Knew Concepts Coping Saw - Thoughts?

[Rob Luter]

One of the shortcomings of my dovetailing technique is sawing the waste out. I have a couple old time coping saws and the blade tension is so poor I can't risk getting close to the line for fear of wavering over. As a result I have to chisel more than I planned and sometimes find a way to botch that.

The Knew Concepts coping saw has been in the market for a while now and seems to be very well thought of. I've seen a few reviews and all seem to be positive. They also have fret saws available, but my experience with Fret Saws in the past suggests they be reserved to very fine work and thin stock. The coping saw seems better suited to sawing out waste in hardwoods.

To those that have pulled the trigger on these, what say you? They're a bit spendy but if they work as represented I can live with the cost. Any regrets? Asking for Santa, as he's looking for ideas.
https://www.knewconcepts.com/images/products/thumbs/CopingMK3-6.5inch_thumb.jpg

[Derek Cohen]

Rob, I have this coping saw, and it is all you would want it to be (except I found the handle a little short). Having said this, the fretsaw is the tool of choice. You just need to learn to use it.

The secret to fretsawing dovetail waste is less high tension (high tension is still good), and more about control. Control comes from keeping the blade straight and preventing it curving as you pull/cut. To do this, use very light strokes, hold the saw/handle lightly (as you would a dovetail saw).

I've posted this video a few times now ...


https://youtu.be/M6O4rY_0zQs

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mike stenson]

I have both the coping saw and the fretsaw. While I agree completely with Derek, I'll just add that I use the coping saw to waste casework in thick stock such as the 7/8" stock for the credenza this past year. With that said, if I had to pick one, it would be the fretsaw.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used a coping saw for dovetails for about 45 years. Around 1987 I upgraded to an Eclipse coping saw, which is very rigid and I can recommend. The Eclipse sells for around $20.

[Frederick Skelly]

I have and use the KC Fretsaw for dovetails. As Derek said "It's everything you want it to be."
No regrets.

Edit: Do you NEED a $100 coping/fret saw? Nope. Not if you find something for less that works well, like Warren's Eclipse. But if you want the KC and can afford one, I dont think you'll be disappointed.

[David Bassett]

Just in case, learn to cut on the pull stroke with any coping saw!

I bought the Knew Concepts because I bought into the stiffer will help you cut better hype. It is much stiffer than any other coping saw I've used and therefore more pleasant to use (and more robust in handling the odd awkward stroke), *BUT* it is not stiff enough (for me) to reliably cut on the push stroke. (Being raised on western saws a push cut feels more natural to me.) Changing to a pull cut and taking the time to get used to the (slightly) different feel is what was revolutionary for me and controlling my cuts. (OK, still need more practice before I'll call myself good at it.)

As far as Warren's Eclipse recommendation I don't know if Eclipse saws have changed over the years or there are different models. I grabbed an Eclipse at my local Woodcraft in an attempt to upgrade my ancient no-name (probably Sears or Craftsman) saw and found it as stiff as a wet noodle and a clear downgrade. That's what got me to fork over for the Knew Concepts saw. Should I go back, using the Eclipse on the pull stroke and being much much smoother in my technique, I could probably use it now.

No one has mentioned blades. I think they can make a huge difference. The common recommendation these days are Pegas blades. I've found their 18tpi Skip-Tooth to work well for me, though they make others and which works best probably depends most on the size of your work. (Also, in a class I took, Chris Gochnour used my saw for a quick demo and liked my Pegas skip-tooth enough he made a note. If he ever runs out of his stash of ('60's?) blades, he said he would try these as replacement.)

[Thomas Wilson]

I have both Knew Concept saws. I am really impressed with the engineering on the frame and tensioning mechanism of both to improve a tool that is a hundred years old or more. That is some deep thinking. Personally, I use the coping saw for dovetails but I am not the smoothest sawyer around.

[Jim Koepke]

My Knew Concepts Fret Saw changed my abilities with using a fret saw. With my old fret saws a blade would break almost every time the saw was used. The Knew Concepts saw lead me to learn how to set up my other fret saws with higher tension to save the blades. (The KCFS is still better)

Another point about fret saws is there is an amazing variety of blades available.

Lee Valley has a great selection of blades > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/fret/32916-pkg-of-22-assorted-fret-blades?item=29T0401 < This is the deal I like for its range of blades.

If the Knew Concepts Coping Saw is as good as their fret saw, then you will still be glad you bought one long after you wince at the cost.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

Thanks to all for the responses.

Derek - I read your review on the products on your website and appreciate you chiming in. My hesitancy on the fret saw comes with my experience with a couple vintage Olson saws I used to have. There were several issues. First was blade tension. There wasn’t much. Second was the retention of the blade in the end clamps. Very unpredictable. Third was the very fine tooth on available blades. They were always so fine that cutting through QSWO or Walnut of any thickness was a very slow process. I liken it to using me Exacto razor saw to cut dovetails. Laser accuracy, glacial pace.

I’ve been watching Doucette and Wolfe YouTube content and they follow a process like your example shows. The difference is that they use a coping saw and it goes pretty quickly comparison. I see the height of the coping saw blades is about twice that of the fret saw blades, allowing the fret saw to “turn the corner” in the kerf in a more nimble fashion. Still, I’m concerned about tooth pitch and cutting speed. What blades do you use?

Correction: I rewatched the videos and they do use a Fret Saw. It's the large frame model and I mistook it for the coping saw.

[Tom Trees]

Yet to make myself a saw, I think I may hopefully have some stainless plate knocking about.
Bought an old Eclipse to potentially use parts from, or maybe just for study, so this thread is interesting.
Here's an old looking fretsaw which I seen on a tool dealers, it looks the business, if a little short.
Just putting it out there, should it be common enough, or similar to another maker?

If so, I'd like to know what the shortcomings are, should it be improved upon.
Cheers
Tom

https://i.postimg.cc/qvMvK33Y/Fretsaw.jpg
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[Michael Bulatowicz]

I’m obviously not Derek, but I’ll say that my favorite fret saw blades so far are the Olson PGT reverse skip tooth blades, 8 TPI. They may sound coarse, but they really aren’t. I like the combination of speed and precision they provide. As long as you let the tool do the work rather than applying pressure to get them to cut even faster, they last a good while, too.

[Derek Cohen]

Tom, a potential shortcoming of that design is the weight. A light fretsaw adds control. Secondly, one of the design briefs for the KC saw was the ability to adjust the blade to 45 degrees. That adds distance to the cut length.

With an angled blade, depth of the fretsaw can be kept smaller. All mine are 5” in titanium, but 3” is sufficient … and cheaper. Further, the smaller size opens up the option of aluminium as the material since smaller is stiffer.

Blades: Pegas skip tooth #7. My original choice (many years ago) was the 18 tpi Eclipse, which are easy to find in Oz, and cheap. Lee Marshall (the original maker-designer) was impressed by them as well, but he said to me that they were difficult to access in the USA.

For those wanting to use a coping saw, I recall that (some years ago) Tools for Working Wood sold thinner blades. This could travel down the kerf of a modern dovetail saw.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mike stenson]

The 18tpi skip tooth pegas blades fit in the kerf left by my LN dovetail saw.

[Dale Osowski]

I went with the coping saw for dovetails and so far it works great even on small, tight areas. I may get the fret saw as well but for now the coping saw is doing a great job.

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[Mike Brady]

The Knew Concepts fret saw (I have the coping saw size) is far superior, in my opinion, to the less expensive coping or fret saws generally available. I found some nice German-made fret saw in the used market, but they didn't come close to the KC saw for rigidity, and thus, control of the cut. I prefer Pegus skip-tooth blades. The years-old discussions abouth the KC stock handle are non-sense, unless you have the desire and skills to make a prettier handle. Buying one doubles the investment in the saw, and that would seem to be an overreach.

[Mike Brady]

The Knew Concepts fret saw (I have the coping saw size) is far superior, in my opinion, to the less expensive coping or fret saws generally available. I found some nice German-made fret saw in the used market, but they didn't come close to the KC saw for rigidity, and thus, control of the cut. I prefer Pegus skip-tooth blades. The years-old discussions abouth the KC stock handle are non-sense, unless you have the desire and skills to make a prettier handle. Buying one doubles the investment in the saw, and that would seem to be an overreach.

[Jim Koepke]

The years-old discussions abouth the KC stock handle are non-sense, unless you have the desire and skills to make a prettier handle.

It has crossed my mind a few times to make my own custom handle. Having become used to the stock handle has put that on the back burner for now.

jtk

[David Bassett]

This thread has covered much of the coping and fret saw territory, but for a complete landscape the Blue Spruce "Ultimate Coping Saw" needs to be put on the table. I've never seen one in the flesh, but every review I seen raves about it. Be wary though, it's enough to make the Knew Concept saws seem budget priced! :)

[Rob Luter]

The Knew Concepts fret saw (I have the coping saw size) is far superior, in my opinion, to the less expensive coping or fret saws generally available. I found some nice German-made fret saw in the used market, but they didn't come close to the KC saw for rigidity, and thus, control of the cut. I prefer Pegus skip-tooth blades. The years-old discussions abouth the KC stock handle are non-sense, unless you have the desire and skills to make a prettier handle. Buying one doubles the investment in the saw, and that would seem to be an overreach.

I’m assuming you mean you have the 5” version? Any perceived advantage over the 3” version? Mine would be dedicated to clearing dovetail waste.

[Derek Cohen]

I’m assuming you mean you have the 5” version? Any perceived advantage over the 3” version? Mine would be dedicated to clearing dovetail waste.

Rob, when Lee Marshall and I began working on the fretsaw for dovetailing, my mindset was on the 5” - 8” size, simply because that was the size of the fretsaws I had been using up to that date. Hence my saws are 5”. However, once we designed in the 45 degree angle, Lee took a few photos of the depth of cut of the various sizes.

5” depth will cut 3 1/2” at 45 degrees …

https://i.postimg.cc/sfhPv57Y/KC455inch.jpg


3” depth will cut 2” at 45 degrees ..

https://i.postimg.cc/Rh7nGQL2/KC453inch.jpg

99% of dovetails will not go deeper than 1”.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

Thanks Derek. I did the math and that was my conclusion as well. I think the 3” version will be fine for my needs.

Edit: Hoping I'm right as I pulled the trigger this morning. 3" With lever tension and swivel clamps. Now the waiting game.

[joe maday]

As far as I can remember no fret or copping saw is meant to be used by pushing the saw to cut...they all have always been designed to cut on the pull stroke. And yes I have found that the proper blade is a key...some like high tooth count some like less and thicker blades..the blade would match the task at hand (coarser teeth for thick woods, dinner for thin woods, even finer for veneering).
But the "take you time" approach when cutting is the way to achieve results, no matter which saw brand/blade is used. Blade tension obviously controls blade deflection and wandering but light, easy cuts are the key. Handles are personal preference, just like chisel or even hammer handles...but the workings are the same. 5" vs 3'...fret saws...the 5 would give more room for cuts other than dovetails..not much "flex" difference between the two, going to deeper 8"+ throats might, and to spend $$$ on a fret saw for just dovetail waste might be limiting in the future.....the 5" is a nice in-between size.....My2cents

[Tom Trees]

Thanks for your thoughts folks, and to Derek for his meticulous contributions.
I've heard the suggestion of lightness being a key point, but wasn't sure if that wasn't just a Knew Concepts commercial...

Obviously, lighter is more controllable, say for doing scroll work...which I presumed was the design brief for the design of this saw.


Perhaps I have got the wrong end of the stick on this, and scroll work wasn't an intention.
Kinda seems so though, since they supply differing depths.
and I've a hard time believing that one needs control for dovetails vs something possibly bit awkward but sureworthy none the less.
Another thing, having seen folks take a pliers to twist the blade on trad ones, I question if there's a heck of a lot more tension
with the Knew Concepts or Blue spruce saws....(thanks for mentioning those David)

So much so that twisting a blade at this tension is possibly a bad thing,
or that all/most of these fancier blades just don't like that ?

Is there need for a coping saw to ever be straight cutting, or possibly just to orientate the blade in the opposite direction,
as it seems I could bodge one a lot easier which would cut in one orientation only.


Thanks again
Tom

[George Yetka]

I have had one for a year now and used it 1 time. I probably should have stuck with the $20 one I barely used. But they are very nice to look at.

[Jim Koepke]

But the "take you time" approach when cutting is the way to achieve results, no matter which saw brand/blade is used.

The "take your time" approach works well for me.

Rushing to beat the clock seems to always make a mess of things.

A methodical approach always seems to produce a better result.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

I'm astonished, one is supposed to even consider a Titanium frame for a fret saw to saw linear cuts to remove waste, not even to cut to the line? We're not even considering scroll work or inlays.

[mike stenson]

Are we even talking about the titanium ones?

[Christopher Charles]

Hi all,

I've got the (aluminum) fret saw and picked because it uses pinless scrollsaw blades. I also have an Olson style coping saw with blades from TFWW. Blade choice is most important in my experience and for cutting waste in dovetails, there's nothing really magic about about the KC. That said, no regrets but in the luxury category. I'll also note that I've found cutting a straight line with a coping/fret saw (or scrollsaw) to be more of a challenge than expected.

Best,
Chris

[steven c newman]

An expensive tool, that adds an extra step to make a simple joint.....meh...and, you STILL need to use a chisel to pare to the baseline.....no thank you...I can spend that amount of "extra" cash on a stack of lumber...instead.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Got a Craigslist deal on the KC aluminum fret saw. I like it because the Olson blades I use are interchangeable with my scroll saw. I also have the KC coping saw (estate sale “you suck” deal). I’ll admit I wouldn’t have purchased either at full list price, but I do use them if I only have a few cuts. Otherwise it’s the scroll saw.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Some years ago Bob Smalser made some very small bow saws to fit coping saw blades. I copied him in making a simple one that tensions the blade much better than my coping saw, providing more control on the push stroke. It works well for dovetails.

If you were cutting intricate curves, the light weight of a KC saw might be helpful in swinging the saw accurately back and forth. I donÂ’t see an advantage to the extreme light weight for dovetails.

[Rob Luter]

Well, the new fret saw showed up today. I wound up ordering the 3" MK IV version with the lever tension and swivel blade clamps. I made a couple test cuts and am more than impressed. More to follow after some use.