What Is The Most Difficult Power Tool In The Wood Working Shop?

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My vote is for the 3 X 21 and / or 4 X 24 portable belt sander. I have handed both to would be helpers and regretted it. Do others have a least favorite?

[Phillip Mitchell]

What exactly do you mean by most difficult? Difficult to master/handle?

Handheld belt sander can certainly do some damage in the hands of the inexperienced or with a crappy platen.

[Paul Haus]

What exactly do you mean by most difficult? Difficult to master/handle?

Handheld belt sander can certainly do some damage in the hands of the inexperienced or with a crappy platen.
My vote for most damaging/dangerous would be a portable hand planer. There are others but this one tops my list.

[Mike Wilkins]

I'm going to vote for the router. Ever had a bit work loose and gouge a divot in your solid Maple work bench? Or nick your finger when you got too close to a spinning bit on the router table while brushing away some sawdust?
Not my idea of a good day.

[andy bessette]

With all the reports we hear of members seriously injuring themselves on a table saw, I think you guys are just beating around the bush. :)

[Christopher Herzog]

Shaper

I have an old Boice Crane from the old school. No dust collection of any type. Half inch or three quarter cutters are swinging meat cleavers. Old Baldor motor has three belts to spin the thing. Gets used very infrequently....

My two cents,
Chris

[Mike Cutler]

There are many tools that can do damage very quickly if used incorrectly, or in experienced hands,I’ve messed up my share of projects with a belt sander and a power planer.
The most difficult to master, in my opinion, is also the most useful, but most under utilized, and that is the shaper.
The shaper is an amazing tool, but the learning curve is pretty steep. It can also be a very expensive machine. The cost of cutters and a good fence can very quickly exceed the initial cost of the machine.
But what a machine!!

[Mark Hennebury]

One that doesn't work like it is Supposed to!

[Bill Dufour]

Router or big right angle drill. If the bit grabs it can snap the bit or your wrist
Bill D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Dad was very hesitant to train any of his 3 boys on the shaper. I do not have one but use his from time to time. I do not think I will ever feel real comfortable using a shaper.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

What exactly do you mean by most difficult? Difficult to master/handle?

Handheld belt sander can certainly do some damage in the hands of the inexperienced or with a crappy platen.

Difficult to learn to use without doing damage.

[JOEL MONGEON]

"I'm going to vote for the router. Ever had a bit work loose and gouge a divot in your solid Maple work bench? Or nick your finger when you got too close to a spinning bit on the router table while brushing away some sawdust?
Not my idea of a good day."

Oh I did that only once. I decided to vacuum up sawdust left on the table and got the end of the hose to close to the spinning down router bit. Pulled my hand right in. Luckily it was just a small cut but I think I needed a change of pants after that.

[William Hodge]

Tape measures.

Dammed things get it wrong, sick of it, will fling offending tape measure over the fence into hated neighbor's yard. Get another tape out of the case, use it for a while, it measures stuff an inch too short or something, wasted wood, wasted time, never going to be able to fix all the stuff ruined by tape measures measuring stuff wrong.

[Curt Harms]

Dad was very hesitant to train any of his 3 boys on the shaper. I do not have one but use his from time to time. I do not think I will ever feel real comfortable using a shaper.

And that's probably a good thing. A hand fed shaper might have the biggest appetite for human flesh short of a jointer with square cutterhead.

[Prashun Patel]

At least with the table saw, there are very good and safe ways to do almost any kind of operation it is capable of.

I vote for router and router table. Tear-out and (worse) kick back are not intuitive, and are dependent on the grain direction and type of bit. There are no comfortable ways to work on small pieces. There's just too much non-intuitive thinking required.

I've never used a shaper but I am sure that would top my list.

[Rich Engelhardt]

My vote for most damaging/dangerous would be a portable hand planer. There are others but this one tops my list.
I have to agree 100% on this. Even if I had my 12 ga SXs Coach Gun in the shop - - the power hand plane is more than up to the task of causing massive damage in a short period of time.

It's so sinister because it's so innocent looking - right up to the point that it catches its cord on something and goes sideways across the surface.
The all you can do is quietly sob....

The tool I most afraid of though is my Bostitch FW28WW framing nailer. I have nightmares about that rascal chasing me around the house trying to crucify me. Seriously though - I had the pressure up too high the first time I tried that gun. It shot a 3 1/2" nail completely through a 2X4.

[Phillip Mitchell]

One that doesn't work like it is Supposed to!

This is my answer as well and thankfully I have upgraded enough over time to get and eliminate most of those types of headaches.

[Jim Becker]

I vote for...."the woodworker". :) The power often fluctuates which definitely affects the results.... ;)

But my signature points toward my other answer which is kinda consistent with Mark Hennebury's comment.

[Prashun Patel]

Jim, Has anyone commented on your cool new profile picture? You like to change it every decade!!!

I can't tell if that glow behind you is curly locks or the moon. Please clarify, because this will affect whether I heretofore picture you as Magistrate or Astronomer.

[Michael Drew]

I have to relearn how to use my dovetail jigs every single time I drag one out..... As far as most dangerous goes, I have a 4" right angle grinder that I can fit a carbide tooth blade to. Super handy when I need it, but also terrifying.

[Bryan Hall]

For me it’s the router. I very rarely like the results I get and I’m always concerned that it desires to eat my hands. Loud too!

Going to give a festool router a try soon. Hoping I like it.

[Gordon Dale]

I'll have to agree with what several others have posted: for me it's a hand-held router, particularly my trim router. It looks cute but has the heart of a killer. It's like holding a Tasmanian devil (not that I've ever held, nor hope to hold, a Tasmanian devil!).

[Alan Rutherford]

My vote is for the 3 X 21 and / or 4 X 24 portable belt sander. I have handed both to would be helpers and regretted it. Do others have a least favorite?

While I would agree that nothing will take a finger off like a table saw, I believe you're asking what tool will really mess up a job for you and IMO the belt sander is right up there. Interestingly I read this thread right after one in which people are debatng whether rotary sanders are gentle enough to use in the shop and certainly whatever you can mess up with a rotary sander you can butcher with a belt.

I bought my first one over 50 years ago when I was managng an apartment house. Cheap student housing, all the entrances were exposed to the weather and the flat-panel doors needed attention. I really gouged some of them before I decided there had to be a better way. Experience would have helped of course but there's no doubt a portable belt sander can tear through some material in a hurry.

[Edward Weber]

I have no issues with tools of any kind, it's people that are the most dangerous/difficult JMHO

[Jim Becker]

Jim, Has anyone commented on your cool new profile picture? You like to change it every decade!!!

I can't tell if that glow behind you is curly locks or the moon. Please clarify, because this will affect whether I heretofore picture you as Magistrate or Astronomer.
LOL. You can check out the iterations in my shop build thread from a few days ago. I took the shot using portrait mode (iOS) and one of the automagic filters was the black background. It does seem to have a little bit of glow to it. :)

----

Someone recently mentioned dovetail jigs. Yea, those can be hard when one doesn't use them very often. I don't miss the one I sold one bit! (Leigh, believe it or not)

[Kevin Jenness]

The most difficult tool to master in my shop, although not normally considered a power tool, is the one between my ears.

[Andrew More]

Never used a shaper, does a power feeder address most of the dangerous aspects of it?

[Mark Hennebury]

Toyota to Pay $1.2B for Hiding Deadly ‘Unintended Acceleration’ABC News first reported concerns in 2009; FBI: Toyota "put sales over safety."


Any Machinery that doesn't do what it is supposed to is very dangerous. Take routers with "speed control" for instance.


I have no issues with tools of any kind, it's people that are the most dangerous/difficult JMHO

[Gordon Dale]

The most difficult tool to master in my shop, although not normally considered a power tool, is the one between my ears.
...not normally considered a power tool... Ha! That was fantastic.

[Ray Newman]

I will agree with what Mark Hennebury posted: "One that doesn't work like it is supposed to!"

[mike calabrese]

As usual I am going far off in the weeds here. I believe there is no such thing as a the most difficult power tool in the wood shop. Yes there are many tools that are hard to handle / use but that mostly comes down to the brain power or lack there of someone put into the tool when designed, cut a few corners to fit a market and the brain of the operator.

All power tools have rules we all know them and we all violate them regular.
Routers used with dull bits or pulled into a climb cut when we know it has the capacity to go all wrong.
Shapers that are used by an intimidated operator ( I would guess that is all of us to some degree it sure is me big time scares the crap out of me !)
Jointers oftetn used without blade guards and work pieces fed through without riding the fence
A tablesaw just because we use one so often we get complaicent and too comfortable, especially when there is a dado blade installed. In the UK & Europe if you buy a tablesaw it is deliberatley fitted with short arbors to prevent their use.
I use a 12 inch disc sander and can't tell you how many times I left skin and blood on that 80 grit monster just because I was lazy, stupid and in a hurry.

So all power tools are dangerous even sometimes before we plug them in.
mike calabrese

[John Goodin]

The only tool I haven’t used, that I wouldn’t be excited to use, is the shaper.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have to relearn how to use my dovetail jigs every single time I drag one out..... As far as most dangerous goes, I have a 4" right angle grinder that I can fit a carbide tooth blade to. Super handy when I need it, but also terrifying.

I have a saw blade that fits a small grinder too. I tried it for cutting off cantilever floor joists that protruded from a house to create a balcony. I hope to never use it again. I have wondered about the chainsaw tooth carving wheels for a grinder. A coworker who is a skilled sculptor developed carpal tunnel and had to quit with the chisels and mallet. I showed him my grinder and catalogue images of the carving discs. His response "No way man!"

488688

Lately I use a multitool when have to cut things like protruding floor joists.

[andy bessette]

...I have wondered about the chainsaw tooth carving wheels for a grinder...

I have one of those branded "Excalibur" IIRC. Excellent at rough hogging lots of material.

[Patrick Johnson]

My vote is for the 3 X 21 and / or 4 X 24 portable belt sander. I have handed both to would be helpers and regretted it. Do others have a least favorite?

Table saw kick back can definitely scare your pants off, and a wood lathe that chucks a 4x4 past your head will give you pause, but I think the most dangerous tool is the drill press due to complacency while trying to hold an object with your hands. Your hands and face are no match for a piece of wood rotating wildly when a bit catches it.

Patrick

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Table saw kick back that results in the work riding over the top of the blade and spinning back at high speed does a good job wrecking the work and potentially the worker as well.

The background for this question comes from having spent time in more than two shops that were in community environments. Anyone in the community could wander in and use the tools. The shop seniors were OK with very few rules and no rules at all. They were unfortunate situations.

[Ronald Blue]

The most difficult tool to master in my shop, although not normally considered a power tool, is the one between my ears.

Agree totally Kevin! Somedays we are sharp and somedays we are dull. That's the days that we are most dangerous. Just like a dull tool we don't always achieve the desired result on the "dull days".

[Moses Yoder]

the table saw is the most commonly used tool in a woodshop that causes trips to the ER. Most shops don't have a shaper and with a router your hands are up away from danger. I got basic safety advice about how to use a table saw in high school shop class but that option is long gone.

[Edward Weber]

488800

Complacency and lack of knowledge are the most dangerous thing in any shop.

[Bruce Mack]

My vote for most damaging/dangerous would be a portable hand planer. There are others but this one tops my list.
I regularly created huge snipe with my Bosch planer.

[Steve H Graham]

I've never seen anyone say, "I did everything right and still had a table saw accident." I guess it must be possible, but generally it's the arrogant or lazy guys who think guards, push sticks, and featherboards are for wimps.

If you want to see some amazing accidents that seem to defy the laws of physics, Google "buffer accident." It is astonishing how clever a buffer can be. You can't trust common sense when it comes to a buffer. You really have to do what the experts tell you. You will not be able to anticipate all the buffer's tricks.

Guy I read about on a knife forum was stabbed in the heart by his buffer. Not a beginner, either.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/tragic-loss-gordon-dempsey-killed-in-shop-accident.1230491/

[Roger Feeley]

My vote for most damaging/dangerous would be a portable hand planer. There are others but this one tops my list.
I have a power planer but I avoid using it unless I’m fully rested. I have this habit of letting my fingers run along the edge of the wood when I hand plane. No problem with a hand plane but if I do that with a power planer…

I don’t know if that qualifies the power planer as the most difficult but it’s certainly the most dangerous.

[Roger Feeley]

I have to relearn how to use my dovetail jigs every single time I drag one out..... As far as most dangerous goes, I have a 4" right angle grinder that I can fit a carbide tooth blade to. Super handy when I need it, but also terrifying.

Michael,
check out Tips From a Shipwright where Louie puts a 10” table saw blade on his angle grinder.

[Warren Lake]

nonsense on the people who dont use guards are arrogant or lazy or thinking people that don't use stuff are wimps. The ones i knew were just trained in the trade and went on for 50 -60 plus years doing stuff as they learned. They were the least arrogant people ive met in my life.

For the grinders i have one has a speed control and ill pick that one every time and dial in what I need for the work im doing. I ground tons of mortar out between bricks and with lower speed and a 1/4 diamond blade you can do pretty good work. Had i no speed control the thing would have been dangerous to use, even just the gyroscopic effect with it running fights you at times.

[Roger Feeley]

Table saw kick back that results in the work riding over the top of the blade and spinning back at high speed does a good job wrecking the work and potentially the worker as well.

The background for this question comes from having spent time in more than two shops that were in community environments. Anyone in the community could wander in and use the tools. The shop seniors were OK with very few rules and no rules at all. They were unfortunate situations.
Maurice,
I belong to Nova Labs, a maker space here in northern Virginia. They have a great system. In order to use a machine, you have to take a safety and skills class. Every member carry’s a proximity fob that they use to turn machines on. It won’t work on machines unless you have taken the class and gotten signed off. I only belong for the two 100w laser engravers so I can’t use their bandsaw even though it’s the same brand and model as mine.

[Michael Drew]

Michael,
check out Tips From a Shipwright where Louie puts a 10” table saw blade on his angle grinder.

Uhgggg...... That made me physically ill. I only use a 4" grinder with a 3.5" blade, and only when I just figure out a better way to make the cut. Sometimes, I use it when I'm working with aluminum, and that's when things get real sketchy.

[Richard Coers]

Me. I have been called both difficult and "a tool". I just play the senior citizen card and continue on.

[Edwin Santos]

I've never seen anyone say, "I did everything right and still had a table saw accident." I guess it must be possible, but generally it's the arrogant or lazy guys who think guards, push sticks, and featherboards are for wimps.

If you want to see some amazing accidents that seem to defy the laws of physics, Google "buffer accident." It is astonishing how clever a buffer can be. You can't trust common sense when it comes to a buffer. You really have to do what the experts tell you. You will not be able to anticipate all the buffer's tricks.

Guy I read about on a knife forum was stabbed in the heart by his buffer. Not a beginner, either.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/tragic-loss-gordon-dempsey-killed-in-shop-accident.1230491/

There are times when the operator may have done all the right things, but it turns out the wood had tension in it and pinched the blade or moved away from the fence creating a dangerous situation.
A splitter will help this a lot, but I think it's more important to pay really close attention and shut off the saw mid-cut if things are getting hinky.
Or do as I now do which is to perform all hardwood ripping at the bandsaw. I don't know of a way to tell that a particular board has case hardening or tension just by looking at it.

That buffer accident is frightening.

[Steve H Graham]

nonsense on the people who dont use guards are arrogant or lazy or thinking people that don't use stuff are wimps. The ones i knew were just trained in the trade and went on for 50 -60 plus years doing stuff as they learned. They were the least arrogant people ive met in my life.

There are plenty of people like the ones I described. If you want, I can dig up their comments and post them here.

As for people who went 60 years without bothering to learn about safety, what excuse is there for that? It's not like the information is classified.

[Warren Lake]

they learned safety in their teens when they did their apprenticeships. They did a lifetime on the machines they way they learned and they were fine.

There are people on here as well that don't use guards or minimal. The ones ive read were not arrogant or calling people wimps that use guards.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Maurice,
I belong to Nova Labs, a maker space here in northern Virginia. They have a great system. In order to use a machine, you have to take a safety and skills class. Every member carry’s a proximity fob that they use to turn machines on. It won’t work on machines unless you have taken the class and gotten signed off. I only belong for the two 100w laser engravers so I can’t use their bandsaw even though it’s the same brand and model as mine.

This is lovely to read about! Some of my Dads 19 grandchildren are taking an interest in his crumbling shop full of wonderful tools. Several of my nephews are looking to me for guidance about creating things with power tools.

[Steve H Graham]

they learned safety in their teens

Apparently, they did not. If they had, they would do things the right way. And everyone knows safety is something you have to keep up with. A person who thinks he learned it all 60 years ago is the kind of person who has unnecessary accidents. That's arrogance.

I've seen movies of people using machine tools without goggles. That was normal before people knew better. When knowledge improved, responsible people bought goggles. Men used to install and remove asbestos without respirators. There was a time when every table saw made left the factory without a guard. People are supposed to get smarter with time.

If you read up on safety, you'll learn that an awful lot of the people who have terrible accidents are arrogant old professionals who have decades of experience and think they know everything. People think it's always weekend warriors. That's completely wrong. Go to Youtube, and you'll see no end of professionals using angle grinders and table saws without guards. There's a Sawstop promotional video featuring a seven-fingered former professional.


They did a lifetime on the machines they way they learned and they were fine.

Except for the many who were maimed.

[Steve H Graham]

Michael,
check out Tips From a Shipwright where Louie puts a 10” table saw blade on his angle grinder.


Some genius marketed an angle grinder disk with chainsaw chisels around the rim. If you want to see something disturbing, look up a video about it made by a guy who calls himself Stumpy Nubs. Mr. Nubs thought the disk was a really stupid and dangerous idea, so he made a video to warn people. While he was using the disk for the video, the grinder took off, went through his glove, and mutilated his left hand. After that, surgery and rehab. The poor guy was trying to help people, and he got nailed by probability.

I'll save people the trouble of looking the video up.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xWHEWov8M

[Mark Hennebury]

Warren didn't say they didn't bother to learn about safety.


You belittle people with 50 or 60 years experience, and exactly how many years of woodworking experience do you have?

Maybe you think that you know more than you actually do.






There are plenty of people like the ones I described. If you want, I can dig up their comments and post them here.

As for people who went 60 years without bothering to learn about safety, what excuse is there for that? It's not like the information is classified.

[Steve H Graham]

He said they learned it half a century ago. That is not possible. You can't learn today's safety methods half a century ago.

Criticizing what I say is more appropriate than criticizing me. If what I say is wrong, it should be easy to disprove.

[Keegan Shields]

Not exactly woodworking, but according to the accident data, the most dangerous military pilot has ~3,000 hours of flight time and 5-10 years of experience. Older pilots with more experience usually have good safety practices. There aren’t many old pilots with poor safety practices. And the new pilots tend to follow the safe procedures that are taught.

Separately, everyone fights complacency when it comes to safety. No one is immune. Complacency kills.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Me. I have been called both difficult and "a tool". I just play the senior citizen card and continue on.

I too have been called a "Tool". The kids will eventually tell me what that means (not looking forward to learning the meaning).

[andy bessette]

This photo was taken just after moving my machines into the new shop. There are 3 table saws in the photo; none have guards. Will be celebrating my 79th birthday in less than 2 weeks. Still have all my fingers.

It is not guards that keep you safe--it is working safely.

https://i.postimg.cc/VNbnK2md/IMG-1269.jpg (https://postimg.cc/3yYkRSyT)

[Mark Hennebury]

I have worked at woodworking and metalworking for over 50 years, so yes I am one of those old guys "that thinks he knows everything" And you are one of those with ..... oh yeah , you didn't say did you, So I'll ask again, how many years experience? Telling me that I don't know what I'm doing. you are a joke.



He said they learned it half a century ago. That is not possible. You can't learn today's safety methods half a century ago.

Criticizing what I say is more appropriate than criticizing me. If what I say is wrong, it should be easy to disprove.

[Michael Drew]

I wear safety glasses when I'm using tools that might require their use. I do not use goggles unless they are needed. Goggles are for use when using a grinder or some other tool where you can expect things to be bouncing around and entering the eye at an angle. And even then, a face shield works better, as it won't fog up on you like goggles do.

I don't use guards. I'm neither arrogant or lazy. Suggesting I am, or others are, without fully understanding the "why" is a more accurate demonstration of arrogance. I use splitters, riving knifes, board buddies, feather boards, etc. Guards can actually create their own hazards. I also make sure my head's in the game before I use power tools. Stop, think, analyze what the task is and how to do it safely - then act.

Safety is not a device. It's a state of mind. Air bags won't help much at a 150mph.

[Alan Lightstone]

I've seen way too many patients with missing digits from table saws. Way too many. So, I guess, I'd have to put that at the top of the list.

Personally, I'd say it's the router, although a disc sander is what got me recently. And shapers - never bought one. They really do scare the crap out of me.

[Mike Cutler]

He said they learned it half a century ago. That is not possible. You can't learn today's safety methods half a century ago.

Criticizing what I say is more appropriate than criticizing me. If what I say is wrong, it should be easy to disprove.

Steve
I understand your position, but must disagree with your 1st statement.
I was 11 years old in 1970 when I first started using machinery and power tools in a classroom/ industrial environment.
The rules then, are no different than today. Here they are;
All machine guards in place.
No wearing of rings, watches, or exposed jewelry.
Long hair, this was the 60’s and 70’s, tied back in a ponytail and stuffed down your shirt.
No long sleeve shirts,
Shirts tucked in.
Safety goggles worn at all times. Face shields when operating the lathe.
Every machine had a qual card for it. Until you were signed off, you couldn’t use it. Period.

Between “metal shop”,and “wood shop”, I spent the next 6 years learning these machines, and how to operate them safely.
Routers were not a common tool yet, we used the shaper for most of what people are doing with a router. We had them, but they were used infrequently.
I work in an industrial environment today, at 63 years old, and the rules are essentially the same. The world hasn’t changed that much, and neither have the machines.

[Edward Weber]

I don't use guards. I'm neither arrogant or lazy. Suggesting I am, or others are, without fully understanding the "why" is a more accurate demonstration of arrogance. I use splitters, riving knifes, board buddies, feather boards, etc. Guards can actually create their own hazards. I also make sure my head's in the game before I use power tools. Stop, think, analyze what the task is and how to do it safely - then act.


I'm glad someone said this. Thanks

I have a few, NIB (new in box) "safety devices" that would be more of a hindrance than a help.
The giant birdcage that came with my lathe, the ridiculous guard that covers the chuck on some drill presses, and so on. Many "safety" devices are there only to meet obligation, not improve the safe operation of the tool. Knowing when something that is deemed "safe" is actually not, is something you should inherently know, or you really shouldn't be using the tool in the first place.

If you find yourself constantly distracted by something that is supposed to keep you safe, it might be time to do something about it.

[Steve H Graham]

I wear safety glasses when I'm using tools that might require their use. I do not use goggles unless they are needed. Goggles are for use when using a grinder or some other tool where you can expect things to be bouncing around and entering the eye at an angle. And even then, a face shield works better, as it won't fog up on you like goggles do.

I don't use guards. I'm neither arrogant or lazy. Suggesting I am, or others are, without fully understanding the "why" is a more accurate demonstration of arrogance. I use splitters, riving knifes, board buddies, feather boards, etc. Guards can actually create their own hazards. I also make sure my head's in the game before I use power tools. Stop, think, analyze what the task is and how to do it safely - then act.

Safety is not a device. It's a state of mind. Air bags won't help much at a 150mph.

You are representing my position in a very inaccurate way. You seem to think guards are all I'm talking about, when in fact failing to use guards is just an example I used. There are plenty of other stupid things overconfident people do around tools. Turning off wall switches instead of breakers when working on wiring. Using isocyanate paint without the proper lung and skin protection. Welding for long periods without sleeves. Working with heavy objects without safety-toe boots. Pulling stumps with nylon ropes. Attaching chains and tow straps above the level of a tractor's rear axle. Mounting bench grinder wheels without ringing them. Using cutoff wheels that have been dropped. Buffing inside corners. Hammering on mushroomed chisels. Running a chainsaw without ear protection.The list of stupid practices is extremely long, and yes, arrogance is one of the big reasons these things happen. Sure, there are times when you can't do things exactly right. How does that excuse the hundreds of thousands of experienced people who have thrown away grinder and saw guards as soon as they bought their tools? You know perfectly well that there are many, many pros who do things wrong every time, not just occasionally. And they walk or are carried into emergency rooms every day.

If you never use guards, you are part of the problem, not someone to give advice. It's bad enough if you're doing it alone, but if you're working with others, you're endangering them, too. A grinder disk can hit other people when it explodes, and someone other than you can run his hand through your table saw. Featherboards and riving knives are great, but kickbacks aren't the only problem with table saws. Plenty of people have had their hands pulled into them or simply slipped.

You also imply I think goggles are all that's needed for eye protection. Not true at all. I wear glasses and a face shield when using a wire knot wheel or a cutoff disk, and once I got wire in my eye anyway.

I didn't realize what I said would provoke people, but I should have, because the world is full of people who think reasonable safety measures are huge, unrealistic impositions. I still remember the folks who used to claim seat belts killed more people than they saved.

A buddy of mine used to say he wanted to ride my motorcycles. I told him no one who hadn't taken the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course was going near them. He tried to tell me he was an expert because he had ridden all his life (with no endorsement on his license). I asked him a simple question: "How do you turn a motorcycle?" He couldn't answer it. Just about no one who hasn't taken a course knows the correct answer, and this is just as true of experienced riders as it is of new ones. They don't know the proper way to sit at a traffic light. They don't know motorcycles cause hearing damage with or without loud pipes. They don't know what to do when they find themselves headed for a big bump at speed. They don't know what a decreasing-radius turn is. People often think they know a lot more than they do, because they've been lucky.

As for people who reject safety rules and never have injuries, that's actually normal and proves nothing at all. You measure danger by the people who get hurt, not the lucky ones who don't. After all, 85% of people who smoke cigarettes all their lives DON'T get lung cancer. It's the other 15% that prove smoking is stupid.

Experience is a great teacher, but education is better, because it helps you avoid bad experiences other people have had.

[Steve Demuth]

Uhgggg...... That made me physically ill. I only use a 4" grinder with a 3.5" blade, and only when I just figure out a better way to make the cut. Sometimes, I use it when I'm working with aluminum, and that's when things get real sketchy.

+1 on that. I just quit watching his series after that episode.

[Steve Demuth]

Well, the one in my shop that gives me the most difficulty is a Delta 31-255X Drum Sander. Not because it's particularly dangerous, or difficulat to understand or handle, but because it requires about an hour of maintenance for every half hour of productive use. Never met a machine so impossible to keep in fettle.

The scariest tools in the shop, though, are any of my handheld routers.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am hoping for a really good drum sander or a small wide belt sander as an early retirement present to myself. Reading these posts and thinking back, the router does rank high in wrecking projects.

[Michael Drew]

You are representing my position in a very inaccurate way. You seem to think guards are all I'm talking about, when in fact failing to use guards is just an example I used. There are plenty of other stupid things overconfident people do around tools. Turning off wall switches instead of breakers when working on wiring. Using isocyanate paint without the proper lung and skin protection. Welding for long periods without sleeves. Working with heavy objects without safety-toe boots. Pulling stumps with nylon ropes. Attaching chains and tow straps above the level of a tractor's rear axle. Mounting bench grinder wheels without ringing them. Using cutoff wheels that have been dropped. Buffing inside corners. Hammering on mushroomed chisels. Running a chainsaw without ear protection.The list of stupid practices is extremely long, and yes, arrogance is one of the big reasons these things happen. Sure, there are times when you can't do things exactly right. How does that excuse the hundreds of thousands of experienced people who have thrown away grinder and saw guards as soon as they bought their tools? You know perfectly well that there are many, many pros who do things wrong every time, not just occasionally. And they walk or are carried into emergency rooms every day.

If you never use guards, you are part of the problem, not someone to give advice. It's bad enough if you're doing it alone, but if you're working with others, you're endangering them, too. A grinder disk can hit other people when it explodes, and someone other than you can run his hand through your table saw. Featherboards and riving knives are great, but kickbacks aren't the only problem with table saws. Plenty of people have had their hands pulled into them or simply slipped.

You also imply I think goggles are all that's needed for eye protection. Not true at all. I wear glasses and a face shield when using a wire knot wheel or a cutoff disk, and once I got wire in my eye anyway.

I didn't realize what I said would provoke people, but I should have, because the world is full of people who think reasonable safety measures are huge, unrealistic impositions. I still remember the folks who used to claim seat belts killed more people than they saved.

A buddy of mine used to say he wanted to ride my motorcycles. I told him no one who hadn't taken the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course was going near them. He tried to tell me he was an expert because he had ridden all his life (with no endorsement on his license). I asked him a simple question: "How do you turn a motorcycle?" He couldn't answer it. Just about no one who hasn't taken a course knows the correct answer, and this is just as true of experienced riders as it is of new ones. They don't know the proper way to sit at a traffic light. They don't know motorcycles cause hearing damage with or without loud pipes. They don't know what to do when they find themselves headed for a big bump at speed. They don't know what a decreasing-radius turn is. People often think they know a lot more than they do, because they've been lucky.

As for people who reject safety rules and never have injuries, that's actually normal and proves nothing at all. You measure danger by the people who get hurt, not the lucky ones who don't. After all, 85% of people who smoke cigarettes all their lives DON'T get lung cancer. It's the other 15% that prove smoking is stupid.

Experience is a great teacher, but education is better, because it helps you avoid bad experiences other people have had.

There is simply too much to unpack there, and I'm not inclined to argue with you over semantics and words chosen.

I did not say I "never" use guards. I was referring to table saws. I should have been more clear. I have not found one that works well, and does not get in the way. I am however going to try an overhead guard for the new saw. Guards on other power tools, however, usually stay on my tools until I have to remove it for an unusual need.

There is a reason why I, and others took exception to your comments and inspired responses. You painted us with a wide brush - and that we are all arrogant or lazy, or both. What did you expect?

[Mark Hennebury]

This should be on the "time for some levity" thread.


You are representing my position in a very inaccurate way. You seem to think guards are all I'm talking about, when in fact failing to use guards is just an example I used. There are plenty of other stupid things overconfident people do around tools. Turning off wall switches instead of breakers when working on wiring. Using isocyanate paint without the proper lung and skin protection. Welding for long periods without sleeves. Working with heavy objects without safety-toe boots. Pulling stumps with nylon ropes. Attaching chains and tow straps above the level of a tractor's rear axle. Mounting bench grinder wheels without ringing them. Using cutoff wheels that have been dropped. Buffing inside corners. Hammering on mushroomed chisels. Running a chainsaw without ear protection.The list of stupid practices is extremely long, and yes, arrogance is one of the big reasons these things happen. Sure, there are times when you can't do things exactly right. How does that excuse the hundreds of thousands of experienced people who have thrown away grinder and saw guards as soon as they bought their tools? You know perfectly well that there are many, many pros who do things wrong every time, not just occasionally. And they walk or are carried into emergency rooms every day.

If you never use guards, you are part of the problem, not someone to give advice. It's bad enough if you're doing it alone, but if you're working with others, you're endangering them, too. A grinder disk can hit other people when it explodes, and someone other than you can run his hand through your table saw. Featherboards and riving knives are great, but kickbacks aren't the only problem with table saws. Plenty of people have had their hands pulled into them or simply slipped.

You also imply I think goggles are all that's needed for eye protection. Not true at all. I wear glasses and a face shield when using a wire knot wheel or a cutoff disk, and once I got wire in my eye anyway.

I didn't realize what I said would provoke people, but I should have, because the world is full of people who think reasonable safety measures are huge, unrealistic impositions. I still remember the folks who used to claim seat belts killed more people than they saved.

A buddy of mine used to say he wanted to ride my motorcycles. I told him no one who hadn't taken the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course was going near them. He tried to tell me he was an expert because he had ridden all his life (with no endorsement on his license). I asked him a simple question: "How do you turn a motorcycle?" He couldn't answer it. Just about no one who hasn't taken a course knows the correct answer, and this is just as true of experienced riders as it is of new ones. They don't know the proper way to sit at a traffic light. They don't know motorcycles cause hearing damage with or without loud pipes. They don't know what to do when they find themselves headed for a big bump at speed. They don't know what a decreasing-radius turn is. People often think they know a lot more than they do, because they've been lucky.

As for people who reject safety rules and never have injuries, that's actually normal and proves nothing at all. You measure danger by the people who get hurt, not the lucky ones who don't. After all, 85% of people who smoke cigarettes all their lives DON'T get lung cancer. It's the other 15% that prove smoking is stupid.

Experience is a great teacher, but education is better, because it helps you avoid bad experiences other people have had.

[Michael Schuch]

I often hear people talk about the dangers of Radial Arm Saws. I grew up learning woodworking from my father and the only stationary saw we had was a Delta Turret Arm radial arm saw so that is what I learned to use. I have never considered a RAS dangerous... but many do and I believe that they were never taught how to use one properly.

So my answer is the most dangerous machine in the shop is the one you don't know how to use properly!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I think it was Michael Shuch who pointed out the importance of a proper blade for the RSA. A non climber is on my list of urgent tool needs. Lack of common sense and lack of training seem to be a consensus.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You are representing my position in a very inaccurate way. You seem to think guards are all I'm talking about, when in fact failing to use guards is just an example I used. There are plenty of other stupid things overconfident people do around tools. Turning off wall switches instead of breakers when working on wiring. Using isocyanate paint without the proper lung and skin protection. Welding for long periods without sleeves. Working with heavy objects without safety-toe boots. Pulling stumps with nylon ropes. Attaching chains and tow straps above the level of a tractor's rear axle. Mounting bench grinder wheels without ringing them. Using cutoff wheels that have been dropped. Buffing inside corners. Hammering on mushroomed chisels. Running a chainsaw without ear protection.The list of stupid practices is extremely long, and yes, arrogance is one of the big reasons these things happen. Sure, there are times when you can't do things exactly right. How does that excuse the hundreds of thousands of experienced people who have thrown away grinder and saw guards as soon as they bought their tools? You know perfectly well that there are many, many pros who do things wrong every time, not just occasionally. And they walk or are carried into emergency rooms every day.

If you never use guards, you are part of the problem, not someone to give advice. It's bad enough if you're doing it alone, but if you're working with others, you're endangering them, too. A grinder disk can hit other people when it explodes, and someone other than you can run his hand through your table saw. Featherboards and riving knives are great, but kickbacks aren't the only problem with table saws. Plenty of people have had their hands pulled into them or simply slipped.

You also imply I think goggles are all that's needed for eye protection. Not true at all. I wear glasses and a face shield when using a wire knot wheel or a cutoff disk, and once I got wire in my eye anyway.

I didn't realize what I said would provoke people, but I should have, because the world is full of people who think reasonable safety measures are huge, unrealistic impositions. I still remember the folks who used to claim seat belts killed more people than they saved.

A buddy of mine used to say he wanted to ride my motorcycles. I told him no one who hadn't taken the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course was going near them. He tried to tell me he was an expert because he had ridden all his life (with no endorsement on his license). I asked him a simple question: "How do you turn a motorcycle?" He couldn't answer it. Just about no one who hasn't taken a course knows the correct answer, and this is just as true of experienced riders as it is of new ones. They don't know the proper way to sit at a traffic light. They don't know motorcycles cause hearing damage with or without loud pipes. They don't know what to do when they find themselves headed for a big bump at speed. They don't know what a decreasing-radius turn is. People often think they know a lot more than they do, because they've been lucky.

As for people who reject safety rules and never have injuries, that's actually normal and proves nothing at all. You measure danger by the people who get hurt, not the lucky ones who don't. After all, 85% of people who smoke cigarettes all their lives DON'T get lung cancer. It's the other 15% that prove smoking is stupid.

Experience is a great teacher, but education is better, because it helps you avoid bad experiences other people have had.

Steve, I just want to say what an wonderfully thoughtful and wise post this is. Several of the examples you cite were not known to me, and I learned new safety behaviors by reading about these hazards (which is proving your point: education is a better teacher than experience).

I can't believe anyone would argue with any of this.

[Mark Hennebury]

Listing a bunch of stupid things that people do that have nothing to do with the topic is simple trying to manipulate the conversation. Wall switches, Isocyanate, safety boots, welding, motor cycles...and the classic... seat belts Wow! amazing sh*t it's all just BS.

If you want to talk about shop safety, lets talk Facts about shop safety not BS.

I guess that you learned something during your career, maybe some of us woodworkers did to! worth considering , don't you think?
Old Steve here still hasn't told us how many years experience he has or how many tens of thousands of board foot of lumber he has dressed on a jointer, but you would take his advice; step back and think about that for a minute.





Steve, I just want to say what an wonderfully thoughtful and wise post this is. Several of the examples you cite were not known to me, and I learned new safety behaviors by reading about these hazards (which is proving your point: education is a better teacher than experience).

I can't believe anyone would argue with any of this.

[Greg Funk]

because the world is full of people who think reasonable safety measures are huge, unrealistic impositions.And this is the crux of the argument. What's reasonable for you might not be reasonable for an experienced woodworker. No different than any other activity. I'm not going to take a young child riding a bike in the city where I go because they lack experience. I'm also not going to follow the same safety measures a child would need to in order to remain safe.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Listing a bunch of stupid things that people do that have nothing to do with the topic is simple trying to manipulate the conversation. Wall switches, Isocyanate, safety boots, welding, motor cycles...and the classic... seat belts Wow! amazing sh*t it's all just BS.

If you want to talk about shop safety, lets talk Facts about shop safety not BS.

I guess that you learned something during your career, maybe some of us woodworkers did to! worth considering , don't you think?
Old Steve here still hasn't told us how many years experience he has or how many tens of thousands of board foot of lumber he has dressed on a jointer, but you would take his advice; step back and think about that for a minute.

Mark, having seen some of your machinery restoration, I have quite a lot of respect for your work - it's work I know I don't have the skill to do, and I admire it. If you'd be willing to take the time to explain what you're finding disagreeable, I'm sure I'd be far from the only person interested in learning from you. From your replies, I'm not sure what your disagreement is.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Dan,
People talk a lot of crap about safety!
They preach the "rules" like they personally received them from God.
They ignore the facts!
Safety is complicated, it's not about following some rules, it's about knowledge and experiences and calculations and margins and confidence and focus, it is far more the following some BS.

If you study wood and your understand it you know what you to expect from it.
If you study cutting tools and understand the relationship with the materials,
If you study machinery and understand it, then you know what you are doing and that knowledge gives you the confidence to analyze the variables of a situation and make judgements.

If you don't do those things and just blindly follow rules you will get hurt!

Living is dangerous, we all have to deal with danger, every day in everything, making judgements and having margins is how we survive.
You will never be safe, while you are alive.
So we live with a margin of safety, that is personal! it is personal safety, based on what you know and understand and can deal with.
It is never guarantied 100% never! You cannot predict everything, but the more you know the better decisions you can make for your safety.
Don't ever rely on someone else for your safety, learn enough to make your own choices.

Some Facts;
I have worked over 50 years, dressed tens of thousands of board feet of lumber over 24" jointers, 18" table saw blades' I have never had a guard on my jointer, never had a splitter of guard on the table-saw, I have worked long hours, all through the night, 24 hours round the clock, 44 hours one weekend, because I had to get a job done. The only injury that I have had is when the router speed control failed. I have used dozens or metalwork machines, lathes, bandsaws, tool and cutter grinders, surface grinders.

If you were to remove your preconceived ideas of safety, and faced the reality, I am probably one of the most safety conscious people on the planet. I have studied and understood the tools, materials and process, I have successfully calculated margins and developed procedures and left enough of a margin to keep me safe for 50 + plus years.

Those are Facts!

The problem is nobody cares about the facts!






Mark, having seen some of your machinery restoration, I have quite a lot of respect for your work - it's work I know I don't have the skill to do, and I admire it. If you'd be willing to take the time to explain what you're finding disagreeable, I'm sure I'd be far from the only person interested in learning from you. From your replies, I'm not sure what your disagreement is.

[Jerry Bruette]

Hi Dan,
People talk a lot of crap about safety!
They preach the "rules" like they personally received them from God.
They ignore the facts!
Safety is complicated, it's not about following some rules, it's about knowledge and experiences and calculations and margins and confidence and focus, it is far more the following some BS.

If you study wood and your understand it you know what you to expect from it.
If you study cutting tools and understand the relationship with the materials,
If you study machinery and understand it, then you know what you are doing and that knowledge gives you the confidence to analyze the variables of a situation and make judgements.

If you don't do those things and just blindly follow rules you will get hurt!

Living is dangerous, we all have to deal with danger, every day in everything, making judgements and having margins is how we survive.
You will never be safe, while you are alive.
So we live with a margin of safety, that is personal! it is personal safety, based on what you know and understand and can deal with.
It is never guarantied 100% never! You cannot predict everything, but the more you know the better decisions you can make for your safety.
Don't ever rely on someone else for your safety, learn enough to make your own choices.

Some Facts;
I have worked over 50 years, dressed tens of thousands of board feet of lumber over 24" jointers, 18" table saw blades' I have never had a guard on my jointer, never had a splitter of guard on the table-saw, I have worked long hours, all through the night, 24 hours round the clock, 44 hours one weekend, because I had to get a job done. The only injury that I have had is when the router speed control failed. I have used dozens or metalwork machines, lathes, bandsaws, tool and cutter grinders, surface grinders.

If you were to remove your preconceived ideas of safety, and faced the reality, I am probably one of the most safety conscious people on the planet. I have studied and understood the tools, materials and process, I have successfully calculated margins and developed procedures and left enough of a margin to keep me safe for 50 + plus years.

Those are Facts!

The problem is nobody cares about the facts!

Kept my nose out of this conversation until now.

Would you care to tell Dan exactly how you were using that router when it bit you?

[andy bessette]

Listing a bunch of stupid things that people do that have nothing to do with the topic is simple trying to manipulate the conversation. Wall switches, Isocyanate, safety boots, welding, motor cycles...and the classic... seat belts Wow! amazing sh*t it's all just BS.

If you want to talk about shop safety, lets talk Facts about shop safety not BS...

This. It is baloney.

[andrew whicker]

Per Sawmill's everlasting Safety discussion novellas, 'difficult' somehow became 'safe'. Anywho...

Woodworking: I'd agree with router. They are super picky on grain direction and cutting direction. I have a hard time creating finish quality surfaces.

Construction: I can have a hard time with quality difficult cuts with a worm drive circular saw (beveled).

Metal: Probably a cutting disc on an angle grinder. Have to be careful which quadrant you're cutting with.


The most difficult OVERALL TOOLS are handheld / powerless tools. Hand planes, chisels, saws, etc.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Jerry,
Sure I will explain, but Dan probable already knows as I posted before.

First thing is that I wasn't actually using it when it "bit me." I was going to use it.
I was getting ready to do some tool post grinding as I have done many times in the past.
I do both internal and external grinding. with different size grinding wheels and the router speed set to suit the wheel and the job.
I had the router mounted in a custom made- bracket and bolted to the cross-slide on my metal lathe.
I was going to do some "tool-post grinding" and had a grinding wheel mounted in the router collet.
I set the dial on the router to the slowest speed #1 on the dial. 8,000 rpm. Turned the router on, The router ran smoothly at that speed and I sorted a few parts on the bench next to the lathe while the router warmed up as I usually do.
The router speed violently, loudly and without warning shot up to 24,000 rpm causing the grinding wheel to explode, Startled by the noise, I turned toward the router and a chunk of grinding wheel went through my face.

I use routers for machining wood, Aluminum Brass, Copper, Steel, Cast iron, Stainless steel, Fibre-Glass, Plexi-glass, hardboard, mdf, plywood, Plastic laminate, rubber sheet, etc. and when I worked in a counter-top shop we routed solid surface Corian counters all day long. And there are probably a bunch of other products that i can't think of at this moment.

Of all the internal and external tool-post grinding is by fare the most delicate on the router as it is used only for polishing a few tenths off.
Below is an example of ID grinding and brass routing.

If you have any more questions or comments, I would love to hear them.

489042 489043 489044489045489046




Kept my nose out of this conversation until now.

Would you care to tell Dan exactly how you were using that router when it bit you?

[Jerry Bruette]

What was the RPM rating of the wheel you were using.

Did you take legal action against Makita?

[Curt Harms]

I have a saw blade that fits a small grinder too. I tried it for cutting off cantilever floor joists that protruded from a house to create a balcony. I hope to never use it again. I have wondered about the chainsaw tooth carving wheels for a grinder. A coworker who is a skilled sculptor developed carpal tunnel and had to quit with the chisels and mallet. I showed him my grinder and catalogue images of the carving discs. His response "No way man!"

488688

Lately I use a multitool when have to cut things like protruding floor joists.

How difficult was it to control? That was my concern when I first saw pics - I've never used one. At the time there was a disc with a number of curved ridges which looked like it would be easier to control. I just did an Amazon search and didn't see it. I saw a bunch of discs but they looked pretty aggressive/difficult to control as well.

[Karl Loeblein]

Maurice,
I belong to Nova Labs, a maker space here in northern Virginia. They have a great system. In order to use a machine, you have to take a safety and skills class. Every member carry’s a proximity fob that they use to turn machines on. It won’t work on machines unless you have taken the class and gotten signed off. I only belong for the two 100w laser engravers so I can’t use their bandsaw even though it’s the same brand and model as mine.

Roger, can you share anything more about the proximity fob like make/model and how it’s wired into the equipment? Also, can someone with training still get seriously hurt and then try to sue the club’s leaders for negligence? I’d like to open a makers space when I retire for woodworkers, but worry that someone could sue the LLC leaders (me) and get to my retirement savings.

[Mark Hennebury]

1. I am not sure what the rpm of the wheel was.
2. Yes.

Makita has the grinding wheel and router.




What was the RPM rating of the wheel you were using.

Did you take legal action against Makita?

[Greg Funk]

Roger, can you share anything more about the proximity fob like make/model and how it’s wired into the equipment? Also, can someone with training still get seriously hurt and then try to sue the club’s leaders for negligence? I’d like to open a makers space when I retire for woodworkers, but worry that someone could sue the LLC leaders (me) and get to my retirement savings.Yes they can sue you for negligence. Whether they'd win is another question. You would be wise to carry liability insurance.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Thanks for the reply, Mark.

As you said, risk calculus is personal. I would never work 24hrs/day (or even 10 hrs/day) as I know I'd get fatigued and work less safely. I see parallels to trucking or airlines - if those industries have drawn on 100 years of experience to conclude that "long hours" are dangerous, I feel compelled to benefit from that knowledge. But at the same time, there are physicians working 24hr shifts, even when evidence would clearly show the dangers of that, so there must be some different calculus going on, there.

I'm still not sure what the disagreement is, though. Your posts about your grinder accident have caused me to appreciate the risk of grinders in a way I hadn't considered, before - I am much more cognizant about wearing a full-face shield, now, directly as a result of the education you provided. Not to speak for him, but that's how I read Steve's post, as well - that it's much easier to learn to appreciate that danger via education vs experience.

[Edwin Santos]

As you said, risk calculus is personal. I would never work 24hrs/day (or even 10 hrs/day) as I know I'd get fatigued and work less safely. I see parallels to trucking or airlines - if those industries have drawn on 100 years of experience to conclude that "long hours" are dangerous, I feel compelled to benefit from that knowledge.



Hi Dan,
I don't have a dog in any safety argument going on here and I am not pointing my comments at anyone in particular, but I think you touched on something very important that we don't talk about a lot, namely the effect of fatigue.

I used to work in a hospital, and one of the pulmonary physicians was a sleep expert. One day he was telling me that functional MRI has revealed that sleep deprivation (or simply fatigue) has essentially the same effect on the brain as intoxication.
Of course, there are varying degrees i.e being heavily intoxicated is not the same as being mildly fatigued. However according to Dr. M, being mildly fatigued is comparable to being mildly intoxicated. The point being that working with dangerous tools when fatigued is not a whole lot different than working with dangerous tools when drinking, which I know we all agree is reckless even for the most experienced among us.

So I am a big advocate of putting the tools down when you realize you are tired, and even setting limits. I know woodworkers who will not work after a certain hour for this reason. One artisan woodworker mentor will not set tight delivery deadlines because he believes the pressure invariably translates to a safety hazard in his shop. This could translate to other impairments to state of mind. For example, another accomplished woodworker I know suffered the death of her spouse, and made a difficult decision to stay out of the shop for about six weeks simply because her state of mind itself was a safety hazard and she knew she could not fully concentrate. I really respected her for that. Has anyone besides me ever gotten so frustrated with something that was going wrong that it proved better to put the tools down and come back later with a cooler head?

And I don't believe any level of experience or expertise blunts the fatigue effect. An impairment is still happening. Self assessment is very important.
I would go so far as to say this is a more important issue than table saw vs. RAS, Sawstop, guard or no guard, splitter or no splitter, etc.

Respectfully, Edwin

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Dan,

Thank you.

We can all learn from others experience. This is an oft quoted phrase, but generally meant to imply, learning from some else's mistakes, not from how someone else has avoided mistakes.

I like facts; I quoted facts about how I have worked, how long and the results. No one has asked how did you manage to avoid injury. They don't ever in these discussions, they just dismiss your 50 years experience, call you reckless, ignorant, lazy, overconfident and apparently astronomically lucky.

If you want some reality ask how many people on this site have had accidents on their jointer with or without a functioning blade guard? See what the results are.

If you want to see how many people get injured with routers using standard router bits, do a google search. Lots of nasty accidents.

Just for fun ask who has the most table-saw accidents, my guess is Sawstop owners. Of course they don't care because they don't get hurt. But it should tell you something about people and their approach to safety being directly related to the perceived threat.



Thanks for the reply, Mark.

As you said, risk calculus is personal. I would never work 24hrs/day (or even 10 hrs/day) as I know I'd get fatigued and work less safely. I see parallels to trucking or airlines - if those industries have drawn on 100 years of experience to conclude that "long hours" are dangerous, I feel compelled to benefit from that knowledge. But at the same time, there are physicians working 24hr shifts, even when evidence would clearly show the dangers of that, so there must be some different calculus going on, there.

I'm still not sure what the disagreement is, though. Your posts about your grinder accident have caused me to appreciate the risk of grinders in a way I hadn't considered, before - I am much more cognizant about wearing a full-face shield, now, directly as a result of the education you provided. Not to speak for him, but that's how I read Steve's post, as well - that it's much easier to learn to appreciate that danger via education vs experience.

[Jeff Roltgen]

"Most difficult power tool"
In my shop: Edgebander. I realize most hobbyists don't venture into that territory, but in terms of complexity and completing numerous operations simultaneously, it is absolute chaos.

- Heat/apply appropriate amount of glue. Is the glue pot clean? Are you using the right type of glue? Is the applicator clean and dispensing the proper amount of glue?
- Conveyor / pressure roller: adjusted to right height for stock? Roller clean and applying enough pressure?
-End trimmer - cutting flush? Too soon? (rip off, try again), Too late? (manually trim flush)
- edge trimmers - sharp? Cutting clean? Set to right depth of cut and tweaked for thickness of edge banding being applied?
- Buffers - running at all? Reservoir filled with proper solvent? Buffing wheels in good shape?

Fuss, fuss, fuss.

It's a machine that's expected to push out a ready to assemble, perfectly clean, dressed edge. Can take hours or even days to bring a neglected machine back to life. Cheap, entry level units like mine, ($10k retail) can just barely do it, and seem to throw twists/hiccups regardless how much care/prep went into setup for the run. No, I don't want to do enough edge banding to justify a new $35-$75,000 machine, so I'm stuck doing an hour or two of manual clean-up/dressing of "completed" parts every time. But you can't be in business without one.
No other machine in the building gives me as much cussing grief as the edge bander.

The definition of difficult.

As for the safety debate, perhaps a new thread is in order.

Safety is not synonymous with difficult, IMHO.

jeff

[Jerry Bruette]

1. I am not sure what the rpm of the wheel was.
2. Yes.

Makita has the grinding wheel and router.

Did you not know the speed rating at the time of use or you're not sure because Makita has it and you can't verify?

Having pulled a few all nighters my self and knowing what I did to keep my head straight what are your methods?

[Jerry Bruette]

Hi Dan,
I don't have a dog in any safety argument going on here and I am not pointing my comments at anyone in particular, but I think you touched on something very important that we don't talk about a lot, namely the effect of fatigue.

I used to work in a hospital, and one of the pulmonary physicians was a sleep expert. One day he was telling me that functional MRI has revealed that sleep deprivation (or simply fatigue) has essentially the same effect on the brain as intoxication.

Respectfully, Edwin

Have an honest conversation with anyone who has sleep apnea and they can tell you about the effects of sleep deprivation.

[Mark Hennebury]

Jerry your interest in me is a little concerning.
My post held a reminder that you cannot foresee all of the dangers that lurk.
The router speed control cannot be trusted, and a malfunctioning speed control can cause you some pain. Your welcome.

Ref; Methods for dealing with all nighters; Stay awake!



Did you not know the speed rating at the time of use or you're not sure because Makita has it and you can't verify?

Having pulled a few all nighters my self and knowing what I did to keep my head straight what are your methods?

[Jerry Bruette]

Jerry your interest in me is a little concerning.
My post held a reminder that you cannot foresee all of the dangers that lurk.
The router speed control cannot be trusted, and a malfunctioning speed control can cause you some pain. Your welcome.

Ref; Methods for dealing with all nighters; Stay awake!

Mark, trust me I'm nothing to be concerned about and it's not really an interest in you but in your methods.

I went back and reread some of the posts, there was definitely some name calling and a few not so nice things being implied. You and some other members defended yourselves.

I, like you, also have a background in metal working. Trained as a machinist in the Navy and have held a millwright journeymans card for 30 years. During the training for both trades we were always taught to use the proper tool for the task and to use the tool in the proper way. That way you can greatly reduce any harm to you, the machinery and the tools.

The only reason I'm concerned with some peoples methods is that people that come to this website looking for advice and instruction on how to perform a process on a machine they are not familiar with may get advice that doesn't fit their skill level. I personally have never operated a jointer in my life. But if I come here and read some threads about jointing I may say "don't need no stinking guard" only to find out that my not having 50 years of experience jointing boards is going to end badly.

I also understand that if the only person you have to answer to is yourself your comfort level of safety standards, written or implied, are different than people who work for a large corporation that is governed by OSHA or the equivalent agency in your country. So if I'm amazed that you use a router for toolpost grinding and milling on the lathe instead of a toolpost grinder and a milling machine please don't be offended.

I will say that you have done some very impressive work and I would some day like to work to the level of many of the members here. In the meantime if I come across as some type of safety nut please excuse me ...it's just the way I've been trained.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The problem that took ms a while to overcome with the belt sander was coarse sandpaper tracks that were left behind while flattening a face frame or the panel of a raised panel door. They are invisible until you think you are done and have moved on to staining. Eventually I learned to work more accurately and coarse sandpaper was no longer needed. I am little behind on reading all of the injury and safety posts. Dad did have a very painful injury when the belt sander caught on his jeans and rolled the fleshy part of his thigh up in-between the back wheel and the case of the machine. It was one of those big old Rockwell's that look like a locomotive.

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[Mark Hennebury]

Jerry,
I had my training in school shop class in the late 60's in England. We had a woodshop and a metal shop.
The rest I figured out on my own.
Woodworking I started with handtools and quickly progressed up to machinery, then and up to big-ass machinery and automatic machinery.
My first jointer was a delta 6", my second was a w. Klein and sons 24". I bought old machines and fixed the up. the best way to understand a machine in my book.
I am a tinkerer by nature, I need to know how things work. I spent endless days and sleepless nights trying to understand cutting tools and how they function with the material. I bought 2000lb tool and cutter grinders and experimented with various tool geometry in a desire to know what and how they work, I have studied wood and wood structure so I have an understanding of it's nature. I have designed cutting tools, and built automatic machinery. I have owned jointers, thicknessers, shapers, bandsaws, Automatic mortisers, automatic tenoners, chop-saws, all types of sanders, and supersurfacers and lathes. I have rebuilt dozens of machines and owned a lot of metalwork machines, I currently own a lathe, surface grinders and a milling machine, I did own a Bridgeport mill for many years. I have used dozens of grinders from pencil, die grinders, disk grinders, bench grinders, tool and cutter grinders, surface grinders, straight knife grinders, ( manual, automatic and CNC)

The first person that I saw injured in a shop was in the metal shop in England, one of my classmates cut off his finger on the metal bandsaw. A good lesson for the rest of us in the class.

If I choose not to use a guard on my jointer, it is because that is the way that I feel the safest. I trust my machine, I know how it works and what it will do, I understand the material and the cutting process and I have control of the wood, I have a process, I check and clean the wood, i sight down it, so see what I am dealing with, have my safety glasses, dust mask and earplugs, I roll my sleeves up, I make sure that my work area is clean, I don't want anything in my way, including a guard. I focus because I am acutely aware of the danger. Starting up a 24" jointer will get your attention. For the most part I use my hands to control the wood, I have places that I put my fingers and ways that I hold the wood, this is thought out and planed, and not haphazard. I know were my fingers are. I did some work for a surgeon many years back, he told me a story about a man that ran his hand over a jointer and filleted all of the bones out of it. I have no desire to do the same. I have a system that works for me and i have have the focus, discipline and commitment to follow my "rules" My "rules" are my way, they don't have numbers like " never get closer than 4" to a cutter" My way is to understand what you are doing and adapt it to suit the situation at the time. If I need to get up close and personal to a cutter, I have to make a judgement call, and make a decision as to whether there is a reasonable chance of success. It's all down to knowing as much about what you are doing as you can and your confidence in being able to do it.

I love using the jointer. I don't understand people who say they find it boring, or the chop the top off their finger by dragging it across the cutterhead, not thinking, wasn't paying attention. Maybe its because they have a guard on that they take using a jointer so nonchalant.

I am a safety nut! Most people just don't get it.

If I was to offer advice; don't trust anything that I say, or anyone else, make sure that you know what you are doing.

Safety comes in different forms, commercial shop safety is a different animal than personal safety.

When your a kid your parents are responsible for your safety.
When you are an adult you take on that responsibility yourself.

If you copy people without understanding what you are doing, you will get hurt!
If you follow others rules without understanding them, you will get hurt.

I can have an accident any day. The older I get the higher the probability that I will, that's life.

The workshop is a dangerous place.








Mark, trust me I'm nothing to be concerned about and it's not really an interest in you but in your methods.

I went back and reread some of the posts, there was definitely some name calling and a few not so nice things being implied. You and some other members defended yourselves.

I, like you, also have a background in metal working. Trained as a machinist in the Navy and have held a millwright journeymans card for 30 years. During the training for both trades we were always taught to use the proper tool for the task and to use the tool in the proper way. That way you can greatly reduce any harm to you, the machinery and the tools.

The only reason I'm concerned with some peoples methods is that people that come to this website looking for advice and instruction on how to perform a process on a machine they are not familiar with may get advice that doesn't fit their skill level. I personally have never operated a jointer in my life. But if I come here and read some threads about jointing I may say "don't need no stinking guard" only to find out that my not having 50 years of experience jointing boards is going to end badly.

I also understand that if the only person you have to answer to is yourself your comfort level of safety standards, written or implied, are different than people who work for a large corporation that is governed by OSHA or the equivalent agency in your country. So if I'm amazed that you use a router for toolpost grinding and milling on the lathe instead of a toolpost grinder and a milling machine please don't be offended.

I will say that you have done some very impressive work and I would some day like to work to the level of many of the members here. In the meantime if I come across as some type of safety nut please excuse me ...it's just the way I've been trained.

[Kevin Jenness]

When it comes to safety there is no substitute for paying attention.
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[Warren Lake]

pay attention comes after knowing what you are doing. Enough posts on here over the years of people paying attention that were hurt because they didnt know that what they were doing was unsafe.

[Edward Weber]

You need to know the capabilities and limitations of your equipment. You should really have a pretty in depth knowledge of all the tools you use before you turn them on unsupervised.
The more you know about the tools and the wood you're using, the safer you'll be, period.

[Tom Bussey]

People say shapers but I do not really see much difference in a shaper and a router table. I wonder how many time I have been sliced by a sharp chisel that is just laying on the bench, that I wasn't paying attention to.

[Warren Lake]

router table is a toy.

The shaper was the most dangerous but that changed when people stopped using the different generations of free cutters. Slip edge, serrated edge. At that point we are talking projectiles and ive been around that twice when that has happened. Corrugated came after serrated edge and was safer.

Labelling any machine depends on what you are doing, making a 30 foot gothic window with huge honking old school knives is another level. In one shop the old guy ran there was one large room with two shaper operators who worked alone. One of them eventually quit to do something safer and become a cop. Now a days with all the punk ass kids that have guns and shapers going to insert and safer tooling he be better to have stayed a shaper operator.

[Mark Brewer]

As most all have mentioned, the tool you do not know how to use safely and correctly.
Working in aviation maintenance and production my career, plus military, seen bad stuff happen with out proper knowledge, etc….

[Mark Hennebury]

Jointer accidents are all too prevalent among woodworkers using "safety" gear, but not having developed a safe process or the discipline to follow it.
All of the gear, safety guard, safety grippers. Warnings on the safety guard, and these people still got hurt. Even the self proclaimed experts with hundreds of thousands of followers.

Just using safety equipment won't protect you, it may in fact give you a false sense of security and make you more likely to get injured.


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[andrew whicker]

Oh no, did he lose 4 fingers??

[Mark Hennebury]

Yes.

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Oh no, did he lose 4 fingers??

[Mark Hennebury]

In an alternate universe, one where facts, logic and reasoning prevailed, people with 50 years experience of using a jointer without injury would receive some respect. Maybe people would humbly ask to be aloud the honor to observe and learn. And those with no experience, just talk, would be ignored for the fools that they are.

[Mark Hennebury]

This belongs here.
https://9gag.com/gag/aoKNZNe

[Alan Lightstone]

Having worked in trauma for 35 years, and seen all sorts of "interesting" accidents, I'd have to say it's the organ between your ears that's the most dangerous, or can be.

Arrogance has much to do with this. Seen it in medicine all too much. People who thought they knew better, doing things they really didn't know how to do.

I once went to a Driving Safety course with my son who was just learning how to drive. It was taught by Arie Luyendyk, a two-time Indy 500 winner. He asked everyone to fill out a survey of which one question was how do you rate your driving abilities, from 1-10. Now I at the time had an open wheel driving license, and have raced everything from Indy Lights cars to Lamborghinis and Ferraris over 200mph on track. I gave myself a 7.

About half of the participants gave themselves a 10. Arie said he was an 8.

Arrogance and over-confidence can and does kill and severely injure. These tools aren't toys. Being a city boy, it was eye-opening for me to move to the Midwest and take care of all those farmers who disabled the safety provisions of their large tools/machinery. They never stalled when they ate up the farmer. Truly frightening.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I was almost killed by a shaper that someone else set up wrong. It threw a cutter that hit me in the chest. Shapers are ominous, hard to set up properly, and require a lot of knowledge to use- such as proper speed for cutter, proper feed rate, how to avoid tear-out, etc.

I have a shaper with sliding table and a power feeder- well worth the extra $.

[Warren Lake]

its not arrogance its ignorance. Never taught and bought a thing not knowing the story. Find out after it happens.

Ill leave the car example out if you never driven slalom then you neither know what you or your car can or cant do.

Malcolm that's the heaviest Ive heard so far. Been around twice when knives were thrown, no one hit. No one sets up my machines.

What type of head and cutter? They started us on Serrated edge split collar. Have bevel with no serrations as well but don't use it.

Id like you to pick my lottery numbers next time I'm buying some.

[Mark Hennebury]

Yeah, I think that to be a qualified driving instructor you should know how to steer both left and right.

[Ron Citerone]

I have often wondered, in the future what woodworking will look like, and if people then will wonder why humans were even allowed to use present day woodworking machines.:confused::eek:

[Greg Quenneville]

So Indy drivers don’t qualify then? :)

I work in aviation, flying for 52 years, professionally for 50.

If we were still crashing airplanes at the rate we did in the 1970’s there would be a smoking crater every 6 days. The airplanes are safer (analogous to better guards, power feeders, better tooling, saw stop etc). The single biggest advance though has been in better procedures, better compliance, better attitudes. Better knowledge about how our perceptions can be faulty, and about how distractions, fatigue and haste can all kill.

I try to bring those attitudes to my hobby shop, but sometimes I don’t know what I don’t know and then ignorance becomes the petard upon which I am hoist.

Anyway…understanding the surprise modes of my tools has been a long process of reading and making small mistakes and trying to learn from other people's mistakes.

[Mark Hennebury]

Once I had a car that pulled to the left all the time, I think it was because someone had hit the curb once. :)

Safety is a combination of things and not a simple as putting on a guard.

Safety is complex: it is about knowledge, planning, procedures, experience, confidence, commitment, focus, discipline, human nature and luck and probably a few more things that I didn't think of.
And it is different for everyone!

Seeing people that don't know what they are doing, but do it with safety guards, is a lot more scary to me than seeing people that do know what they are doing, doing it without safety guards.

We could all learn a lot about safety from Alex.

You don't have to take The same route as Alex, but Whatever route you choose do it like Alex.

Alex knows that he is one wrong move away from death. He knows what he is doing, he knows the dangers, he has trained, he has experience, knowledge, he has planned, he has a process, he has discipline and he has focus and commitment; If only we could do woodwork like Alex. His mind is focused on the next move, nothing else exists! One move at a time! no past, no future, just the present moment! That Is safety!

You may not agree with his choices, but we all have one life to live and should live it as we see fit. Some people are overweight, some underweight, some smoke some do sports, some go for a Sunday drive, or ride a bicycle on the road, all can get you killed!

It is simplistic to think safety is about just push sticks and guards.
When people have all of the safety gear and still have accidents, people say "oh, anyone can make a mistake, have a lapse of concentration, bad luck etc."
But when someone says I haven't used safety guards and haven't had an accident if 50 years, no-one ever asks how the F**k did you manage that! Because it doesn't align with their simplistic view that anything named "safety" means that you are safe. They simply dismiss it as "you have just been lucky" and your luck will run out someday' almost like they want it to happen to prove that they are right.
To say that a 50 year safety record is luck is absurd! Yet it is said all of the time.

Human nature is never factored in to safety.
When the machine guard is on, the machine operators guard is off. That's why people that use safety guards have so many accidents....human nature.

Therein lies the dilemma; how do you improve machine safety, without diminishing the operators vigilance.

Sawstop is the way forward; make everything so operators don't need to pay attention; they don't need to do research or have any knowledge, they can stick their hands into machines and not get hurt, drive their cars into walls and not get hurt, ask questions of the great google God and get answers, they really don't need to know or understand anything.

Alex is a dinosaur; a breed that is disappearing from this planet; a person that takes his life and safety in his hands, a person that accepts responsibility for his knowledge and actions. A person that lives his life on his terms.


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[andy bessette]

...We could all learn a lot about safety from Alex...

Who is Alex?

[Mark Hennebury]

Alex Honnold
https://youtu.be/urRVZ4SW7WU



Who is Alex?

[mreza Salav]

Once I had a car that pulled to the left all the time, I think it was because someone had hit the curb once. :)

Safety is a combination of things and not a simple as putting on a guard.

Safety is complex: it is about knowledge, planning, procedures, experience, confidence, commitment, focus, discipline, human nature and luck and probably a few more things that I didn't think of.
And it is different for everyone!

Seeing people that don't know what they are doing, but do it with safety guards, is a lot more scary to me than seeing people that do know what they are doing, doing it without safety guards.

We could all learn a lot about safety from Alex.

You don't have to take The same route as Alex, but Whatever route you choose do it like Alex.

Alex knows that he is one wrong move away from death. He knows what he is doing, he knows the dangers, he has trained, he has experience, knowledge, he has planned, he has a process, he has discipline and he has focus and commitment; If only we could do woodwork like Alex. His mind is focused on the next move, nothing else exists! One move at a time! no past, no future, just the present moment! That Is safety!

You may not agree with his choices, but we all have one life to live and should live it as we see fit. Some people are overweight, some underweight, some smoke some do sports, some go for a Sunday drive, or ride a bicycle on the road, all can get you killed!

It is simplistic to think safety is about just push sticks and guards.
When people have all of the safety gear and still have accidents, people say "oh, anyone can make a mistake, have a lapse of concentration, bad luck etc."
But when someone says I haven't used safety guards and haven't had an accident if 50 years, no-one ever asks how the F**k did you manage that! Because it doesn't align with their simplistic view that anything named "safety" means that you are safe. They simply dismiss it as "you have just been lucky" and your luck will run out someday' almost like they want it to happen to prove that they are right.
To say that a 50 year safety record is luck is absurd! Yet it is said all of the time.

Human nature is never factored in to safety.
When the machine guard is on, the machine operators guard is off. That's why people that use safety guards have so many accidents....human nature.

Therein lies the dilemma; how do you improve machine safety, without diminishing the operators vigilance.

Sawstop is the way forward; make everything so operators don't need to pay attention; they don't need to do research or have any knowledge, they can stick their hands into machines and not get hurt, drive their cars into walls and not get hurt, ask questions of the great google God and get answers, they really don't need to know or understand anything.

Alex is a dinosaur; a breed that is disappearing from this planet; a person that takes his life and safety in his hands, a person that accepts responsibility for his knowledge and actions. A person that lives his life on his terms.


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I have respect for your work and experience but to make role model of Alex is absolutely irresponsible. Yes, one has to educate themselves with proper use of tools and way of work but no level of experience or knowledge relaces using safety methods and features that have proven to reduce injuries.
Anybody who claims i have xyz years of experience without having any injuries proves absolutely nothing about whether the method they have used is safe or not.
I had a friend who was a professional climber an use all the safety gear, he still died too young of a fall....

[Kevin Jenness]

There are old climbers and bold climbers, but very few old, bold climbers.

[Jerry Bruette]

I have respect for your work and experience but to make role model of Alex is absolutely irresponsible. Yes, one has to educate themselves with proper use of tools and way of work but no level of experience or knowledge relaces using safety methods and features that have proven to reduce injuries.
Anybody who claims i have xyz years of experience without having any injuries proves absolutely nothing about whether the method they have used is safe or not.
I had a friend who was a professional climber an use all the safety gear, he still died too young of a fall....

You've said it more eloquently than I could've and would've.

[Edward Weber]

Sawstop is the way forward; make everything so operators don't need to pay attention; they don't need to do research or have any knowledge, they can stick their hands into machines and not get hurt, drive their cars into walls and not get hurt, ask questions of the great google God and get answers, they really don't need to know or understand anything.


While I agree with the majority of your post, this paragraph is what's wrong with woodworking today. IMHO
You shouldn't sacrifice knowledge for safety.
The "I don't need to know all that stuff" crowd scares me to death.

[Mark Hennebury]

Hi Mreza,

"but to make role model of Alex is absolutely irresponsible."
Can you explain why?

"Yes, one has to educate themselves with proper use of tools and way of work but no level of experience or knowledge relaces using safety methods and features that have proven to reduce injuries."
That one you need to explain as well.
Why have the people in the videos that i posted have injuries while using the safety methods and features that have proven to reduce injuries?

"Anybody who claims i have xyz years of experience without having any injuries proves absolutely nothing about whether the method they have used is safe or not."
Exactly how does one prove that a method is safe? Apparently 50 years of testing and 100% success rate is not the way. You apparently have a higher standard, please explain. I fail to understand how you can dismiss that kind of factual data like it is meaningless, hardly seems rational to me. At the same time you ignore all the fingers being chopped off by people using the safety guards. And apparently never question why. The only place that I see this kind of absurd thinking is on woodworking forums.

"I had a friend who was a professional climber an use all the safety gear, he still died too young of a fall."
I am sorry for your loss, I have lost quite a few friends myself. We all make our choices, most if not all contain a level of danger, there is not much that we can do that is without danger.

For the record;
I have never told anyone how they should work!
I have never told anyone to use guards or not to use guards!
I have told people to educate themselves and make their own informed decisions on their safety.
I have told people not to take my word or anyone else's , get informed.
I have defended the way that I work, when It has been attacked, as is my right!

You get one life, live it how you see fit.

Humans have always pushed the boundaries in every way, many that achieve great things serve to inspire the rest of us, and by studying their efforts and achievements we can take valuable lessons that we can use in our own endeavors. Even if we are doing nothing like our hero's we can find nuggets of wisdom in their philosophy, discipline, attitude, tenacity, etc.

When I watch Alex, I see how he has coped with such danger, how he has navigated the task ahead of him, and I am blown away! I can learn things that I can apply to woodworking. others see him as reckless. Take what you want from it. Riding a bicycle on a road is about as reckless as you can get in my books!
I also learn from Bruce Lee, Chuck Yager, Abebe Bikila, Filippo Brunellschi, etc, etc, etc.. You can learn what it takes to be good at woodworking from anyone who is good at anything, the lessons are transferable.

Life is dangerous, but worth the risk.

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?


I have respect for your work and experience but to make role model of Alex is absolutely irresponsible. Yes, one has to educate themselves with proper use of tools and way of work but no level of experience or knowledge relaces using safety methods and features that have proven to reduce injuries.
Anybody who claims i have xyz years of experience without having any injuries proves absolutely nothing about whether the method they have used is safe or not.
I had a friend who was a professional climber an use all the safety gear, he still died too young of a fall....

[mreza Salav]

While I agree with the majority of your post, this paragraph is what's wrong with woodworking today. IMHO
You shouldn't sacrifice knowledge for safety.
The "I don't need to know all that stuff" crowd scares me to death.

Actually that comparison he has made is among the most absurd. So using Google to find answers to things you don't know is wrong because we should know everything?! What a terrible idea to use Google. We should dump it. Using safety features in any machine is because we want to be lame and not learn how to use it properly?! Sure, it's crazy to add seat belts, ABS breaks, airbags, stability control, etc etc because people don't want to learn drive properly....
I'm the type of person who tries to know all the stuff; I'm constantly in the mode of learning. I am a good driver (knock on wood) but still would like my car to have seat belts, ABS, use winter tires in winter, etc etc. Because no level of knowledge prepares you for things you can't foresee. To tie your hands by solely relying on your knowledge and good practice is not wise...

[Mark Hennebury]

Yes, sorry but that paragraph was a tongue in cheek one.
It seems that this is the way the world is heading, people nowadays need to learn and understand less and less, they can so easily get answers, but without any knowledge to understand it and it is scary. And they don't want to take responsibility for anything.


While I agree with the majority of your post, this paragraph is what's wrong with woodworking today. IMHO
You shouldn't sacrifice knowledge for safety.
The "I don't need to know all that stuff" crowd scares me to death.

[mreza Salav]

Hi Mreza,

"Anybody who claims i have xyz years of experience without having any injuries proves absolutely nothing about whether the method they have used is safe or not."
Exactly how does one prove that a method is safe? Apparently 50 years of testing and 100% success rate is not the way. You apparently have a higher standard, please explain. I fail to understand how you can dismiss that kind of factual data like it is meaningless, hardly seems rational to me. At the same time you ignore all the fingers being chopped off by people using the safety guards. And apparently never question why. The only place that I see this kind of absurd thinking is on woodworking forums.
?

There are enough woodworkers with 50+ years of experience that had 100% success rate until they lost a digit. And there are plenty that worked decades with no issue (were in camp 1) until they were no longer. So does that mean until yesterday they were knowledgable and were following good practice and all of a sudden not? Just because "one" person has had no serious injuries does NOT mean what they have done is safe. One person's experience is not large enough data set to draw *any* conclusion from it. Industry standards are not set by one person. They look at statistics. They collect data and standards for safety are set based on collective data.

Now you say "At the same time you ignore all the fingers being chopped off by people using the safety guards." I have no idea what does have to do with what I said.

Have a good weekend....

[Thomas McCurnin]

Not wanting to incur the wrath of some . . .

I do believe that not having a serious accident in "x" number of years operating power tools is some evidence that the user is using safe methods. At least my insurance company believes so, and if a driver hasn't had an accident in 5 years, they are labeled as a safe driver and get a rebate. Yes, the user could be lucky.

Conversely, it one has repeated accidents every year, one must question one's methods. Yes, the user could be unlucky.

But to answer the specific question, I believe the table saw is the most dangerous tool in the shop and the one that deserves the most attention and care.

[Edward Weber]

Actually that comparison he has made is among the most absurd. So using Google to find answers to things you don't know is wrong because we should know everything?! What a terrible idea to use Google. We should dump it. Using safety features in any machine is because we want to be lame and not learn how to use it properly?! Sure, it's crazy to add seat belts, ABS breaks, airbags, stability control, etc etc because people don't want to learn drive properly....
I'm the type of person who tries to know all the stuff; I'm constantly in the mode of learning. I am a good driver (knock on wood) but still would like my car to have seat belts, ABS, use winter tires in winter, etc etc. Because no level of knowledge prepares you for things you can't foresee. To tie your hands by solely relying on your knowledge and good practice is not wise...

I think you missed my point, that, or I didn't make myself clear.

Some people don't want to know all that stuff, they just want to make things.
The fundamental lack of curiosity for the basic knowledge of how simple machines work is staggering and potentially dangerous. I believe you get out what you put in, not knowing is one thing, not wanting to know is another.

Yes, I want those things in my car, but, those systems are there to help, not to be solely relied upon. You don't drive like a nut because you have airbags or ABS and you think you won't get hurt, do you?

"To tie your hands by solely relying on your knowledge and good practice is not wise"

I have the knowledge to know what I don't know and what I can and can't control, also the sense to make sound decisions based on that. Whether that's looking up info on Google or using safety features on power tools, that's my knowledge and good practice.
I think you are trying to deal in absolutes, I take a more reasoned approach, it's not a zero-sum game.

[Mark Hennebury]

Mreza, when people refuse to answer questions and divert the conversation it usually means that they are backed in the corner and got nothing.

Lets get real.

So what this boils down to is you are trying to convince me that my way of working is dangerous and reckless and I will get injured working this way.
That's a 24" jointer by the way. And that is me with my hand on the fence about 30 years ago. And the other is a guy that I taught woodworking to, and who worked for me and a friend, who just died a few months ago.
And those are my hands, picture taken this evening ( may be different tomorrow)

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And that this way is safer and has been proven to be so statistically, and that I should accept that and change over to this far safer way. I gotta tell you it's a hard sell.
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I have probably dressed tens of thousands of board feet of lumber more than all of these guys put together.

And the horseshit about I may loose a finger tomorrow, will never change the safety record of the past 50 years! You cannot take that away!
I am 69 years old, i have hand a degenerative nerve disease which has decided to affect me the past five years, it causes muscle atrophy, reduced balance and hand tremors, if I don't have an accident it will be a miracle!, still has nothing to do with the past 50 years.

The reason that I haven't had an accident like these people is because I wouldn't do the stupid shit that they do!

So ask yourself Why do they work like this? And when you have an answer let me know.

So tell me again.... who is reckless one.

[mreza Salav]

So tell me again.... who is reckless one.

Never said what you do is reckless, or unsafe, or told you how you should work, or said anything else about you personally.
I did say I respect your work and experience (see my first post). I said making a role model of Alex is irresponsible.
The way I work (not just woodworking) is try to learn the proper way, be aware of possible surprises and be aware how to deal with them (don't like surprises) and avoid situations that can be dangerous. On top of them all, use any safety guard/measure that has proved to reduce the risks as much as possible.
Have a good evening.

[Thomas McCurnin]

So when I was in the trades at ages 14-18, we built entire houses (ripping, cross-cutting mitering, and even shaping) on a Comet 20" Radial Arm Saw, with a ridiculous cross cut range which I forget, but which was something like 30 inches, powered by a gas engine. No guards to speak of. No riving knife. No saw stop. No hold downs. On its own trailer. It was, by any description, one of the most dangerous and scary machines ever invented. The head union guy gave us a two day class on operating this widow-maker with of course an emphasis on safety. No one in our projects, that is about 50 carpenters and a dozen steel workers who used it ever had any incident, and it ran probably 5-6 hours a day, five days a week. Yes, we used push sticks and fabricated our own shop made jigs and hold downs. If the Union Stewart ever caught us without eye goggles and without using a push stick and hold downs (when appropriate), we would get instantly fired. Often as a clueless teenager, I had to ask one of the Journeymen how to make a particular cut. That type of collaboration was encouraged. Sort of like this web site, eh?

The point of this story is that people, if properly trained, using safe methods, can operate any machine. And there are many different ways to make a cut, not a single safe way. So everybody just lighten up, and accept that people work using different methods.