IKEA thin ply wood - Pine?

[Warren Gandy]

I recently (Oct 2022) walked through IKEA and spotted a piece of "furniture" made of a thin ply plywood. The plies appear to have a thickness similar to baltic birch, a material that I've seen in a lot of IKEA products. But the face looks all wrong. Is it me or does this look like pine?
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[Bob Vavricka]

Looks like fir plywood to me

[Jeff Roltgen]

Yep. CDX.
This is getting pretty funny anymore - watching the el-cheapo's grasping for any way to make it look like there is no inflation. Problem is, they were at bottom before all these issues came up, now no way left to cheat it through. And sadly, a large percentage of the public may not actually catch on?
I hope most people realize just how hard the "bottom of the barrel" is being scraped here...

[Jim Becker]

It does indeed look like fir/pine but it's also clearly multi-core which is more suitable for furniture.

[Andrew More]

Agreed pine plywood. That having been said, I think Pine is fine, and it really comes down to the quality of the wood, just like it would with a hardwood. I totally get the Ikea hate, but generally speaking they're pretty honest about what you're getting: cheap furniture at a cheap price.

It's stuff like Pottery Barn, and Restoration Hardware that burn me up. They'd take that same cheap plywood, give it a trendy name, a couple of custom touches, and charge 10K for it.

Here the thing I don't know. Where is the decent furniture at a reasonable price? Something that's not made of particle board and promises that going to last longer than time it takes to assemble and use it a few times? The Toyota Corolla/Honda Civic of the furniture world? At one point that was Ikea, we've still got some of the pine and maple furniture we bought from them, but I think that's long past.

[David Stone (CT)]

As other say, the face and plies appear to be fir plywood, albeit of a pretty high quality kind with quite a few plies and no voids visible. Back in the 1970s, my dad made some simple bookcase/hi-fi shelving units out of A/B fir ply that, years on, as woodworker, I recognized was amazingly good and much better than the fir ply readily available in more recent decades. IMO, nice fir plywood is a cool and interesting material for making furniture and creative expression (see, for example, sculptor Donald Judd's boxes). IKEA operates a scale where they can presumably spec stuff that is otherwise commercially unavailable. I can only wish to access fir ply comparable to what my dad purchased in his small town lumberyard 50 years back (while also acknowledging we've got a world of other materials better than most of what existed back then).

[Mel Fulks]

Rotary cut makes wood look funny .

[Bradley Gray]

Gotta be better than particle board.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

That may be Radiata. The ply structure is excellent.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Evidently I'm the only one seeing the uber-coarse 50 grit scratch pattern, like they just yanked it off the shelf at the local home center? Looks like something you would build a chicken coop out of.

Call me a snob, but making something out of construction grade sheet goods and calling it furniture is a desperate new low. Until they push it long enough that the public accepts, evidently.
At least the BBirch had some redeeming qualities about it, like hardwood core/facing and a more subdued edge pattern of the thinner layers.
Wondered what the big manufacturers were going to do without it now. Just plain yuck.

Watch for the newest trend in furniture fashion, at your local retailer soon:
Highly refined OSB cabinetry. Feel the luxurious texture, marvel at it's void free core, the beauty of the naturally selected wafers of wood, all bonded together with the utmost of care.

Yes, I'm being quite ruthless here, but I cannot help it.

Not sorry.

jeff

[Warren Gandy]

Ok, so I saw a comment about CDX. And Radiata as a specific brand that HD appears to carry. But I don't think I've ever seen pine plywood with plies as thin as this. I had, until now, speculated that pine didn't like to be cut that thin. If there is a US domestically available product like this, I would like to get my hands on some of it. I work with BB quite a bit for the strength and, more importantly, the stability. It's great for a lot of things. But I would love to have a domestic pine product that could get close to the same stability (on account of the high ply count) as another option.

Thanks for the comments everyone! I should hang out here more often.
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[Warren Gandy]

btw, I've been lumping Fir and Pine together so far in this thread. I should probably not do that. But my intended contrast was between these kinds of wood and Birch.

[Richard Coers]

Ok, so I saw a comment about CDX. And Radiata as a specific brand that HD appears to carry.
488716
Radiata is most often a plantation grown pine from Australia. It is not a brand.

[Mike King]

Evidently I'm the only one seeing the uber-coarse 50 grit scratch pattern, like they just yanked it off the shelf at the local home center? Looks like something you would build a chicken coop out of.

Call me a snob, but making something out of construction grade sheet goods and calling it furniture is a desperate new low. Until they push it long enough that the public accepts, evidently.
At least the BBirch had some redeeming qualities about it, like hardwood core/facing and a more subdued edge pattern of the thinner layers.
Wondered what the big manufacturers were going to do without it now. Just plain yuck.

Watch for the newest trend in furniture fashion, at your local retailer soon:
Highly refined OSB cabinetry. Feel the luxurious texture, marvel at it's void free core, the beauty of the naturally selected wafers of wood, all bonded together with the utmost of care.

Yes, I'm being quite ruthless here, but I cannot help it.

Not sorry.

jeff

There are people who seem to like the look of pine, and even of reclaimed barn wood, in their furniture. Not to my taste, but then to each their own. That is NOT CDX plywood from the big box store; there are no voids in the plies. It is most likely furniture grade plywood with pine veneer faces. And they likely "distressed" the veneers by deep sanding. Again, it may not be to my (or your) taste, but it is what some people want.

The sad part of it is that much of the general public doesn't see let alone value high quality custom woodworking. There's been a diminishment in the public's value of craft; evidence the demise of custom fine woodworking galleries.

[Warren Gandy]

Radiata is most often a plantation grown pine from Australia. It is not a brand.

Aha!

So, does this look like Radiata? And is plywood like this (thin plies) available in Australia? Southern CA?

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[Warren Gandy]

There are people who seem to like the look of pine,

I don't mind pine for some things. Stained with a warm yellow or orange stain etc.
But this IKEA piece caught my eye and I couldn't shake how wrong it looked, aesthetically. I might almost call it cringeworthy. And I'm not an IKEA hater. I like the simplicity and thriftiness of many of their designs. Some items are better than others but most of their products seem to be thoughtfully "engineered" which I appreciate.

But, if this plywood is either cheaper and/or lighter than baltic birch, I'd like to try it for some projects that are either painted or otherwise don't need aesthetic appeal.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Ikea has a huge global presence. Most of their products are made in Poland. I would not be surprised if mills that created birch plywood are having to find new sources for wood. The ply structure in the OP's image looks like Baltic Birch, the wood is obviously not birch. Ikea has created a lot of horrible particleboard crap. They have also succeeded at dominating a world wide market, and staying private. They will likely corner the market for a Baltic Birth substitute. The Radiata plywood I am familiar with comes from Chile. I like Pine, Spruce, and Fir.

P.S. Ikea is the most successful cabinet shop in the world.

[Curt Harms]

Ok, so I saw a comment about CDX. And Radiata as a specific brand that HD appears to carry. But I don't think I've ever seen pine plywood with plies as thin as this. I had, until now, speculated that pine didn't like to be cut that thin. If there is a US domestically available product like this, I would like to get my hands on some of it. I work with BB quite a bit for the strength and, more importantly, the stability. It's great for a lot of things. But I would love to have a domestic pine product that could get close to the same stability (on account of the high ply count) as another option.

Thanks for the comments everyone! I should hang out here more often.
488716

Apple ply? Though it's hardwood faces rather than pine. I think it's similar to Baltic Birch including price.

[Tom Bender]

As woodworkers we see value in what we do, why else would we do it?

For most people a bookshelf is valuable because it gets the books off the floor. The main disadvantage to Ikea is the need to assemble it, or get someone else to assemble it.

Pine vs BB? Pfftt!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Our son worked for a moving company In Chicago. The company eventually had to create a disclaimer about moving low end Ikea cabinetry. You just can not move some of those knock down particle board cabinets without them falling apart. It usually happens at the top of the stairs. I have had the job of repairing a lot of them. A glued on back that is masonite or plywood rather than cardboard helps hold them together. I had been critical of Ikea for years. The death of Jozef Dudek was not surprising to me but made me very sad.

My Dad has a supply of fine hard woods and Mahogany. He made caskets for mom and himself recently and chose Pine.

[Brian W Evans]

I don't mind pine for some things. Stained with a warm yellow or orange stain etc.
But this IKEA piece caught my eye and I couldn't shake how wrong it looked, aesthetically. I might almost call it cringeworthy. And I'm not an IKEA hater. I like the simplicity and thriftiness of many of their designs. Some items are better than others but most of their products seem to be thoughtfully "engineered" which I appreciate.

But, if this plywood is either cheaper and/or lighter than baltic birch, I'd like to try it for some projects that are either painted or otherwise don't need aesthetic appeal.

Totally agree. It is clearly not CDX but I would never be able to get over having furniture that looks like a subfloor. UGLY.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

There is a bit of a poverty stigma attached to Pine. A visit to Atlantic Veneer in NC cured me of any hesitation to admire Pine. Rotary cut is not the best look. Back in 1995 Atlantic had sheets of pine plywood with quartered face veneer from trees that had to have been over 6 feet in diameter. I hope to get back there with a van and some cash!

[Dave Sabo]

Fellas - I don’t expect a bunch of “fine woodworkers” to love IKEA products but you may want to park your prejudice for a bit and consider :

Not everyone has your appreciation or like for Chippendale or period Shaker furniture. And just as many think that heirloom you got from great great granny that came over on the Mayflower is better suited for firewood than adoration. Their opinion is no more or less valuable than yours.

I’m pretty sure all of you have furniture in your home which was constructed with time or money saving techniques and by a manuf. that cut corners. That’s ok because it’s yours ?

IKEA is one of the most vertically integrated operations around. Are all you craftsmen growing your own lumber ? Recycling the waste ? Those of you that are ……..are you designing your own work -or- just copying someone else’s design from another era ? Do you have new designs every year ? Do you do upholstery?

Do you employ more than a handful of people and turn a profit and pay out a dividend ?

Producing fine woodwork and making a profit is tough work even on a small scale. Darn near impossible given the lack of demand. Doing it at the scale and size of IKEA is unthinkable. The only way to lose as much money faster would be to start an airline.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Part of the appeal of the knock down cabinet seems to be that some folks enjoy the assembly process and feel like they have participated in creating themselves a piece of furniture. There is a place for it. When knock down items get too big they not work well.

[Alan Kalker]

For those actually making handcrafted furniture, the challenge is how to make the public understand the difference between nice looking furniture and well made furniture that will last. I recently completed a dining table for a couple with a leopard wood top and curved walnut base with a butterfly leaf. There was $2,400 in that table before I added labor. That table will hopefully be handed down and last generations. OTOH, some people like the idea of buying a $600 dining table and replacing it as their style preferences change. That is not my market.

[Dave Sabo]

Part of the appeal of the knock down cabinet seems to be that some folks enjoy the assembly process and feel like they have participated in creating themselves a piece of furniture. There is a place for it. When knock down items get too big they not work well.


I think you and others are missing the two of the most important attributes of IKEA:

It's cheap/affordable

I can have it today and it can come home with me in my car - all without having to sign up for a financing offer or deal with a sales weasel.

Sure, some like the attaboy, look what I did aspect ; most simply like the price + convenience along with a modicum of style.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I was disappointed when our town lost its Scandinavian Designs store. I could send clients there to get ideas for things they wanted me to make and the prices were usually within a range I could compete with. Given the jump in materials prices competing with a factory leaves little room to pay yourself.

[Dave Sabo]

For those actually making handcrafted furniture, the challenge is how to make the public understand the difference between nice looking furniture and well made furniture that will last.


The public absolutely understands the difference between the two; same as they do bespoke clothing, locally raised/grown organic food, and handmade automobiles . Their choice simply doesn't fit into your view of what the furniture market should be.

The other thing some around here don't seem to grasp -or want to accept - is that what our group might think is "nice looking" has little or no bearing on what the masses do.

[Jeff Roltgen]

The public absolutely understands the difference between the two

Indeed. Surprised how many people I would normally expect to reject my work over cost are now calling, getting on my list, expressing how they're so sick of that costume furniture and it's evident drive further to the bottom of the barrel. There certainly seems to be a growing demographic that's not necessarily seeking a piece of artwork or heirloom, just something that lasts beyond the 48 months zero interest contract. Again, the public is not ignorant.

Very grateful the Amish have developed a reputation that the public often refers to as an example of highest quality, at least at retail levels.
Once a client qualifies with this knowledge and budget level, yet needs customization/re-stylizing, I know there's a chance I can give them a custom piece for a cost that is manageable for them.


While material costs can be cited as an issue for the small operator, shipping and labor costs are now pushing those retail numbers ever higher, so I like to think the whole thing balances out, at least somewhat. I'm just replacing their excessive overhead with my ability to personalize and hand deliver solid quality. Some still clearly see the value of that trade off.

Just saying - so many obligations to deliver so much quantity, so much profitability, at pricing that appears to be immune to inflation = no room for quality, and that's disappointing to more than just a bunch of highly-critical woodworkers.

Thanks and praise to those who value what I do and have the patience and funding to have me build for them.

[Christopher Charles]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/31/realestate/fast-furniture-clogged-landfills.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

[Maurice Mcmurry]

if this plywood is either cheaper and/or lighter than baltic birch, I'd like to try it for some projects that are either painted or otherwise don't need aesthetic appeal.

From the web
489047 489048
(no title) (https://www.decorativehardwoods.org/sites/default/files/2021-02/408749%20DHP-HPVA%202021%20WTB-WEB.pdf)

[Warren Gandy]

Apple ply? Though it's hardwood faces rather than pine. I think it's similar to Baltic Birch including price.

The last time I got a quote on Apple ply it was about double the cost of BB. That may have been 20 years ago. As I understand, it is made from domestic birch (The use of the word 'Apple' in the name was apparently meant to play on national pride - The poetry being that this product is as 'Merican as Apple Pie). I also understand that it is an excellent quality plywood. I have indeed experienced a fair amount of variation in the quality of the Baltic Birch that I've purchased from various places over the years and have yet to try Apple Ply.