Any experiences with Robland machines? - T120 shaper

[Phillip Mitchell]

I’ve been casually looking out for a larger shaper with sliding tenoning table that isn’t a completely huge machine and stumbled across a Robland T120. I have heard of the brand and occasionally seen them for sale online (mostly table saws or combo machines) here and there over the years. Never seen any Robland in person. I know they are Belgian made and that’s about it.

The machine in question is below and looks to be ~20-30 years old, which is fine and newer than most of my other equipment. I am still trying to sort out if everything is present and accounted for regarding the sliding tenoning table. I have seen the table, tenoning hood, hold down clamp so far.

For a point of comparison, other machines I have been looking at / considering are SCMI T110/130, T160, Gomad, Casadei f114, and I salivate over the older Martin shapers I have seen like T23 or T25 but they are typically out of my $ range and/or too big for my small space.

I have a smaller SCM L’invincible T100 from the late 70s and am looking for something a bit newer and larger with a motor/quill/spindle assembly and sliding table robust enough that can handle tenoning with larger diameter tenoning discs, among other things. Budget is certainly a concern and the reason I have not pulled the trigger on some of the ones I’ve seen this far; or they have been very far away. The eventual goal in my head is to have a robust machine mostly setup for tenoning and another machine that can tilt and/or be available for quick and go lineal / feeder type work and likely sell the T100 at some point, but this will take some time to achieve.

Some photos of the actual machine and a few links of some PDFs I found in Hoechsmann website that spell out the specs.

Any thoughts or experience with Robland in comparison to what I have been considering?

https://files.hoechsmann.com/lexikon/pdf/original/rob_t120.pdf

https://wtp.hoechsmann.com/en/lexikon/10046/robland_t120#documents

[Bob Falk]

I don't know about Robland shapers, but I have had a Robland 12" J/P for 20+ years and like it. Reliable, accurate, and has served me well.

[Kevin Jenness]

Looking at the pictures tells me I would have to see it in person to assess the robustness of the sliding table. The guide rods seem small unless buttressed by their supporting framework and the clamp and stops in the catalog appear a bit light for large work. "Linear ball bearings" can cover a lot of ground. That style of tenoning table with the large cantilever between spindle and ways calls for a really solid build, hard to assess from photos. The Robland machines I have seen were reasonably solid but not overbuilt or sophisticated.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Good point Kevin and thanks for the reality check. I had the same thoughts given that design of sliding table but really have no reason to assume that it’s foolproof and will offer the level of precision I would expect from such a setup. I have come to expect overbuilt in my machines and would certainly be disappointed if there was flex / inaccuracy in this sliding table setup either by design or from wear/use.

The machine isn’t close so not very practical to take a look at it without a commitment. Probably going to pass and keep looking for something a bit more proven and closer to me that I can inspect in person prior to purchase.

[Jim Becker]

I believe that Robland is under the wing of Martin these days, at least in North America. Maybe elsewhere. I don't know anything about the specific machine you ask about, however.

[Patrick Kane]

Ive only been around a few Robland machines, and I left with the impression they are a step above Grizzly/Hammer and a step or two below Felder/SCM. Price point made for a hobbyist or one man light pro shop. The specific price point where i always wondered why someone would buy a mediocre new saw for $7-8K, when they could go find a superb used saw for that amount.

You just need the right auction to come up with a cheap 90s SCM 130. There are a few in Ohio that ill be interested to see what they sell for. Same for multiple 2000-2001 T130s in new jersey that would all fit your ticket. I love deals, but i wouldnt jump at a cheap deal just for money's sake. You are going to immediately spend $1200+ on your tenoning tooling and soon the extra $500-1000 for a better quality shaper will seem like a drop in the bucket.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the feedback. I am watching the IRS auctions and the ones in NJ caught my eye. Plenty of time left for that one to get out hand!

I think I would actually get more flexibility out of machine that had a side/end tenoning table like the Robland I posted. The space I have for it in my shop is workable with that particular arrangement, though a super deep machine would be a challenge. In use/workflow, the machine is still fairly accessible for a wider range of other general shaper work with the separate side table that can simply slide back and out of the way compared to a front mounted sliding table with some type of fairly large coping sled in the way. Maybe I’m making more out it and the setup and breakdown of a dedicated coping sled / bolt on front slider isn’t as big a deal to setup and break down than I’m envisioning.

Wish i could have sprung for the used Martin T25 with side tenoning table in MA over the summer that I saw go for around $9k...it just wasn’t anywhere in the budget and so far away. Like I said, I’m in no rush or bind and can afford to just wait for a suitable machine to pop up. I can still make tenons fairly quickly and efficiently with a dado stack on my sliding table saw...just takes a bit more time and setup.

[Jared Sankovich]

Ive only been around a few Robland machines, and I left with the impression they are a step above Grizzly/Hammer and a step or two below Felder/SCM. Price point made for a hobbyist or one man light pro shop. The specific price point where i always wondered why someone would buy a mediocre new saw for $7-8K, when they could go find a superb used saw for that amount.

You just need the right auction to come up with a cheap 90s SCM 130. There are a few in Ohio that ill be interested to see what they sell for. Same for multiple 2000-2001 T130s in new jersey that would all fit your ticket. I love deals, but i wouldnt jump at a cheap deal just for money's sake. You are going to immediately spend $1200+ on your tenoning tooling and soon the extra $500-1000 for a better quality shaper will seem like a drop in the bucket.

I hadn't noticed anything with a side tenoning table lately, and I've never seen a scmi with one.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I hadn't noticed anything with a side tenoning table lately, and I've never seen a scmi with one.

The ones up for auction currently are either fixed table or the integrated front table slider on the T130.

The only SCMI side tenoning table shaper I’ve ever known of is in Luke’s shop (greatplanes) It’s a T130 variant that I remember seeing on IRS a handful of years back go for around $4k and had a 50mm spindle and required some TLC from Luke to get it fully operational, iirc.

This Griggio T45I in PA on Machinery Max has my attention, though I’m not going to lie that electronically controlled spindle tilt and raise/lower gives me anxiety and goes against nearly everything I’ve told myself to avoid. Looks like a great machine, though if I could manage to squeeze it in place and the tenoning table/fence is complete.

Does Griggio still have OEM parts/service support?

[Jared Sankovich]

The ones up for auction currently are either fixed table or the integrated front table slider on the T130.

The only SCMI side tenoning table shaper I’ve ever known of is in Luke’s shop (greatplanes) It’s a T130 variant that I remember seeing on IRS a handful of years back go for around $4k and had a 50mm spindle and required some TLC from Luke to get it fully operational, iirc.

This Griggio T45I in PA on Machinery Max has my attention, though I’m not going to lie that electronically controlled spindle tilt and raise/lower gives me anxiety and goes against nearly everything I’ve told myself to avoid. Looks like a great machine, though if I could manage to squeeze it in place and the tenoning table/fence is complete.

Does Griggio still have OEM parts/service support?

Ah yeah, I forgot Luke's t130 has the side table. I see a lot of side tables browsing european shaper listings, shipping would be a bit much though.

That Griggio looks like a better machine than the Robland.

[Greg Quenneville]

Grigio folded in 2018. We all read about 20 year old orphan electronics disabling otherwise good machines when they fail. That said, nothing’s impossible to fix if you can entice the right people for help

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just went to machinerymax and looked at that machine. Looks interesting to me, but I'm definitely not an expert. How does shipping work out for you guys who have bought on auction? I have the blessing/curse of living in a "decent" shaper free zone, so I'm going to have to deal with getting one in from the east or west.


The ones up for auction currently are either fixed table or the integrated front table slider on the T130.

The only SCMI side tenoning table shaper I’ve ever known of is in Luke’s shop (greatplanes) It’s a T130 variant that I remember seeing on IRS a handful of years back go for around $4k and had a 50mm spindle and required some TLC from Luke to get it fully operational, iirc.

This Griggio T45I in PA on Machinery Max has my attention, though I’m not going to lie that electronically controlled spindle tilt and raise/lower gives me anxiety and goes against nearly everything I’ve told myself to avoid. Looks like a great machine, though if I could manage to squeeze it in place and the tenoning table/fence is complete.

Does Griggio still have OEM parts/service support?

[Phillip Mitchell]

Well, I’m maybe an anomaly but I prefer to drive and transport the machine myself, typically. This is limited to 1-1.5 day round trip distances though and is obviously a time suck.

If I had a more commercial type of location with 18 wheeler access then I would likely reconsider. I typically take a low utility trailer or will have the seller load directly onto the back of my 1 ton flatbed and then sort out how to unload on my end.

I have had a few machines shipped via LTL freight in the past from the Boston area and it worked out fine but I had “free” access to a large shop / forklift at the local shop I apprenticed in for those shipments.

Machinery Max usually has a specific rigger or shipping company listed as a contact for each auction, though I’m not sure how they select that company and I’m sure you can use your own contacts for that as long as the pickup times align. It’s a logistical hassle either way you cut it, IMO

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I agree Phillip, I usually use the same approach for getting machines. However good used shapers are just non-existent in this area, so I've been watching auctions and dealers for a year or so. Rigging and shipping services just seem like a huge pain. Too bad because aparently all the good machines are 1000 miles away. I've just about resigned myself to just buying new as much as I hate to.

[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip, I would think the Griggio a better choice. I spent a few weeks in Bhutan setting up a shop using Griggio machines. They are not quite Martin or Hofmann quality but certainly very capable. Pinned fences with mechanical digital readouts and the side mount table and hood were very robust. Electronics are always a worry but these did not seem that complex. Understand totally the worry about auctions and unknown riggers.
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[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Joe for the feedback. I will be watching the auction. From looking at the auction photos I did not see evidence of the aluminum crosscut fence or OEM hold down clamp. The lack of clamp is able to be worked around with some type of air clamp, but the crosscut fence seems essential and I don’t know if there is any substitute from another manufacturer without studying it in person.

I sent an email to the auction house inquiring about the fence/hold down.

What are reasonable expectations for electronics and lifespan / ease of repair for something like this (spindle height and tilt)? It is, of course, concerning as my shop is intentionally very analog aside from Pro Scale DRO but a machine like this could kill a lot of birds with one stone if it has some staying power still. I think this one is an ‘06 model.

[Joe Calhoon]

Phillip,
I looked at the auction site. We had the sliding table that tilts 60 degrees each way like Martins does. This one is different, I suspect that miter gauge attaches to the sliding table then the extrusion or a wood piece attaches to that. Should not be hard to come up with something.
electronics on these is fairly simple. They use Fiama readouts that are still available. The motors for lifting and tilt are usually 24v dc. One of the Griggio brothers still sells parts for these. Evidently they had a lot of inventory when they closed.

[Albert Lee]

I have owned a Robland before, its a combination machine with Tersa cutter block, I liked it for how much it costed. I bought it new. at the time it cost half of the equivalent Felder/SCM.

I owned Casadei FV114, again, solid machine, sold it because repeatability is not possible on it.. I have side sliding table on my shaper. its a newer SCM and the bearings are THK. very solidly built.

Here is the photo of the Robland NX410 I had.
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The sliding table make these tenon cut possible with ease

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I really liked my side sliding table shaper, you can easily pivot it out of the way when not in use.

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[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Joe and Albert. Always nice to see photos of different setups. Looks like a nice SCM Albert.

I did notice an older tilting Unitronix DFFA-5 with sliding end tenoning table pop up at an IRS auction a few days ago. No evidence of the crosscut fence or hold down or additional tenoning table that raises the work up above the plane of the main table....Fence and level of sophistication looks similar to what I have now with the late 70s era SCM L’invincibile T100, but much larger and more robust package no doubt. Not sure it’s worth pursuing for too much $ as a tenoning machine unless the tenoning table parts show up, but it’s a model that has tempted me a time or 2 before.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks Joe and Albert. Always nice to see photos of different setups. Looks like a nice SCM Albert.

I did notice an older tilting Unitronix DFFA-5 with sliding end tenoning table pop up at an IRS auction a few days ago. No evidence of the crosscut fence or hold down or additional tenoning table that raises the work up above the plane of the main table....Fence and level of sophistication looks similar to what I have now with the late 70s era SCM L’invincibile T100, but much larger and more robust package no doubt. Not sure it’s worth pursuing for too much $ as a tenoning machine unless the tenoning table parts show up, but it’s a model that has tempted me a time or 2 before.


That's only the second dffa-5 with the side table I've ever seen.

[Phillip Mitchell]

That's only the second dffa-5 with the side table I've ever seen.

Same and the first one was not for sale, iirc. I was kinda lumping all Gomad / Unitronix shapers (4 and 5 models) in together in my memory in terms of what I have seen previously and considered going after.

Can you tell what is missing from the tenoning table setup and/or what that clamping (?) attachment sitting on the sliding table is from looking at the auction photos? Looks like a pretty well kept unit otherwise. I wonder if the design of the sliding table is meant for the stock to sit flush on the table shown (obviously referencing against a crosscut fence) or if there is a secondary / auxiliary cast iron table like on other tenoning tables that raises the stock up above the main table heights? Not sure I have photos of that anywhere with Unitronix to reference.

[Jared Sankovich]

Same and the first one was not for sale, iirc. I was kinda lumping all Gomad / Unitronix shapers (4 and 5 models) in together in my memory in terms of what I have seen previously and considered going after.

Can you tell what is missing from the tenoning table setup and/or what that clamping (?) attachment sitting on the sliding table is from looking at the auction photos? Looks like a pretty well kept unit otherwise. I wonder if the design of the sliding table is meant for the stock to sit flush on the table shown (obviously referencing against a crosscut fence) or if there is a secondary / auxiliary cast iron table like on other tenoning tables that raises the stock up above the main table heights? Not sure I have photos of that anywhere with Unitronix to reference.

Only the sliding table fence and clamp are absent from the pictures. The table functions like the Martins

[Joe Calhoon]

Must have been set up for lock miters with the 2 feeders

[Patrick Kane]

Thanks Joe and Albert. Always nice to see photos of different setups. Looks like a nice SCM Albert.

I did notice an older tilting Unitronix DFFA-5 with sliding end tenoning table pop up at an IRS auction a few days ago. No evidence of the crosscut fence or hold down or additional tenoning table that raises the work up above the plane of the main table....Fence and level of sophistication looks similar to what I have now with the late 70s era SCM L’invincibile T100, but much larger and more robust package no doubt. Not sure it’s worth pursuing for too much $ as a tenoning machine unless the tenoning table parts show up, but it’s a model that has tempted me a time or 2 before.

Uh oh, we might be going up against one another on this one. That is only a couple hours from me. If it goes to $4,000+, like it may, then im not a player for it.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Uh oh, we might be going up against one another on this one. That is only a couple hours from me. If it goes to $4,000+, like it may, then im not a player for it.

I will not go that high on a machine that old missing the crosscut fence and hold down clamp. The reality is that the timing isn’t the best for me for auction bidding on old machines, especially when they are 8-10 hrs away (can’t inspect beforehand) and missing integral OEM parts...I am likely not going to be a threat on this one, as tempting as it seems on paper. I would much prefer a plug and play machine with a bit more sophisticated fence + tenoning hood, but I realize that these machines don’t come available everyday. I do feel like I have seen more of them come up recently than is typical, but still worth waiting for the properly outfitted machine. My goal is wanting to have the newly acquired machine replace existing without months of potential downtime tracking down missing replacement parts, etc or having to rebuild a portion of it.

[Mel Fulks]

I don’t like shapers that are made to “ keep you safe” by not letting you clamp on needed shop made fixtures . Only the old ones will do
all complex work.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Mel, care to elaborate on that?

[Patrick Kane]

Completely taking this thread off the rails with this question, but now that the shaper is out in the open. What on earth is the jig on the sliding table for? Or is it more of a homemade guard for the spindle when doing curved work? The machine is unusual with the double feeders etc.

Interesting to finally see a manual. Everyone always claims these Gomad machines were exceptionally heavy. Looks like its only 1400lbs.

[Mel Fulks]

Most commercial shops have repeat orders for things like circular and elliptical mouldings , that require being able to clamp on jigs that are
often needed. Yes ,you can buy machines made for that purpose. Expensive stuff. I had to make things like round and square newel caps, sometimes the round stuff could be turned on a lathe !

[Jared Sankovich]

That fence thing looks a bit like a shaw guard