Swartz for 'tuning' a cheap coping saw. Put 1 or maybe 2 flat washers between the blade frame and the handle. This spacer adds more compression or stiffness to the saw once it is tighten all the way.

[Tom M King]

I own one of the Knewconcepts saws, but get by fine with German jewelers saws. I can get more tension on the blade easier with one of these. I put the handle against my chest, and the end of the saw loop against something immovable, and tighten the blade. I can pluck a much higher note than what the Knewconcepts saw clamps can hold, and the thumbscrews are easy to operate.

I have several sizes of these. The only trouble, and the only reason I have a Knewconcepts jewelers saw is because the blade orientation is adjustable, whereas with the German ones you only get one way. The German one is my preference for cutting straight ahead. I cut on the push stroke most of the time.

Another advantage of the German ones is you can adjust the frame to use broken blades.

https://www.esslinger.com/jewelers-saw-frame-german-style-adjustable-3-depth/

I also get by fine with an Olsen, and a Disston coping saw, and I cut to the line. I usually take several out of the box so I don't have to switch blade orientation in the middle of a job. In this picture, there is a Knewconcepts, a German jewelers saw, and the two coping saws. They all come out of the box when I have molding to cope.

I chisel dovetail sockets.

[Tom Trees]

Have I seen someone tension a cheap saw with a cheap turnbuckle before...
was it a bit of a good idea which didn't really work so well ?

[James Pallas]

I have 3 coping saws 2 fives and a six and 2 fret saws a three and a giant 12. I keep one coping saw loaded push and one pull and one left whatever it was used last. One is an Olson, one is an old craftsman the other is not marked. Good blades are important. I use the three fret saw the most. If it’s not deep enough I just turn around and cut from the other direction. If I need more depth I break out the monster one. I usually chop dovetails with the board flat. Two cuts to the base line flip (if it’s thru) two cuts and than split the rest. To me it’s an extra step to cope. I admit that I don’t do those tiny pins. I’ll occasionally do an eighth because I have a chisel.
Jim

[Bob Cooper]

So what’s the main difference between a coping saw and a fret saw in this application. Do I just need to get a couple inexpensive standard LV coping saws though the jewelers saw — still cheap — looks nice. I’m not seeing the big value I’m a 150+ saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Bob, while I am the greatest supporter of the KC fretsaw, no one needs to be starting out with one. In the same way that one does not need the best dovetail saw or best chisels. We all learn the rudiments first with inexpensive tools. They all work. They can all do a good job. Eventually, we trade up to better tools - better in the sense of quality and control. They make it easier, but you likely would not appreciate this if you started out with them.

The Swiss and German jeweller saws are good fretsaws. I used one for many years. Rob Cosman swears by his, and he twists the blade to cut at 45 degrees. I used to do this as well. The KC angles the blade for you. Once you have mastered dovetailing, get one.

The other point is that fretsawing the waste is just one way of removing it. Another is chiselling it out.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[fritz eng]

Just a heads up....ordered what was advertised as a fret saw by Olsen from Home Depot. What I received TWICE was a ZONA brand. Classic example of bait and switch.

[Jim Koepke]

with German jewelers saws. I can get more tension on the blade easier with one of these. I put the handle against my chest, and the end of the saw loop against something immovable, and tighten the blade. I can pluck a much higher note than what the Knewconcepts saw clamps can hold, and the thumbscrews are easy to operate.

This may works well until trying to do some decorative piercing work with the blade going through the work while trying to tighten the blade.

The inexpensive saws are good for learning. One thing you will learn is to get the blade highly tensioned.

These were my first fret saws:

489227

The one on the left has no tension adjustment other than pressing the back into position and tightening the wing bolt.

The second from the left is a Great Neck. The back has an adjuster and there is another at the top of the frame. This one allows the blade to be set at any angle.

The last two are both from Germany and have blade tension adjusters at the top of the frame.

My problem with all of these was blades breaking or slipping out of the holding jaws. The blade breaking may have been due to my inexperience using these.

I may have sold the Great Neck. interesting concept but totally awkward in use. The others are still used at times when an odd blade, like a spiral cut is desired.

After a decade of using these a Knew Concepts saw, with the 45º stops, was purchased. This was before they came out with one that turns a full 180º. It has been tempting me, but it is not needed or desired as much as some other items at this time.

Thoughts of changing the handle have crossed my mind, but it hasn't yet been done.

jtk

[Tom M King]

On those adjustable jewelers saws, I don't use the adjustable back to tension the blade, but only to set the length for whatever blade you're using. That Great Neck is an interesting looking one. I don't remember the last blade I broke with one of them.

[Bob Cooper]

Thanks. This definitely feels like one of those “just get something reasonable and develop some skill asap and then you’ll appreciate something nicer”. It’s not a case of buying a mid range vs high end tool makes a huge difference early on

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks. This definitely feels like one of those “just get something reasonable and develop some skill asap and then you’ll appreciate something nicer”. It’s not a case of buying a mid range vs high end tool makes a huge difference early on

You may be able to find a local lapidary (rock shop), hobby shop or jewelry supply carrying fret saws.

Amazon has them starting at ~$15.

jtk

[chris carter]

Call me crazy, but I’ve always just used a $7 Craftsman coping saw. It works and I honestly can’t imagine how much of an improvement I’d get from some higher end saw. It can do a 360 degree turn in one spot and I can cut out waste very close to the baseline in one pass. I’ve never used a fret saw so maybe I just don’t know what I’m missing. But when I see people use those, they cut awful slow and they complain that they go through blades quickly. Maybe if I were making those 1/16th inch pins then I’d fall in love with a fret saw, but I’ve never been tempted to make those kinds of pins. On the flip side, if I have big dovetails I used my 1/8th turning saw. It can’t turn around and around in one single spot so I have to cut out the waste in two swipes. The coping saw would work fine for those bigger dovetails, but the turning saw is just plain fun to use and it cuts through would super-fast.

[Jim Koepke]

I’ve always just used a $7 Craftsman coping saw.

That must be an old price. Currently the Sears site doesn't show a Craftsman coping saw. The inexpensive saws at Home Depot are almost twice the price.

Lowes shows an Irwin Marples branded coping saw with one blade for ~$10.

jtk

[Andrew Alexander]

For years (before boutique saws) the goto coping saw was an Olson. Buy some decent Pegas 18 TPI skip toothblades and that would be a good and inexpensive start. Both items can be had from Amazon for about $20 bucks.

[steven c newman]

Of the 4 coping saws I have in the shop..the MOST I have ever paid for any of them...$1.....was getting to the point that every sale seemed to one or two.....

Disston/HK Porter No. 10B is a fairly good saw ( have 1 of them) and there was/is a Millers Falls No. 42 version, and an Atkins No. 50 ....I'd have to pull inventory to find out..

The area I do not go keep on...is the blades...buying the best I can find.....usually Olson ones...

Had a Miller Falls Fret saw for a while...wound up giving it away.....same with the extra deep framed CRAFTSMAN ....was too hard to control.

Film later...( BTW..I simply use a chisel to chop out the waste...saves time..)

4 saws..
489253
Details...HK PORTER? Disston No. 10B, and the Craftsman...
489254
And the other 2...
489255
The Atkins No. 50..and the Millers Falls....Prefer to use the Millers Falls one, at the moment...

[Rob Young]

I’m putting my Christmas list together and I’d like to learn how to cut dovetails this year. So one item I think I need is a decent coping or fret saw. I’m fine with spending money for good tools but I don’t want to waste money given my skill set.

any suggestions

I had a good hardwarestore brand for a long time. Good tension, etc. Then dropped it onto a concrete floor and broke the threaded portion sticking out of the handle.

I had built a turning saw using the Grammercy (Tools for Working Wood) kit and use it too but the blades aren't as readily available as Pegus branded 6" pinned blades. So decided to get a KC coping saw and very much like it.

But, had I looked around a bit more I may have gone this route:
https://taytools.com/collections/tools-saws-coping-fret-saws/products/coping-saw-kits-components

[Ben Ellenberger]

I Have the $15 one from Tools for Working Wood. I do t use it all that often, but it works great for me. As others have said, put decent blades in it.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Finally got back in the shop to do some quick work and take photos; I don’t see a need for an expensive coping/fret saw, but perhaps I’m missing something.

Here’s my fret saw (no maker’s mark to be found) with an Olson PGT 8 TPI skip reverse tooth blade:

489588

Here’s a dovetail in pine after sawing out the waste (straight off the dovetail saw and fret saw, no final paring yet). Outside:
489589

. . . and inside:
489590

Sorry for the rotated photos.

I’m happy with my fret saw as-is. Can anyone explain how an expensive fret saw would improve my results?

[Mel Fulks]

Those have a good spring to them . I consider them more of a “jewelers” saw , but now they might be sold for both metal and wood.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Here’s another, just to check consistency.
489591
489592
Seems like a good fret saw to me. Also, this is with the blade twisted ~45 degrees (which might be visible in my fret saw photo).

[Thomas Crawford]

My 2 cents here:

I recently bought whatever was the slight upgrade Irwin brand from Lowes. I used it to cope pine baseboards, probably 25-30 pieces. It worked fine, no complaints.

What you are sawing is great for practice sawing to a line. But most dovetails are small and maybe that's where you will see some benefits of the more expensive saws. More twisting, maybe you start pushing too hard in a hardwood, etc. Even my KN fret saw with an Olsen blade has issues if my technique is off. I tend to put too much force on it and it yanks the blade out.

I vastly prefer to chop the waste out with a chisel. Its just personal preference. If that is where you lean then the quality of the coping saw matters less because you pretty much just need to cut straight lines.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Fair observation. Challenge accepted, Thomas. How about skinny pins in hard maple?

(extra layout lines from changing my mind and making them narrower)
489597489596
Edit: how narrow? Looks like a little under 1/16 inch at the narrowest. I don’t have a chisel that narrow.
489598

Edit 2: Oops: that's skinny tails as shown, not skinny pins. That's what I get for typically cutting tails first and trying to turn things around in a hurry without thinking it through. Doesn't undermine the point, though.

[Thomas Crawford]

There you go! - skinnier than I cut them

[Michael Bulatowicz]

There you go! - skinnier than I cut them

Me, too. Aside from this test in scrap, I don't cut them narrower than my narrowest chisel (3mm nominal, a little under 1/8 inch). Typically not even that narrow.

[Jim Koepke]

Can anyone explain how an expensive fret saw would improve my results?

Not sure about your results, but it has improved mine. The ability to turn the blade without having to twist it with pliers is a big help.

When doing complex cutting (pierced work) it is easier to tension the blade through a piece of wood.

I have a few fret saws besides the Knew Concepts Saw and the KC has a deeper throat and just works better for me. That and there seems to be a lot less breaking of blades.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Of course all of this is opinion. Coping or fret sawing is one of the 80% technique 20% tool things. If. You have good technique than an excellent tool is going help. An excellent tool still requires good technique. Even with a great tool you will still break blades and go off line. You can, however, learn great technique with a tool that is not the absolute best. Not a junk tool just a good tool.
Jim

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Fair points, all, Jim. If your Knew Concepts fret saw has improved your results and you're happy with the tool, by all means please continue to enjoy it. Additional points in favor of a Knew Concepts saw might be a desire to support the maker, a decision based on location of manufacture, or perhaps aesthetics. I'm sure there are others.

I'll agree that twisting the blade with pliers is inconvenient and locks one into a particular blade orientation or risk breakage, as is the need to insert the blade bowed so that it mostly straightens as the frame itself bows under tension (which may be visible in the photo of my fret saw). Breakage hasn't been much of a problem for me. I usually dull blades before they break; this may be related to the low tooth count blades I prefer.

My point was to add my voice and some pictures in support of the assertion that the OP doesn't need to spend a lot of money to get reasonable precision from a fret saw.

Could I follow a line better with a KC fret saw, or turn a sharper corner? Probably not. I'm confident that my skill is the limiting factor and not the saw itself or the blade.

Maybe once I develop more skill with the fret saw I'd be able to squeeze more precision out of a KC saw than an inexpensive one.

[Thomas Wilson]

Michael, that is some accurate sawing. I have never come anywhere near as close to the baseline as you do.

I have lots of nice tools. I really don’t “need” anything more to build furniture. I buy stuff just to see how it works, support the maker, or ‘cause it is shiny. There is a budget item for fun money that I can spend on tools with no justification or need. It hasn’t always been this way. I remember well Janicewhokeepsmehumble saying, “I hope someday you will build something without having to buy a tool.” We are in a different place today and I am well past that.

About the Knew Concepts saw specifically, honestly, it is the blade that cuts and that is the main factor not the frame. I coped a couple of houses worth of trim with a coping saw that was given to me for maybe my 10th birthday. What the Knew Concepts saw design is better for is the tensioning and swivel. I can get higher tension and that helps. I can change the angle quickly. It is better. But it is not necessary.

[Jim Koepke]

the need to insert the blade bowed so that it mostly straightens as the frame itself bows under tension (which may be visible in the photo of my fret saw).

This is another good point. The back of my less expensive saws is not as rigid as the back of the KC saw. It may be the non-rigid tendency of the backs or the difficulty of getting as high of tension on my one saw that causes me to break blades.

My smaller saw is preferred over the two German saws since it is lighter and less clumsy to use. It doesn't have the blade tensioning screw like the German saws.

jtk

[James Pallas]

I struggled breaking blades at first, years ago. Once you learn not to turn the saw unless you are on a cutting stroke either pushing or pulling blade breakage goes away for the most part. Light pressure and turning on the cutting stroke with a fret saw will come very close to a 90* corner. The only limiting factor is the height of the blade. I cut on push or pull. You need to be able to cut push if working with finished face close to the line or on it so you don’t make chips in the finish. It also helps greatly to be able to cut with either hand so you can approach from either side. Don’t rush yourself, work at your speed of accuracy.
Jim

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Thanks for the kind words and the further thoughts, Thomas. Doubtless, there are plenty of people with better fret saw skills than mine.

I'll admit that I'm curious about the Knew Concepts saws--and there are things to like about the design and the location of manufacture. Maybe someday I'll get to try one and decide I like it enough to purchase one.

[Rob Luter]

Finally got back in the shop to do some quick work and take photos; I don’t see a need for an expensive coping/fret saw, but perhaps I’m missing something.

Here’s my fret saw (no maker’s mark to be found) with an Olson PGT 8 TPI skip reverse tooth blade:

489588

Here’s a dovetail in pine after sawing out the waste (straight off the dovetail saw and fret saw, no final paring yet). Outside:
489589

. . . and inside:
489590

Sorry for the rotated photos.

I’m happy with my fret saw as-is. Can anyone explain how an expensive fret saw would improve my results?

I used to have a couple of these, both Olson. I couldn't get enough tension in the blade to control the cut in anything but very thin, very soft wood. They were otherwise very nice little saws.

[Brad Roof]

I agree with this sentiment. I bought the same fret saw and it works and cost less than 20 dollars. If you have a habit restore near you stop by...they usually have a box full of old coping saws and buy a few of them....they were usually a dollar or less....get a few washers and take up some of the slack and put a good blade on it and you will be able to accomplish the task at hand. I have tried the KC saws at the shows and they are nice....but for a hobby woodworker, it's a tough sell in my opinion