Fritz & Franz Jig, dimensions?

[Michael Drew]

Looking for some basic input with respect to the physical dimensions folks who use these jigs prefer. I have not even seen one in person, let alone use one - but I can already see why they are so popular amount the slider saw users. I've used my K3 Winner less than an hour and am now putting a materials list together to build myself a F/F jig. Out of all the designs I've seen so far, I really like the ones with a sacrificial wood fence that can be replaced. I also want flip stops. I also think having the capability to secure it to the slider, away from either front or rear fence would be handy. The Extreme Woodworker's revised jig on YouTube is what I'm going for, at least in general.

I'm wondering just how large I should make this thing? Is 20" in length adequate for most uses? Seems to me there comes a point in which it would be better just use the fence, and forgo the jig, and I'm thinking 20" might be that point? Also, just how high should the fence be? I see designs that range from .75" to 3". I'm leaning towards a fence about 2" in height. That choice becomes a bit less trivial when I start looking at flip stop sizes, and trying to match them with the various types and sizes of extruded aluminum, or T-tracks.

Any pics or general thoughts / advice would be appreciated. Due to crazy expensive (and also restrictive) shipping options to my home, I'll lean on Amazon, so that's where I've been surfing, trying to find parts and pieces to make this thing.

[Jim Becker]

There's no one good answer here and one could conceivable have multiples that handle different widths of material or have different "beefiness" as needed. I think mine is about a foot or so wide and I use it for both little things and for parallel ripping. Do some quick and dirty versions of different sizes to see what works best for you before you commit to any special hardware, etc.

[Derek Cohen]

How long is your wagon? At which end is the crosscut fence? Longer is more stable, but you need to have the space for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Parks]

Before getting all complicated about it I would make it using two bits of wood/MDF or whatever scrap you have laying around and use it for a while to see what you need. A search for F&F jigs in this forum will show you a lot of variety and I began using one as soon as it became known here many years ago. Users began to add flip stops and tracks complicating the whole thing because they don't use the rip fence head to measure the cut as shown in the pic below. Note the short fence that is used as the bump stop for measurement, I rarely use the full length rip fence instead ripping on the sliding table and narrow rips are held using the F&F jig. The jig only needs to be as wide or a bit wider than the table and some sandpaper glued to the grip surface and by making it a bit bigger on the blade side and cutting it off this gives a zero point to line up pencil marks without measuring anything at all.


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[Michael Drew]

I did search this site to get ideas. Surprisingly spars amount of detailed info.

Derek, the wagon is roughly 20" X 30". I have the 48X79 K3 Slider.

I think that I am going to make a version of this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OokHlPj4vqQ&t=435s

I also reached out to David Bedrosian (after seeing his jig on one of Ramon Valdez's videos), and I'd just buy one of his, but it's more than am willing to spend on something I can make without too much effort.

I tend to go over board on my shop tools and furniture. Figure I'd rather make something nice, something I'll take care of and use for years - rather than go the quick and easy way. This is just a hobby, so it's not like I'm under pressure to build stuff on the clock.

[Bryan Hall]

I'll also throw another vote at making a few cheap and quick mockups to start. I'm on probably my 3rd or 4th variation now and keep coming up with small things I'd like to change (different style handles, safety features, tool tray, dust collector remote slot, it just goes on...).

In my shop, it's most common for me to use the primary fence and the push side of my F&F jig. When cutting small pieces or doing small thin rips, I use the full set. As such, my set is 12" wide. I wasn't thinking about it at first when I made it, but after the fact I've found that having my F&F matched to the size of my jointer has worked out quite well for squaring stock.

[Derek Cohen]

Michael, the reason for asking the length of the wagon (which is actually the slider - perhaps we call it by different names) is to get an idea of what you have.

My K3 is a 49x49, which means that the crosscut fence is at the start of the wagon, and I needed to re-invent the F&F. Mine works in reverse, holding work pieces against the start of the wagon. You have enough space to work against the far end, and have space over. Doing so, I would make the push block longer to create stability. Add a twist lock to it as well.

Here is a link to an article on my website how I designed mine. The first example is one for a wagon like yours. It looks good for you.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/ReversedFritzFranzJigMk2_html_m22512a76.jpg

The remainder of the article may give you some ideas.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/ReversedFritzFranzJigMk2.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Michael Drew]

Thanks Derek. I do have a couple incra miter gauges that I no longer need......

Here is my machine.

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[Lisa Starr]

Throw a quick and dirty one together first. Mine is about 16" wide and does have a sacrificial face on the rear half (don't know if that's Fritz or Franz). My "front" half just sits against the crosscut fence. If my fence happens to be off the saw, I just clamp it in place. Someday I'll probably get around to a V2.0 but to know what you want, use a quickie for a bit.

[Chris Parks]

Bryan, I can't think of one good reason to add flip stops, tracks, etc to an F&F jig and that is talking from experience of using it since about 2013. I did what you propose and made one using Incra track and flip stops and I have never used it to this day. The saw has a built in measuring system already and the end of the F&F jig is zero to the blade. I don't even put a handle on the ones I have made and see no need for one but then I never use clamps to hold the wood being cut. If it was a long panel saw I might use clamps but I use one of those in a commercial workshop and there is not a clamp in the workshop so no clamps there eighter. In short I fail to see why you need more than a basic F&F jig as it was originally meant to be and that was a safety device for sliding table saws.

[Michael Drew]

I was thinking stops might be useful when making tapered rips, no?

[Chris Parks]

Not in my experience but others might have a different opinion. The original video on YT shows exactly that being done with no stops there either but I can't find the original video at the moment. I know that most don't agree with the minimalist approach as the original video showed and I agree with Lisa, use a basic version and work out what suits you.

The sliding TS is a totally different beast, I can well remember when I first got mine trying to get my head around how to use it to the best advantage for me. Forget everything you ever learned about a cabinet saw and enjoy learning about the sliding TS. The biggest hurdle for most is don't use the rip fence unless you are forced to, do all your ripping on the sliding table and that is where the F&F jig shines as a clamp. I use a short piece of fence extrusion as shown in the pic in my previous post simply because I hardly ever need a full length rip fence, it got in the way for other work and if left hanging out the back of the saw if set properly for ripping I had to walk around it all the time.

[Bryan Hall]

Maybe I’m missing something but if you don’t use the rip fence and don’t have a stop on the F&F portion that you push with, how in the world do you do make measurable and repeatable rip cuts? When I’m ripping a 6’ long board I definitely need something that measures on the back end in order to get quick repeatable cuts.

My main fence only goes down to maybe 4” so I also need stops/tracks to go smaller than that.

[Chris Parks]

Maybe I’m missing something but if you don’t use the rip fence and don’t have a stop on the F&F portion that you push with, how in the world do you do make measurable and repeatable rip cuts? When I’m ripping a 6’ long board I definitely need something that measures on the back end in order to get quick repeatable cuts.

My main fence only goes down to maybe 4” so I also need stops/tracks to go smaller than that.

You can do it a number of ways

Use the rip fence head as I do to set the dimension of the piece needed and the "cut off" is then the piece to be used

Use a parallel fence on the slider I think Derek Cohen does this IIRC www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered Tools and Machinery/index.html (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/index.html)

The zero face of the F&F jig can be used by marking the ends of the wood to be cut and setting those marks to the end of each half of the jig.

This reinforces my comments on having to forget the cabinet saw and learn how to use a slider. Given a few weeks and you will begin to understand why anyone who uses a slider would never willingly go back to a cabinet saw unless a shotgun was pointed at them.:) Steve who sometimes posts in this forum is a good place to start ExtremeWoodworker - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmE9bhjfyhepnFlyXFkWwsQ) and Felder do some project videos as well. Another good resource is Sam Blasco who works for Minimax but has some really clever ideas on sliders in general Sam Blasco - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/c/SamBlasco/videos)

[Bryan Hall]

You can do it a number of ways

Use the rip fence head as I do to set the dimension of the piece needed and the "cut off" is then the piece to be used

Use a parallel fence on the slider I think Derek Cohen does this IIRC www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered Tools and Machinery/index.html (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/index.html)

The zero face of the F&F jig can be used by marking the ends of the wood to be cut and setting those marks to the end of each half of the jig.

Hmm, I don't think you and I are talking about the same thing. A parallel fence isn't available for everyone and is a large object that is doing the same thing as a F&F with stops is doing. The people you referenced have fancy F&F jigs and state that the F&F is ideal with small rips.

[Joe Calhoon]

I agree with Chris. A simple F&F with a grippy edge of some sort is the best for all around use. My originals just use a window gasket on the edge and it works as well as a later version I made with the official F&F green edging. I have never felt the need for stops on these. I do ripping using the rip fence pulled back as a bump stop. I would find doing all my rips off the wagon awkward and time consuming. In the event that I need precision rips, usually on mitered pieces I will use the wagon with a parallel stop on the back and a stop extension on the front for narrow rips. I’m using Macs clamps in some of these pictures but the back part of F&F would grip the workpiece as well.

The grippy edge is the whole principle behind these and I think that extruded fences defeats the purpose.
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[Kevin Jenness]

I'm somewhere in the middle. I use the rip fence much of the time pulled back with the F&F jig but I have stops on the jig elements and use them especially for narrow rips where otherwise I would be using the rip fence conventionally with a push stick. I may slice a number of rips off a wide blank with the rip fence and cut the last with the F&F and stops if the falloff is minimal. I use sticky back sandpaper on the aluminum extrusions which serves well for a gripping surface.

I found myself using the jig more after I made my new version with scales and stops.

[Phillip Mitchell]

This is an interesting thread as I don’t have a F&F on my short stroke slider but have certainly wanted to make some cuts that would have been easier with a something like it in place.

Slight thread drift: Anybody do this with an older slider that had the sliding table not directly next to the blade? My sliding table is cast iron and 7.5” to the left of the blade (see photo.) I suppose that would mean a F&F jig that is wide enough to bear more than halfway in the sliding table section and also extend the 7.5” over to the blade. My sliding table is set 0.3mm above the main table. I’m wondering how well a F&F would grip a piece of stock that’s narrow enough to not bear at all on the sliding table and have to slide over the fixed table while being cut. Obviously I could clamp it down from above as it would be clamping down to the fixed table and prevent sliding...

Thoughts?

[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip,
I made a F&F for my short stroke T17. For sure these work better on a slider that is next to the blade. This one runs in the miter groove and the cross fence needs to be in the outfeed side position to work better rather than how it is shown in the picture. In the event this at some point in retirement might be my only saw I made a Tage Frid style straight line ripper and a push jig for safe narrow rips against the fence.

your saw has a miter grove in the slider and that will work better than on mine.

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[John Kananis]

Joe, I'm unfamiliar with the Tage Frid straight line ripper. Can you elaborate?


Phillip,
I made a F&F for my short stroke T17. For sure these work better on a slider that is next to the blade. This one runs in the miter groove and the cross fence needs to be in the outfeed side position to work better rather than how it is shown in the picture. In the event this at some point in retirement might be my only saw I made a Tage Frid style straight line ripper and a push jig for safe narrow rips against the fence.

your saw has a miter grove in the slider and that will work better than on mine.

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[Kevin Jenness]

It's shown in Joe's 3d and 4th pics. An 8"-12" wide by 8'-10' long platform keyed to the miter gauge groove that has a forward stop with a screw poking through to engage with the blank. I got a lot of mileage out of mine before I got a long (8'6") stroke slider. It's not as accurate as a slider wagon but it will get a crooked piece within one light jointer pass of straight.

[Michael Drew]

I appreciate the conversation and sage advice from more experienced users of these machines. I have not spent much time operating my K3, but I already know that it is a game changer. I will have to knock it for what I think is a bizarre design error, and that's the on/off button location. It's positioned where I would kinda expect it to be if it were a traditional cabinet saw. It's awkward to start the saw when I'm to the left side of the slider/wagon. Puts my head in the line of fire if I reach for the button.

I think I'm going to just order some T-tracks, extruded aluminum pieces and a couple Veritas flip stops from Lee Valley that I really like. I can then play around with this stuff and figure out what configuration works best for me. I seem to always have a need for these jig parts, so I'm sure what I don't use for the F&F jig will get used for something, eventually.

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[John Kananis]

It's shown in Joe's 3d and 4th pics. An 8"-12" wide by 8'-10' long platform keyed to the miter gauge groove that has a forward stop with a screw poking through to engage with the blank. I got a lot of mileage out of mine before I got a long (8'6") stroke slider. It's not as accurate as a slider wagon but it will get a crooked piece within one light jointer pass of straight.

Thanks Kevin, I'm assuming you need to remove the outfeed table or route a miter slot all the way through it?

[Greg Quenneville]

Michael the Felder machines typically have the function selector (if installed) and the switches close to the electrical compartment, not where they make good sense from an operating perspective.

If you join the Felder discussion group in the files section there are plans to make a remote switch box with a coil cord that you can clip to your slider’s accessory rail. I think it even has all the McMaster part numbers.

Greg

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks Kevin, I'm assuming you need to remove the outfeed table or route a miter slot all the way through it?

Yes - I had a wooden outfeed with miter slots running through.

[Joe Calhoon]

John, Kevin describes it perfectly. I used one of these for years on a Unisaw. I had routed grooves in the outfeed table. That worked for sleds also.

[John Kananis]

Good info, guys - thanks!

[Michael Drew]

Michael the Felder machines typically have the function selector (if installed) and the switches close to the electrical compartment, not where they make good sense from an operating perspective.

If you join the Felder discussion group in the files section there are plans to make a remote switch box with a coil cord that you can clip to your slider’s accessory rail. I think it even has all the McMaster part numbers.

Greg

Thanks! That would be great. I asked if I could buy a kit for this saw from Felder, was told they are not available for the Hammer line.

Where is this Felder discussion group? Is this it? https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup

[Derek Cohen]

I appreciate the conversation and sage advice from more experienced users of these machines. I have not spent much time operating my K3, but I already know that it is a game changer. I will have to knock it for what I think is a bizarre design error, and that's the on/off button location. It's positioned where I would kinda expect it to be if it were a traditional cabinet saw. It's awkward to start the saw when I'm to the left side of the slider/wagon. Puts my head in the line of fire if I reach for the button.

I think I'm going to just order some T-tracks, extruded aluminum pieces and a couple Veritas flip stops from Lee Valley that I really like. I can then play around with this stuff and figure out what configuration works best for me. I seem to always have a need for these jig parts, so I'm sure what I don't use for the F&F jig will get used for something, eventually.

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Michael, after my frustration with the start/off button, I added a paddle switch. I always planned to build something nicer, but this has worked so well, that it has remained.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/HammerK3OffSwitchPaddle.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lisa Starr]

My saw is an SC2C, not a Felder/Hammer machine, but I too found the location of the on/off switch a bother. After installing a ceiling mounted blade guard, I installed a 2nd On/Off station on that structure. I never use the OEM location any more.

[Michael Drew]

Glad I'm not the only one who's irritated over switch location...... Maybe Felder should hire some of the Festool engineers. I marvel at just how ingenious the green tools are whenever I use them.

I did see your paddle switch Derek. Pretty nifty device. I still need to start it though, and that's what bugs me. This saw has some knock outs under the slider that appear to be for a second switch. Same size, mounting holes, ect. I could probably just relocate the switch in the control box. I'll have to ponder that idea a bit.

[Jim Becker]

Switch location(s) on machines can be a challenge for sure...the switch location on my new SC3C is in a different place than it was on the S315WS I used for a decade and a half...I bet things will be interesting early on with reaching to the wrong place on occasion!