Freeborn vs Garniga insert

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I need an insert cabinet door set, Garniga is 2x the cost of Freeborn, wondering why? I've never used insert cabinet tooling, I've always used Freeborn brazed. I do have some Garniga tooling for some other processes and think their manufacturing has to be more expensive. Is that the only functional difference? Thinking Freeborn IC 10-050 vs Garniga R1CD1601925 (type F profile).

[David Zaret]

I need an insert cabinet door set, Garniga is 2x the cost of Freeborn, wondering why? I've never used insert cabinet tooling, I've always used Freeborn brazed. I do have some Garniga tooling for some other processes and think their manufacturing has to be more expensive. Is that the only functional difference? Thinking Freeborn IC 10-050 vs Garniga R1CD1601925 (type F profile).

(edited as i misread to assume freeborn brazed vs. insert)

do you mean the rangate set? from zuani? i have freeborn braized and the rangate set. the rangate cutter is far superior to the brazed - i can't speak to the freeborn insert.

the rangate has better geometry (than the smaller brazed heads) including a larger diameter which changes the cutting angle. can you run multiple profiles on the freeborn set?


--dz

[brent stanley]

I believe it's made by TMT in Italy, branded as Zuani. Looks like $1900 USD for the set which includes one profile. How many doors do you plan on making? The insert sets are fantastic and long lasting but equal quality doors can be made for much less if you don't need the ability to produce mountains of them.

Doesn't look like you can machine different tongue thicknesses on the Freeborn set, not sure about the Zuani set.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I have been using that IC-10 series for multiple profiles from Freeborn for a couple years now, and have no complaints. Particularly like the rounded corner option on the profiles. That option almost completely eliminated tear-out in hickory stock I recently ran, which is highly prone to such issues. I also think that round over really makes your doors look top notch and professional, IMHO.

Saw the Rangate/zuani demonstrated in a shaper class last year. Beautiful tooling, highly advanced engineering for the angle of knives. The intricate machining and slightly larger size contribute to the higher costs. Bought lots of other Rangate tooling since then - all well worth it.

Since I was already invested in the Freeborn and getting very good results, I've stuck with it. They are a larger diameter than brazed, which does clearly contribute to a cleaner cut, free of chatter. Learned to use an outboard fence with power feeder for the sticking work in that class. Excellent, clean, consistent results.

If you want something that looks like a fine piece of jewelry, go for the Rangate.
If your budget is limiting you, I'm confident you'll be more than happy with the Freeborn insert cutter set. To be clear, I'm referring to the "non-dedicated" insert sets. I have one set that works for multiple cope profiles , as well as an offset tongue and groove set. While it was a bit of a gamble, turns out there's still enough shoulder on that offset to do a 1/4" groove centered for straight-up mission/shaker flat panel styles, but majority of what I'm doing lately is raised panels with applied bolection molding, so that groove is offset to the back by a few 32nd's. A very versatile setup, between the two sets, and I don't need to buy a third set of heads for centered tongues when called for.

If you're coming off router bits or smaller brazed shaper heads, I'm confident you'll see the difference and become a convert. Never thought I'd burn this much money on tooling, but then, I just never knew better until trying the larger diameter heads.

jeff

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Just to clarify, I use Freeborn brazed now, interested in an insert head because it can theoretically save some $ to be able to just switch inserts instead of the whole cutter, especially on the one house at a time way that I work. 1 project done, 1 in process and two more coming since I restarted the cabinet shop, and none of them chose the same door profile. However, they are all stock profiles for insert cutters in either of the sets I mentioned.

We build the houses, just good quality average single family homes, pretty traditional face frame choices, it's typically 30 to 40 boxes for a project. Poplar for paint, hickory, alder, oak and walnut for finished.

The Garniga I mentioned is the Rangate. I don't mind spending the $, but I'd also rather not if it doesn't add anything in my shop.

Thanks for the help, lots of good info!

[David Zaret]

steve - owning both, i think you'll notice a dramatic step up in quality with the zuani. i still get reasonable results from my brazed freeborns, but it's somewhat night and day. the larger diameter makes a big difference, and the head is just far superior. i certainly notice the difference in the parts coming off of my shaper.

-- dz

[J.R. Rutter]

A Great Lakes Universal head that takes steel backers and carbide inserts might also be worth looking at. I really like the set I have.

[brent stanley]

Can you adjust the groove thickness on the Garniga set, or are you stuck with the factory design for every door?

[David Zaret]

Can you adjust the groove thickness on the Garniga set, or are you stuck with the factory design for every door?

it's not really adjustable. if you go onto their website, you can see the PDFs that show the various configurations, but in almost all of them (for the cabinet door set) it's set for 6mm panels. personally i just design for this, and it's never an issue - in fact, imperial 1/4" sets give me more trouble, but ... that's me.

the set gives you options for deeper stub tenons, and glass doors, by simply changing the configuration of the cutter body parts and using spacers in various places. 99.5% of my work is the "regular" cope/stick for doors with panels, and glass.

the double-sided set for passage doors does provide a way to change the panel thickness to achieve 1 1/4" - 2 1/2" doors (i think that's the range).

-- dz

[Warren Lake]

they are all a time saving compromise over how doors were made. Door construction driven by tooling manufacturers. Past it was a mortise and tennon and you could do any thickness tennon and place it where you wanted, preferably centered. It could be centered no matter what the profile. Now you have a tongue and and a groove and its placed behind the profile and there is no other way.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Excellent info! A couple questions, is the Freeborn insert the same as their brazed, run cope and stick face down? I see the Zuani/rangate is stick face down, cope face up. Freeborn (and most of the others) are horrible at putting good information out there on the interwebs. A also see the Felder/Hammer set, it's the same diameter as the Freeborn within a mm or so, but it is stick down, cope up too. Maybe that's not that big of a deal to the pros, but I've always liked having one full side of my door reference off the table. In my shop, it keeps the problems limited to the back side of the door if a stock thickness slips through. I'm probably not thinking that through enough to figure out a better system.

The GLCT looks good JR, do you buy through a dealer or direct?

[David Zaret]

Excellent info! A couple questions, is the Freeborn insert the same as their brazed, run cope and stick face down? I see the Zuani/rangate is stick face down, cope face up. Freeborn (and most of the others) are horrible at putting good information out there on the interwebs. A also see the Felder/Hammer set, it's the same diameter as the Freeborn within a mm or so, but it is stick down, cope up too. Maybe that's not that big of a deal to the pros, but I've always liked having one full side of my door reference off the table. In my shop, it keeps the problems limited to the back side of the door if a stock thickness slips through. I'm probably not thinking that through enough to figure out a better system.

The GLCT looks good JR, do you buy through a dealer or direct?


i also have a GLCT head, and JR is right, they are fantastic. don't underestimate the cost of the knives and backer plates, but it's a great system.

[Joe Calhoon]

I demo the Rangate / Zuani cabinet set in our Alpine courses. Just to clarify the manufacture years ago Garniga, Record and Zuani were tooling makers in the same town in Northern Italy. A few years ago Record bought Garniga and then Record and Zuani combined into one company in the Zuani plant where they now operate as TWT.
The head in question is adjustable for tongue thickness. Slight variation for example 0.5 mm by adding shims under the insert grooving knives. Bigger variation by changing to a larger or smaller grooving knife. As David mentioned probably no need to change if working solid wood. The option of doing glass doors is good. Personally I have a 20 year old Garniga multi profile head that works similar. It has the capability to tenon if that is desired. I believe the Rangate head will also by removing cutter #2 and shimming for tenon thickness. Next time I demo it will check that out.Probably not something mainstream kitchen builders would be interested in. It’s a different animal than the Freeborn set with larger diameter, knickers and geometry with sheer cutting. I think Jeff R did a great job of comparing the two cuttersets. I used Freeborn sets for years on house doors sending them back to Freeborn for sharpening to keep the fit exact. I think they make a excellent product, never used their inserts but suspect they would work fine. And sure the cut quality will be good as long as removing the entire edge.
Steve makes a good point about face up and face down on the Rangate head. This is typical of a lot of European Cabinet sets. My old Garniga set works this way and so does a Freud set a customer bought to match some existing cabinets. If using old school shapers and straight knife planers this is probably not the set for you. Any variation in S4S sizes will cause issues and the 2 settings require a height change on the spindle. Bottom line is there are a lot of cabinet sets out there and you just have to pick one that fits your needs and budget.

[Jared Sankovich]

.
Steve makes a good point about face up and face down on the Rangate head. This is typical of a lot of European Cabinet sets. My old Garniga set works this way and so does a Freud set a customer bought to match some existing cabinets. If using old school shapers and straight knife planers this is probably not the set for you. Any variation in S4S sizes will cause issues and the 2 settings require a height change on the spindle. Bottom line is there are a lot of cabinet sets out there and you just have to pick one that fits your needs and budget.

I have a couple different insert heads than are desigined to run the profile face down and cope face up. I just flip the head and run counter clockwise to cope face down. Rather than waist time flipping and adjusting, I just bought multiple sets to leave one as a cope head and one as a sticking head.

[Kevin Jenness]

If using old school shapers and straight knife planers this is probably not the set for you.

Joe, can you explain this further? Do you need cnc positioning or dro's to exploit this type of tooling effectively? Is there something inherent in a straight knife planer that disqualifies it?

[Jeff Roltgen]

is the Freeborn insert the same as their brazed, run cope and stick face down?

Yes. And as Jared pointed out (and you probably figured out already), you can invert/swap feed directions and shaper rotation if face-up processing is desired.

jeff

[Phillip Mitchell]

Joe, can you explain this further? Do you need cnc positioning or dro's to exploit this type of tooling effectively? Is there something inherent in a straight knife planer that disqualifies it?

Not Joe, but I can imagine that the variation possible with setting straight knives in a cutterhead and the potential for less than a perfectly parallel knives to planer bed relationship introduces “error/variable thicknesses” into the S4S process and how those thickness variations can be amplified in error when flipping stock and not just working from a single reference face.

I have struggled with this a bit before in the past and noticed that planer knives were off parallel enough over 20” to cause an issue sometimes with referencing off both sides. Took me a minute to figure out what was going on the first time I noticed it.

[Warren Lake]

you can set up your machine better. Ive never bothered but do set up the cutting circle bang on. If I want better then its going to be adjusting the planer table up on one side. You can run your rail and style material on the same side of your machine for more consistent.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Warren, I am aware of that. The machine is currently setup very well / parallel. It was only the first time I reset the knives and used the OEM aluminum knife setting jig where I got the out of parallel results with the knives. I learned a few things from that...one of them being that I couldn’t trust that knife setting jig and it had likely been bent/damaged over the years. Didn’t feel like typing everything out at once, but should have clarified a bit.

I could be wrong, but I was just speculating on what Joe was mentioning based on my own results early on.

[Kevin Jenness]

Not Joe, but I can imagine that the variation possible with setting straight knives in a cutterhead and the potential for less than a perfectly parallel knives to planer bed relationship introduces “error/variable thicknesses” into the S4S process and how those thickness variations can be amplified in error when flipping stock and not just working from a single reference face.

I have struggled with this a bit before in the past and noticed that planer knives were off parallel enough over 20” to cause an issue sometimes with referencing off both sides. Took me a minute to figure out what was going on the first time I noticed it.

I see your point. I have a knife grinder on my planer and the side to side results are within a few thousandths, but I still prefer to register all joinery operations from one face for simplicity and to force any variations to the opposite face. When I start flipping pieces over my small brain can get confused, so I keep the witness marks visible. The practice is particularly helpful when I am forced to remake a part whose thickness may be off slightly from the rest. As Jeff points out, I will reverse the cutter rotation and orientation if necessary to achieve this.

I used to work with a SCMI S52 that had one of those aluminum setting gauges. The knives may have been parallel to the cutterhead but the table was not quite, and the central column did not lend itself to making it so. The onboard grinder was more nearly parallel to the bed so gradually the side to side results evened out until the knives were reset. The guy who maintained the machine just settled for using the jig and we had to deal with the results. It wasn't off by much but working off one face for stick, cope and mortising for spline tenons ensured consistent assemblies.

[Warren Lake]

I tried one gauge once and maybe I didnt get it, it wasnt even close. I have the SCM aluminum things and never tried them.

Dial I do .0005 accuracy and that cant be achieved without tapping, in other words im coaxing them to assimilate. Head is my reference, knife projection above is .050. This will changed as knives wear no matter what knife system you have. To put level of accuracy in context I emailed Tersa once and they quoted me .0004 accuracy if I remember correctly and id say likely they set the bar.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thought just crossed my mind, relating planer knives to insert shaper tooling, how accurate can you realistically expect the inserts to index? I can see an argument that a brazed cutter could theoretically have tighter tolerances.

[Jeff Roltgen]

how accurate can you realistically expect the inserts to index?

Uh-oh. Another can of worms has been opened...

You certainly are thinking right. Seems insert shaper heads would be much easier to mis-align, especially when compared to carbide inserts on a helical planer cutter head. We've all seen plenty of posts about getting those darn things cleaned and seated properly, yet still, the witness lines can remain...

Which brings us to the point I think most of us have also heard discussed - only one blade of the 2-4 on any given router bit or shaper cutter is making 100% full contact and creating the final profile. Others are there to assist, but as much for balance, just don't expect them all to be cutting precisely the same amount. One is doing 100%, the others are along for the ride, making a profile something like 98-99% of the one who protrudes the most. As an illustration, next time you run any spinning bit, especially a brazed carbide, take a close look at each individual knife when you're done. You'll likely see one cutter has a bit more pitch and dust build up than the others = it's the one making the absolute final shape, when you start measuring in the single digit thousandths. Not advocating sloppy knife seating, but that a certain level of looseness does exist no matter how much we fuss over setups, and that's okay. We can still enjoy excellent results.

Think of all the successes you've had using your existing tooling before we started sweating all these details.
Now realize, no matter which of the great cutters you choose here, I think most of us agree, it really is almost guaranteed to be even better!

jeff

[Phillip Mitchell]

I used to work with a SCMI S52 that had one of those aluminum setting gauges. The knives may have been parallel to the cutterhead but the table was not quite, and the central column did not lend itself to making it so. The onboard grinder was more nearly parallel to the bed so gradually the side to side results evened out until the knives were reset. The guy who maintained the machine just settled for using the jig and we had to deal with the results. It wasn't off by much but working off one face for stick, cope and mortising for spline tenons ensured consistent assemblies.

Yes...hits close to home. Not sure if you remember or not but I’ve had a slightly older SCM S50 for a few years now and it has the same “flaw” inherent in the design. I have managed to get the knives set parallel to the table but not by using the OEM aluminum jig; I do think that my jig has suffered some damaged and is no longer useful unless I want to try and flatten it.

I guess I am fortunate that I am getting parallel results currently with the bed of such a design - the large diameter central column that doesn’t really allow for 4 corner adjustment. The most recent method I have used for knife setting is a pair of Panhans magnetic knife setting gauges that I found used on eBay at some point.

https://www.scosarg.com/panhans-1533-planer-setting-gauges

I have an onboard grinder on mine as well but it does not seem to have the precision of adjustment that I’d hoped...or, put another way, I have yet to find the sweet spot for progressively deeper passes when trying to lightly grind the knives for a quick touch up. Always seems to drop too much like there is some type of backlash in the lowering mechanism which is frustrating and not very repeatable.

My only “long term” irritation/desire with the planer is that I wish it had a Tersa head it in.

[Warren Lake]

some employees work harder than others. You will tell by who has the most pitch on them.

Good point Phillip on the center column not being the best. Likely it can be shimmed if out. Crucial stuff run in the middle. Ive never tested if the height lock makes a difference but I use it anyway. The other planer I have not fired up table is adjustable and rides on two posts instead of the one.

On the shaper on old heads i can adjust in and out of the knife. Then is the shaft true, what is the clearance in the head as it slides over the shaft and is the shaft 90 degrees to the table.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, can you explain this further? Do you need cnc positioning or dro's to exploit this type of tooling effectively? Is there something inherent in a straight knife planer that disqualifies it?

Kevin, no you don’t need CNC to run this set. Just a fussy set up flipping the pieces on a old school shaper, especially if you have to go back and fourth between the cuts. I have run it on my vintage T23. Just a lot more setup. On a shaper like this a easier setup would be separate cope and stick cutters that register the same for fence and shaft serttings.
The planer issue is if you have any thickness variation side to side this will also cause misalignment that will be magnified by the flipping. This can be dealt with also but just makes things harder.

I ran a straight knife SCM planer for 20 years and certainly got by but when we went to all Tersa heads on the planer, jointer and S4Smachine it was a huge difference in the precision and quality of our joinery. The nice thing is you can come back to repeat thickness and width without any fussing. I’m sure the same fo spiral head planing on quality machines. We used to run everything face down as many here mentioned. But now run everything face up with very little variation on either face. Wood is wood and I only try to achieve accuracy to within 0.1 or 0.2mm. Getting this accurate on your S4S just makes all following operations easier.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thought just crossed my mind, relating planer knives to insert shaper tooling, how accurate can you realistically expect the inserts to index? I can see an argument that a brazed cutter could theoretically have tighter tolerances.

Steve, never a problem registering my Tersa planer knives. It’s a pretty fool proof setup.
shaper inserts can certainly have alignment issues though and you just have to use a little care when changing or flipping knives. Manufacturers have patented holding and registering systems with some better than others but all I have used are workable. You can usually visually look at a insert cutter to see if a knife is off slightly. Narrow knives that register against one edge and and a hole can easily get twisted slightly. Usually shows up in the cut. It’s just a feel you get after a little time on inserts to make sure they are right.

Braised carbide probably is closer since ground on the head but the sharpness and tool geometry of the inserts makes for better cuts. I still use a lot of braised tooling. It all has its place.

[J.R. Rutter]

do you buy through a dealer or direct?

I bought direct. Unique sells their heads, too.

[brent stanley]

Thanks for this, it can be a can of worms indeed! Makes things like chip loading calculations hard or controversial.

The manufacturers use different approaches to securing the tips in the block, and most of the big name manufacturers are pretty good but none are really bomb proof, so care and even double checking on a setting stand might be a good idea if you're having problems with fit. That said, I haven't ever personally had to for the insert heads.

A friend and I were talking just a couple of days ago about how often we seem to get a two knife cut with our limiter heads and it was more than half the time which is surprising. Quality blocks and quality grinding make a big difference of course. We also compared a Z2 shear, to a Z4 dual shear to a spiral block in the same piece of wood at moderate feed rates and flipping the piece and the Z4 always performed better. New knives in all. If it was only taking a 1 knife cut, the other three wouldn't have made any difference but they seemed to so it seems to me it would be most accurate to say there will almost always be one knife doing the most work, but in a well tuned block, the other knives are helping and reduce the chip size associated with that one knife which can translate into cut quality. It was a fun little experiment.


Uh-oh. Another can of worms has been opened...

You certainly are thinking right. Seems insert shaper heads would be much easier to mis-align, especially when compared to carbide inserts on a helical planer cutter head. We've all seen plenty of posts about getting those darn things cleaned and seated properly, yet still, the witness lines can remain...

Which brings us to the point I think most of us have also heard discussed - only one blade of the 2-4 on any given router bit or shaper cutter is making 100% full contact and creating the final profile. Others are there to assist, but as much for balance, just don't expect them all to be cutting precisely the same amount. One is doing 100%, the others are along for the ride, making a profile something like 98-99% of the one who protrudes the most. As an illustration, next time you run any spinning bit, especially a brazed carbide, take a close look at each individual knife when you're done. You'll likely see one cutter has a bit more pitch and dust build up than the others = it's the one making the absolute final shape, when you start measuring in the single digit thousandths. Not advocating sloppy knife seating, but that a certain level of looseness does exist no matter how much we fuss over setups, and that's okay. We can still enjoy excellent results.

Think of all the successes you've had using your existing tooling before we started sweating all these details.
Now realize, no matter which of the great cutters you choose here, I think most of us agree, it really is almost guaranteed to be even better!

jeff

[Warren Lake]

Phillip have you ever used the knife grinder then put a dial on and gone side to side measuring off you head to the tip pf the knife to see what you get? not having a machine past with a knife grinder do have one waiting till I have the time.

I did look at the knife set up and knives are pretty sharp little use on them and little pitch but if an onboard grinder was used its useless. Im guessing the knives were sent out and had a pro grind then the knives put in by a moron. Its off the map 10 times worse than any set up ive ever seen machine. It came from a school and Id call it unusable as set up. You could not even set the stuff below the cutter head as the cutting circle is so far out of whack.

I was told the knife grinder was gone but after my usual Colombo persistence its sitting with the machine. Later told by a higher up there up the grinder wasnt in the ad. Told him your teacher told me it was gone. You would have found it then to scrap, a part of a machine with history. Nice respect you have for machinery, second how you respect our tax dollars.

Phillip if you do run the grinder sometime or someone else uses one tell me what type of tolerance you can expect. If it was really bang on it would be a good thing. I can set knives very accurate on my SCM stuff but there are a few reasons. On a wider planer and wider knives id think it gets harder. I can tap my knives under load to get them close to bang on. A thicker knife but mostly wider id think gets harder to do that.

Ive asked Tersa before and think I listed it here and the stated tolerances were very impressive.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Warren,

I have not measured the results yet with my onboard grinder. I experimented a bit with it when I first got the machine a few years back and came to the realization that I really need to replace the grinding wheel to be able to properly assess the feasibility of it. Been dragging my feet about replacing it, but I will eventually and try grinding again and will definitely measure the tolerances.

This thread had me check/measure my knives on the machine today out of curiosity; I posted a long story on Instagram about how I set the knives with the Panhans magnetic guides and tolerances I’m getting across 20” of knives. Measuring from underneath with a Mag base / dial indicator locked down on the locked planer bed I was measuring 0.001” difference (+/- 0.0005” ) from side to side across all 4 knives, which is hard to imagine improving on in any practical way.

I would be shocked if the grinding process had such small error tolerances as it grinds across the knives. Tersa would/will be nice one day but last time I priced one for the S50 it was about 4x what I paid for the whole machine.

[Warren Lake]

Hi Phillip

thanks on that., dont think I can look at instagram as im not in the club. I have a hard time believing a knife grinder gets amazing results as the stone is going to wear as you go plus the whole thing has to be machined so high level. Ive read guys that use them say they love them. This one has a grinder and a hone to put a double bevel on.

Those tolerances are very fine. I can do .0005 on the 14" SCM but I do some tapping and really that is not a plus or minus its mostly minus. I did price a Tersa for this machine and yes serious coin. Better to buy a machine with one in it if doing that, same as restoring cars the cost is high. Im sure id really like it but I figured out enough on what i have to make it all work.

How did you measure those measures? knife projection from the head then rotate the head so you see each of the knives high point. I have past seen grinders make knives that are not straight. That is very straight.

If i had the time id post the planer and just how far the knives are out. the difference between high value and low is dramatic never mind I dont think any are even close to parallel in the head. High school woodworking. At some point I will post the machine, i took photos way back and will video it I think I did. Its not been fired up and wont be for a while.

[Joe Calhoon]

I tried the Rangate head in question for tenons and it works the same as my old Garniga head. Just remove the middle cutter and shim for desired tenon thickness. Knickers top and bottom make for a clean cut. I could get 50mm depth with this on a 40mm shaft. A little more possible on a smaller shaft.
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[David Zaret]

I tried the Rangate head in question for tenons and it works the same as my old Garniga head. Just remove the middle cutter and shim for desired tenon thickness. Knickers top and bottom make for a clean cut. I could get 50mm depth with this on a 40mm shaft. A little more possible on a smaller shaft.
488209

great to know - thanks joe. i will try that.

[Warren Lake]

I like that a real tennon. How thick is the material there and the tennon.

[brent stanley]

I like that a real tennon. How thick is the material there and the tennon.

It is nice to be able to do that if you want to make higher end doors with proper tenons. If the tenon/groove thickness could be made to match the mortiser tooling you want to use, that would be handy.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks for posting that Joe, I'm going to borrow that idea. I see that's a cuttershare head, do you recommend them?

[Joe Calhoon]

I like that a real tennon. How thick is the material there and the tennon.

It was just a piece of 15/16 hit and miss white oak Warren. I think the thickness range of the cutter is 19 to 25 plus mm.
just guessed on the shims. I think it was 7mm. You can shim it to whatever you want. I would do either 6mm or 1/4” to match HC tooling.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for posting that Joe, I'm going to borrow that idea. I see that's a cuttershare head, do you recommend them?

It is the Cuttershare head Steve but I believe the other is the same, just different colors. My favorite of the Rangate cutters is the beveled Shaker. It is a stand alone profile. We will be using that one this week. Not sure if it is tenon capable but will find out.
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[Warren Lake]

thanks Joe

thickness is a reality as 4/4 past was good then it changed to wimpy. It was easier to get a thicker door out of 4/4 in the past. Each of those type of cutterheads will have a range, profile will place tennon. Thicker material is better. Profile size relates to door thickness in some way. I still have non of those type of heads. I was told some mills still mill 4/4 like past at 1 1/8 - 1 3/16 like i used to get, ill have to ask again.

[brent stanley]

It was just a piece of 15/16 hit and miss white oak Warren. I think the thickness range of the cutter is 19 to 25 plus mm.
just guessed on the shims. I think it was 7mm. You can shim it to whatever you want. I would do either 6mm or 1/4” to match HC tooling.

Thanks Joe, are these MAN rated blocks? I assume so if made in Italy for manual machines, but perhaps not.

[Joe Calhoon]

thanks Joe

thickness is a reality as 4/4 past was good then it changed to wimpy. It was easier to get a thicker door out of 4/4 in the past. Each of those type of cutterheads will have a range, profile will place tennon. Thicker material is better. Profile size relates to door thickness in some way. I still have non of those type of heads. I was told some mills still mill 4/4 like past at 1 1/8 - 1 3/16 like i used to get, ill have to ask again.

Warren, in 45 years of woodworking I’ve never seen 1 1/8 out of 4/4.

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks Joe, are these MAN rated blocks? I assume so if made in Italy for manual machines, but perhaps not.

All MAN Brent. That has been common in continental Europe (Germany,Austria Italy for 25 plus years or more now.

[Warren Lake]

all the time from 81 on I could get that, at some point they changed the cutting dimension and when asked was told some mills they buy from still cut that way.

Whenever along the way it became barely over an inch.

[brent stanley]

all the time from 81 on I could get that, at some point they changed the cutting dimension and when asked was told some mills they buy from still cut that way.

Whenever along the way it became barely over an inch.

Monaghan Lumber in Peterborough has always given me between 1 1/16 and 1 3/16" for rough 4/4 in domestic hard and softwood, don't remember about exotic. Depending on a lot of factors you can often joint and plane and still get a full inch.

[Joe Calhoon]

Yes 1 1/16 plus is common in 4/4 KD rough. 15/16 hit and miss from 4/4 rough. If I need 1” or 1 1/16 clean S2S I just order 5/4. Don’t like fighting for thickness.

[Warren Lake]

unrealistic to expect to get 1" some stuff fine. Tension release if you do it you need more meat to start. Material machined for a face frame is one thing, for a door another. Past I did the doors 7/8" on small stuff. Even Euro hinge suppliers at times could not supply me correct info numbers for those done inset beaded face frame and mounted properly. More of a fan of old butt hinges. Ive seen old off cuts around here of how thick 4/4 was. Most to all off cuts went into the woodstove as I was working, if I find some will measure. No question I had stuff as thick as 1 3/16 in 4/4 rough. I remember seeing old off cuts from time to time and it bumbed me out that they had reduced thickness. Old guy told me 30 years about how stuff is reduced to increase yield and over all how it made such a difference for them.

[Greg Quenneville]

Warren you are in Toronto? Where I grew up closer to Detroit 1” at the mill was more like as you described which would yield about an inch dressed. I can recall buying stuff with my Dad in the 1960’s like that, and maybe I did too in the 80’s, but not anymore unless you are getting it custom cut, or so I am told.

Anything I have bought here in Australia from North America has been 1 5/8” thick. That’s both WRC and white oak. Its sold as 40mm rough, but I have only been losing about 3-4mm which suits my architectural work, but maybe not so good for furniture.

Greg

[brent stanley]

Warren you are in Toronto? Where I grew up closer to Detroit 1” at the mill was more like as you described which would yield about an inch dressed. I can recall buying stuff with my Dad in the 1960’s like that, and maybe I did too in the 80’s, but not anymore unless you are getting it custom cut, or so I am told.

Anything I have bought here in Australia from North America has been 1 5/8” thick. That’s both WRC and white oak. Its sold as 40mm rough, but I have only been losing about 3-4mm which suits my architectural work, but maybe not so good for furniture.

Greg

I'm east of Toronto about an hour or so, and the stock from the local store is always well oversized for whatever it is. I don't want some kid who loads lumber to determine the look and feel of my projects, so I'm always picking through the piles to get material suitable for discriminating clients and if the 4/4 won't reliably get me a full inch (and say I need a full inch) then the 5/4 pile is right beside it and I get that instead. But with local materials I would say almost 9 /10 times I could get a full inch from their nominal 4/4 with shorter lengths which is nice. Nice to save the machining time and cost if you can, but other options are always available if you need them. Warren, you should come up for a visit and we'll look through the piles and talk shop!

[Warren Lake]

material selection and lay out is a whole huge topic on its own. Im very picky on the material and layout and typically in a fresh lift of top grade would find 20 percent on average or bit more to work for what I was doing. Had huge grief over the years having a job and material not being what I wanted. Huge time picking material and even that alone finding the level I wanted and people that let me was hard. Im north of toronto, almost all my material came from the US mills. Wood is different from different areas Pennsylvannia oak is not like Michigan Oak. I had suppliers here one i can think of salesman changes companies to one that I could not be happy with and he brings stuff from mills I knew of US and then I could buy there. That salesman goes, they dont buy from the mill, then I dont shop there. I was lucky as well in that I got good treatment like we have three lifts of birdseye in. You can come in and pick all you want from them. I got sent to the US once to a mill and got to pick as it was going past then shipped up here. That was a neat experience. Also went to the mills where they have the whole tree all sliced and kept in order. I didnt need that for the work I did but its ideal for people like Doucet and wolf. Nothing caused more grief in this trade than finding and getting the right material, that saying silk purse from a sows ear is nothing more than a saying.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It is the Cuttershare head Steve but I believe the other is the same, just different colors. My favorite of the Rangate cutters is the beveled Shaker. It is a stand alone profile. We will be using that one this week. Not sure if it is tenon capable but will find out.
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Joe or others, probably a dumb question, what is the reason that the set is designed to have a stepped door panel groove? Meaning, I'm used to seeing cutters were the the panel groove is just 3/8" deep or whatever, equal depth both sides, but this Rangate has one side at 18.7mm and the other at 9.2mm. Trying to wrap my head around the reasoning, old dogs, new tricks. I've been talking to Rangate about a set, and ironically where we ended up is the RCCDB1481925 Bevel Shaker Set, which is I think what you cut this with Joe?

[Joe Calhoon]

That’s a good question Steve. I believe the set can be used a couple ways. The drawings show a short stub tenon in one configuration. This one might have something to do with putting a glass panel in. I won’t be back in my shop till next week and will check it out further. I normally reinforce cabinet door copes with a couple dowels. I chose this configuration because it seems strong for a cope and stick joint.
I will get back to you next week.

[Joe Calhoon]

Steve, I took another look at this cutter and contacted Mr Zuani. It has 2 configurations one for glass and one for a panel. He said the reason for the offset is to add more strength to the joint. We have made a few of these in the Alpine Workshops and it is a solid joint. The glass configuration I would definitely reinforce with dowels or Domino. It is not possible to true tenon with this set like the other one does.

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[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thank you Joe, that makes sense now that you point it out. Rangate just sent me details on an option with this cutter to swap a component to cut conventional shaker too. Think I'll give it a try.