Handplane courage round 2

[Mark Rainey]

In a previous thread (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293028-Handplane-courage&highlight=) I asked if anyone was confident in finishing with hand plane or scrapers and did not use sandpaper when submitting photos to our finished project forum ( let alone Fine Woodworking or other magazines ). Most admitted to resorting to sandpaper. A few did not. I think a hand planed finish can look beautiful, and may be historically correct. Most people cannot tell the difference. But I got a Festool inspection light and took some pictures

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Festoon raking light



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A jack planed cherry table top




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Jack planed board with raking light. OK, hold off on all the critical comments about my poor technique


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Smoothing plane with compressed shavings. Although they appear to be lines from the edge of the plane iron, they are not. They are just scallops. And I admit my technique is not perfect.

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180 grit sanded surface with Festool raking light

Obviously, I cannot get a near perfect surface with planes. And maybe it doesn't really matter because most people cannot tell the difference. But most of us woodworkers do care, and that is why I think we almost always resort to sandpaper in the end ( unless trying to reproduce a historic piece ). And I challenge anyone to show us pictures of their hand planed surface with a raking light ( until then no ripping my hand plane technique, although I admit I can always learn ) My shop and festool light is open to anyone to come with their technique and hand planes.

[Jason Buresh]

I've never used a raking light, but is the point of it to expose tool marks that may show up in the finish? Otherwise if the marks don't show up in the finish and can't be seen with the naked eye, is it even an issue?

[Mark Rainey]

I've never used a raking light, but is the point of it to expose tool marks that may show up in the finish? Otherwise if the marks don't show up in the finish and can't be seen with the naked eye, is it even an issue?

Jason, the raking light is used when finishing raw wood and applying a finish. The aim is to get the best finish possible. Yes, I agree, most of the time it is not an issue.

[Jason Buresh]

That makes sense, that looks like a handy tool to have!

I'm curious though do you go straight from the jack plane to the smoother? And do you have a tight radius on your jack plane?

When planing a board I typically start with a jack plane with a cambered iron to act as a scrub plane, then move to a jack or fore plane with a less cambered iron to smooth some of the scallops, then to a jointer to somewhat level the surface and them finally to the smoother.

I just wonder if you used a jack or fore plane to help level the surface a bit before moving to the smoother if you might get better results? That is if your jack plane has a pretty cambered iron of course

[Tom M King]

This picture is from raking light from the Sun, just peaking around the corner of the old house.

The scallops on the shutter are about 3 thou deep. The ones on the steps are some deeper. Both are replacements on old houses, and match what original work remains on them.

edited to add. Sorry, wrong picture of the steps, but they do have scallops on the surface. Pictures of the steps are the same steps in different lighting.

You can't see either unless the lighting is perfect.

I don't remember seeing such surfaces on finish sides of old furniture.

[Warren Mickley]

I am not a contributor, so I can’t see the pictures. I stopped sanding when 320 paper lowered surface quality. That was 1978. It was later that I realized that the figure was much livelier without the sanding.

I had long assumed that someone who can’t see the difference between a sanded surface and a planed surface just didn’t know what they were looking for, but lately I think that maybe the sharpening or the planing just isn’t that good.

[Mark Rainey]

That makes sense, that looks like a handy tool to have!

I'm curious though do you go straight from the jack plane to the smoother? And do you have a tight radius on your jack plane?

When planing a board I typically start with a jack plane with a cambered iron to act as a scrub plane, then move to a jack or fore plane with a less cambered iron to smooth some of the scallops, then to a jointer to somewhat level the surface and them finally to the smoother.

I just wonder if you used a jack or fore plane to help level the surface a bit before moving to the smoother if you might get better results? That is if your jack plane has a pretty cambered iron of course

Good suggestion Jason…I guess I could always improve my technique but the point of my post is to solicit pics of expert hand plane users with their final surface in a raking light.

[Mark Rainey]

This picture is from raking light from the Sun, just peaking around the corner of the old house.

The scallops on the shutter are about 3 thou deep. The ones on the steps are some deeper. Both are replacements on old houses, and match what original work remains on them.

edited to add. Sorry, wrong picture of the steps, but they do have scallops on the surface. Pictures of the steps are the same steps in different lighting.

You can't see either unless the lighting is perfect.

I don't remember seeing such surfaces on finish sides of old furniture.

Fine historic woodworking Tom!

[Mark Rainey]

I am not a contributor, so I can’t see the pictures. I stopped sanding when 320 paper lowered surface quality. That was 1978. It was later that I realized that the figure was much livelier without the sanding.

I had long assumed that someone who can’t see the difference between a sanded surface and a planed surface just didn’t know what they were looking for, but lately I think that maybe the sharpening or the planing just isn’t that good.

Warren, if there is someone who has the skills with a handplane to get a near perfect surface it is you.

[Rafael Herrera]

I made this table for friends of mine. The wood is cherry. The top surface and the ends were finished with a no. 4. The edges were sanded. The finish is Tried and True varnish and it did require a bit of sanding. I rather not sand if I can help it and with flat surfaces that's what I aim for.

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[Mark Rainey]

I made this table for friends of mine. The wood is cherry. The top surface and the ends were finished with a no. 4. The edges were sanded. The finish is Tried and True varnish and it did require a bit of sanding. I rather not sand if I can help it and with flat surfaces that's what I aim for.

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That is a beautiful table Rafael and evidence that a hand planed surface can work. If you were to put an extreme raking light on that top what evidence of hand plane work would you see? A follow up comment might be that it doesn’t matter.

[Mark Rainey]

Warren, if there is someone who has the skills with a handplane to get a near perfect surface it is you.
Warren, I would be willing to visit your shop with my light and take tips from you. Let me know if you have the time. I can bring you a nice stick of cherry wood.

[Phil Gaudio]

I made a pair of these tables years ago when I first got into WW. No sandpaper was harmed during the production of these tables: I was going the purist, hand plane route. They still look good years later. Nowadays I sand: its just easier, and I get a better finish. To each his own.
https://i.postimg.cc/MHqv0XVh/IMG-3441.jpg (https://postimg.cc/KkpGxG9N)
https://i.postimg.cc/BnVPWSfK/IMG-3440.jpg (https://postimg.cc/CRbxkV1h)

[Jason Buresh]

A follow up comment might be that it doesn’t matter.

I know I'm not Rafael, but I guess the most important thing here is what's important to you? Are you looking for the absolute perfect surface finish or are you looking for the absolute perfect surface finish with a hand plane?

I, personally, never understood the obsession some people have with chasing machine tolerances with hand tools. Not saying that's what you are trying to achieve, but some people do. Hand tools and machines are different, therefore we should have different expectations in my opinion.

If we are using machines, we should expect tight tolerances. The machines are generally built to work accurately and precisely, such and planers, jointers, table saws, etc. Surfaces created with these tools should be free of defects and flat and square as possible.

On the other hand, hand tools are powered by humans, not electrons and wires. Humans by nature are not perfect, so to expect machine results with human powered tools is, to me, not the point of hand tools. I'm not saying this is an excuse to get sloppy, but a guy can drive himself mad chasing machine tolerances with hand tools. I have built bookcases, chairs, toolboxes, cutting boards, etc all with hand tools and each one has it's hints it was made by hand. I see these as a sign of my skill with these tools that is somewhat of a lost art and less of an imperfection. If a bevel is not a perfect 45 or if there is a .010 dip in a board, I can live with that.

I'm sorry for the philosophical sounding rambling, but I guess it was a really long way to say that there is no shame in wanting to improve your planing skills, but if you want machine like accuracy it is much faster and easier to use a machine.

[Mark Rainey]

I enjoy your philosophical thoughts Jason. I have a couple reasons for this post… 1. I am soliciting pics of handplane work in a severe raking light similar to mine. Please refrain from critique on my handplane skills until you show me your top in a severe raking light. 2. Why do almost all forum members, even if skilled in handplanes, ultimately finish with sandpaper when submitting their work to a wide audience ( such as our project forum or Fine Woodworking)?. Phil, you had a gorgeous piece a year or two ago in Fine Woodworking. Did that table top see any sandpaper?

[David Sochar]

Mark - What do you want to see? The clean crisp cut surface catches light in a way only a hand planed or scraped surface does. The sander produces a smooth top that has other characteristics different from a cut surface. Neither is better than the other. Both can be Fine Woodwork (non-specific term).

As an (assumed?) amateur, why do you work wood? To give yourself pleasure? Or others?

Ah yes, the self examination begins.....

[Phil Gaudio]

I enjoy your philosophical thoughts Jason. I have a couple reasons for this post… 1. I am soliciting pics of handplane work in a severe raking light similar to mine. Please refrain from critique on my handplane skills until you show me your top in a severe raking light. 2. Why do almost all forum members, even if skilled in handplanes, ultimately finish with sandpaper when submitting their work to a wide audience ( such as our project forum or Fine Woodworking)?. Phil, you had a gorgeous piece a year or two ago in Fine Woodworking. Did that table top see any sandpaper?

Thanks for the compliment! Yes I utilized sandpaper with abandon on that piece, although I will frequently remove machine marks from legs with a plane before sanding. The top, which is the money view, got all kinds of sandpaper followed by PolyX oil/wax finish. If I set up one of my smoothing planes and dial it in just right, I can get an absolutely beautiful result. However, I can get at least as good or better with sandpaper. I think its something that you have to experiment with so you get a feel for the process either way. On the small end tables I posted above, you can feel the plane tracks (although in my defense they are minor), and that gives it just the extra "hand built" feel, for what its worth..

[Mark Rainey]

Mark - What do you want to see? The clean crisp cut surface catches light in a way only a hand planed or scraped surface does. The sander produces a smooth top that has other characteristics different from a cut surface. Neither is better than the other. Both can be Fine Woodwork (non-specific term).

As an (assumed?) amateur, why do you work wood? To give yourself pleasure? Or others?

Ah yes, the self examination begins.....

Good questions David, I want to see the best piece I can make. I work wood for my pleasure, my family, and when the opportunity arises, others. When my piece is being viewed by other woodworkers, I want to do the best I can. There is more pressure when other woodworkers inspect my work.

I guessed right with Phil. When playing with the "big boys" and submitting to Fine Woodworking, he admits resorting to sandpaper. And he is very skilled with handplanes as evidenced by the earlier fine piece he posted. Being that I am on a roll, I would guess Derek, guru of planes of all types ( bevel up, bevel down, high angle, tight mouth, close chipbreaker, razor sharpness ) scrapers of various types ( flexible spring steel, homemade rigid thick metal etc ) used sandpaper on his lovely curved chest of drawers published in Fine Woodworking

[Warren Mickley]

Some of this is more like sophistry than philosophy. You can’t just sit in an armchair and make stuff up. Getting a good surface with a smoothing plane is much faster than sanding. And it pays dividends with subsequent finishing steps as well.

Likewise, precision is not difficult with hand work and skill.

[Rafael Herrera]

There were no planing marks on the top surface, the bottom surface of the table was left somewhat rough.

I'm not sure what machine precision has to do with having a surface finished with a smoother. As I said above, I don't care to sand flat surfaces, I don't want to deal with the dust or the noise of electric sanders.

I also do not associate using mostly hand tools with a final product that will be crooked or rough because machines were not involved. Why would you draw that conclusion?

[Jason Buresh]

There were no planing marks on the top surface, the bottom surface of the table was left somewhat rough.

I'm not sure what machine precision has to do with having a surface finished with a smoother. As I said above, I don't care to sand flat surfaces, I don't want to deal with the dust or the noise of electric sanders.

I also do not associate using mostly hand tools with a final product that will be crooked or rough because machines were not involved. Why would you draw that conclusion?

I should have just kept to myself.

The OP said he is having difficulty getting a near perfect surface with hand planes and showed a superior surface left by his sander. He is now asking others who use hand planes to set up a light and prove they don't leave marks before accepting their opinions.

I'm not saying that one should get sloppy or careless using hand tools and leave surfaces rough or crooked or that hand tools are not capable of precision.

My point is if you are demanding a surface that is 100% free of any evidence that it was ever touched by a hand plane, and you go through the trouble of setting up a light to expose and eliminate the marks left by said hand plane, well then a hand plane isn't the right tool for the job and the OP should continue using his sander.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I make no particular claims about possessing any particular level of skill with hand planes, but here’s an example with extreme raking sunlight on a freshly smooth planed piece of somewhat stringy edge-glued aspen purchased years ago from the green BORG.
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The grain direction is inconsistent between the individual boards on this piece, but with a close set cap iron and sharp enough iron that didn’t seem to be much of a problem. Other woods would likely be more challenging.

The shavings show some of the stringy character.
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For what it’s worth, I agree with Warren about the time spent finishing: with a planed finish I spend much less time getting a similar end result. I do not sand prior to finishing.

[Rafael Herrera]

The OP said he is having difficulty getting a near perfect surface with hand planes and showed a superior surface left by his sander. He is now asking others who use hand planes to set up a light and prove they don't leave marks before accepting their opinions.

I'm not saying that one should get sloppy or careless using hand tools and leave surfaces rough or crooked or that hand tools are not capable of precision.

My point is if you are demanding a surface that is 100% free of any evidence that it was ever touched by a hand plane, and you go through the trouble of setting up a light to expose and eliminate the marks left by said hand plane, well then a hand plane isn't the right tool for the job and the OP should continue using his sander.

If you are talking about the tracks left by the corner of the smoothing plane iron, this is what I have done to deal with that: re-sharpen (by hand) the iron applying extra pressure on the corners to impart a small camber and/or round off the corners. Depending on: (1) the depth of cut, (2) the amount of camber, and (3) the lateral adjustment, one can create track marks with the smoother. Adjusting those variables is how I erase/prevent those marks.

I went through that process with the cherry coffee table and made sure no track marks were left. I used a flashlight.

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A prepared and fitted cap iron will mitigate tear out and you can get a surface that can reflect an image, like a mirror, if you sight the surface at a shallow angle. You won't get that effect on a sanded surface. I like that finish, I wouldn't claim it's a perfect surface. Also, I've not measured it, but I'm pretty sure finishing with a smoother is faster than going through a progression of 3 or more sandpaper grit.

None of these stuff is new, nor I came up with it. I've seen all these described here and there in this and other forums. I'm skeptical of opinions that favor buying premium planes or other gimmicks about high bed angles, close mouths, etc.

A non-defective Bailey pattern plane is a very good plane. During the cherry table making, when it came to cutting it to the final length, I cut the ends with a handheld circular saw. At first I used a low angle block plane with an A2 cutter, the edge kept chipping and I was getting track marks, took a while to get a clean surface. Then I switched to a smoother from the rack, it took minutes to get the result shown in the picture, from the rough cut on the left to the finished surface on the right. It was not a special plane, just a well set up one. Anyone can do this, most of the planes out there can be made to work well.

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I hope the OP re-tune his planes (if that's what they need) and give them another chance.

Rafael

[Jason Buresh]

If you are talking about the tracks left by the corner of the smoothing plane iron, this is what I have done to deal with that: re-sharpen (by hand) the iron applying extra pressure on the corners to impart a small camber and/or round off the corners. Depending on: (1) the depth of cut, (2) the amount of camber, and (3) the lateral adjustment, one can create track marks with the smoother. Adjusting those variables is how I erase/prevent those marks.

I went through that process with the cherry coffee table and made sure no track marks were left. I used a flashlight.

488043

A prepared and fitted cap iron will mitigate tear out and you can get a surface that can reflect an image, like a mirror, if you sight the surface at a shallow angle. You won't get that effect on a sanded surface. I like that finish, I wouldn't claim it's a perfect surface. Also, I've not measured it, but I'm pretty sure finishing with a smoother is faster than going through a progression of 3 or more sandpaper grit.

None of these stuff is new, nor I came up with it. I've seen all these described here and there in this and other forums. I'm skeptical of opinions that favor buying premium planes or other gimmicks about high bed angles, close mouths, etc.

A non-defective Bailey pattern plane is a very good plane. During the cherry table making, when it came to cutting it to the final length, I cut the ends with a handheld circular saw. At first I used a low angle block plane with an A2 cutter, the edge kept chipping and I was getting track marks, took a while to get a clean surface. Then I switched to a smoother from the rack, it took minutes to get the result shown in the picture, from the rough cut on the left to the finished surface on the right. It was not a special plane, just a well set up one. Anyone can do this, most of the planes out there can be made to work well.

488044

I hope the OP re-tune his planes (if that's what they need) and give them another chance.

Rafael

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the OP also claims the lines he's seeing are not tracks.

Even if you round over the edges of an iron, the iron still has to cut into the wood to make a shaving. Even with the lightest of cut and the utmost care, the iron still has to cut to a depth deeper than the surface and will, at least in theory, leave a "shoulder" from a cut. Even if that "shoulder" is .002 of an inch and is virtually undetectable by feel and eye, it may still show up under the OP's light apparently. That is why you try to take overlapping strokes and minimal depth of cut when smoothing to minimize this.

Which is again why if the OP is worried about someone taking a special light to his project to check for hand plane marks he should just use a sander.

I personally like a hand planed surface. I hate the noise, dust, and vibration that sanders produce and the amount of time a plane saves me from having to sand through multiple grits and clean all the fine dust from shop is well worth a minor little line that only shows up in a fancy light in my opinion. Its up to the OP to decide what works best for him and leave it at that.

[Mark Rainey]

I should have just kept to myself.


Jason, I welcome your valuable perspective and I thank you for your input

[Mark Rainey]

I hope the OP re-tune his planes (if that's what they need) and give them another chance.

Rafael

Thanks for your pics and input. Us Neanders do not give up easily!

[Mark Rainey]

I make no particular claims about possessing any particular level of skill with hand planes, but here’s an example with extreme raking sunlight on a freshly smooth planed piece of somewhat stringy edge-glued aspen purchased years ago from the green BORG.
488025
The grain direction is inconsistent between the individual boards on this piece, but with a close set cap iron and sharp enough iron that didn’t seem to be much of a problem. Other woods would likely be more challenging.

The shavings show some of the stringy character.
488026

For what it’s worth, I agree with Warren about the time spent finishing: with a planed finish I spend much less time getting a similar end result. I do not sand prior to finishing.

Thanks for your pics Michael. I do see some subtle evidence of plane use - I do not think it can get any less than that and I am sure that will result in a beautiful finished surface.

[Mark Rainey]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the OP also claims the lines he's seeing are not tracks.

Thank you Jason. That is my claim.
Which is again why if the OP is worried about someone taking a special light to his project to check for hand plane marks he should just use a sander.

Unfortunately it is more complex than that for many woodworkers Jason. It is very likely that a hand plane finish can look just as good ( or even better in the opinion of a few ) for most pieces. And as Neanders we love our hand planes, the swoosh of shavings, the lack of dust, the history of the tool in the hand, etc. But I theorize almost all woodworkers, even Neanders, will weaken near the end of the smoothing process, and grab for the sandpaper WHEN their work will be scrutinized by other woodworkers with a discerning eye. Phil is expert with hand plane use and his first piece is beautiful. But he admits that he thinks he can do a little bit better with sandpaper and when finishing his spectacular table shown in Fine Woodworker he did use sandpaper. In my hand plane courage forum last year Charles Guest summarized things nicely. The state of the art for most show pieces involves sandpaper, right or wrong.

[Rafael Herrera]

I don't know if there's a difference between the raking light he used and a flashlight, but if he was seeing scalloping marks, then my guess is that he was taking shavings that were too thick. I'm just guessing, I don't think I run into that kind of problem as I reduce the thickness of the shavings as I get close to my final smoothing passes. I also do not worry too much about having to get full shavings, since if one puts a moderate camber then one may feel tempted to take thick shavings and create grooves

This is just a test piece of very dry oak, about 3" wide. It tears out if you retract the chipbreaker. With a sharp plane and fine shavings you can get it like this. It looks flat and feels flat, I can't see scalloping marks.

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Listen, I do not presume to be an authority on this, there are probably several ways to achieve a nice flat finish. This is what I do to my flat surfaces, for better or worse :).

Here are a few examples of more hand planed pieces I made in the shop. This one is a two piece laminated mahogany little board, just a test piece, before and after oil finish.

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A crotch walnut oilstone box lid, with an oil finish.

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At the very least, with small pieces, the plane works well.

On large table tops, perhaps it is not as straightforward.

Rafael

[Jason Buresh]

Jason, I welcome your valuable perspective and I thank you for your input

And after all that I guess I never gave you what you were asking for. Here a piece of maple that would be considered ready for finish in my shop.

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[Jason Buresh]

Jason, I welcome your valuable perspective and I thank you for your input


And here is the same board with a coating of oil and paste wax. I did the best I could with what I have to simulate your lighting.

488067488068

[Mark Rainey]

I don't know if there's a difference between the raking light he used and a flashlight, but if he was seeing scalloping marks, then my guess is that he was taking shavings that were too thick. I'm just guessing, I don't think I run into that kind of problem as I reduce the thickness of the shavings as I get close to my final smoothing passes. I also do not worry too much about having to get full shavings, since if one puts a moderate camber then one may feel tempted to take thick shavings and create grooves

This is just a test piece of very dry oak, about 3" wide. It tears out if you retract the chipbreaker. With a sharp plane and fine shavings you can get it like this. It looks flat and feels flat, I can't see scalloping marks.

488056

Listen, I do not presume to be an authority on this, there are probably several ways to achieve a nice flat finish. This is what I do to my flat surfaces, for better or worse :).

Here are a few examples of more hand planed pieces I made in the shop. This one is a two piece laminated mahogany little board, just a test piece, before and after oil finish.

488059488060

A crotch walnut oilstone box lid, with an oil finish.

488061

At the very least, with small pieces, the plane works well.

On large table tops, perhaps it is not as straightforward.

Rafael

Impressive hand plane work Rafael. I like the raking light pic

[Mark Rainey]

And here is the same board with a coating of oil and paste wax. I did the best I could with what I have to simulate your lighting.

488067488068


Thanks for the pics Jason. That surface is baby bottom smooth.

[Jason Buresh]

Thanks for the pics Jason. That surface is baby bottom smooth.



If I may offer two techniques for your consideration.

The first, which you may know already, is grabbing a handful of shavings and rubbing them across the surface with pressure can help burnish things out and smooth the surface of the wood. The wood is slightly abrasive and acts almost like, dare I say, sandpaper.

The second, and I have no experience with this, is a pollisoir from Don's barn. Don Williams made a tool from Roubo's book that is used to prep the surface of the wood for finish. Again, I haven't tested one, but Don has a convincing video and writings on it use. It apparently acts as a burnisher and a grain filler.

The tool and writings can be found here:

http://donsbarn.com/pollisoirs/

And the video of it in use can be found here:

https://youtu.be/AtUN8obqB-A

I wish you all the best in your pursuit of the perfect finish.

Jason

[Warren Mickley]

About 40 years ago, Robert Mussey correctly identified Roubo's polissoir as being made of rush, not broom corn. It is designed for spreading wax not for burnishing. In the same section, Roubo identifies several other tools which he calls brunisoirs for burnishing. A rush polissoir is much too soft for burnishing.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Thanks for your pics Michael. I do see some subtle evidence of plane use - I do not think it can get any less than that and I am sure that will result in a beautiful finished surface.

Thanks for the kind words, Mark, though I'm sure there are others who could leave even less evidence of hand plane use than I. I am less than a decade into hand tool use and definitely still improving, including in my hand plane skills.

[Tom Bussey]

I am not disagreeing with anyone. I didn't even read a lot of the answers. But if applying pigmented stain, controlling the color can be difficult without sanding, because there is no place for the pigments to adhere. Oak is usually stained never sand to over 150 grit. Some wood like Cherry and Walnut just beg for just finish over bare wood so it is a different horse, however using a cabinate scraper tends to burnish the wood so a light pass with a high grit sandpaper isn't all that bat of idea.

My disclaimer is it is your work and you are the one responsible for its outcome. Choices

[chuck van dyck]

I am not disagreeing with anyone. I didn't even read a lot of the answers. But if applying pigmented stain, controlling the color can be difficult without sanding, because there is no place for the pigments to adhere. Oak is usually stained never sand to over 150 grit. Some wood like Cherry and Walnut just beg for just finish over bare wood so it is a different horse, however using a cabinate scraper tends to burnish the wood so a light pass with a high grit sandpaper isn't all that bat of idea.

My disclaimer is it is your work and you are the one responsible for its outcome. Choices

I wanted to add this as well but wasn’t sure if it was what the OP was asking for. I’ve really gotten into the habit of using osmo polyx. I like the variety of colors and it is just fool proof. Not always the prettiest option but it is consistent. It doesn’t work well on a plane finished surface in my experience. It can cause a lot of blotchiness. I do most smoothing by plane(kanna) and scraper because I enjoy that type of work, but I always follow up with 180-220 to help penetration of the finish as much as to erase any imperfections. It can be quite overwhelming to try and convince a client that that plane track just adds character, regardless of our personal beliefs.

[Rob Luter]

These folks put on a clinic for smoothing to final finish. Seems like a simple process. LN 4 1/2, razor sharp iron, and shavings so thin they only have one side.

https://www.youtube.com/c/Doucetteandwolfefurniture

[Jim Koepke]

shavings so thin they only have one side.

LOL! My feeling is the sharper the blade and thinner the shaving, with a properly set cap iron, provides the least possibility of tear out.

That video is mesmerizing. It is a beautiful piece being made and the presentation is wonderful. I kept trying to stop watching it and finally at 15 minutes it was either watch the rest (12 more minutes) or close the window. The rest will be watched after breakfast & coffee.

Thanks for posting the link Rob.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

These folks put on a clinic for smoothing to final finish. Seems like a simple process. LN 4 1/2, razor sharp iron, and shavings so thin they only have one side.

https://www.youtube.com/c/Doucetteandwolfefurniture


Nothing stops a debate about Lie-Nielsen hand planes dead in its tracks like posting a Doucette and Wolfe video. Scott Wolfe doesn't seem to have any trouble at all getting them to work.

[Paul Bent]

What was the plane he was using in the video for end grain leveling of dovetails? Had a knob for a rear tote if I remember.

[Warren Mickley]

Nothing stops a debate about Lie-Nielsen hand planes dead in its tracks like posting a Doucette and Wolfe video. Scott Wolfe doesn't seem to have any trouble at all getting them to work.

I don't know about Scott Wolfe, but I have seen Matthew Wolfe plane a number of times on promotional videos. It seems he takes a layer off with the hand plane in between planing by machine and sanding. That is not what we have been talking about in this thread.

There is nothing wrong with Lie Nielsen Planes that an upgrade iron, a good cap iron and an experienced worker cannot fix.

[Phil Gaudio]

What was the plane he was using in the video for end grain leveling of dovetails? Had a knob for a rear tote if I remember.

Lie-Nielsen No. 9 Iron Miter Plane: frequently available on eBay, for a price.

[Rafael Herrera]

What is there to discuss about a highly curated video showing taking a few shavings?

The final products are very nice looking pieces and that's a credit to these woodworkers, they know how to make fine furniture.

To draw a causal connection between these pieces and using LN planes is just perpetuating a myth, in my opinion.

We've shown already that a good surface can be achieved with a decent vintage plane. Boutique planes can do the same, if you want to use them, then go for it.

This gets rehashed over and over all the time. Boutique planes are good planes, but very expensive. Vintage planes are as good and are much more affordable.

[Jim Koepke]

What is there to discuss about a highly curated video showing taking a few shavings?
The final products are very nice looking pieces and that's a credit to these woodworkers, they know how to make fine furniture.
To draw a causal connection between these pieces and using LN planes is just perpetuating a myth, in my opinion.
We've shown already that a good surface can be achieved with a decent vintage plane. Boutique planes can do the same, if you want to use them, then go for it.
This gets rehashed over and over all the time. Boutique planes are good planes, but very expensive. Vintage planes are as good and are much more affordable.

Especially considering at least one plane was a Veritas (the shooting plane).

I am an advocate of using vintage planes. This often requires one to get up early on the weekends and go out hunting for yard sales and such. It also often requires one to do a bit of fettling to bring an old neglected hunk of iron into usable shape. Many folks would prefer to pay the price for something they do not need to "fix".

Some of the modern planes do have advantages over the original vintage planes. In my case three of my LN planes two have been great users. The third, a low angle block plane, is too heavy for my hand (old injury).

The LN bench planes are all of the Bedrock design. In some cases this is better than the common Bailey design. The LN & Veritas planes also have considerably less adjustment backlash than a vintage plane.

My Veritas Shooting Plane is amazing and worth every penny. It is used more often than any of my LN planes. It actually replaced the low angle jack that was mostly used as a shooting plane.

It sometimes haunts me that when purchasing the LN #62 I was tempted to purchase the #9 instead. I think it was a matter of price that swayed my opinion towards the #62. The #9 sure seems to have a better price appreciation compared to the #62.

jtk

[Rob Luter]

What is there to discuss about a highly curated video showing taking a few shavings?

The final products are very nice looking pieces and that's a credit to these woodworkers, they know how to make fine furniture.

To draw a causal connection between these pieces and using LN planes is just perpetuating a myth, in my opinion.

We've shown already that a good surface can be achieved with a decent vintage plane. Boutique planes can do the same, if you want to use them, then go for it.

This gets rehashed over and over all the time. Boutique planes are good planes, but very expensive. Vintage planes are as good and are much more affordable.

My intent was to show that it's possible with a well tuned plane and some knowhow. The fact that they use a LN #4 1/2 is happenstance. LV makes products that will perform the same way. I've had some vintage pieces that perform well too, but in my experience they were pretty fussy to get set just right. A few years ago I divested myself of all my vintage smoothers and replaced them with modern versions. Good results have been much easier to achieve.

[Keegan Shields]

Man some of these wood surface pictures post-smoothing are amazing. Looks like I need another 10 years of practice. :)

[Rafael Herrera]

Man some of these wood surface pictures post-smoothing are amazing. Looks like I need another 10 years of practice. :)

Don't sell yourself short!

It took me less than two years to learn how to get the results I've shown above.

In my opinion, dismissing irrelevant advice, for example, "get rid of backlash"; or shortcuts, "buy expensive planes", "buy aftermarket irons", allowed me to focus on what is important: learn how to sharpen, prepare the chipbreaker.

It's that simple, everything else will fall in place from there.

--

A side story for you guys. Another hobby of mine is Tango dancing. There is a small industry out there trying to get you take dance classes so you can learn complicated dance moves from famous teachers. The message is that to be a good dancer you need to learn all these moves. So, you take these classes and they try to teach you these complicated body postures and sequences. Novice dancers are the ones most likely to take these classes. An old visiting tango dancer and teacher gave me a simple advice once, "learn how to just walk with your dance partner, everything else will follow from there", that's it, just walk to the music. That's what I do, and when I go dancing, I and the women I dance with have a lot of fun.

P.S. Of course, there's nothing wrong with fancy dancing, some people like to dance that way and have lots of fun as well. The same applies to tools, if you like modern tools, use them and enjoy them.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I really like finishing off of the plane. In the raw or with a very thin finish like danish oil, it looks superior. But when I've tried to build up a finish, like a full-gloss french polish, I start to see the tiniest deviations in the surface. It seems if the blade comes out of the cut at all during a stroke it will leave evidence, though it may not appear until you start to build up a real gloss. So you really need to take uninterrupted full width shavings as much as possible, which is limiting when it comes to finish planing assembled pieces. Even with full strokes, in the right light you can see the tiny ridges that the subtle camber of a smoothing blade leaves, if the finish is reflective enough.

[Jim Koepke]

In my opinion, dismissing irrelevant advice, for example, "get rid of backlash"; or shortcuts, "buy expensive planes", "buy aftermarket irons", allowed me to focus on what is important: learn how to sharpen, prepare the chipbreaker.

Good point Rafael. Here are a couple of shots of a piece of poplar, ~4X10X7', taken from saw marks on all four sides to smooth:

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That is a type 6 #4-1/2 with a Stanley blade. It is possibly the most finicky plane in my shop. It was recently replaced with a type 8 #4-1/2. The type 6 has a major problem and may end up being sold for a parts plane.

It goes to show one doesn't need a boutique plane to get good results.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

I really like finishing off of the plane. In the raw or with a very thin finish like danish oil, it looks superior. But when I've tried to build up a finish, like a full-gloss french polish, I start to see the tiniest deviations in the surface. It seems if the blade comes out of the cut at all during a stroke it will leave evidence, though it may not appear until you start to build up a real gloss. So you really need to take uninterrupted full width shavings as much as possible, which is limiting when it comes to finish planing assembled pieces. Even with full strokes, in the right light you can see the tiny ridges that the subtle camber of a smoothing blade leaves, if the finish is reflective enough.

Interrupted passes indeed can leave a visible mark and those would definitely telegraph through the finish.

I'm not a professional woodworker, my hobby projects are not very complicated, but my flat surfaces are not that bad and finish well with oil finishes. I have yet to try a large french polish finish, I usually just apply shellac with a brush and then bring it down to a satin finish with steel wool and wax.

Regarding plane marks, I planed the bevels of this small piece of crotch walnut with a no. 4. In the final passes, a closed set cap iron and fine shavings produced a very nice surface. What you see is a linseed oil and resin finish on it. After the first coat I noticed a track mark left by the iron, a couple of careful passes go rid of it. I can't see any ridges on the surface and I'm looking really hard at it.

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The iron of the no.4 was cambered and the corners rounded up a bit. My irons are sharpened by hand, the sides always get an extra bit of pressure to achieve some camber, enough so that I can feel that the burr on the sides feels bigger there than in the middle. The edge is not straight, not like what you would get if you were to use a honing guide, but also not so curved that you would notice with the naked eye. That what I used.

If there are ridges left by the plane and you can't see them before you apply a glossy finish, then that's is something I need to check for myself before I make sweeping statements about it... or post someone else's youtube video ;-)

At the end of the day, if all that's needed is a light pass of a fine sandpaper, that is miles ahead of running around with a ROS to finish a surface.

[Charles Guest]

What is there to discuss about a highly curated video showing taking a few shavings?

The final products are very nice looking pieces and that's a credit to these woodworkers, they know how to make fine furniture.

To draw a causal connection between these pieces and using LN planes is just perpetuating a myth, in my opinion.

We've shown already that a good surface can be achieved with a decent vintage plane. Boutique planes can do the same, if you want to use them, then go for it.

This gets rehashed over and over all the time. Boutique planes are good planes, but very expensive. Vintage planes are as good and are much more affordable.

One of my takeaways from the Doucette & Wolfe videos, given the totality of the equipment on display, is that he (they're) too busy building actual furniture to have time for a lot of tool rehab projects. $400 bucks for a boutique hand plane is nothing when you've got thousands of dollars in booked commissions hanging in the balance. Probably not going to see them sweating bullets over flattening the sole of an early Stanley or haunting websites looking for an original replacement part while the 'Jones commission' for eight dining chairs and a table to go with sits in the shop, undone.

That said, I think I recall seeing him using a vintage Stanley compass plane which happens to be a plane that either works or it doesn't -- not a lot of rehab possibilities other than honing the iron and using it.

[Rafael Herrera]

One of my takeaways from the Doucette & Wolfe videos, given the totality of the equipment on display, is that he (they're) too busy building actual furniture to have time for a lot of tool rehab projects. $400 bucks for a boutique hand plane is nothing when you've got thousands of dollars in booked commissions hanging in the balance. Probably not going to see them sweating bullets over flattening the sole of an early Stanley or haunting websites looking for an original replacement part while the 'Jones commission' for eight dining chairs and a table to go with sits in the shop, undone.

That's the least persuasive argument in favor of buying boutique planes to offer to a hobbyist woodworker. What else does he or she have in more abundance than time?

I have a friend that has tens of thousands of dollars in single commissions, I doubt he has given hand planes a second thought. I'm certainly not basing my decisions on how he outfits his shop or how he builds his furniture.

A novice woodworker asking for help gets really bad advice sometimes regarding what planes to get. Someone I know, trying to get into the hobby, was told to buy a LN smoother, he proceeded to get one at an exorbitant price, I don't think he has ever used it, afraid to muck it up. He got bad advice.

[Charles Guest]

That's the least persuasive argument in favor of buying boutique planes to offer to a hobbyist woodworker. What else does he or she have in more abundance than time?

I have a friend that has tens of thousands of dollars in single commissions, I doubt he has given hand planes a second thought. I'm certainly not basing my decisions on how he outfits his shop or how he builds his furniture.

A novice woodworker asking for help gets really bad advice sometimes regarding what planes to get. Someone I know, trying to get into the hobby, was told to buy a LN smoother, he proceeded to get one at an exorbitant price, I don't think he has ever used it, afraid to muck it up. He got bad advice.

Keep on fettlin' Rafael.

[Jim Koepke]

Keep on fettlin' Rafael.

I've spent more time waiting for a coat of paint to dry than cleaning and fettling a plane. Usually the paint is left to sit overnight or even for a few days.

You are right that a production shop can not spend a lot of time searching for and restoring tools. Though at times all a woodworker can do is wait for a finish to dry or another commission to walk in the door.

When a particular tool wasn't in my kit, it didn't stop me from using what was available to work on projects. It is likely the same in a commercial shop. Many of the tools in a production shop are not purchased all at once. If a tool is going to be making money for a shop, it makes sense to purchase the best one can. For the professional, tool depreciation is a way of life and lowering taxes.

For the hobbyist or amateur, restoring vintage tools can be a great savings and educational. Well, at least it used to be. It seems some of the old Stanley planes have been jumping in price over the last few years.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

I've spent more time waiting for a coat of paint to dry than cleaning and fettling a plane. Usually the paint is left to sit overnight or even for a few days.

You are right that a production shop can not spend a lot of time searching for and restoring tools. Though at times all a woodworker can do is wait for a finish to dry or another commission to walk in the door.

When a particular tool wasn't in my kit, it didn't stop me from using what was available to work on projects. It is likely the same in a commercial shop. Many of the tools in a production shop are not purchased all at once. If a tool is going to be making money for a shop, it makes sense to purchase the best one can. For the professional, tool depreciation is a way of life and lowering taxes.

For the hobbyist or amateur, restoring vintage tools can be a great savings and educational. Well, at least it used to be. It seems some of the old Stanley planes have been jumping in price over the last few years.

jtk

We should talk about multiple copies of the same bench plane, but maybe another day.

[Jim Koepke]

We should talk about multiple copies of the same bench plane, but maybe another day.

Why not today?

A lot of my "multiple copies of the same bench plane" came from a lot of buying and reselling at one time. It was very good for raising money at a time my financial situation wasn't as good as it is now. It helped to pay for tools not available on the used market. It has also allowed me to set up my grandson with a nice set of tools. A few friends have also benefitted from gifted tools or very affordable tools tuned up and ready to go.

Now it helps to have a spare plane with a sharp blade to avoid stopping to sharpen a blade in mid process. It is also nice to have planes set up for different functions. Jack planes can be set up with one as a scrub, one as a short jointer and one as a long smoother. There are also tools in my shop that are great tools but not my first choice on the bench. These are for loaning to neighbors or when I am working on "raw wood" outside the shop. Sometimes these are refered to as "beater" tools. If they get treated like the proverbial "rented mule," it isn't a heart breaking loss if the blade comes back nicked.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Keep on fettlin' Rafael.

That's a more sensible advice.

Here's how simple it is. Newly arrived at my shop, a 1936 Craftsman no. 3 smoother. It took less than one hour the refurbish, it would have taken less time if I had not bothered to clean it as much.

Took multiple smoothing passes on this poplar test piece. I can't see or feel any ridges. It is to be determined if it can take stain or a high gloss finish and not show defects.

488394488395

[Jim Koepke]

That's a more sensible advice.

Here's how simple it is. Newly arrived at my shop, a 1936 Craftsman no. 3 smoother. It took less than one hour the refurbish, it would have taken less time if I had not bothered to clean it as much.

Took multiple smoothing passes on this poplar test piece. I can't see or feel any ridges. It is to be determined if can take stain or a high gloss finish andot show defects.

488394488395

The image isn't clear around the knob and the lateral adjuster isn't visible. Your Craftsman plane looks to be a Millers Falls product. I had one of the same size with the Dunlap name. It worked great after it was fettled, mostly sharpening the blade and adjusting the cap iron. It went home with my grandson.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Your Craftsman plane looks to be a Millers Falls product.

It is, it came with the original box indicating it was a special edition. It was released during Sears' Golden Jubilee year, 1936. The maker was Millers Falls, the left cheek is marked with "3C", the handles are Rosewood, no frog adjustment screw. It was really well made.

To be honest, the reason I got it was because of the handle, I really liked it. That it is a good plane is a bonus.

[Mark Rainey]

but if he was seeing scalloping marks, then my guess is that he was taking shavings that were too thick. I'm just guessing, I don't think I run into that kind of problem as I reduce the thickness of the shavings as I get close to my final smoothing passes.



Rafael

I think you are right Rafael. When I used my smoother I was happy to have a cambered blade and a close chipbreaker that resulted in compressed shavings. I had just watched a David Weaver video and was happy to have no tearout. But my scallops were too deep. So I took your advice to decrease my shavings to a wispy thickness and I noted a marked improvement in my surface.

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The surface is near perfect. Thanks Rafael, Jason, Michael, Warren, Jim, and others. There are still some very subtle plane marks and it is near perfect around the little knot holes. I am sure a hand planed surface can be beautiful. Some in this thread have preferred final hand sanding to attempt an even more near perfect finish, especially if the piece will get high visibility. It's your choice.

[Rob Luter]

I’ve been following this thread with some interest. I’ve aspired to leave a “finish ready” surface right off the smoother, but rarely work with wood where that makes a difference. 90% of my projects are in QSWO and find a final burnishing with a wad of shavings or a Scotchbrite pad makes for a more authentic A&C finish.

[Rafael Herrera]

Here's a quarter sawn white oak piece, the planed surface looks as shown below. On the first picture the surface is planed against the grain, on the second picture the same section but planed with the grain. In both examples very small fibers stick out of the wood vessels (pores), they can be felt with the fingers and be seen with the help of the flashlight. On the third picture these fiber are eliminated by burnishing the surface with some shavings, the surface feels smooth to the touch. I would consider this surface ready for finish, but others may have a different opinion.

488561

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-----------

Extra trivia: the plane I used was the $44 Stanley no. 4 one can get at the home center. The iron is a replacement I made out of Starrett O1 bar stock, heat treatment courtesy of David Weaver.

488565

[Rafael Herrera]

But my scallops were too deep. So I took your advice to decrease my shavings to a wispy thickness and I noted a marked improvement in my surface.

The surface is near perfect.

Glad you were able to achieve this improvement, I'm sure you can do even better.

[Rob Luter]

Thanks for those pics Rafael. I've never noticed the little fuzzies in the pores of QSWO. That said, I always blow them out with compressed air or hit them with a brush and vacuum as a last step before finishing. It's amazing the stuff that can get stuck in them and have an impact on dye and stain.

[Rafael Herrera]

Thanks for those pics Rafael. I've never noticed the little fuzzies in the pores of QSWO. That said, I always blow them out with compressed air or hit them with a brush and vacuum as a last step before finishing. It's amazing the stuff that can get stuck in them and have an impact on dye and stain.

That test piece is QS, but now I'm not 100% sure it's white oak. It's very dry, not easy to plane and prone to tear out if the iron is not sharp. Those fuzzies are lodged there, air blowing them doesn't get rid of them.

I've another board that I'm more confident is white oak, the side I planed is 1 3/4" wide. The surface after planing does not have those fuzzies and looks as good as I can imagine it's gonna get. This board is also not as hard to take shavings from as the other one.

488616

[Warren Mickley]

In white oak the pores are "occluded with tyloses". That is to say they have thin membranes which close off the pores. Red oak does not have these membranes and it is for this reason that white oak can be used for barrels and red oak cannot.

White oak also tends to have a single row of pores for each ring visible on the radial surface. Red oak, unless it is stunted, usually has two or three rows of pores per ring.

In Pennsylvania there are about a dozen oak species, which are separated into white oak and red oak groups for lumber. The white oak would include trees like white oak, chestnut oak, and burr oak, while the red oak group includes trees like red oak, scarlet oak, and pin oak.

[Rafael Herrera]

I quickly planed the end grains of my two oak test pieces. This one is the first one I posted, the one with the fuzzies.

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This is the end grain of the second piece.

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Not conclusive since the pictures are not detailed enough, both white oak?

[James Pallas]

I think it’s your choice how you want to finish. I prefer a cut surface. I know that some prefer sanding. I understand the view that when staining the color seems more even. I like the definition of a cut surface. If you look at a sanded surface with a lense you can see the effect. It looks to me like frayed rope. With an ROS you can even see the twisting of the fibers. I’ve not tested it. the effect may be a lot different if hand sanding with a block in one direction. You can test this easily for yourself. Just plane some end grain oak, take a look, ROS the same piece have another look. As far as flat goes I do better with a plane. I seem to get long rolling hills with a hand held power sander. I do sometimes use a #80 scraper and take full length cuts if possible. The picture is the bottom of a box I made a few years back it’s about 1x1 1/2/ feet. Only thing I could find with some kind of light on it. It is walnut with no finish right off the plane.
Jim

[Ben Ellenberger]

Here’s a cherry tote that was planed and scraped. I did a quick final rub-down with a green 3M pad. The finish is three coats of shellac.

Of course, now I see a little deviation on one corner that I didn’t see before I took these pictures…

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[Jim Koepke]

Of course, now I see a little deviation on one corner that I didn’t see before I took these pictures…

It looks great, the deviation should be a quick fix.

jtk

[Mark Rainey]

Here’s a cherry tote that was planed and scraped. I did a quick final rub-down with a green 3M pad. The finish is three coats of shellac.

Of course, now I see a little deviation on one corner that I didn’t see before I took these pictures…

488973488974

That is a fine tote Ben. And a little "deviation" does not take away from the finished product. Your hand tool work is impressive. And I reiterate...I think a hand tool finish can be equal or for some, even superior to a sanded finish. For most, however, we finish with sandpaper in a show piece because we like to avoid any "deviation". Perhaps this discourages the perfection of hand tool skills. Keep the pics coming! Thanks Ben.

[Rob Luter]

Here’s a cherry tote that was planed and scraped. I did a quick final rub-down with a green 3M pad. The finish is three coats of shellac.

Of course, now I see a little deviation on one corner that I didn’t see before I took these pictures…

488973488974

I really like that. Does the box portion have angled sides or is it just the distortion from the camera lens?

[Ben Ellenberger]

Yes, the sides splay out slightly. The ends are vertical.

I’ve made a tote with splay on both the sides and the end, but I’m not convinced that would look good when I’ve attached the handle this way. I have thought about making the handle uprights with a curve, so if the end splays the uprights become vertical by the time the handle attaches. I may sketch a few ideas out and try that somewhere down the road.

[Mark Rainey]

I think it’s your choice how you want to finish. I prefer a cut surface. I know that some prefer sanding. I understand the view that when staining the color seems more even. I like the definition of a cut surface. If you look at a sanded surface with a lense you can see the effect. It looks to me like frayed rope. With an ROS you can even see the twisting of the fibers. I’ve not tested it. the effect may be a lot different if hand sanding with a block in one direction. You can test this easily for yourself. Just plane some end grain oak, take a look, ROS the same piece have another look. As far as flat goes I do better with a plane. I seem to get long rolling hills with a hand held power sander. I do sometimes use a #80 scraper and take full length cuts if possible. The picture is the bottom of a box I made a few years back it’s about 1x1 1/2/ feet. Only thing I could find with some kind of light on it. It is walnut with no finish right off the plane.
Jim

Nice finish on the box James.