making narrow rail/stile shaker doors

[David Zaret]

well, i got my first request for a job making ultra-narrow rail and stile shaker doors. it was bound to happen, but i've been secretly hoping it wouldn't.

these need to be walnut, so "cut them on the CNC out of a slab of MDF isn't the answer i'm going for.

does anyone have guidance on making these? i have tooling for all varieties of cope and stick, and the equipment to make just about anything, but i honestly don't know the best approach for these. obviously the issue is the hardware. i'd like to use concealed euro hinges, which, best to my knowledge, require a minimum thickness. so, is the answer to do standard cope and stick, but make the doors 1 1/4" thick and use thick-door hinges?

any guidance is very much appreciative. this is a good client, it's a great job, and i need to get her a price, and this is the wildcard.

-- dz

[J.R. Rutter]

Can you give more details? Like how narrow is narrow? What hinges are you thinking about specifically? How deep is the inside profile if anything besides square?

[Richard Coers]

What the customer wants is not always what can be built. You will want to use all quarter sawn wood for the panels to limit movement, if she doesn't allow the minimum for european hinges you have to go with butt hinges. You may need a third hinge to keep the narrow stock flush with the case. But maybe most importantly, you might suggest you will not warrant that design as it is very limited for strength.

[Cameron Wood]

Since you reference euro hinges, then presumably you are talking about cabinet doors. Shaker style means square profile, so not sure why you would cope. If "ultra narrow" meant 1 1/4", and the frame was 1 1/4" thick, that would literally be 'square sticking'. It's not clear whether 'narrow' and 'thick' are referring to width or thickness. 1 1/4" thick cabinet doors sounds odd. Never heard of 'thick door hinges'. Walnut ply panels could be glued in place to make up for lack of strength in narrow frames.

Cheers, jay

[Jim Becker]

I agree with both JR...we need more information...and Richard..."doable" has to be factored in and that means not only able to be built but also to be able to stay together with use.

[Derek Cohen]

David, I guess that this is an aesthetic wanted. It can be done (I have done so). However, the issue is - as you no doubt are aware, that the frame will be liable to twist. A possible way around this is to build quite a bit thicker than standard 3/4” thick frames. I would be considering 1 1/4” or there abouts. The panel should also be thick enough not to twist, and veneered ply is better than solid wood or veneered MDF for the added stiffness and ability to be glued in, not floating.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Zaret]

thanks for the replies, clearly i didn't provide enough info. yes, these are for cabinet doors. imagine a shaker door where the front rails and stiles are 7/8" wide. now - the backs can be wider - so one could envision a profile that's like a "reverse glass door." in that case, the rails and stiles could be 2" wide, but with the front hogged back to reveal only 1" or so. that's the look they are going for.

"thick door" euro hardware is a thing. if you try to use a "normal" 35mm cup hinge in an inset thick door, the door will bind on the frame (or whatever's next to it) when opened. thick door hinges change the "throw" to ensure the door is vaulted forward enough to clear what's next to it.

i've done some homework, and it appears that these are typically made with an applied moulding, mitered around the edge of a 3/4" panel. so, the back is flush/flat, and the small front shaker look is achieved with this mitered moulding. i dislike this idea for a number of reasons, and really want to see if i can do it with a traditional, non-mitered cope and stick approach.

i have a call in to great lakes custom tooling, and email out to greg at rangate, and an active conversation going with mark elliott. i'll report back if i figure it out, but it doesn't look easy.

[Phillip Mitchell]

7/8” wide is pretty narrow. I dont do a lot of cabinetry but sounds like an interesting challenge and it’s definitely a look that has some traction these days and can look pretty clean.

How do you mount a Euro cup hinge in a stile that’s only 7/8” wide...or is that why you’re saying go full width (on the back half) and rabbet out for the narrow front reveal, and build them thick enough to accommodate cup hinge depth + panel thickness sitting partially in front of it? I would think that glueing in the panel (from veneered ply) would help with flatness and help keep it flat as opposed to relying on just the frame and floating a panel?

I have never used the “thick door” Euro hinges but always been curious. What brand/model of them do you prefer?

What is the height and width dimension range of the doors in question?

What is the profile desired? When you say shaker I think flat panel and square edge rail and stile, but there are obviously variations.

[Jared Sankovich]

Since you reference euro hinges, then presumably you are talking about cabinet doors. Shaker style means square profile, so not sure why you would cope. If "ultra narrow" meant 1 1/4", and the frame was 1 1/4" thick, that would literally be 'square sticking'. It's not clear whether 'narrow' and 'thick' are referring to width or thickness. 1 1/4" thick cabinet doors sounds odd. Never heard of 'thick door hinges'. Walnut ply panels could be glued in place to make up for lack of strength in narrow frames.

Cheers, jay

Unfortunately shaker only means flat panel currently. Could be bevel or square sticking.. or "moulded shaker" the current industry term for flat panel doors with anything from applied moulding to ogee sticking.

1.25 is a bit thicker than the more common 1 to 1.125 stock thick door sizes. Salice and blum both offer thick door hinges good to 35mm or so in door thickness. Salice allows for tigher reveals than blum though, I still prefer blum for adjustments.

[Bradley Gray]

David, I like the reverse glass door idea, perhaps with a bit of groove into the 7/8" part. Plenty of room for the hinge socket.

[David Zaret]

David, I like the reverse glass door idea, perhaps with a bit of groove into the 7/8" part. Plenty of room for the hinge socket.

yeah this is a real challenge. i know that i could make these by miter wrapping a panel - that's how guys are doing it now. that's a PIA, and not the look i want. but, she may have to compromise, we'll see. if Great Lakes can make tooling for me to do a cope and stick, i'll go that route. we'll see.

phillip - my proposal was to use "full width" rails and stiles, but with the fronts cut way back, and thick enough so that the back of the stile, and the panel, could accept the hinge cup depth. i can make the depth work, that's not a concern.

--- dz

[John Ziebron]

David, I recently made a small table for my living room with one drawer and one door. The door panel is not very big and I made the rails and stiles as small as possible, which is 1 3/8 wide by 5/8 thick. By trail and error this was the absolute minimum size they could be and allow the use of Blum mini hinges. You can read more here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?298910-A-middle-table

[David Zaret]

7/8” wide is pretty narrow. I dont do a lot of cabinetry but sounds like an interesting challenge and it’s definitely a look that has some traction these days and can look pretty clean.

How do you mount a Euro cup hinge in a stile that’s only 7/8” wide...or is that why you’re saying go full width (on the back half) and rabbet out for the narrow front reveal, and build them thick enough to accommodate cup hinge depth + panel thickness sitting partially in front of it? I would think that glueing in the panel (from veneered ply) would help with flatness and help keep it flat as opposed to relying on just the frame and floating a panel?

I have never used the “thick door” Euro hinges but always been curious. What brand/model of them do you prefer?

What is the height and width dimension range of the doors in question?

What is the profile desired? When you say shaker I think flat panel and square edge rail and stile, but there are obviously variations.


i'd like to see a slight bevel, ideally. beveled shaker is my go-to. for hinges, i pretty much only use Blum in case there's a really good reason to go elsewhere.

[David Zaret]

David, I recently made a small table for my living room with one drawer and one door. The door panel is not very big and I made the rails and stiles as small as possible, which is 1 3/8 wide by 5/8 thick. By trail and error this was the absolute minimum size they could be and allow the use of Blum mini hinges. You can read more here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?298910-A-middle-table

john - good work. that's a nice table. i did look at the blum minis. we'll see how it goes. there's also this:

https://www.richelieu.com/us/en/category/hinges-slides-and-opening-systems/hinges-and-accessories/european-style-concealed-hinges/blum-hinges/blumotion-clip-top/110-clip-top-blumotion-for-thin-door-hinge/1207550/sku-71B453T180

... but $18 per hinge. i have to have a serious talk with the client, and start playing around with options.

-- dz

[Kevin Jenness]

f you are dead set against a wrapped veneered panel I think you are on the right track with a wide, thick back section and a thin, narrow front. A half-lap joint plus spline tenon should work. You will have to go at least 1 1/8" thick.

[David Zaret]

f you are dead set against a wrapped veneered panel I think you are on the right track with a wide, thick back section and a thin, narrow front. A half-lap joint plus spline tenon should work. You will have to go at least 1 1/8" thick.

exactly what i was thinking kevin - thanks. we'll see what the tooling makers say. could be a tricky head to make.

[John Ziebron]

john - good work. that's a nice table. i did look at the blum minis. we'll see how it goes. there's also this:

https://www.richelieu.com/us/en/category/hinges-slides-and-opening-systems/hinges-and-accessories/european-style-concealed-hinges/blum-hinges/blumotion-clip-top/110-clip-top-blumotion-for-thin-door-hinge/1207550/sku-71B453T180

... but $18 per hinge. i have to have a serious talk with the client, and start playing around with options.

-- dz

David, I looked at the Blum version of those hinges too before I saw the minis. As an FYI, I bought the minis for $3.96 and the 6mm face frame adapter plates for $1.24 each at WoodworkerExpress.

[David Zaret]

David, I looked at the Blum version of those hinges too before I saw the minis. As an FYI, I bought the minis for $3.96 and the 6mm face frame adapter plates for $1.24 each at WoodworkerExpress.

that's a better price than i'm seeing on richelieu.... $4.12 a hinge. but, was that pre-pandemic? everything seems to be universally up. one thing about those hinges, they don't have the soft close blumotion integrated, which is a bit of an issue.... i would have to do that externally, and that's added expense in parts and labor.