Oliver 166 jointer - upgrade to helical or replace machine?

[Jonathan Jung]

I have a 1942 Oliver 166-CD 16" jointer. Runs and performs wonderfully. It just looks the part of being a WWII unrestored relic. I've gone over the whole thing, cleaned everything up, removed and dialed the beds in, pulled the motor apart, replaced bearings, etc. It's running the original 440v motor. All this said, I hate straight knives and have been in queue for a custom helical insert head from Hermance. I don't want to debate what kind of head to get. The question I do have is this:

Do I spend ~$2,500 for a helical head

or

put that money towards a new machine (at $13,000+ for a SCM / similar)?

The only additional feature I think I'd like on a jointer would be a brake. Either an automatic motor brake or a very effective emergency brake. The Oliver has a little hand brake but it doesn't slow the head fast enough to be of much use in an emergency.

I think I already know the answer to my question...if spending an additional $10,500+ for a new machine will really only get me a brake, then keep the Oliver. That's a lot of cash for only one feature. I do like using the Oliver, other than the massive in-the-way porkchop guard. It's a piece of history, joints well, and is really easy to work on. Plus, I know it in-and-out. These points are worth something. But I thought I'd throw this out there to see if anyone has anything else I've missed.

How it sits now:

489096

Where I found it, at a boat yard in Seattle:

489097

[Mel Fulks]

I would not . Buy buy some T-1 or M-2 knives from a dealer who will send ones with the etched marks on them. Not just an invoice saying
what they are .

[Bill Dufour]

Run it with a VFD and you get power brakes.
Bill D

[Patrick Kane]

The history is very cool on that machine, i like the before photo. Going off recent memory, you are maybe looking at $4,500+/- for an Oliver 166 in good shape. I assume yours is in great shape, because you just redid the motor and bearings. $4,500+$2,500 would get you a <20 year old euro machine with tersa head etc. I cant tell you if that machine will be better than an Oliver 166, because i havent used an oliver jointer before. I know guys love their old arn, and i had/have my fair share, but I do think newer is better in most cases. Over the years, some things became lighter, but the ergonomics, design, and safety features are almost universally improved on mid/high manufactures. For a period of time, i owned a 1970s Martin T75, Martin T17, and 2005 Felder KF700. The Martins were so much more robust in every conceivable way than the Felder, but given the choice id rather use the Felder. It's a lighter built saw, but the ergonomics are much nicer, the xroll table was nicer, and the outrigger/crosscut fence was a much better system than the vintage Martins. Id like to pick up another Martin T17 in the future, but that will hopefully be beside a much more contemporary Martin : )

A jointer is a different animal, because its simpler. It's just two tables, a fence, and a cutterhead. It sounds like you only have an issue with one of those items. A new machine will get you a different/better guard, potentially a better fence system, better dust collection, probably a quieter machine, more efficient cutterhead, and a brand spanking new machine with spotless tables etc. Those are all relatively minor upgrades--to me-- for the extra $6,000. If its performing well for you currently, then i might just sit back and keep an eye on markets over the next few years. I think back to the Woodweb listings 3-4 years ago with multiple T54's in the $12,000 range. If that kind of opportunity presented itself to me again, i would sell my vintage machine for what i can and spend the cash to upgrade to the Martin. Ask Albert for his opinion once he receives his new 20" SCM. Candidly, i havent operated a 16-20" machine newer than 2002.

[Jonathan Jung]

Will the 5hp (6.5amps at 440v) motor be enough for a helical head?

A VFD would make me nervous about overheating the old winding insulation. It's a good thought though, I'll have to run it by my industrial electrician. The head is so heavy that I wonder how effective a brake could be anyway.

The dust collection on it is reasonable, and can easily be made better by covering some gaps. It runs really quiet and smooth actually, being direct drive. The fence is rock solid and I never move it out of 90deg. It's really just the guard and the brake I think.

[Greg Quenneville]

How is the dust collection on the Oliver? If it works with your ducting then my bias would be to keep it, modify for insert cutters or Tersa and do something about the guard. I replaced the porkchop on my combination machine with a Jet euro guard which looks just like a Felder part.

I think jointers are one of those machines that add to the cast iron fetish. I like running heavier machines than welded-up ones. It could be a placebo effect, but they just seem smoother and more capable.

[Steve Jenkins]

I have a 1949 Oliver166. The cutter head and motor shaft are one solid piece. Don’t know how you could replace just the cutter head. I use Dispozablade knives in mine. They are straight knives but are indexed so changing them is a snap plus the steel is much better.

[Patrick Kane]

My noise comment was more geared towards the higher knife projection of those older cutterheads and the solid infeed/outfeed table lips.

I imagine 5hp is just fine for 16”. My 19.75” jointer is 5.5hp, and it’s fine. I just face jointed a few 8/4 glue ups that were 17-18” wide and it was no problem for the machine. I only took a 1/16” cut trying to be conservative on finished material thickness. If you bog it down, that means you are taking an obnoxious cut or your knives are dull.

[Bradley Gray]

Why do you hate straight knives?

[Andrew Hughes]

Have you ever faced wood on a helical head? I have and found out I didn’t like the extra hand pressure it takes to take a pass. A very small one.
I can understand your frustration if your using recycled wood. Or something exotic that has mineral streaks.
For ordinary common domestic woods I get a long time between knife changes on my 166.
Maybe you need some pointers?

[Mel Fulks]

Thanks, Andrew . I had not heard that ,and it should have been noticed and reported when that stuff started.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just my opinion, I've wanted a 166 for as long as I've know what they are. I'd pay well for one like yours, if it happened to be for sale somewhere within my area. However, I would not pay one penny more for one with an aftermarket head. It's like a car that someone customizes. Their vision is appealing to them, but by doing so, they actually usually hurt the value of the machine. As a 166 is a desirable machine, I'd definitely not mess with one in good condition. Just sell it to someone like me and buy what you actually want.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I don't really see the purpose of a brake. If someone gets injured (which we hope they won't) on a jointer the damage will happen in a split second, and it will then be too late to benefit from stopping the head quickly. I suppose it is safer to have it spinning for less time after you're done using it, but with a guard that shouldn't make much difference either, I imagine. I kind of wanted a bandsaw with a brake so that I didn't have to wait as long to move things between cuts, but on a jointer that wouldn't seem to me to be a factor.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have a 1940 Oliver 166 BD (12”) with a Terminus (like Tersa) indexed cutterhead. The head was already in the machine when I bought it and I can change knives in about 5 min and don’t have to touch the beds or think. Options for varying grades of HSS or carbide. No cheaper to buy outright than a helical I don’t think, but my personal preference on a jointer compared to helical but I have never run a Hermance so not sure I can really say.

My motor is 5 hp and I run it with a VFD set to decelerate from full speed to a stop in 7 seconds. Otherwise the head would take 5 minutes to spin down. It’s sort of about safety but more about convenience / speed / not having to wait for the head to spin down unrestricted. 7 seconds is pretty convenient for me. The head is nearly 5” in diameter fyi

Not sure upgrading to a ~$13k new machine is the best ROI coming from a well tuned 166 but we probably have different businesses. I would never buy a brand new jointer, personally and would only upgrade if I lucked into a local deal on a larger Tersa style head machine that was somewhere between SCMI and Martin. Otherwise I’d keep trucking with the Oliver as it’s a top tier jointer, IMO.

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve used old jointers with brakes. I think the main use was to get a guy out who never learned how to tuck in a shirt -tail.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't really see the purpose of a brake. If someone gets injured (which we hope they won't) on a jointer the damage will happen in a split second, and it will then be too late to benefit from stopping the head quickly. I suppose it is safer to have it spinning for less time after you're done using it, but with a guard that shouldn't make much difference either, I imagine. I kind of wanted a bandsaw with a brake so that I didn't have to wait as long to move things between cuts, but on a jointer that wouldn't seem to me to be a factor.

I don't have a 166, so I'm stuck with a 16" Felder, poor me, but it of course has an electronic brake. Honestly I agree with you, it's interesting to see that cutter stop so fast, but it's not really a big deal with the jointer. The Felder slider stops quicker though, and I do love that. Awesome for repositioning quickly and clearing off cuts safely. Completely different workflow than a jointer though.

[Bill Dufour]

If the VFD is set to only run at 60Hz the motor is fine. The only possible problem is of you run it above 60 HZ. The oft quoted acceleration/decleration time is 3 seconds or longer for the average machine with no big spinning mass. I would go longer on a heavy jointer head at high rpms. 5-10 seconds seems good.
Bill D

[Andrew Hughes]

My head takes 5 mins + to stop spinning but it does vary with weather 100+degrees with full-size knives it will take almost 6 mins. I like it because sometimes I switching back and forth between the bandsaw and the jointer. It’s a smaller inrush when the head is turning.
I did my homework on jointers before I restored mine.
Oliver’s Head has a 36 degree hook angle so get my t1 knives sharpened at 42 degrees. 12 degrees clearance between the heel of the knife and the wood is very good For most domestic woods that I use.
The insert heads have the carbide insert with a 30 degree facebevel and small radius and I think some like a 6 degree tilt.
The face bevel acts like a chip breaker it’s scooping and scraping at the same time. Something only carbide could deal with.
I have a bryd head in my planer just to be clear I’m not against them completely. Just the hand fed machine the “Hand planer and jointer”.

[joe maday]

If the long spin down time is the worry..why not have piece of scrap wood next to the jointer and after turning off the machine you joint it's edge to slow/stop the head from spining?

[al ladd]

I don't understand how anyone who's working with wood to make a living in a small shop can contemplate spending that kind of money just to get the sort of features (a brake on a jointer?) being talked about. if you frequently work with figured wood any helical head will transform your abilities and save hours and hours of knife sharpening and changes.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I don't understand how anyone who's working with wood to make a living in a small shop can contemplate spending that kind of money just to get the sort of features (a brake on a jointer?) being talked about. if you frequently work with figured wood any helical head will transform your abilities and save hours and hours of knife sharpening and changes.

I'll bet that there are not many making a living with woodworking who seek out highly figured lumber for their products. That is the enviable realm of the serious amatuer who has other motivations than profit. As a pro, I could maybe justify a used 6" import jointer in my shop as it's never used for anything but edges, and rarely at that. If I'm using a jointer for a project, I've probably screwed up a design and am now losing money on that step. I'm lucky to have a felder from the hobbyist period before I had to start using my tools for a living but I would never even try to justify it on a pro budget.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would stick with the Oliver. The history and old iron mystique are nice, but the main thing is you know the beds and fence are true and on a new one you will be stuck with what you get. Nothing is more important on a jointer than flat surfaces. A new machine won't run any smoother or give you better results than the one you have with a head upgrade. I am fine with straight (carbide) knives, no brake and the porkchop guard on my 16" machine, and I have never felt 3hp was insufficient.

The most convenient guard I have used is the modified porkchop style with a wood/leather tambour section that folds down the side of the jointer as it opens up. I believe they are available - someone here (Brian Holcombe ?) posted about ordering one within the last year or so.

[Patrick Kane]

My VFD is also set to 7-8 seconds to stop my jointer cutterhead. I found it to be adequate and safe. Honestly, 5 minutes is long enough for it to slip your mind and potentially do something dumb. I can see a reason for wanting it to come to a stop in under 30 seconds. If i dont manually brake my bandsaw, it will go for minutes as well, and it is very silent with ear protection on. It sets the stage for an accident with multiple people in the same shop.

I see plenty of value in a pro getting the machine he wants. Sometimes it's not all about the most efficient use of every dollar. If it makes you happier to be in the same space, safer, 0.5% more efficient at the work you do, and you just like looking at it, then that should be enough. Also, if the professional isnt going to splurge on machines, then who should? The Hobbyist that will use it to 1/10th its capabilities? Hes making money with the machines, he should spend a lot more on tools than i do. I never understood the shops in my area that scrape by with the absolute bare minimum of tooling. Im not advocating for every shop to immediately go to a $500k CNC. In the same breath, i question the cabinet shops running a 40 year old pm66, 6" jointer, and light duty grizzly/delta/powermatic shapers. Ive personally seen plenty of those businesses locally, and i think there is a better way of working. It might take years of managing finances and budgeting to get there, but it will be better off in the long run. The difference between what the OP has and what he wants is $5000+/-. In the scope of his remaining 20-40 year career, is that much of anything? Thats the equivalent of making and selling 6-7 large end grain cutting boards for the next 5 holiday seasons.

My last example, and then ill shut it. I tossed and turned on spend multiple thousands on a used Felder sliding saw 5-7 years ago. I ended up buying it, and the very first project i used it on was this massive end grain walnut island commission. 5" thick and maybe 30-36" by 60". It was a $2,000+ commission, and that saw made the process 10x better. The crosscuts for the final end grain glueup were stupid easy with the rip fence as a bump stop and the sliding table. More importantly, the end grain strips were dead nuts on identical to one another. Over the course of 30-40 repetitive crosscuts out of a blank, it's easy for things to start to skew and your glueup is off by 1/16"+/-. Long story short, it made my life easier(less wear and tear than schlepping a huge 8/4 blank onto and over a unisaw) and my work was better for it. I would have had more profit for the year had i kept my unisaw and not bought the Felder.

[Jared Sankovich]

Is hermance (or whoever took over after they sold the head business) back to finally building heads?

I prefer straight knives on my jointer, so if I ever upgraded a tersa would be it.

[Mark Gibney]

Thanks for that perspective Patrick.

I put a Hermance head into my EMA 16" jointer, and I'm very happy with it.
Setting the straight knives on the older head was difficult, and I would avoid it, ending up with dull knives.

I never contemplated buying a completely new machine and selling the EMA, so I cannot speak to the OP's question other than to say in hindsight that if I was making the decision now I would do as I did, and keep the machine I have.
I've put a lot of work into restoring it and I feel a bond with it, when I look at it I get that dopamine hit of knowing the machine "in and out" as Jonathan says, and that I'm responsible for how well it works.

[Phillip Mitchell]

The practical difference between a well tuned Oliver 166 + ($400) VFD (for braking) + ($3,000) whatever aftermarket cutterhead you like -VS- a brand new SCMI that also has a brake and nice cutterhead (~$13,000) is really not much in my opinion. Not really the same comparison as a unisaw and sled vs a felder sliding table saw or cabinet shops who choose to run older, less industrial equipment. The 166 is just as good at jointing and flattening boards as anything new, IMO. Jointers are not machines that really benefit from bells and whistles beyond flat tables, good fence and quality cutterhead. The cutterhead and braking variables are “fixable”.

Businesses get by with older or “lesser” equipment because it probably does the job at hand just fine for them and upgrading affects the bottom line and sometimes owners might want to consider going on vacation/taking time off instead of having shinier machines around? I know many cabinet shops that barely even use a jointer (or don’t) and only deal with S4S material and that seems to suit them fine. Not the type work that I do in my small custom business and I’m thankful for a nice 12” jointer that sees a lot of use close to capacity.

We obviously all have different opinions / perspectives and Jonathan opened the box by asking the question looking for other feedback. From a business POV I have a hard time seeing the value and ROI on a brand new $13k + jointer when you have a top tier machine currently that you know to be good, also know mechanically and can upgrade for an additional ~25% of the cost of a new machine to essentially equal that new machine in function. Selling the Oliver and going for new would probably put you down ~ $10k after deducting the sale of the 166.

If you just want to look at a new machine, then that’s kind of another thing and seems more of a personal move as opposed to a business decision. Just my opinions, but I have approached this from both the hobby / tool acquisition disorder side as well as the professional / business side.

[Bob Falk]

I’ve used old jointers with brakes. I think the main use was to get a guy out who never learned how to tuck in a shirt -tail.


Or, perhaps for multiworker shops to prevent spinning blades in unattended machines?