Change of the Era

[James Pallas]

I believe I’m seeing the change of era. I see lots of references to bandsaws, table saws, power drills, jointers, powered routers, planers, ros’s. In todays world is anything that is not CNC, or somehow AI controlled considered a “hand tool”. Maybe neanders are becoming bronze agers.
LOL
Jim

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I’m a hybrid, 65% hand tools, 35% power. No CNC and no interest in acquiring one. In fact, some of the YouTube woodworking channels I used to follow have been unsubscribed due to an emphasis on CNC.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't watch Woodworking for mere mortals any more since it was mostly power tool an plywood. There were some ideas that could be done by hand tool with traditional joinery.

I use a bandsaw mostly for ripping and resawing. Have to hand plane the surfaces.

A little time was spent rehabbing a pad saw handle today. It was picked up in a small antique shop for a few bucks yesterday. One thing that may need doing is drilling out the back side and tap them for the screws. The current threads in the brass nose piece seem to have been wallowed out over the years of use. My drill press will be used in this endeavor. Maybe it should be done with an eggbeater drill instead, if the neanderthal way of doing things must be followed.

I always thought it was not a real accurate name for people who do not have a full machine equiped shop.

jtk

[James Pallas]

It seems very different to me when power tools are added to the mix. Table saw being used, you can clean up the edge with a block plane. Unless you are very well practiced on long rips by hand you’ll probably need at least a jack. No need for a scrub, jack, and jointer on face work if a planer is used. Not anything wrong, it’s just different. Different kit different approaches. I enjoy seeing and hearing about hand work much more than power tool work.
Jim

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I’m getting more into hand tools even though I do have the power equipment. There’s a lot of good hand tool woodworkers on the ‘net but I’m not sure that I’ve ever noticed the slant towards “CNC or bust” being the norm. Maybe I’m just slow.
I am thinking of learning to use a cnc machine which I can access, for a series of projects that I have in mind. Also it’s in a dry
warm space (my shop is an unconditioned garage).
All the final finishing will be using hand tools only, as usual.

[Derek Cohen]

I believe I’m seeing the change of era. I see lots of references to bandsaws, table saws, power drills, jointers, powered routers, planers, ros’s. In todays world is anything that is not CNC, or somehow AI controlled considered a “hand tool”. Maybe neanders are becoming bronze agers.
LOL
Jim

Jim, it is not the tools, but the way we use them, and our approach to building (whatever you build).

Some here want to remain out-and-out users of hand tools. Fine by me. I consider myself a fairly traditionally-orientated woodworker, insofar as I prefer joinery which possesses both the greatest strength and longevity (which includes reversibility for repairs in 100 years). This means mortice-and-tenon joinery rather than dominos or biscuits. Yet I own both these machines. They have a place in the workshop, but not for my furniture.

Basically, I use machines for the grunt work of preparation of rough stock, and then hand tools for joinery and finishing. Sometimes I use machines for joinery and finishing. I do have routers and sanders. It just depends on what you are building, how quickly, and what finish you seek. This is not often, since hand tools are where the fun lies.

There is art in using power tools well. But there are shortcut that are becoming increasingly seen - a degree in computer science is needed to run a CNC or similar, and I view this as a different kind of skill, not one I am interested in. I can see dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists becoming resentful and threatened by this new generation, since programming on a computer takes the place of years of practice at a bench.

Recently I purchased a 20 year old Festool tracksaw. It is like new, possibly used once or twice in its life. Why did I get it? Partly curiosity and partly I see a use. It was dirt cheap. So I built a bench to run a track as well as store a number of systainers I have accumulated over the years. My decision was to build this with mortice-and-tenon joints, rather than use a Domino. 24 M&T joints ….

https://i.postimg.cc/BQKh1YBy/8a.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/bc125fbb-90f3-4ef4-a88d-034fad07851c

It will not replace this ..

https://i.postimg.cc/xdCxqM07/4.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/904f7df7-c06f-4e03-a56b-42955ed485d4

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

The Dungeon Woodshop has always been a Hybrid shop.....not because this or that tool....more of a matter of how well that tool will FIT into my shop...Then, I tend to use what I consider the best type of tool for a given task.....it may be a hand tool, it may be a power tool...it all depends on what task I am trying to do.

If one reads along on one of my "Build-along" posts....one will not only see the tool selections used...but.. I will usually describe WHY this or that type of tool got used....

There just isn't the space IN my shop for any CNC tools....and that is the way I prefer it.

All I ever ask of this or that type of tool..is that they do the tasks I NEED them to do....and....IF it can't..I'll soon find one that will.

[Rafael Herrera]

Is the Computer Numerical Control (CNC) the next step/era? Who knows. There is a quality to machine controlled cutting that looks so precise and neat and, re-stating the obvious, it looks machine made, that's not why I'm into woodworking. I'm no stranger to this technology, not in my line of work nowadays, but I'm not unfamiliar with programming, stepping motors, robotics, AI, etc. Perhaps it has the draw of new toy/gizmo for some audiences, but it's not for me, I couldn't care less to program cutting a bunch of letters, lines and/or circles.

Who would care to make, for example, doors, in this manner if not someone making a living in woodworking?

https://youtu.be/8LLUUgVRzLo

(yuk)

[Edward Weber]

Woodworking has always been an evolution of speed and refinement when it comes to using machines. Where you land on the evolutionary scale is very personal.
Some want to use all hand tools, but there are very few of those left. Next are the ones who use machines to the point where they can fit the lumber into the shop. Then there are those who use machines "just for rough work" which means many things to many people and so on and so on down the line until we get to primarily CNC users.
While everybody seems to have one these days, IMO, few people use them for more than cookie cutter type projects. If anyone knows of a good channel for CNC beyond cutting flat panels into shapes like a jigsaw on steroids, I would appreciate it.
For now and probably forever, I'll stick with my current method of using tools I can afford that can aid and/or simplify my work.

[James Pallas]

I was wondering what constitutes a neander woodworker today. To me it means hand powered tools. If your project starts out with jointer, planer, table saw, powered router, powered plane and ends with hand sawn dovetails and a smoothing plane is it a neander project or a general woodworking project? Because of CNC and AI in general have the mentioned tools been recognized as hand tools? I should say that I own and use powered tools. I generally buy rough lumber. In todays world it is not always available at suppliers. If the material comes into the shop and it is only touched by hand tools, no electrons, start to finish I post here. If I use power tools I post in General Woodworking. Sometimes I miss something though or forget.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

I was wondering what constitutes a neander woodworker today.

It may be a different concept for each person. If we were to be true to the name of Neanderthal, wouldn't we only use stone axes and knives?

My projects sometimes do not use traditional joinery. Instead they might use screws, nails or pocket screws. Most of the time those are not posted here. The exception being when building a box to hold tanged twist drill bits for use in a brace or an end table with an apron made with molding planes.

Here is a piece where the bandsaw was used:

488583

Some had to be planed enough to set square on the table and against the fence to resaw the faces:

488584

Then to the bandsaw:

488585

After that it was back to the bench for a lot of hand planing:

488582

Maybe this isn't true Neanderthal woodworking. Neither is it truely power tool woodworking. This hunk of lumber came from my neighbor's Alaska chain saw mill. At best, this may have been his second attempt at setting this mill up. If it had come from a lumber yard as rough cut, it would likely have been much closer to square.

To me, Neanderthal woodworking is a state of mind more than what is being used in the shop. Though in my shop there are really only three large power tools; a bandsaw, a drill press and a lathe. There are battery powered drills, a circular saw and electric sanders. They do not see much use.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

I was wondering what constitutes a neander woodworker today. To me it means hand powered tools. If your project starts out with jointer, planer, table saw, powered router, powered plane and ends with hand sawn dovetails and a smoothing plane is it a neander project or a general woodworking project? Because of CNC and AI in general have the mentioned tools been recognized as hand tools? I should say that I own and use powered tools. I generally buy rough lumber. In todays world it is not always available at suppliers. If the material comes into the shop and it is only touched by hand tools, no electrons, start to finish I post here. If I use power tools I post in General Woodworking. Sometimes I miss something though or forget.
Jim

Jim, although Neanderthal is rec.woodworking (news:rec.woodworking)-speak for a woodworker who prefers hand tools, "Neanderthal" and "Galoot" are often used synonymously. You would know this if a member of the Old Tools listserve. Go to the website and this is the origin of Galoot ...

According to our illustrious GM, Patrick Olguin, the origin of the term "Galoot" as an honorific is as follows:
A long time ago, in a newsgroup far away, a discussion of saw-sharpening arose among the hunched and bent-backed. Several of this curious group, seeking to find further enlightenment on saw-sharpening (sawsets, and their operation, in particular), scurried to the relative safety of 4-way e-mail to discuss the arcane nature of this mostly-forgotten tool.
A day or so into the conversation, I was invited by Porthos, Athos, Darta.. oops! Wrong group. It was Huey, Louie, Dewey.. no no no! Steve LaMantia, Geoff Mason, Mike Davies, and Bruce Haugen invited me into their discussion to see if I could shed any light on the situation (some historians claim that they just needed someone to kick around).
It was fascinating. The discussion went on for days. The productivity at each of their employers plummeted. Finally, after much speculation, reading, debating, and almost no name-calling (I think I was called a few) Mike Davies managed to get his hands on some actual literature on the ubiquitous Stanley #42. He faxed it to each of "the five", as they came to be known, and then a strange thing happened. It can only be described as fate.
Within minutes, each person, on his own, contacted a renowned old-tool dealer, inquiring as to the availability and cost of a Stanley #42 pistol grip saw set. I think I was the last to contact him (I'm a slow typist), and the response I got from Patrick Leach was (paraphrased):
WTF is going on here? I'm sittin' here, minding my own business, when in the span of a couple seconds, I get e-mail from five galoots, demanding saw sets! What're you guys smokin' anyway?!

The exact verbiage is lost somewhere in cyberspace, but the key word was there: Galoot. It suited us. We are a little strange.

Links: https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/


Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

I just need to produce stuff. No time is spent justifying which way I do it.

[Norman Pirollo]

A very relevant topic in light of the growing trend today towards CNC. I can imagine how confusing it is for a younger person to start woodworking with the choice of hand tool woodworking, hybrid woodworking, full-on power tools or skip it all and embrace CNC. The upcoming generation has already been raised with computers and CNC is almost a natural step in that direction. The message on social media is to get the work done quickly and move on to a next project. I see very, very little attention to detail anymore. Curious to see how this unfolds.

[Edward Weber]

For myself, it doesn't matter how the project starts, it always ends with hand tools doing the final few steps. Whether that's hand sanding or some other finesse work.
I have nothing against CNC machines themselves, it just seems too many start using them without a reasonable understanding of basic woodworking, which can be crucial.

[steven c newman]

Somedays..I will use a Router and router table....other days?
488677
I just want to give things a good bash.....

There IS one fellow..that only uses Candles to light his shop....and frowns on others IF they don't do the same....100% "Tree to Furniture" by hand tools ONLY...
More power to him..IF that is the way he chooses....I follow a slightly different "path"......

[Mike Allen1010]

Jim, it is not the tools, but the way we use them, and our approach to building (whatever you build).

Some here want to remain out-and-out users of hand tools. Fine by me. I consider myself a fairly traditionally-orientated woodworker, insofar as I prefer joinery which possesses both the greatest strength and longevity (which includes reversibility for repairs in 100 years). This means mortice-and-tenon joinery rather than dominos or biscuits. Yet I own both these machines. They have a place in the workshop, but not for my furniture.

Basically, I use machines for the grunt work of preparation of rough stock, and then hand tools for joinery and finishing. Sometimes I use machines for joinery and finishing. I do have routers and sanders. It just depends on what you are building, how quickly, and what finish you seek. This is not often, since hand tools are where the fun lies.

There is art in using power tools well. But there are shortcut that are becoming increasingly seen - a degree in computer science is needed to run a CNC or similar, and I view this as a different kind of skill, not one I am interested in. I can see dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists becoming resentful and threatened by this new generation, since programming on a computer takes the place of years of practice at a bench.

Recently I purchased a 20 year old Festool tracksaw. It is like new, possibly used once or twice in its life. Why did I get it? Partly curiosity and partly I see a use. It was dirt cheap. So I built a bench to run a track as well as store a number of systainers I have accumulated over the years. My decision was to build this with mortice-and-tenon joints, rather than use a Domino. 24 M&T joints ….

https://i.postimg.cc/BQKh1YBy/8a.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/bc125fbb-90f3-4ef4-a88d-034fad07851c

It will not replace this ..

https://i.postimg.cc/xdCxqM07/4.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/904f7df7-c06f-4e03-a56b-42955ed485d4

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek I appreciate your thoughts about how advances in technology influence practitioners/crafts people. i’m wondering if it matters what dimensions of the craft the technology influences – for example I’m guessing when powered tablesaws/bandsaws were created, woodworkers recognized they were simply making fundamental aspects of the craft (dimensioning Rough stock) easier and more efficient.

When stationary power tools evolved and became easy to surface stock and cut joinery that was probably another change that is harder to accept.

Today, personally I value the aspect of the craft that can’t be automated, which for me are: asymmetrical placed dovetails, through wedged mortise and tenon joints, veneering, hand planed final surfaces, inlay, carving etc.

Sometime soon I’m guessing those things will also be able to be done by machines/AI, which for me would suck the joy out of the craft. Likely I’ll be gone by then and I’m probably glad for that.

Best, Mike

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, we are on the same page here. Those who value traditional construction in the main will incorporate modern tools to assist with the process they have been dedicated to before. Using a handsaw or a tablesaw to form a tenon is within the same “family”, compared to joinery based on biscuits or dominos. Tradition continues. Preference for a handsaw vs tablesaw is another matter - this can be a toss up according to the circumstances.

I suspect that many newbies to woodworking may prefer dominoes and pocket screws because they are inexperienced, lack skills, and also because they have yet to appreciate the history and traditions behind fine woodworking. Some will change (presumably as they come to recognise the limitations of power-only-influenced design), and some will not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Derek I appreciate your thoughts about how advances in technology influence practitioners/crafts people. i’m wondering if it matters what dimensions of the craft the technology influences – for example I’m guessing when powered tablesaws/bandsaws were created, woodworkers recognized they were simply making fundamental aspects of the craft (dimensioning Rough stock) easier and more efficient.

Throughout history there has been resistance to new methods and/or mechanization. They have given us new words like luddite or saboteur. The luddites were English workers who thought machinery was going to take away their jobs. The saboteur moniker comes from rural workers who wore wooden shoes called sabots. The story goes these shoes were jammed into the machinery to stop them. Sabotage was the name given to the act of gumming up the works.

One big change in technology in my lifetime was the transistor. One of my father's skills was repairing televisions. This was back in the day of tubes. When the transistor started to get used in radios he felt it was just a fad and wouldn't grow in to a much wider field. He was resistant about learning solid state electronics. As TVs changed over the years, he stopped working on them. He was in error on his judgement toward transistors. Though the fears of workers from centuries before were correct, the transistor and solid state electronics has pretty much eliminated the viability of a TV repair business.

Many years ago I worked on computer mother boards on a component level. Today so much of it is surface mount one would need specialized equipment to test, remove and replace components.

It is pretty much the same story in many endeavors.

If one is running a commercial production shop, they will do well to embrace the technology available to them. Hobbyists or traditionalists can do as they please. If one is trying to make a living at something they have to either work efficiently or have such a high standard of production buyers will gladly pay a premium for the effort.

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

We bought the big Domino at work, somewhat reluctantly. However it has proved to be versatile and paid for itself.

I don't personally see using a domino as less skilled than using a tablesaw. In addition I think it's much safer. I've been trained in an environment where all circular saws need a crown guard and a riving knife.

Even the paraih that is a biscuit jointer can be useful for alignment on difficult jobs.

What is wonderful for the home woodworker is that a bandsaw and a good selection of hand tools is a very enjoyable way to work. It's also an approach that works well when space is limited.

Although I don't really follow the visible hand tool people much, one service they offer is keeping the craft visible. We would all still enjoy what we do whether the celebrity du jour exists or not, but what they do is keep drawing new people in. That's a good thing!

[Thomas Wilson]

I follow Israel Martin (@lacabraenlaescalera) for his high level of skill with hand tools. Most of his instagram shows the upper level of his shop. It is beautiful. But he has shown the lower level of his building too that has a collection of standard power tools. He doesn’t talk about ever using them.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I will always remember the day I discovered pocket screws had been invented. I was re-creating a ready made base cabinet to accommodate a dishwasher. Cutting a style out of the face frame with a dovetail saw. My previously very sharp dovetail saw and I felt severely betrayed. Now I make that cut with a hacksaw or jigsaw with a metal cutting blade.

[chris carter]

CNC is the future. *Almost* any professional woodworker that doesn’t have one yet will have one in the next five years. Failing to do so will make it difficult to compete on price with competitors because of the massive amount of time they save, particularly with anything requiring multiples. My industry (recording industry) went through one of these massive evolutionary jumps shortly after I got into the business when we switched from tape based recording systems with large analog mixing consoles and racks full of gear for mixdown to now mixing everything “in the box” meaning entirely within a computer. Today, mixing for record labels, it’s virtually impossible to get work mixing the old way. If I didn’t mix in the box I basically would have a very difficult time getting any jobs and major label jobs would probably be impossible.

I have nothing against power tools or CNC. I’m a hobbyist and I’m 99% hand tools because it’s just more fun to me and I have all the patience in the world. But if I were a professional I would be overwhelmingly power tools because throughput is the name of the game. And if I were a professional you’d better believe I would buy a CNC. If I was a small craft professional I would buy a laser engraver because there is such a demand for it and you can nearly double the price of a cutting board, coat rack, coaster set, etc. Bottom line, the technology gives 99% of customers what they want.

That all said, referring to the OP’s post, I usually have to resort to saying “no electricity” instead of just “hand tools.” When I say “hand tools” people usually think powered tools you hold with your hand or even powered tools that you push the stock through with your hand. That means that to most people I talk to a table saw qualifies as a “hand tool.” Even sometimes when talking to woodworkers!

[Charles Guest]

Blended woodworking. power and hand tools, is well over 200 years old at this point. For small shops, small operations -- easily 100+ years old.

If you honk up a project workpiece, knowing that a new one - four-squared from rough stock, is literally minutes away as a replacement - makes "hand tool" woodworking far more palatable. One can dote on beautiful dovetails to heart's content when if a drawer side for some reason goes wrong, a new piece of stock ready for virtuosity is available in about ten minutes of machine time, if that.

Material budget? What's that? Throw enough money at it until it's built. I just won't take a picture of that big pile of screwed up parts. Nobody will ever know it took me twice the amount of wood that it should have. "I'm not happy with the kerf width of this saw." "Didn't I see where some fellow was making one with plate 25% thinner?" "Here's my Visa card, how quick can you ship?" And on and on...

[Rob Young]

I'm quite happy to mix and match technologies in furtherance of a project.

I have (too many?) hand tools and I greatly enjoy using them. They are my first choice for most tasks. But I also have a tablesaw, bandsaw, small power jointer and lunchbox planer because lets face it, some things are tedious and sometimes I just don't have the time.

But to this I've added a small gantry CNC (Shapeoko) and a Shaper Origin (which I really do enjoy using). The primary use of the Shaper Origin is to make templates for other tasks and to help me make jig parts. I've whipped up custom shooting boards from MDF and plywood using that to do angles and while I haven't yet completed it, I've done the CAD for a compound angle design.

Sure, I could make those with hand tools and my more standard power tools but it was a way for me to increase skills in CAD and become more familiar with what the CNC and SO could do.

And in the end, my time and my money are my own so I can choose how to spend both.

[Bryan Lee]

I think this is an interesting topic. I get a little out of sorts when I see things advertised as “handmade” just because it was hand sanded, but otherwise made on CNC machines. I have had a long time love affair with fine English shotguns, and it has come out in last years that some firms, whom charge in excess of $250k for a “handmade” shotgun/rifle actually use CNC at some steps. I think a lot of this probably goes on in our world of woodworking as well. I am not sure where the line is drawn in terms of electric “hand tools” and manual hand tools. That’s a hard one to draw.

[Bryan Lee]

I would imagine a lot of this has to do with newer generations enjoying and spending more time on computers, so when they want to get into wood working, it’s a natural tendency to go the CNC route. That same person might not find spending a few hours with a scrub plane and a rough sawn board much fun. I enjoy that type of work, and really don’t enjoy computers at all. I think there’s just a different mindset and set of skills. I know most of the shop classes in schools now are teaching CNC rather than how to set of a handplane.

[Jon Snider]

My transition has been a little different than others posting here. Coming from strictly a power tool background, I’ve been building wooden dories now for a few years with ever increasing use of hand tools. I just like it more, especially when I figure out a new way to use something other than a router. My hand tool collection has significantly increased, especially hand planes, due in no small part to many here in this sub forum. (Where can I send the bill?����).

Will i be giving up my power tools, especially my band saw, sliding table saw, Sawstop, and huge collection of DeWalt cordless tools? No.

[Edward Weber]

I would imagine a lot of this has to do with newer generations enjoying and spending more time on computers, so when they want to get into wood working, it’s a natural tendency to go the CNC route. That same person might not find spending a few hours with a scrub plane and a rough sawn board much fun. I enjoy that type of work, and really don’t enjoy computers at all. I think there’s just a different mindset and set of skills. I know most of the shop classes in schools now are teaching CNC rather than how to set of a handplane.

This is a problem IMO.
Sure, it's a natural progression to use what's available at the time you're starting the craft, but you still need to learn about the wood. I don't care what tools you're comfortable using, you need to understand the wood you're working with. This is what seems to be disappearing these days. It seems too many are just cutting out shapes in plywood on a CNC.

I saw something similar happen with the introduction of the Domino (which is a great tool). It let people just cut mortises Willy-nilly, without much regard for adhering to any proper joinery/wood rules. If there was more knowledge about the wood, species, grain direction and orientation, this would not happen. If you don't understand the wood and joinery, it doesn't matter how fast or with what you cut the wood.

I also think one of the points along the timeline of this "change of era" should be the use of solid wood or manufactured woods like plywood.

JMHO

[Mike Allen1010]

I think this is an interesting topic. I get a little out of sorts when I see things advertised as “handmade” just because it was hand sanded, but otherwise made on CNC machines. I have had a long time love affair with fine English shotguns, and it has come out in last years that some firms, whom charge in excess of $250k for a “handmade” shotgun/rifle actually use CNC at some steps. I think a lot of this probably goes on in our world of woodworking as well. I am not sure where the line is drawn in terms of electric “hand tools” and manual hand tools. That’s a hard one to draw.

I hope the Purdys are handmade if I’m writing a check that big!

[James Pallas]

When I started this thread I was thinking about how we loose tools and methods of work. I like hand tools as much for learning to use them and exploring methods. I enjoy exploring old furniture and old houses, and buildings to see what the inside and the backs look like. It seems to me that for years hand tool workers have been trying to match machine work. In the past there was no machine tool work. Woodworkers tried to match the work of those that did fine work. There is lots to explore in hand “no electrons”tool work .
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

Jim, currently, an experienced and advanced woodworker will use a range of tools to do the work without sacrificing creativity, construction, and detail. The factor that we are concerned about in this thread is whether we will lose the "hand guiding the tool". Hand tools epitomise workmanship of risk, as defined by David Pye. The very opposite of this is not the use of power tools (which are somewhere in the middle), but the use of CNC and other computerised equipment, where the risks are in the computer programming, and not the use of hands. I imagine that in the future "Made by Hand" will come to mean "made without CNC". Unhappily, I suspect that the future of professional furniture, with the exception of the few high-end makers, making lies with computers, since anything less will be uneconomic. This may increasingly influence the amateur market.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Young]

From David Pye's "The Nature and Art of Workmanship" :

"workmanship using any kind of technique or apparatus, in which the quality of the result is not predetermined, but depends on the judgement, dexterity and care which the maker exercises as he works"

This is his definition of "workmanship of risk" as opposed to "workmanship of certainty" which is what he likened to mass production. The levels of workmanship are what are different, or at least have the greatest potential for difference, e.g. good vs bad.

"The danger is not that the workmanship of risk will die out altogether but rather that, from want of theory, and lack of standards, its possibilities will be neglected and inferior forms of it will be taken for granted and accepted."

He points out that good workmanship (again, he hasn't defined HOW the workmanship is accomplished, only that it exists in cooperation with design) will improve a design while bad workmanship will magnify the difference between intent of the design and results.

Elsewhere in the book (I need to go find my copy again!) he discusses how this applies to both the creation of jigs and appliances to make produce the end result and the production of that end result.

So my simple interpretation is that the workmanship of risk encompasses the use of hand tools and power tools, with CNCs being an extension of power tools. Use what you have and be happy. Learn to use more (tools) and also be happy.

[Derek Cohen]

“He points out that good workmanship (again, he hasn't defined HOW the workmanship is accomplished, only that it exists in cooperation with design) will improve a design while bad workmanship will magnify the difference between intent of the design and results.

Elsewhere in the book (I need to go find my copy again!) he discusses how this applies to both the creation of jigs and appliances to make produce the end result and the production of that end result.

So my simple interpretation is that the workmanship of risk encompasses the use of hand tools and power tools, with CNCs being an extension of power tools. Use what you have and be happy. Learn to use more (tools) and also be happy.”

Rob, I think you and I interpret “Workmanship of Risk” very differently. Using CNC does not involve any risk in any form. Power tools, when involving a fence to guide work, or when a hand tool is guided in a fixture or jig, does not constitute “workmanship of risk”. Hand held power tools and hand tools used without supports constitute workmanship of risk.

I do not see an issue in using guided power tools, but even this is still vry different from CNC, where no hands are involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[chris carter]

The entire problem is that the general public (right or wrong) perceives stuff built by hand with neander tools as higher quality, or at least more desirable, than stuff made with power tools. Notwithstanding, of course, the cost of acquisition (ie. purchasing the item from the seller, or buying the tools and learning the skills to do it yourself). And stuff made with power tools is more desirable than stuff made by CNC (mass production notwithstanding). So we get into a marketing game here. Whether it’s something made to be sold, or something made and shown to family and friends, there’s an incentive to push the description toward the former and away from the latter. You see this all the time on Etsy or in small higher end furniture shops. By way of example, how many times have we seen the phrase “hand cut dovetails” highlighted in a description of an item for sale that was otherwise made completely with power tools? There is no functional difference between machine cut and hand cut dovetails – unless you are making 1/16” pins or you aren’t making them all the same. 99.9% of consumers are completely incapable of identifying hand cut vs machine cut dovetails. So why put it in the ad? Because it makes the piece more attractive to the buy and thus more likely to sell, or sell at a higher price. Same thing with “hand planed,” etc.

[Jim Koepke]

The entire problem is that the general public (right or wrong) perceives stuff built by hand with neander tools as higher quality, or at least more desirable, than stuff made with power tools.

My folks had a furniture store. Customers would always ask my dad why his oak roll top desks cost so much more than some of those in other stores in the area.

He had no problem with visiting his competition and seeing what they were offering. The inexpensive roll top desks were often from overseas, made of particle board or plywood and covered with oak veneer.

He ordered one from one of his suppliers to display next to a solid wood oak roll top desk so he could show customers the difference. More times than not, after the explanation and having the customer lift the inexpensive unit first and then the oak unit, they would still opt for the less expensive piece. (many of them couldn't even budge the light end of the oak desk)

For many people price is too important. They would rather have some flash now than an heirloom for their grandchildren.

jtk

[Rob Young]

“He points out that good workmanship (again, he hasn't defined HOW the workmanship is accomplished, only that it exists in cooperation with design) will improve a design while bad workmanship will magnify the difference between intent of the design and results.

Elsewhere in the book (I need to go find my copy again!) he discusses how this applies to both the creation of jigs and appliances to make produce the end result and the production of that end result.

So my simple interpretation is that the workmanship of risk encompasses the use of hand tools and power tools, with CNCs being an extension of power tools. Use what you have and be happy. Learn to use more (tools) and also be happy.”

Rob, I think you and I interpret “Workmanship of Risk” very differently. Using CNC does not involve any risk in any form. Power tools, when involving a fence to guide work, or when a hand tool is guided in a fixture or jig, does not constitute “workmanship of risk”. Hand held power tools and hand tools used without supports constitute workmanship of risk.

I do not see an issue in using guided power tools, but even this is still vry different from CNC, where no hands are involved.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Yes we are.

There is risk associated with the use of power tools or specifically in this discussion, CNC. Things fail. People make mistakes, software glitches. Hence the risk.

Pye's definition includes the use of jigs and appliances. And I don't remember a strong differentiation between hand and power tools so long as they are applied toward producing a result that meets or exceeds expectations of the design. Given his skill in carving I would however assume that he prefers hand tools for that purpose. But in the preparation of materials? In the joining of parts of a carving or other furniture piece? A mix and match of hand and power tools perhaps.

There is planning and forethought involved in using a carving chisel. There is planning and forethought involved in using a power tool. There is planning and forethought involved in using a CNC. Different planning of course, but planning none the less.

Properly applied, any tool is the right tool. Properly applied and in the right sequence, mixing and matching hand/power/CNC will produce an end result that acceptably implements the design.

And hands are most definitely required in the preparation of a CNC, its setup, preparation of material, maintained and programming. But this does not make it a hand tool. On that we do agree.

[Derek Cohen]

Rob, you are s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g to make your argument :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

I believe I’m seeing the change of era. I see lots of references to bandsaws, table saws, power drills, jointers, powered routers, planers, ros’s. In todays world is anything that is not CNC, or somehow AI controlled considered a “hand tool”. Maybe neanders are becoming bronze agers.
LOL
Jim

This is the definition of hand tool that I subscribe to.

Hand tool means, hand-held equipment that depends on the energy of the worker for its direct effect and that does not have a pneumatic, hydraulic, electrical or chemical energy source for its operation;

So no, battery operated drill/drivers and everything else that requires charging are not a hand tool in my book. If something and/or it's battery need to be plugged in or connected to an air line, etc., then it's a powered tool.

[steven c newman]

There are some out there...that even using electric lights is "taboo"......

I am a Hybrid Shop....whatever someone else wants to use in THEIR shop, that is entirely their call. I try to use the "correct" tool for the tasks at hand....according to what is IN MY shop....could not care less what is in, or not in someone else's shop. My shop is in a basement, not some Ivory Tower set in the 1600s.....get real.

Are my Projects "Hand made"? Well, without my hands doing the work..the work won't get done, now would it.

At the other end from the Candle Power shop...there are some that say if your shop does not have at LEAST $25, 000 in tools, you just can't be a serious woodworker.....

Here is a thought......why don't we all just go back and work IN our shops? Bad Chest Cold not withstanding, I still meander to the shop, from time to time.....if for no other reason than to sweep the floor, and put the tools away....and thumb my nose at them Ivory Towers......

[James Pallas]

This is what I mean by change of an era. You can claim to be what you want and no one can challenge it. An example is the world’s environmental expert is a 15 year old that no one dare question. So you are what you claim. I can do a project all without touching any wood. Than claim all handmade because my fingers touched a keyboard. LOL
Jim

[Rob Young]

Rob, you are s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g to make your argument :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don't believe I am. He makes no distinction between hand and power tools or the use of jigs and appliances.

Ordered a replacement 2nd hand copy of the book. I looked and looked last night and couldn't find my copy. Sinking suspicion I loaned to to somebody and never got it back.

[Derek Cohen]

Rob, I think that you are confusing the fact that Pye used machines as well as hand tools. That he used machines must not be interpreted that he equated their use to hand tools. His book was about examining the different roles and the different ways in which tools are used. and the skills each required.

As I wrote earlier, there is skill required in using machines, as there is skill required in working by hand. There is no stigma attached to either. There is risk with each, but a different risk.

Pye defines the workmanship of risk as “workmanship using any kind of technique or apparatus, in which the quality of the result is not predetermined, but depends on the judgment, dexterity, and care which the maker exercises as he works”.

CNC is definitely predetermined. Table saw cuts are predetermined. Jigs are all about predetermining the result. Sawing by hand and paring free hand with a chisel are not predetermined. They are the workmanship of risk.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My workmanship of risk often gives me a nice warm feeling as the evidence of failure is consumed in my living room wood stove.

My theory on why master woodworkers didn't use bandsaws, table saws and CNC in the 18th & 19th century is because the machines didn't exist then.

jtk

[Christopher Charles]

Interesting discussion. Jim, I think you're on to something. Perhaps we are in a third era (all overlapping), defined by the digital control/repeatability given by CNC i.e.,

-pre-power tools,
-power tools
-CNC (=digital jigs)

[Rob Young]

Replacement copy is scheduled to arrive on Saturday so hoping for time to re-read but probably not enough time to get all the way through.

And thanks to this now I need to spend time rearranging the bookshelf to see if I can remember other books I've loaned and not gotten back!

[Mel Fulks]

“No functional difference between hand cut and machine cut dovetails “. There is a difference in how they look. Some cabinet makers will
always use narrow tails on 18th century copies ….because they are making copies. There is no functional difference between a a child’s red
steel wagon used as a tea table and a real 18th century mahogany tea table , and yet one costs a lot more than the other. I have not seen machine cut dovetails that looked like 18th century dovetails. Even people shopping in used furniture stores will often choose to buy
a random fine “impractical “ piece over the sturdy piece they were looking for. Believe or not there are guys so fast at making hand-cut
dovetails that they will be finished with a job before another guy has read the directions for a new electric machine dove-tail cutter. I can’t
do that , but Ive seen it done.