enough whining! how many will do something?

[tod evans]

okay folks we as a collective group carry a lot of weight in the tool marketplace so i figured i`d start a poll to see just how many folks would be willing to support an american tool company if one where born..in my short tenure on smc i`ve noticed that there are more than a few here who could design equipment vastly superior to the imports. there are folks here who are marketing geniuses in their own right.and there are others who have the financial wherewithall to spearhead a project of this magnitude. so please chip in your .02 just for the sake of arguement..thanks, tod

[Gary Herrmann]

I'm no genius, and my wherewithall is nonexistant, but I'd support it. I've got a smidgen of marketing experience (market research mostly) and I've been an IT PM for the past decade. So I don't know that my skills would be too valuable.

Good idea and good choice of site to ask tho.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Some of the american tool companies have carved out a very envious niche for themselves, Lie Nelson comes to mind as one of the most successful.

I would think that there would be a market for high quality american made machines, but price has to be a consideration. There will be a price premium, but if it is too high, they won't come.

All that said, I would be interested in the company.

[Mike Cutler]

I do not mind paying the increased cost for a quality lifetime product. I'm sick and tired of cheap extruded aluminum shop jigs and fixtures. I've brought more than one to work to put it on a Bridgeport and correct it.
The first guy to make a fully adjustable miter sled out of steel, or high quality aluminum plate, and structural grade aircraft aluminum extrusions has an order.
Lightweight shotguns and lightweight tools look good on paper, and that's about it.

[Dan Racette]

companies like Whiteside are still family owned. Corporatations only responsibility is to profit for investors. Quality is irrelavant, or the "lowest quality the market can bear" which advertising and promotion even lower that more so that products can be promoted for their "superior inferiorness".

don't get me wrong. I feel that I HAVE to buy from corporations. I do my best to avoid them, but they hide themselves well to the unresearched consumer. Corporations do make good stuff, but when they are corporations they are immediately on my "trust but verify" list.


Oh I could go on and on, but the bottom line is if there is a quality product out there at a consistently good value, I will take it! But remember "value" can be an illusion.

[Bill Simmeth]

I'm in. I spent enough years in grade school doing "duck and cover" drills that the thought of sending my $$$ to a communist nuclear power just sets the gut churning.

So, what we making?

[Bill Grumbine]

I'm already in the group. I buy American when it fits my needs, my wallet, and my standards, and I sell American, although my particular product was designed to address a peculiarity in an English machine. :D

Besides a few Lie-Nielsen purchases, my most recent large American made purchase was my Vega lathe. I like it enough that it is going to be featured in the next video as an American made alternative to imports from all over the world.

Bill

[Philip Glover]

I am all for a U.S. company that makes a wide range of high quality up-to-date machines.

As much as I like Northfield, which is a lot, they need to make some additions to their product line and update the configuration and features of their machines. I can think of some other U.S. companies that should do the same, Newman-Whitney, Whirlwind, Tannewitz, to name a few.

I think a good goal would be to create a streamlined version of SCMI. Of course this would have to start out much smaller, but I think that's a good long term (10-15 yrs) goal.

Anyways, this company could produce two lines of equipment. A "small shop" line and an "industrial" line. When I say small shop I do not mean Delta, Powermatic, Jet, or Grizzly. This line would be higher quality, more durable, and more inovative. The price range should be competive with Mini Max and Felder.

The industrial line needs to be top notch. Maybe not like Kapp gear grinders or Sip-Hauser jig grinders, but along the lines of Northfield or old Oliver quailty.

When do we start?

Phil Glover

[tod evans]

I'm in. I spent enough years in grade school doing "duck and cover" drills that the thought of sending my $$$ to a communist nuclear power just sets the gut churning.

So, what we making?

dunna know? i`m pretty good at cutting up boards but steel kicks my butt more than vica-versa. i`ve got more time than money but i`d sure chip in both to proudly fly american flags in my shop. and by american i mean every componant made right here not assembled here by drones..i`ve got several hundred ideas but only so much time, after fords news release i thought it was time for the down to earth folks to see what if anything we can do about making something at home? maybe if we start with woodworking equipment after a few years we could make cars in this country again........what a concept....02 tod

[Frank Pellow]

I am already quite supportive of USA Tool companies and, even more so of Canadian tool companies (such as Lee Valley, General, Leigh Industies, Sommerville Design, and Jessem) .

I am quite willing to pay for good and inovative design and I just wish that more people felt this way.

[Scott Loven]

Kreg manufactures their tools here in Iowa. Their workforce has grown 400% or so in the last few years so it can be done.
Scott

[Doug Jones]

and by american i mean every componant made right here not assembled here by drones..

Being a "drone" in my job, I can tell you this is where you will have the hardest time getting a final price that the average American public can afford. In the vehicle that I assemble here in the states with my fellow "drones", even the bolts and nuts are shipped in because of price issues. Its cheaper to have them shipped from over seas than it is to buy from here in the states. Granted there are a few of the fixtures and gadgets that come from the states but most (probably 95% of the vehicle) is shipped in from another country.
You will be hard pressed to find a piece of machinery that is 100% made in the USA, assembled, yes,,, made, I doubt it.



Added edit,,,,,

What is wrong with foreign made stuff? Am I missing something here. Even the foreign made tools help put food on Americans table. Whether it be the guy on the shipping docks unloading the creates, the truck driver delivering to the warehouse, the fork truck driver unloading/loading the trucks, the postal/delivery person that brings it to your door.

[Bob Reeve]

I agree that a USA made and assembled line of machinery would be a great thing and I would support it if it made sense. I am a salesman of industrial goods with a combination of USA and Foriegn manufactures, yes even one from Canada.

Here are my feelings. It is a world market now and quality products can be had from many different countrys. I will always buy American if it is a clearly superior product and pay a premium. If products from several countries are equal, I will buy from a USA company if the price is competitive.

If I am looking for a product and a foriegn made product is the best, that is were I am buying. This could be from Canada, Germany, England, Japan, China etc.

Come on USA. step up and make a product that is quality and a good price. It can be done, I know as I sell for some of the best in the states.

[tod evans]

Being a "drone" in my job, I can tell you this is where you will have the hardest time getting a final price that the average American public can afford. In the vehicle that I assemble here in the states with my fellow "drones", even the bolts and nuts are shipped in because of price issues. Its cheaper to have them shipped from over seas than it is to buy from here in the states. Granted there are a few of the fixtures and gadgets that come from the states but most (probably 95% of the vehicle) is shipped in from another country.
You will be hard pressed to find a piece of machinery that is 100% made in the USA, assembled, yes,,, made, I doubt it.



Added edit,,,,,

What is wrong with foreign made stuff? Am I missing something here. Even the foreign made tools help put food on Americans table. Whether it be the guy on the shipping docks unloading the creates, the truck driver delivering to the warehouse, the fork truck driver unloading/loading the trucks, the postal/delivery person that brings it to your door.

doug, this is only intended as a theoretical question, there was no dissrespect intended toward you or anyother person who assembles whatever for a living. my appoligies if you have taken offence.

as to what is wrong with foreign made goods? well from here the main problem with foreign made goods seems to be that the united states as a country sees very little benefit from the manufacturing of these goods, sure we reap profits moving them around from shipyard to consumer but we as a country are loosing the ability to be self sufficient. and from my jaded viewpoint self-suffiency and freedom are synonymous.....02 tod

[Andy Hoyt]

I am already quite supportive of USA Tool comapnies and, even more so of Canadian tool comapnies (such as Lee Valley, General, Leigh Industies, Sommerville Design, and Jessem) .

I am quite willing to pay for good and inovative design and I just wish that more people felt this way.

I'm in. And let's add Oneway to Frank's list.

Suggest we change the notion to "North American" machinery.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I am in. Not quite sure what I am getting myself into but......
One thing though, if I tell my boss that I am changing my machinery again she is going to kill me. I am only on year #12 so I may never reach Don's status of 62!!:eek:

[tod evans]

I'm in. And let's add Oneway to Frank's list.

Suggest we change the notion to "North American" machinery.

andy, i`m all for including canada in the mix. but i`d be supprised if they`d have us the way our government treats them.....02 tod

[Frank Pellow]

I'm in. And let's add Oneway to Frank's list.

Suggest we change the notion to "North American" machinery.
Thanks Andy. My list was only intented to be an example, and by no means a complete list.

[Jim Hager]

I sure would be for a company based in the US for woodworking machinery. I'm getting plenty tired of the junk available from other locations including some of our old tried and true US brands that have been off shored in the last few years.

[Andy Hoyt]

I agree Tod, but that's likely to change pretty soon, what with the elections they just had.

The machine must be 100% built with quality materials, and local labor. It's the local labor that all of this is really about. The paycheck earned by those workers and the taxes paid by that company will had profound long term positive effect on the local economy. And if successful, it should spark a movement for more North American start ups.

[Bob Noles]

Tod.....

I'm in, but insist on quality and a fully assembled product. I would be happy to offer accounting and tax services to the entity to assist in holding cost and taxes to a minimum and allow that savings to flow to the end user price.

[tod evans]

Tod.....

I'm in, but insist on quality and a fully assembled product. I would be happy to offer accounting and tax services to the entity to assist in holding cost and taxes to a minimum and allow that savings to flow to the end user price.

bob, i`ll be the first to say that i don`t have the brains or the backing to get something of this magnitude off the ground! but your offer is greatly appreiciated and should anything ever transpire from this thread i too will chip in all that i`m able.....02 tod

[Steve Clardy]

Well. #1. I don't whine.;)
I do support good old USA manufactures, but then again I buy the best value as to what I can afford.
So--who actually can tell me that everything they buy, [try to buy USA] actually comes from here?:confused: :D

[Doug Jones]

doug, this is only intended as a theoretical question, there was no dissrespect intended toward you or anyother person who assembles whatever for a living. my appoligies if you have taken offence.

All is good tod,

I'm in if you need an assembler, as long as the pay is the same or better than what I'm making now, pays for relocation, a signing bonus, and an advancement, I'll be your first floor worker.

[Lee DeRaud]

...we as a country are loosing the ability to be self sufficient. and from my jaded viewpoint self-suffiency and freedom are synonymous...Well, then I think we've got a serious problem here, because it doesn't matter what a country has the ability to build if it doesn't have the raw materials to build it out of. And we can't be self-sufficent with respect to raw materials unless we're willing to run the country with 19th-century technology. You might want to take a look at the USGS mineral commodity summaries:
http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/mcs/2006/mcs2006.pdf
There's a chart on page 6 showing the import reliance numbers for 2005.

[Jim DeMarco]

Tod,
First and foremost, I love the idea, and I agree. However, you need to look at the big picture. If one were to do this, the quality has to be there, you must provide a benefit over the competion, and you must remain cost competitive. Therin lies the problem!! I am an engineer in the automotive industry, and trust me I have seen more than my fair share of frustration on this topic. However, the general public misses three key points on this topic. #1 Current "American" companies can not remain cost competitive, and maintain quality and the same time. The general population drives the marketplace on PRICE. #2 The baby boomers retiring, coupled with healthcare costs skyrocketing are killing any 'profit' thus driving prices higher. #3 As mentioned, shareholds want to see profit.

Without the government being involved in this some way, I am not sure it would be possible. Honestly, even a great machine design, with spectacular quality... lets use a simply jointer as an example:

We need to have an american foundry make castings, they need to be machined, assembled, inspected, etc. etc.

Do you think as a company we can remain cost competitive having 100% American componets?? The foundry in China does not need to worry about the EPA, OSHA, workers comp, healthcare, its retired workforce which outnumbers its current employees, the unions, the neighbors, etc... The overhead is killing the US company, along with greed.

The sad part is, in my opinion, the cycle is going to get worse. How can "Bob" afford to put clothing on his family when he just lost his job at the foundry? He has no choice but to go to Wal Mart and buy less expensive goods. This in turn supports a foreign company, and causes "Bill" to loose his job at the Textile mill.... and so the cycle goes. But, Wal Mart does not care, they made a sale, there numbers look good, their shareholders are happy. The flip side in the eyes of the "global" economy is, "well now Bob and Bill can go to work for Wal Mart....

Ok sorry, way off topic here, and I am sure I opened a can or two of worms. Bottom line is this, Tod, and others, if you can sell it, I suport it 110% and offer my services!! I personally think it would be nice to be able to have pride back in our workforce, and show this world, we are still #1!!

[Jeff Singleton]

As a patternmaker and woodworker I have tried for the past 30 years to buy American. All my shrink rulers, square, protractors, trammels are Starret and Brown & Sharp, chisels are Buck Bros and old Stanley. Running around my Grandfather's pattern shop in the '60's and '70's he had nothing that didn't say Made in the USA. My machines are Oliver, 1925 bandsaw, two shapers and a 9" 166, Master disc and State spindle sander, Whirlwind edge sander, DeWalt 16" RAS, PM 66, 1200, & 180 along with an Aget DC, along with 3 Emmerts. The two lone holed out are my English Wadkin 16" jointer and my West German Zimmeramnn DZ2000 patternmakers lathe. It's getting harder and harder to buy American. I have payed more for an American product and I will continue to. I have always felt that a free world economy only works if a pattermaker in China, Germany, Japan, and the USA all made the same wage and all the economies are on a level playing field. I know I am dreaming, that will never happen.

Jeff Singleton

[Michael Keating]

I would be in support of a major American corporation that produced a quality product that was competitive with the imports. However, the American labor force will not make this an option. With a company sized to compete with imports unions will get involved and drive up the cost of goods. Then there will be strikes over healthcare and the rights of the employeer to discipline and fire the employees. A la Ford and our textile industries.
If you want to see the reason American products are no longer in my shop or driveway look at the picket lines. As far as I am concerned a majority of American products have not earned the right to get my money. There are exceptions (lie-Nielsen) and some others. But they are mostly the smaller companies.

Getting off Soap Box.

Mike

[Jim DeMarco]

I have to add this, there is already a North American Produced Machine avalible to all of us. General (not General International) produces machines made in Canada.

How many of you out there own one???

[Robert Boyd]

I would me more than happy to purchase the products but on a couple of conditions: Only if Dev gets to control the design and has a say in the materials and which foundries to use.
I think this is possible but we will have to go off the path and look at different alternatives as to what foundries we use. I currently live in Rockford, IL and know a gentlemen that spent 23 years at Ingersol developing high speed milling machines so believe you me I have no problem getting things machined in this town.
I know I am one of the young ones here (30) but I drove all the way out to New Jersey just to buy a unisaw(vintage pre 1950) that was well built. I have a delta band saw that was made in the USA and also have a vintage Delta Milwaukee shaper on layaway.
One last thing is I would like to see simple but ingenious ideas added to the machines. Kinda like the idea with the Dewalt 735, Sawstop, or a combination of Euro designs.

[Frank Pellow]

I have to add this, there is already a North American Produced Machine avalible to all of us. General (not General International) produces machines made in Canada.

How many of you out there own one???
I own one. :) And, I have my eye on a second one.

[Kenneth Hertzog]

It would also be nice to have pen kits and such also made in North America
All of those componets are also made overseas
ken

[Frank Pellow]

I agree Tod, but that's likely to change pretty soon, what with the elections they just had.
...

The less said about the result of our election the better. :( But, I expect that we will get a chance to change things again in about two years. :)

[Paul B. Cresti]

I own one. :) And, I have my eye on a second one.

Frank,
I owned the Genreral 14" model 130 planer. I sold it when I bought my MiniMax FS41. The general was a beautiful machine. If I ever had to go back to the "old ways" :) , today, my shop would be all General Canadian

[Allen Grimes]

I was thinking, I only really need 2 more machines to have an efficient WW shop, and those 2 are a jointer and a planer. I think that if I go cheap with those 2 machines, I can use them to help me make the money so I dont have to buy any chinese/taiwanese machines ever again.

It might take a little longer for me to get what I want, but I think it is worth it to at least have the piece of mind that I am supporting my country.

I am all for supporting America and I am willing to help you guys if you are serious, but I wont be able to help until after I get my own situation under control.

Also I was thinking, it would be a good idea to put a complete list of all the companies that make their tools in the USA. The reason I say this is because there are some companies that I am just finding out about. For example, until John M. posted his complaints about Starrett I didnt know that they were an American company. I also never heard of Quincy or Brown and Sharpe until a couple days ago.

My point is I never even knew that these companies were options, but now that I do, they are definately companies that I would buy from. More importantly, I am sure that there are othe US companies that I dont know about that I would much rather give my money too, instead of some of my other options.

[Tom Donalek]

Let me throw out a crazy alternative to 'starting a new company'. What if folks collaborated with an existing tool company to create a 'made in US/North America' tool line. I'm thinking of Grizzly, but there are other companies also. In essence this would compete with the General/General International lines. Such a collaboration would cut out all the huge problems of getting any company off the ground, and would have critical elements such as sales/marketing and distribution already in place. Of course, the downside to this is what happens when you can look at one catalog and compare the US/NA made tool to the import and see that you're paying twice(?) as much and not getting that much different a tool.

(My other side bar is: How much is this about just being tool-freaks? I'm a huge tool-freak, but in the end, isn't woodworking about the wood at the end of the process? There are plenty of people out there who have tuned up their 'crappy import' tools and make beautiful work. I don't want to go on too much of an economics rant, but isn't it to our benefit that some guy in China is spending his time making low-tech, low-value cast iron pieces, while some guy in the US is spending his time making extremely high-value fine furniture? Where would our economies be if it was reversed?)

[Art Mulder]

I have to add this, there is already a North American Produced Machine avalible to all of us. General (not General International) produces machines made in Canada.

How many of you out there own one???

Nope, not me. And I even live in Canada. I do have a GI saw, which at least comes with a Canadian Made fence. The pure General stuff is just, IMHO, too expensive for the average hobbyist.

Now some questions...

- why isn't General building (in Canada) some more of the lower-priced stuff.

- why is it that Lee Valley -- a succesfull large retailer, as well as a manufacturer -- is staying out of the machinery business?

- what is the size of your market? There are currently just over 6200 SMC members. That isn't that large a market. Suppose you are going to sell a $500 item of some kind. It is a stupendous tool and we all want it. If everyone of us bought one, that would be 3.1 million bucks. And since it is a good quality item, it is going to last "a lifetime". So that market segment is tapped.

I'm a computer guy, I don't work in manufacturing, but I think that 3.1million is not much in terms of setting up a domestic market. And that assumes that all of us buy, which isn't gonna happen. Just how big is the woodworking tool market in Canada and the USA ??


Hmm, how about a company that specializes in locating, obtaining, fixing up, and selling all those great old big-iron tools of the past 100 years. That is one way to buy domestic without having to worry about setting up a factory. You've got the web for marketing, and UPS for delivery.

ahh well...

[Ed Kowaski]

I don't believe North America lost it's manufacturing industry. We gave it away. There was little if any innovation, prices were insane and quality was non existant. When I looked for my first thinckness planer there was only one option. A Rockwell Delta 12" floor model, had a 2 knife cutter head slightly larger then a pencil, did a terrible finish and cost > 5K. At that time my house cost 24K. In today terms that's a 25K planer and it was a total POS plain and simple.

These days I look for a format slider, never been one made in North America that I know of. Perhaps the question should be how many can do something.

[tod evans]

These days I look for a format slider, never been one made in North America that I know of. Perhaps the question should be how many can do something.

well ed i`m watching the comments pro and con as are lots of folks and in my little hillbilly mind only one thing keeps popping up; "cain`t never got nothin` done!" .......02 tod

[Roger Los]

One thing to think of, perhaps, is that these imbalances don't last forever. Right now it's cheap to build machines overseas, but that will change at some point. For example, if bulk oil goes through the roof, it might cost more to ship the finished tool from the other side of the world than you can save in labor.

That said, I do try to buy local (which can mean "made as close to me as possible") goods when I can, whether it's furniture, food, tools, or what-not. I will pay a premium to do so, but my ability to pay that premium is limited. I'd pay double for a good wrench made locally versus a cheap import, but I simply cannot pay double for a several-hundred or thousand dollar machine that I don't use frequently enough to warrant the investment.

Tod (I believe) had it right: the only responsbility that corporations have is a fiduciary one to their shareholders. That is what will eventually turn all companies "with a conscience", like CostCo, which pays a nice wage to all of their employees, into WalMart "we encourage employees to sign up for welfare" clones. I invest specifically in CostCo because of that aspect of their business, but if the economy hits a really rough spot and their shares tumble, institutional investors are going to say "cut costs, you're paying a cashier $40K a year, you can pay them $20K." That's why the Google slogan "do no evil" is a joke...they will eventually have little choice about "doing evil" if their big shareholders demand returns that require it.

Ahem. Can you see why I'm not invited to parties much? :rolleyes:

[Andy Hoyt]

No great thing was ever accomplished without some measure of sacrifice. This was just as true for our War for Independence as it was for the space race of the fifties and sixties.

To achieve the goal that this thread proposes will indeed require sacrifice, as well. For most of us that would mean digging deeper into our pockets. But I am reminded that by doing so we would be honoring a committment each of made when we chose to reproduce.

[Ed Kowaski]

"cain`t never got nothin` done!" .......02 tod

North America is to way big for me to look after without co operation from gov't. :) I can, with some effort, get things done in my shop. I've seen your work, obviously you can too.

I'm not sure I understand what you said and I'd like to.

[Tim Sproul]

The country of origin has little to do with the quality of good produced. The country of origin can have an effect on the price of some goods, but not all. Labor is only a part of the cost. Part of the cost of manufacturing is also regulatory. OSHA. EPA. To name a couple regulatory agencies that can deeply affect the cost to produce here in the US. Many such agencies are non-existant in third world countries.

Let's not forget 'attitude' differences. It certainly doesn't apply to all individuals, but on a whole, American workers have quite a sense of entitlement compared to workers in many other parts of the world. I suspect this same sense of entitlement is also why many of you feel that blame for loss in manufacturing work resides elsewhere. Look within before you go pointing fingers out. I find it a bit odd that a UAW worker typically makes a whole lot more moula than an elementary school teacher. Culpability lies within us all for the downfall in US manufacturing.

Other factors - the company itself. A company has to come to terms with quality versus revenue versus cost versus margin blah blah blah. It seems unreasonable to think every company should be out to make only the highest quality good. You'd be paying $50 for a spoon then. Heck, one might argue that the infusion of 'common' man money into the stock market has been a huge pressure on companies to eek out the highest profit margins at any cost....and hence the drive to find ANY way to reduce costs.

The country of origin typically plays only a minor role in my decision to purchase a product or not. Certain factors may make the country of origin become a major contributor but normally, it isn't much of a consideration. I kinda like the fact that I can purchase underwear for $5 instead of $20.

[Andy Hoyt]

I just figured something out about this notion. Some of us are thinking about this with respect to how it might affect one's self in a lifetime; and some of us are thinking about the long term effect upon our society.

[tod evans]

I just figured something out about this notion. Some of us are thinking about this with respect to how it might affect one's self in a lifetime; and some of us are thinking about the long term effect upon our society.

thanks andy! much better than my version:)..... unless most of us are teenagers who allready know everything it`s up to us as a group to build and grow with the knowledge and wealth we posses. whether or not we want to admit it we are the forefathers our kids and grandkids will either cuss or praise.

[Mike Wilkins]

Call it the WalMart syndrome, but as long as price governs our purchasing decisions, there will always be imports from the Pacific rim countries. We all want top-of-the-line quality, but at an affordable level. And unless you are a full time cabinet shop, most of us cannot justify the Martins, Altendorfs and
other Italian eye candy on the market. Reality always rears its ugly head in the form of mortgages, bills, college tuition and my cigar budget.
I have very few American made machines in my shop now, and this is both by choice and by budget.
Now if someone can email me some winning lottery numbers, I will gladly split the winning proceeds with you.

[Keith Hooks]

I'd pay more for U.S. made tools if it also meant the design/quality was superior. I'm not going to pay more for a lower quality product. Noone wins that way.

More importantly, I'm a mechanical engineer and I'd love an opportunity to design woodworking tools for a living. :)

[Alan Turner]

I won't be of much help on the formation or operation of such a company. But, Iwill offer a suggestion of tool needed in the market that would not have that much competition.
The Horizontal Slot Mortiser.
These are rare as hen's teeth on the used and new market. Invicta makes one, but it is an xyz table, and I think it is the head that should move. Robland offers one, but I have not seen it. They are genrally available on Euro combos, but not so much as a stand alone tool. Poss. Felder still has one.
My 2C, as Todd might say.

[Dave Lehnert]

I think you will find EVERYONE will say they are supportive but in the end price will be the everything. Wal-Mart is not the largest retailer in the world by selling only American made products. Generally people will say “yes” if the price is comparable. Price is never going to be comparable between off shore equipment and USA product. Take a wood planer. The Shopsmith 12” wood planer is around $1,200.00 Made in Dayton Ohio. Delta, Dewalt around $400.

[Frank Chaffee]

I just figured something out about this notion. Some of us are thinking about this with respect to how it might affect one's self in a lifetime; and some of us are thinking about the long term effect upon our society.
We need only to refer to The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon to refresh our memories on how the overreaching spread of influence taxes and destroys the societal base on which that influence was founded.

Then look at the Colonialist models of Spain, France, Holland, Great Britain and others.

Today,
corporations are the problem

companies like Whiteside are still family owned. Corporatations only responsibility is to profit for investors. Quality is irrelavant, or the "lowest quality the market can bear" which advertising and promotion even lower that more so that products can be promoted for their "superior inferiorness".

don't get me wrong. I feel that I HAVE to buy from corporations. I do my best to avoid them, but they hide themselves well to the unresearched consumer. Corporations do make good stuff, but when they are corporations they are immediately on my "trust but verify" list.

Oh I could go on and on, but the bottom line is if there is a quality product out there at a consistently good value, I will take it! But remember "value" can be an illusion.
Corporations are not humans/citizens/families/clans/villages/nationals or any other caring set of human relations, and are highly susceptible to greed (is that one of the seven wonders of the world?).

…but we as a country are loosing the ability to be self sufficient. and from my jaded viewpoint self-suffiency and freedom are synonymous.....02 tod
Any person or group of people who lose their sense of self-determination become lost or unstable (DAMHIKT). It is (IMORO), to the best interest of all of us to support and encourage exchange between people that is free of divisive lines.

Yes I did duck and cover drills. This thread reminds to me of the importance of not supporting repressive governments. However, I must ask “Who will cast the first stone?”

My vision for consciousness on this planet is to reach out and explore space. My greatest hope is that we do not have the means for that before we learn to pull together, as the consequences of a meeting with et’s while we are still this conflicted between ourselves would be disastrous.

Frank

Oops, sorry tod, almost forgot to say that I am in on any design and manufacturing enterprise we might get going here. As you can see from the above however, I am more committed to the human affirmations of a company that the nationalistic ones.

PS:
Kreg manufactures their tools here in Iowa. Their workforce has grown 400% or so in the last few years so it can be done.
Scott
Innovative small manufacturer RotoZip was just down the road from here. They sold to Bosch. People got their pink slips and the products are currently manufactured in Mexico.
I am very much in favor of the free trade of goods and services among the people of this world, however, we must really maintain all levels of manufacturing base at home too.

[Dan Racette]

I'd like to weigh in on tool manufacturer vs. merchant.

I am supportive of a tool manufacturer. Someone who makes and sells tools that they make, not another vendor that uses MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing) as mandated by corporations. Now I know that some of the companies that do make their own lines of tools are simply "sourcing" them out, which I also think kills quality and drives up pricing. Even some of the ones that do that have had to add other products that aren't theirs, but I guess they feel it is neccessary.

I obviously don't know specifics, but those are the things that irritate me. Most of which are beyond my control.

So, since Tod started this thread, I'd like to know who it is that is "listening".

Dan

[Lee DeRaud]

I won't be of much help on the formation or operation of such a company. But, Iwill offer a suggestion of tool needed in the market that would not have that much competition.
The Horizontal Slot Mortiser.
These are rare as hen's teeth on the used and new market. Invicta makes one, but it is an xyz table, and I think it is the head that should move. Robland offers one, but I have not seen it. They are genrally available on Euro combos, but not so much as a stand alone tool. Poss. Felder still has one.You mean like the Multi-Router? (Made who-knows-where by JDS, which is based in South Carolina.)
http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=5

[Reg Mitchell]

I'm no brainiach by any strech of the imagination. But I am a machinest and do have a good working knowled of machining. I too work in Quality Control at the ,what use to be a Rockwell gearing company. We do Percision forgeing for gears. I'm In if we can get it off the ground. I don't have a lot of money but I am a rebel and willing to gamble it. :)

[John Bailey]

"cain`t never got nothin` done!"

I haven't made up my mind about this thread. But, I do know that the above quote is what makes the thread, as well as most of life in general, worth my time. I noticed some didn't get it. It means if you go around saying you "cain't" do something, you won't get it done. "Never up, never in." "All journeys start with a single step." I fully believe that some American will come up with a way of manufacturing American Made machines that will compete with imports in quality and price. I gaurantee you it will be somebody with a "little hillbilly mind" like the two young guys that made a personal computer in their garage.

I've been reading Greek history recently. Our 230 yrs. as a nation is nothing. We're hardly out of our diapers. So, this is an important subject. This kind of dialogue will determine whether we continue to flourish as a country for another 230 yrs., or, like so often happened in Greek history, we lose our way of life. It's why I like this forum so well, everyone is having their say, and nobody is making it personal. Speaks well of us.

By the way, my dad always told me that a hillbilly was a Michigander that lives in the boonies. I qualify. We tend to be doers out here, because if we weren't, it -whatever the it is - wouldn't get done.

Sorry for the length.

John

[Alan Turner]

You mean like the Multi-Router? (Made who-knows-where by JDS, which is based in South Carolina.)
http://www.jdstools.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=5

Nope. Not a high speed router based tool, but a cast iron guy like a Griggio that uses endmills of any diameter. At least, that is what I had in mind.

[lou sansone]

[quote=Frank Chaffee]We need only to refer to The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon to refresh our memories on how the overreaching spread of influence taxes and destroys the societal base on which that influence was founded.


there were many other issues other than what gibbon's makes mention of. My reading and research tends to point more toward an increase of hedonism, disregard for human life, increased appetite for excessive violence and basic "internal rottenness" . but that is for another forum

Lou

[Arthur Wood]

I am already quite supportive of USA Tool companies and, even more so of Canadian tool companies (such as Lee Valley, General, Leigh Industies, Sommerville Design, and Jessem) .

I am quite willing to pay for good and inovative design and I just wish that more people felt this way.

This is the issue in my opinion. If the American public doesn't place a premium on craftsmanship, innovation, design, or quality - whether it be cars, furniture, or tools - then I don't believe anyone going in to business with these objectives can be successful.

Just about every mom and pop operation across the American landscape is threatened by cheaper goods peddled by large corporations. Don't mistake me for being anti-corporation - I proudly work for one. But I vote with my wallet. And this doesn't mean that I'll buy inferior products out of a sheer sense of nationalism. I too, place a premium on quality and innovation. If the product is German, Canadian, Japanase or American - so be it. What I won't buy is cheap garbage - whether it is at some crappy chinese import tool store or some SUPER HUGE American retailer.

In the best case scenario, I'd buy a quality American product from a independent American retailer. But I think it's foolhardy to hang our hopes on the fact that American retailers and manufacturers will be successful if the masses would only adopt that old "Buy American" nationalist propaganda. . . if American products are to return to their former glory, it will require quality and value. The "value" piece (in my opinion) is MUCH harder to deliver - especially when assemblers (per a post above) require more pay, relocation, sign on bonuses and other "perks" that no foreign worker with similar responsibilities comes close to requiring.

Sigh. . ..

Art

[Dev Emch]

[quote=Frank Chaffee]We need only to refer to The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon to refresh our memories on how the overreaching spread of influence taxes and destroys the societal base on which that influence was founded.


there were many other issues other than what gibbon's makes mention of. My reading and research tends to point more toward an increase of hedonism, disregard for human life, increased appetite for excessive violence and basic "internal rottenness" . but that is for another forum

Lou

In high school, we used to have to see 16 mm movies each week. Most were boring. But one I never forgot. A group of mice were placed into a closed environment with a fixed supply of food, water, housing, mouse entertainment, etc. At first life was excellent if your a mouse. Every one was healthy and there was hardly any fighting. But the mama mice kept busy doing what mama mice do and soon the population was taxing the resources. In time, the overal size and health of each mouse suffered and the fighting was horrific. In the end, most of the mice either died from war, stravation or diease.

[Allen Grimes]

In high school, we used to have to see 16 mm movies each week. Most were boring. But one I never forgot. A group of mice were placed into a closed environment with a fixed supply of food, water, housing, mouse entertainment, etc. At first life was excellent if your a mouse. Every one was healthy and there was hardly any fighting. But the mama mice kept busy doing what mama mice do and soon the population was taxing the resources. In time, the overal size and health of each mouse suffered and the fighting was horrific. In the end, most of the mice either died from war, stravation or diease.

So what your saying is, if we dont stop having kids, most of us are going to die of war, starvation or disease?

[Dev Emch]

So what your saying is, if we dont stop having kids, most of us are going to die of war, starvation or disease?

Population rebalanceing. Its nature's way. If I were china, I would be very concerned. According to folks at Cargill, china has not been able to feed itself in many years and relies on imported raw supplies. If John Deere shuts down, you guys do the math.

[Reg Mitchell]

now there's a nice idea also....finding the older stuff and rebuilding ......I am sure there would be a pretty good market and still some room for improvment in them. A lot of foundry items that have been lost from the oldies such as miter gages fences cracked parts....just a thought

[Rob Will]

and soon the population was taxing the resources. .

People, like mice will take the path of least resistance.

I say spend a little more for quality. Unfortunately it is often hard to find unless you spend a lot more. In a recent search for a new planer, I came within a gnat's posterior of buying an imported machine. Not because I did not want a USA machine, it was because new USA machines are priced out of the consumer market. Example: the smallest Newman Whitney planer offered today is 30" wide and sells for $54,000. I ended up with a really slick used PM225 - USA made 3350 lbs. The new PM2510 (Taiwan made) weighs 1500 lbs less!

By following the path of least resistance we have "Wal Marted" our domestic machinery production. I vote for Canada and the U.S. to join forces to show the Pacific rim how it's done.

Rob

[Dev Emch]

People, like mice will take the path of least resistance.

I say spend a little more for quality. Unfortunately it is often hard to find unless you spend a lot more. In a recent search for a new planer, I came within a gnat's posterior of buying an imported machine. Not because I did not want a USA machine, it was because new USA machines are priced out of the consumer market. Example: the smallest Newman Whitney planer offered today is 30" wide and sells for $54,000. I ended up with a really slick used PM225 - USA made 3350 lbs. The new PM2510 (Taiwan made) weighs 1500 lbs less!

By following the path of least resistance we have "Wal Marted" our domestic machinery production. I vote for Canada and the U.S. to join forces to show the Pacific rim how it's done.

Rob

An old red neck bumper sticker says it better than anything any politician has said recently. BUY AMERICAN! THE JOB YOU SAVE MAY BE YOUR OWN!

[Gary Breckenridge]

:( Two tools that I bought recently were a Stanley #90 plane and a Crown marking knife. Both were from England and kind of junky. I also placed an order with Lee Valley; first rate stuff here.:o

[Jay T. Marlin]

What kind of tools do you plan on making? Handtools? Jigs like Incra and Jointech? Or machinery?

[Jay T. Marlin]

This is the issue in my opinion. If the American public doesn't place a premium on craftsmanship, innovation, design, or quality - whether it be cars, furniture, or tools - then I don't believe anyone going in to business with these objectives can be successful.

I agree. There are a few American companies that do make premium quality machines... Komo and Mereen Johnson come to mind... both of which sell to industry, not consumers.

Sawstops are made in Taiwan, and Oneida's future is questionable.

[tod evans]

every one, thanks for chipping in! as for starting a company to manufacturer tools in north america it`s only an idea, one that sprouted right here on this forum. do i think it`s doable? heck yeah it`s doable! can any of us do it on our own? maybe, but common sence tells me that i can`t......we`ve had folks offer to chip in in their areas of expertise many of these i`m a total idiot in. i wouldn`t have the faintest idea on how to begin to bring this idea of starting a manufacturing company to fruition? again common sence says that those who are truely interested should get together and develop some sort of strategy.as i said earlier i`m willing to invest what little money i have and all the waking hours i can spare but i`m not the fellow to take hold of the reins and drive this team!

and dev, let`s not kill the children yet:) ....02 tod

[Rob Will]

I've been reading Greek history recently. Our 230 yrs. as a nation is nothing. We're hardly out of our diapers. So, this is an important subject. This kind of dialogue will determine whether we continue to flourish as a country for another 230 yrs., or, like so often happened in Greek history, we lose our way of life.
John

The years following WWII were the high point. Since that time, other nations have recovered and done a lot of catch-up. The Chinese economy is now a huge player and a huge consumer. Steel, Petroleum etc.

John is right, the playing field has changed and we need to pay attention to our game. I was not around during WWII but it seems that most things today can be traced back to those years in one way or another.

Rob

[Frank Chaffee]

SHANGHAI, China (AP) -- Google Inc. launched a search engine in China on Wednesday that censors material about human rights, Tibet and other topics sensitive to Beijing -- defending the move as a trade-off granting Chinese greater access to other information.
Within minutes of the launch of the new site bearing China's Web suffix ''.cn,'' searches for the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement showed scores of sites omitted and users directed to articles condemning the group posted on Chinese government Web sites.
Searches for other sensitive subjects such as exiled Tibetan leader the Dalai Lama, Taiwan independence, and terms such as ''democracy'' and ''human rights'' yielded similar results.
In most such cases, only official Chinese government sites or those with a ''.cn'' suffix were included.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-China-Google.html
Interesting tidbit about one of our trading partners.
Frank

[Ed Labadie]

How about Woodmaster? Excellent USA made equipment at not much more $$$$ than the imports.
Their drum sanders also fill a market spot that nobody else covers.

Ed

[John Bailey]

One plan would go something like this:<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->1.<!--[endif]-->Pick a spot centrally located in the nation. My pick would be the Ozarks because a project like this would resonate in that part of the country. And besides, I like it there.<o></o>>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->2.<!--[endif]-->Those who are interested would meet for a two day conference to discuss the idea. We would have to have some “experts” involved, someone who had some idea what things like nuts, bolts and castings would cost on a production basis, someone that knows something about marketing, and someone who knows something about designing, to name a few. These would be folks who are idealists and dreamers who would be willing to put forth an effort and, along with planning, be willing to do the dirty job of manufacturing at the beginning.

<!--[if !supportLists]-->3.<!--[endif]-->If it appeared to be a lost cause, at least we’d have a great weekend. If it appeared we might make a go of it, we would put together a plan to make it happen. Of course, we would have to research our ideas, then get back together.<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->4.<!--[endif]-->After another meeting to bring our research back together, we would have to decide wether or not to proceed, and if so, how to sell the idea to investors.<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
<!--[if !supportLists]-->5.<!--[endif]-->After getting the investors in line, those involved would get together to make the product. I would put one production run into place. By then the product would be marketed and be ready to ship out.<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
I believe we would have to come up with a way to manufacture a quality machine that would compete, not necessarily beat, in price, with the imports. It could cost more, but would have to be worth the extra cost and still be in the range where the average person could aspire to own it. I would make it a simple machine that many would want to own. A jointer comes to mind, but others would have more informed opinions than mine.<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>>
We would have to establish a new type of American Manufacturing Culture. Notice I capitalized that pharase. That’s because I think it’s the most important thing. I think it would take a co-op mentality where everyone involved would have a stake in making high quality at a value price. This would not be just profit sharing, but loss sharing as well. If the company loses, everyone would lose. If the company does well, everybody does well. Profits would have to be divided in a fair way. Management making 100’s of millions while others make $10 an hour could not happen. Entitled thinking would have to be left at the gate.<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
In the beginning, those involved with planning would be the workers. Those putting in their ideas would be the ones putting the bolts on. I believe that changing the American Manufacturing Culture would be our biggest hurdle. If it was accomplished, keeping out “greed” and “selling out” would be the biggest challenge. In the final anaylis, it would have to be done for principle, not profit.<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
Understand, I know nothing about machinery, marketing, business, or really, compared to many, even wood working. I’ve managed a few projects in my day and I don’t like sitting around talking about problems. As Todd said, “Cain’t never got nothin’ done.”<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>
Just for your thoughts,<o></o>
<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o></o>>
John<o></o>>

[Frank Pellow]

It sounds good John. Even though I am a Canadian, I would like to participate in such an endeavour.

I particualry agree with:



I think it would take a co-op mentality where everyone involved would have a stake in making high quality at a value price. This would not be just profit sharing, but loss sharing as well. If the company loses, everyone would lose. If the company does well, everybody does well. Profits would have to be divided in a fair way. Management making 100’s of millions while others make $10 an hour could not happen. Entitled thinking would have to be left at the gate.


I would would only want to particiapate if the tool(s) included some design inovations. Just producing another jointer, has no appeal at all for me.

[Allen Grimes]

I think for something like this to work, the first thing you would have to do is get the idea of profit out of your head. It would have to be a non-profit orginization. Not in the legal sense, but in the sense that this would be for the better of the country, not our pocket books.

I would say that to be fair, those who are starting it should get a little bigger paycheck than the rest, but as a paycheck for work done, not for profits made. I would say any profits, should not be given as bonuses to anybody, but to R&D and other things that would help the business grow.

There should also be an amount of money that is put aside for the inevitable lawsuits and whatnot. That would be necessary to prevent closing down shops in emergency situations.

The bottom line is people are greedy, but if you want to compete, then greed is your enemy. Greed can only lead to 2 things, bankruptcy(sp?) or importing. Both of which are failure.

Anyway. I dont know much about this sort of stuff, but I cant see this being successful if everybody is going it thinking about what they can get out of it.

[Bill Fields]

For the moment, let's put aside all of the "bad" aspects of outsoucing--such as loss of jobs, creating riches for a nation that frequently appears to threaten us, etc.

The one shining example of "good" is that we get to spend (way) less for stuff that works better (in some cases) than we otherwise would. That is why we are called "the richest nation on earth". And this is not about "rich" as a class of people. It is about the collective buying/earning/efficiency of average Americans. It is about the fact that our food costs are among the lowest in the world.

Whole texbooks have been written about the pro's and con's of outsourcing. The worst "con" in my opnion, is the severe economic and psychological blow of job loss.

BILL FIELDS

[Bill Fields]

And, what about Dino at EurekaZone? Designed and built in the USA, with input from users?

[tod evans]

john, i really like the idea of "everyone works" and "no selling out" , i think everyone who`s responded pretty much agrees on the quality issues. i have in`s in several facets of manufacturing, friends with cnc lathes, mills, waterjet equipment etc. as well as stainless fabrication but casting is outta my league. i just happen to know of a lil` ol` shop in the ozarks that would be delighted to host a get-to-gether too:) but i think before anyone jumps in the car for a journey there`s lots of particulars that need to be bounced around, and these are most conveniently done right at home/work on the computer. ......02 tod

[Michael Gibbons]

Well Tod, you really got some ideas stirring! Now for my two cents. I work for Ford Motor Co. and as most of you heard there will be plant closings which will impact thousands of lives. I may lose my job in the future, but who knows. My plant is not directly affected by the press conference announcements made on Monday. First and foremost I always prefer to buy American and I am willing to pay the higher cost because I know that we can build anything better than anyone else in the world. We were the originators of manufacturing. One of the biggest mistakes we made was showing other counties how to do it. Now they are using that against us. Too many imports not enough exports, not enough import taxes. Global economy? There is nothing I can think of that we need from anyone else that we can't make or produce here. Unions were a good idea when they started. They insured decent pay, benefits and working conditions but its also a curse. We are getting paid between the hourly wage and other benefits what roughly adds up to about $60.00/ hour. I can't complain but I see where we are headed. We can't continue to make so much more than our Japanese counterparts. It hurts our competitiveness in the sales of our vehicles. I have to give them credit. The Japanese workers believe its an honor to work. Our people think it's their right. I've seen people do nothing for 12 hours and get paid for it. Would you believe that people don't show up for work and demand that they keep their job? I rarely shop at Wal-Mart. Allthough they do carry pocketless t-shirts in 10 colors and alot of them in 3XL that no one else carries so I buy them there. They are made in Honduras with U.S. fibers. Nobody on this thread better buy any more Honduras Mahagony for their projects. I believe we are in a downward spiral that won't stop until Americans get that patriotic spirit rekindled and admit we need to make sacrifices to get our country back.

[John Bailey]

Todd,

The first meeting would only be to discuss all those issues to see if the group could continue forward, and if there was enough expertise to follow through. It would have to be a tough, honest discussion with a good dose of reality. So, a drive or flight to the Ozarks for a few days is all that would be invested.

I've got a week off somewhere around the last week of March or first week of April. I'll get the dates tomorrow and get back with you. Get that lil' ol' shop ready for a meetin'. I drove down last year during that time cause I hadn't been in that area for about 20 years and wanted to look up some old friends. Only takes me about 14 hours. Don't know if there's anyone else crazy enough to make the long trip, but I bet there are a few in your area that would be interested.

I'll get back.

John

[tod evans]

man, it`ll take me that long to straighten up around here:)

[John Bailey]

Hey,

I'll bring my own lawn chair. I'll feel more comfortable if there's sawdust around. When I first moved to Northern Michigan, my meetings at my house used to migrate out to the garage and we would sit around and on my old Jeep CJ-7. Lot of good ideas, discussions and decisions were made around that old Jeep. I suspect the lil' ol' shop might have some of the same type vibes.

John

[Frank Chaffee]

john, i really like the idea of "everyone works" and "no selling out"
The business model for this endeavor is of paramount importance. See my earlier posts and John Bailey’s which is quoted below.
Last I heard workin’ was good for yer health. As I can’t take mine for granted anymore,
i just happen to know of a lil` ol` shop in the ozarks that would be delighted to host a get-to-gether tooI may put such a gathering on my calendar.


We would have to establish a new type of American Manufacturing Culture. Notice I capitalized that pharase. That’s because I think it’s the most important thing. I think it would take a co-op mentality where everyone involved would have a stake in making high quality at a value price. This would not be just profit sharing, but loss sharing as well. If the company loses, everyone would lose. If the company does well, everybody does well. Profits would have to be divided in a fair way. Management making 100’s of millions while others make $10 an hour could not happen. Entitled thinking would have to be left at the gate. …keeping out “greed” and “selling out” would be the biggest challenge. In the final anaylis, it would have to be done for principle, not profit Oh gosh John, now you are pluckin’ my strings, as, near as I can tell no real profit ever comes from efforts that aren’t principled, and principled efforts at best only lead us to greater challenges. But really, I am with you here.

Enuf for now, and thanks to you tod, you ole rabble rouser you, for helping to get people thinking and acting towards a cure for this country’s malaise.

Frank

P.S. There have been a number of great posts to this thread that I did not mention here, but I do thank all who are interested in this topic.
Frank

[Burt Waddell]

One smaller company comes to mind, "EZ Smart". A lot of us are supporting this young company. It is meeting our needs with high quality American made tools. Thanks Dino!!!

[PeterTorresani]

Unlike real estate, the location of a manufacturing plant doesn't really matter. The reason Wal-Mart and tool companies make low quality, inexpensive crap is because that is what sells (at least in high volume). If high quality sold in volume they would sell it. And they would buy it wherever it could be produced the cheapest. Why do we think that all of the tool companies are so stupid that they would miss the high quality, slightly more expensive market. Is it because they none of them do any market research?

Everybody talks about there willingness to pay more for quality, they say they prefer the mom and pop stores to megalow marts, and that they try to buy USA made products, but it doesn't happen. People buy what they think is the best value; this includes price, quality, service, and more. It's pretty obvious which of these is easiest to define, and easier yet to see which of these the market craves most.

The right choice for everyone should be the best value product. If Indonesia builds it, you would be wrong to buy American. This destroys America's incentive to improve it's manufacturing capabilities.
This same theory holds for components of a machine. If you were to buy an American made saw, would you want to know that the company bought the best value bolts, or the ones that were made in the good old USA regardless of price and quality.

I am also intrigued as to why Canada would be included in an American company, while Mexico, Greenland, Costa Rica, etc. would be left out. Is it English speaking countries only? If so, Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand, should be welcome. If it's friendly countries, then Japan, Poland, Belgium and others are standing by. If we're restricting it to countries that are geographically close, above 40 deg latitude, with a land mass over 500,000 square miles, whose people speak with a funny accent:) , then I guess it's just Canada.

Maybe we should start a tool company that builds the best quality tools, for the lowest price that allows us to make an acceptable profit on our investment. I'm sure that none of the other companies have thought of that.

[PeterTorresani]

And if the federal government would get rid of the outrageous tariffs on textiles, you'd be paying $2.00 instead of $5.00.

[Bill Simmeth]

And if the federal government would get rid of the outrageous tariffs on textiles, you'd be paying $2.00 instead of $5.00.Well, yah, and the little that's left of the textile industry in the Carolinas would be in, well, tatters.

[Joe Mioux]

There is no reason why the US can not produce a high quality product like the Canadian made General.

I was in my favorite wW store today, and just marvelled over the quality of product that General places in the marketplace. I keep looking at their lathes and compare that to Jet and say to myself, " Self, that is one really heavy, well machined and well made piece of equipment".

this is not to disparage, Jet, just to point out the quality of General.

How about an SMC line of woodworking equipment. There is enough brainpower here to come up with some good equipment! ;) :D

Joe

[Tom Sontag]

I can't imagine a more politically oriented thread for an apolitical forum!

I personally do not see the point. I love my country. I love my planet. Have you ever noticed that there are no borderlines on the planet when viewed from space? What almost everyone seems to forget about globalisation is that for every job lost here, there are desperately poor people who are better off someplace else. And, add it up, there is a larger global middle class now than ever before. Ever.

This is little comfort to the guy at Ford who just got notice, but please try and view such a large phenomenom from a little distance. Take care of yourself by training for a job that will stay. Take care of your neighbor by helping and being charitable in your community. Buy only stuff made in your state if it makes you feel better, but for me, if I root for a team, it is homo sapiens and the whole planet. Getting 2 billion indo/asians out of starvation in one generation is good, right?

[tod evans]

as the fellow who started this thread i`d like to appoligize to the few who feel this is more about politics than american made tools. please take the time to read what i`ve posted, the questions i`ve asked and the comments i`ve made, in this thread. then take into account that i am not an economist or a manufacturer of any more than wooden items who doesn`t like the choices available for tooling the average joes shop, and try to remember that i`m not one to have somebody else tell me what`s good for me and my family, and i think you`ll find that although i may be bucking the party line, the root of this thread is simply tools made here..very sorry for your confusion......02 tod

[Ian Barley]

I can't imagine a more politically oriented thread for an apolitical forum!

I personally do not see the point. I love my country. I love my planet. Have you ever noticed that there are no borderlines on the planet when viewed from space? What almost everyone seems to forget about globalisation is that for every job lost here, there are desperately poor people who are better off someplace else. And, add it up, there is a larger global middle class now than ever before. Ever.

This is little comfort to the guy at Ford who just got notice, but please try and view such a large phenomenom from a little distance. Take care of yourself by training for a job that will stay. Take care of your neighbor by helping and being charitable in your community. Buy only stuff made in your state if it makes you feel better, but for me, if I root for a team, it is homo sapiens and the whole planet. Getting 2 billion indo/asians out of starvation in one generation is good, right?

Seconded...

[Tom Sontag]

Well tod, you will have to explain what it is about "american made" that is somehow automatically better. If you want the "average joe" to pay up just because your product has the stars and stripes slapped on the side, well, the market has already spoken on that. Joe wants value for his money. If, as many have alluded, it is about keeping jobs here, then that strikes me as an extremely polically charged topic. The whole concept of America is a political one which was my original point. Why should I value the welfare of a stranger that shares my continent more than a stranger or two who does not? Or, if you prefer, why care less about them than us? Anyone who travels learns that we all have so much more in common than politicians and borderline drawers want us to believe.

Others have cited plenty of successful domestic companies (I thought Woodmaster was a particularly apt example) that compete on quality. If it is the quality of cheap product you bemoan, don't buy it. There already are plenty of alternatives.

Globalisation is an extremely powerful force. And it won't be long before market share gains made on price alone soon become gains based on price AND quality. Toyota is a good example of this.

For the record, my shop has large machines made on 3 continents, including north america. And I did read the entire thread before posting. I can see that everyone is being careful and that is fine, so am I. But it DOES seem like a political discussion to me because I cannot see any issue that isn't one predicated on arbitrary boundaries.

[tod evans]

tom,
if through the collective wisdom here longer lasting, more accurate tools can be produced in america that will be a good thing in my opinion.
if these imaginary tools can be sold to the public at what the public perceives is a fair price that too will be a good thing in my opinion.
if i play any part in their manufacture they will be built using american foundries, electronics and labor.
no i wouldn`t worry about taking jobs away from foreign labor and the american suits who exploit them any more than they have worried about the jobs they have taken from the u.s. manufacturing industry.
i`m very sorry if the premmis of another american tool manufacturer doesn`t sit well with you because just the thought of high quality made in america tools gives me a good feeling....02 tod

[Cecil Arnold]

Before I check in on Tom's post with my .02 I think I have an idea for a product. While it is not necessarily "heavy iron" it is something I think a number of us would like to have if price were not such a consideration. It would be a "middle market" tool that would appeal to the advanced hobbiest and possibly to smaller pro shops. What is it? a multi router. I know they are available in the $2500+ range, and griz has a horizontal boring unit that some are using as a substitute for $325. But to produce an XYZ capable unit at a price around $5-1200 (final price would obviously depend on costs to produce) might be the startup niche that everyone seems to be looking for. While there are a number of folks here who might be able to design the unit, what I have in mind is something that could be easily designed by the folks who do the design work for Woodpecker and Inca. A heavy gage aluminum unit with quality steel hold downs, bearings, and steel tracks, powered by an appropriate motor with the capacity to chuck end mills up to 5/8".

Tom, my problem with the global market place is that the playing field is not now, and may never be level. You and I have both cited Toyota in various posts as being an example of the gains made from quality and price, however the politics in Toyota's final cost to produce has been overlooked. That is the politics of Japan's social safety net (universal health care) vs. ours. I was as surprised as anyone 15 years ago when this issue was being discussed to see Orren Hatch and Ted Kennedy re framed it as a competitiveness issue, which it still is today. Ford et al have a $1500 per unit health care cost that is met in a different, less costly, way in Japan. IMHO we are paying for universal health care in this country, regardless, by the most expensive means available. That is through both emergency medical services (poor people call EMS rather than having the ability to go to a pay for service provider) and city/county charity hospitals. We are at heart a Christian country and will not stand by and watch people die, so we support this, but nor preventive health care. While the global marketplace is a good idea, you have also overlooked the issue of tibalisem, which plays a major role in all politics.

I'm not disagreeing with much, but the whole issue of USA made vs. offshore manufacturing is much more complex IMHO than we have the time or even expertise to address. I'll post this now, as it has been my experience that once I get to the point of posting on subjects like this the whole thing gets locked away by a moderator.

[Lee DeRaud]

Tod, I've stayed out of this discussion because it is intensely political at a very gut level. I think you need to take a deep breath and provide an honest thoughtful answer to a simple question:

Is what you're proposing really intended to be a business?

Because regardless of how much sympathy I have for your position, "because it gives me a good feeling" is not a sound basis for a business plan.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'll post this now, as it has been my experience that once I get to the point of posting on subjects like this the whole thing gets locked away by a moderator.Hey, I thought I was the "Designated Thread-Killer"!?!:mad:

[tod evans]

Tod, I've stayed out of this discussion because it is intensely political at a very gut level. I think you need to take a deep breath and provide an honest thoughtful answer to a simple question:

Is what you're proposing really intended to be a business?

Because regardless of how much sympathy I have for your position, "because it gives me a good feeling" is not a sound basis for a business plan.

lee, i honestly don`t know if this idea will ever take off? i think it has the possibility to be successful. if we look at the average u.s. manufacturer that has had or is having dificultities one common factor is an abundance of suit-n-tie folks drawing large checks and not actually building anything. all of the popular importers share this trait. if a company could somehow just produce without an abundance of management it seems they would be leaps and bounds ahead of the game......heck, i`m just a carpenter who struggles to put beans on the table not some business guru....but when i look at the offerings on the plate today i just have to wonder if there isn`t a better way.. most of the folks here are smarter than i am and so far it seems as though the majority are saying that if it could be done it would be supported. so far john is the only one to come up with an adgenda of sorts and i don`t think anyone could argue the fact that talking about building tools here is a step in the right direction? this wouldn`t be a business plan but talking could possibly lead to an actual plan......02 tod

[Cecil Arnold]

Lee, we must be the gruesome twosome then. Seems that every time I get insightful and wordy, and take the time to make a long post on something I see as a complexity, someone gets their feelings hurt and "poof" the thread is gone to moderator's neverland (not Michael Jackson's ranch, however where I might be able to get a big $$ payoff for not seeing anything). Do you think there may be too many folks here who wear their feelings on their sleeves? That attitude sure wouldn't make it in the oil patch.

[Cecil Arnold]

Tod, I think you are right to some extent about the suits. I taught at a small community college for some years. They had a permanent staff of around 280. Faculty, the point of the spear, or where the rubber meets the road, to use a couple of metaphors, numbered about 80, the rest were support staff. It was much easier to add a secretary, janitor, or CE coordinator than to add an English or history teacher.

[Bill Simmeth]

As much as I love the concept of everyone around the world holding hands and singing Kumbaya, I'm sure that the Chinese politburo and their newest corporate sponsor, Google, will make sure the human chain ends at the Great Wall.

I say, the heck with tools, lets all crank up the lathes and flood the Chinese market with cheap chopsticks and rice bowls!

(How's that for an apolitcal statement?) :p

[Ed Kowaski]

Cecil, if I got it right, your suggesting taking a currently available high quality US made machine, the multi router and making a cheaper knock off?

Seem like this is the same line of reasoning that spawned the situation that spawned this thread. :)

Ed

[Lee DeRaud]

Cecil, if I got it right, your suggesting taking a currently available high quality US made machine, the multi router and making a cheaper knock off?

Seem like this is the same line of reasoning that spawned the situation that spawned this thread. :)I think you're starting to understand why I've stayed out of this thread.:cool:

"Better, faster, cheaper...pick any two." And if you overconstrain the problem with restrictions unrelated to price/quality/functionality, you'll quickly find yourself working with "pick any one". Or worse, "none of the above".

[Cecil Arnold]

Ed, you can buy a Ford, a Chevy, or a Cadallac. Which one is the cheap knock off? Or you can get a Toyota, a Mercedes, or Hyundei (sp?) to put it in an international setting. Business thrives by filling a need, and while I'm not particulary pro business I think not everyone who woodworks as a hobby needs a $2500 machine. Unfortunately as a manufacturing entity the US seems to have to failed to innovate, giving us the same 1950s Unisaw with a few (very few) added bells and whistles. Could someone build a better multi router? I think so, but at what cost and to how big a market. Could someone build a multi router that performs as well at a lower cost, therefore opening up the potential market to sell more units, I again think so.

[Doug Jones]

My thoughts as I have read this thread, start small and see how it flies.
You need to produce a product that people want, make them feel they have a need for it even if they don't realize it yet.
The one thing that every woodworker wants, whether it be a beginner, an expert, round work, flat work, or anything in between, a reasonably priced quality measuring devises that even average Mr.X citizen can afford. Steel rules, squares, combination squares, T-squares. Yes, these things are already out there but they are priced at a level to where a beginner won't even consider them. So he'll buy a cheaper brand of lesser quality and from a different country. If you get a customer as a beginner, then chances are he will stay with you as an expert. Then thats where word of mouth comes in as well as endorsements.
Why do you have to jump right into the big stuff first? Start small, get the companies name out in the market then use profits and recognition to get into the big stuff.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.

[Frank Pellow]

My thoughts as I have read this thread, start small and see how it flies.
You need to produce a product that people want, make them feel they have a need for it even if they don't realize it yet.
The one thing that every woodworker wants, whether it be a beginner, an expert, round work, flat work, or anything in between, a reasonably priced quality measuring devises that even average Mr.X citizen can afford. Steel rules, squares, combination squares, T-squares. Yes, these things are already out there but they are priced at a level to where a beginner won't even consider them. So he'll buy a cheaper brand of lesser quality and from a different country. If you get a customer as a beginner, then chances are he will stay with you as an expert. Then thats where word of mouth comes in as well as endorsements.
Why do you have to jump right into the big stuff first? Start small, get the companies name out in the market then use profits and recognition to get into the big stuff.

Just a few thoughts on the matter.
I suggest that Lee Valley is already filling this need (and filling it very very well). And, a lot of the measuring, squaring, and leveling tools that they sell are of their made in Canada (and sometimes the USA) inovative Veritas brand.

[Doug Jones]

I suggest that Lee Valley is already filling this need (and filling it very very well). And, a lot of the measuring, squaring, and leveling tools that they sell are of their made in Canada (and sometimes the USA) inovative Veritas brand.
Exactly my point. Speaking as a beginner (not that I am), "who is Lee Valley, who is Incra, who is Jointech, who is Starrett". You build a quality devise and market it in the common areas not just the high end places.
And thanks for the reminder of Lee Valley, I need to order some new rules.

[Frank Pellow]

Exactly my point. Speaking as a beginner (not that I am), "who is Lee Valley, who is Incra, who is Jointech, who is Starrett". You build a quality devise and market it in the common areas not just the high end places.
In the United States, Lee Valley markets in a very common area; that is via the mail and via the internet. They are also present at most Woodworking Shows and most Gardening shows.

In Canada, they also have stores in large urban centres across the country.

[Doug Jones]

In the United States, Lee Valley markets in a very common area; that is via the mail and via the internet. They are also present at most Woodworking Shows and most Gardening shows.

In Canada, they also have stores in large urban centres across the country.
Frank, I'm not dissing Lee Valley, its a very good quality online store. But your missing my point.

[Mark Singer]

I am hoping for a supplier form outside Earth....aliens using Kryptonite would be great! I think my work would improve as well as the life of the tools!:confused:

[Glenn Clabo]

"Kryptonite??"

Ya but Mark...How would you be able to work with these tools???? Would you be wearing a lead apron???

[Frank Pellow]

Frank, I'm not dissing Lee Valley, its a very good quality online store. But your missing my point.
Doug, I thought that your point was that Lee Valley did not have much of a presence. And my reply was intended to show that they have a very wide presence. And, I did not even mention their very extensive advertising in all the popular woodworking magazines.

[tod evans]

how did we go from "do ya`ll think there would be a market for made in america tools" to marks super-hero status and lee-valleys marketing stratigies?????

[Michael Gibbons]

O.K. Tod ,lets get to it. First we need a machine that we want to build.
Lets say a cabinet saw. As a group we need to have a poll to decide the the things that we like and dislike about the current offerings. Fence, trunnions, flatness of top ,top material, ease of alignment of blade to mitre slot, ease alignment of fence to blade, accessories that are included in price, guards and safety equipment, dust collection, table size, accuracy of the machining, motor HP, height of cabinet, do we automatically include link belts as standard equipment? Lots of decisions for a start.:confused:

[Bill Simmeth]

how did we go from "do ya`ll think there would be a market for made in america tools" to marks super-hero status and lee-valleys marketing stratigies?????Ya think this is bad, wait 'til our new company's first shareholder meeting! :D

[Lee DeRaud]

Ya think this is bad, wait 'til our new company's first shareholder meeting! :DYou mis-spelled "kegger".:cool:

[tod evans]

O.K. Tod ,lets get to it. First we need a machine that we want to build.
Lets say a cabinet saw. As a group we need to have a poll to decide the the things that we like and dislike about the current offerings. Fence, trunnions, flatness of top ,top material, ease of alignment of blade to mitre slot, ease alignment of fence to blade, accessories that are included in price, guards and safety equipment, dust collection, table size, accuracy of the machining, motor HP, height of cabinet, do we automatically include link belts as standard equipment? Lots of decisions for a start.:confused:

michael, i think even this simple task of deciding what if any machines could be built is putting the cart ahead of the horse....i haven`t sorted through all the comments yet to attempt to figure out who really is interested in investing any thought into this matter? right now it seems to me that the entire idea is looked upon as some type of political dissention by some and an exersize in futility by others......yet others have taken the spirit of the idea as i intended.....as an idea possibly worth looking into.... if this thread doesn`t get the ax and kind of stays on the track i`d hoped maybe it`ll get to the actual design stage? but we`ve got a long way to go.........02 tod

[Michael Gibbons]

Sorry Tod, I was trying to steer the thread closer to the objective of building a machine. We could at least figure out some of the details and we'll see where it goes. The members could add in as each detail is worked out.

[Cecil Arnold]

Tod, to attempt to decision make in the current context is just not possible IMHO. It is like trying to herd cats. I think what you need to do is re frame the thread. You might want to consider asking some pointed questions. For example:
1. What type of high quality woodworking tool do you think we could manufacture that would be supported by the hobbyist/professional.
2. Who/what is/are the competition.
3. What price point would we have to achieve in order to support the company.
4. At the above price point and considering quality issues, could we be competitive.

When I was in the fire station (many years ago) I had the opportunity to do a lot of reading. One of the books that impressed me was by Peter Drucker (I think) called "In Search of Excellence." The theme he found from his study of companies that were considered outstanding in their field was that they did one thing and did that one thing well. Unfortunately a number of those companies failed to heed Druckers advice and branched out, failed to innovate, or made stupid errors trying to increase market share. New Coke, Digital Equipment are the two that come to mind.

There are a number of ways to focus on what you are trying to achieve, but none of them to my knowledge, can be effectively utilized in this forum.

Now having said that, I could consider investing some small amount in a start-up that looked promising.

[Doug Jones]

Is a company that makes one machine going to be profitable enough to sustain itself?
Questions that need to be asked.

[Mark Singer]

how did we go from "do ya`ll think there would be a market for made in america tools" to marks super-hero status and lee-valleys marketing stratigies?????

Tod,
Your still behind....I am in outerspace...Kryptonite tools...SuperWoodworker! Faster than a speeding saw....able to leap tall cabinets with a mighty clamp...look ...up by the cyclone....its a duct....its a chicken....no its Superwoodworker.! (all of his tools are from outerspace):rolleyes:

[Frank Pellow]

how did we go from "do ya`ll think there would be a market for made in america tools" to marks super-hero status and lee-valleys marketing stratigies?????
Any company that might get formed could do a lot worse than emulate Lee Valley's marketing strategies. And while the new company is at it, Lee Valley's customer service strategies, and their inovative tool design and development strategies, etc, etc, etc.

[Doug Jones]

Now it starts,,, I'm going to go turn something.

[tod evans]

Any company that might get formed could do a lot worse than emulate Lee Valley's marketing strategies. And while the new company is at it, Lee Valley's customer service strategies, and their inovative tool design and development strategies, etc, etc, etc.

frank, lee valley is a company i patronize, and have for years! and i agree that any company formed would do well to emulate many of their facets. but certainly you can see that at this stage any entinty that might be born out of this fracus will need to first determine if there are any products that could be produced that would offer the consumer something not currently on the plate at a price that would be marketable...that will be the first of many hurdles to overcome before the first dime is spent on any type of prototypes let alone marketing or customer service. maybe mark is right and this subject is best sent into orbit and we all just accept the offerings of the big boys like `em or not???? .02 tod

[Ole Anderson]

One thing I see as I read this thread, is that there is already a lot of good American wood working machinery and tools out there, ones I never heard of. What we we can do, without starting a company or a war of words is to COMPILE A LIST OF AMERICAN WOODWORKING TOOL MANUFACTURERS. Any volunteers that have more time on their hands and more knowledge than I do?

[Don Baer]

One thing What we we can do, without starting a company or a war of words is to COMPILE A LIST OF AMERICAN WOODWORKING TOOL MANUFACTURERS.


OK I'll start

Binford Tools.....:D

[Ole Anderson]

Arrrr...Arrrr

[Lee DeRaud]

What we we can do, without starting a company or a war of words is to COMPILE A LIST OF AMERICAN WOODWORKING TOOL MANUFACTURERS. OK I'll start

Binford Tools.....:DDepending on how strictly you define "AMERICAN WOODWORKING TOOL MANUFACTURERS", that may be the entire list.:eek:

[Mark Singer]

Lie Neilsen......is usa if I am not mistaken or is it now made over seas in a small place where people eat different ethnic foods:confused:

[John Bailey]

Cecil,

The book I recall was by Robert Waterman and Tom Peters. It had to do with a business model that supported teamwork as being more successful than the more common top-down management. I think they called it "managing by walking around," or something like that. It made a lot of sense to me and I tried very hard to use tenets of their ideas when I was a high school principal. It's the first time I heard the word "culture" used in describing how corporations work.

John

[Joe Mioux]

Lie Neilsen......is usa if I am not mistaken or is it now made over seas in a small place where people eat different ethnic foods:confused:

Hmmmm.. Ethnic foods in Maine? Maple Syrup?!;)

[Cecil Arnold]

I think you're right John, the name Tom Peters rings an old rusty bell. The thing I remember is the Digital Equipment story. DE had a company wide motto or something which was "It Works" and everyone in the company was focused to see that it did no matter what it took. There were a lot of other insights there also. Another was looking at American railroads and the "culture" of "we're railroads" vs. we're in the transportation business, which all the railroad men seemed to miss. As to the teamwork idea, I agree with it until the teams become populated by sycophants ala Enron. When I was a program director I always liked to have someone around who wasn't afraid to tell me I was full of Sh-t from time to time. I found it kept my hat size to something reasonable.

[Aaron Koehl]

I am hoping for a supplier form outside Earth....aliens using Kryptonite would be great! I think my work would improve as well as the life of the tools!:confused:
Not Kryptonite! It's my weakness!

[Dev Emch]

Lie Neilsen......is usa if I am not mistaken or is it now made over seas in a small place where people eat different ethnic foods:confused:

Not sure about the overseas bit but my last shipping quote from up dere to down here suggests its near china! Would new england clam chowddaa constitute ethnic food? How about dem crawdaddies on steroids. I have seen crawdads from up there that huge! And quite tastey I might add.:D

[Dev Emch]

OK I'll start

Binford Tools.....:D

Eagle Machinery and Repair. Building #1, Oliver Machinery Company, Grand Raphids, MI. Contact name... Mr. Richard Fink. Can source entire machines if you wish from original patterns.

Northfield Machinery & Foundary.
Northfield, MN
Contact Name: Jeff Mahazek. Family owns northfield. Website at www.northfieldwoodworking.com

Central Machinery Company
Lexington, North Carolina
Contact: Don something or another. He is the owner.
Builds new and restores older wysong 284 hollow chisel mortisers. Finest chisel mortiser out there.

I can go on. Point is, you just need to dig a bit more to find these instead of just grabbing your convenient grizzly catalogs.:D

[Frank Pellow]

Cecil,
...
It's the first time I heard the word "culture" used in describing how corporations work.

John
Really John, I am surprised. Developing a "corporate culture" different and better than your competition, was regarded by management (which I usually wasn't I am happy to say :D ) as a very important thing in all the big corporations that I worked for. They even held seminars on the subject.

[John Bailey]

Frank,

"In Search of Excellence" has been around for 30 yrs. or so. 30 years ago my "culture" was on the back of a Harley, an old rat bike. The guys I rode with didn't think much about corporations. So, I'm no doubt behind the times in this area. But, I'm a quick study.

John

[tod evans]

i`ll veer away from step one of "who`s actually interested" and start addressing the what to focus on issue. first off my take is that the demographic should be the middle to high end home shop through the small commercial shop....okay? or off base?

should this fictitious company only focus on one item such as oneway has done? (no i don`t want to compete with oneway!) or should it go after the market share that was dominated by grey and yellow for so many years?? or should it explore totally new ideas perhaps those borrowed from industry, not necessarily the wood industry either....european sliders got the idea for sliding tables from the traveling tables used on surface grinders...so if out of the box thinking is an option which need[s] of the small shop do we address?

there is a company in az. called unique machinery who has some very progressive thinkers on board. they specialize in door making equipment such as for the cabinet industry. if any of you have seen or run their equipment you know what i`m talking about, 1 man 5 component arch top door 2 min. size changes 45 sec.and this is their manual line!

food for thought.......02 tod

[Bill Simmeth]

Tod,

I agree with your proposed target maybe tweaking slightly to well-heeled hobbyist and well-financed small commercial shops. I can't see this business competing on price, so quality/features must be the game. I also can't imagine the financing being available for an initially broad product line.

Speaking of sliders, how about a feature-rich euro-style slider? That niche is still very segmented making it easier to elbow in. And, to my knowledge, there's never been a true US slider.

[John Hart]

I haven't had a chance to read all the responses to this thread yet...but I will. In the mean time, I'd like to say that I'd switch careers in a heartbeat for this idea. You know, many large companies have become successful by consolidating the talents of a bunch of small entities (General Foods bought thousands of small farms and hired the resident farmers to supply to GF)

Great idea Tod....I'm in.:)

[Ed Labadie]

I've been following this thread as best I can with much interest. Being a mechanical designer (special machines, tools, gages & automation) I've seen first hand the decimation of the American manufacturing industry over the last 25 years.

Any product that gets produced if this comes to pass, must be unique enough to be patented to the point that it cannot be duplicated. If it isn't, an example will quickly find it's way overseas to be duplicated. Then it will come back at half the cost & 10 different companies will be marketing it.

Just using "American made" as a selling point will not generate enough sales to keep a business venture afloat. Most of the sucessfull American compaines still producing woodworking tools have found niche markets for their wares. This is the only way it would be sucessfull.

Ed

[Cecil Arnold]

Tod, I agree with Bill and Ed. I think that unless you can find major capitalization you need to develop one innovative/quality/features rich product. Then get all the protection you can to limit cloning. If that product is successful and you can get around all the associated problems of a start-up, then it becomes easier to find the funding for additional products.

[glenn bradley]

Just for the sake of argument, America makes some fantastic products. In the area of large power tools (this is probably my limited knowledge) it is depressing to see brand names I grew up around turning to not-quite-junk. We have the ability to dream up, design, manufacture and deliver very high quality products. In some areas, for reasons I'm sure exist, we have chosen to not lead the pack. The hit and miss quality of American cars comes to mind. Not trying to soap-box but I love seeing superior quality come from right here at home, and there are times that it does.

[Bob Aliano]

Assuming the quality would be no better than the better imports, the price has to undercut the competition to tempt me.

[Carl Eyman]

You've asked about quality, and you've asked about price. but what one must ask to define the issue is about VALUE. I'll buy American every time, but I must get quality at an appropriate price. That's value.

[Bruce Benjamin]

andy, i`m all for including canada in the mix. but i`d be supprised if they`d have us the way our government treats them.....02 tod

Wow! With that comment I'm done with this thread. I'm an American and I support America and it's policies! That's pretty messed up, Tod. I expected more from you.

Bruce

[Mark Rios]

I would would only want to particiapate if the tool(s) included some design inovations. Just producing another jointer, has no appeal at all for me.


How about a "Jointer Stop"? "Bandsaw Stop"?

[Anthony Anderson]

Wow! With that comment I'm done with this thread. I'm an American and I support America and it's policies! That's pretty messed up, Tod. I expected more from you.

Bruce

Bruce, This is a great forum, and people try to be polite and respect other's opinions. At times great threads get yanked because some choose to start lobbing personal insults towards people who may have a different opinion than their own. Please phrase your difference as such and not as an attack on a person's beliefs. Tod is a great contributor to this forum, and I expect no less of him, or anyone, than to express their honest opinion. As to your comment, It is my thought that I am a person of logic and reason (although my wife will disagree:D), therefore to blindly support a government, just because a person is a citizen/subject of that government, will eventually lead to the degradation of that government. To observe, question and learn is essential to survival, individually and collectively. I respect you opinion however. Regards, Bill

[Julio Navarro]

I can design just about anything. and I love R&D.

[Lee DeRaud]

I'm done with this thread.That's pretty funny: your first involvement with this thread is to criticize Tod for expressing his honest opinion...six months ago.

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

Amen Todd...we have to start somewhere in bringing back manufacturing to the USA...why not woodworking equip! Of course, we have to be willing, as users, to pay more than rice bowl wages or be prepared to know that our grandchildren will be eating rice.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

There are many good points made in this discussion and whenever I read someone saying good ole' USA tools, I always think of asking this........How many people bought Veritas planes because of the better dollar value over Lie-Nielsen?

[tod evans]

therefore to blindly support a government, just because a person is a citizen/subject of that government, will eventually lead to the degradation of that government. To observe, question and learn is essential to survival, individually and collectively.

thanks anthony!
i deleeted my tyrade and thought it wiser to quote you:rolleyes:

i`m still of the opinion that good high quality tools could and should be made here. i`m curious as to just how much of our steel and aluminum production is shipped to tai/chi only to be returned as woodworking equipment? due to the popularity of woodworking as a hobby in todays world (read last 5-7yrs) i`m willing to bet that if accessories such as blades,bits,clamps,jigs ect. where included that the gross tonnage would be 50% or greater than what the automotive industry ships over there? even if i`m off by 20% that`s alot of material floating back-n-forth that we as a country aren`t processing ourselves.....why? we where capable as little as 30yrs ago of outproducing the rest of the world combined as far as industrial equipment goes and the populatity of old american woodworking tools proves it. heck we`re now shipping lumber overseas to be processed into "furniture" that has helped spawn the insurgance of woodworking as a hobby........as a country we "work" so we can spend or monies buying tools so when we get home from the 9-5 we can work building the quality furniture we can no longer afford to buy? i`m just some ol` hick from the sticks but even i can see that most of us feel better about ourselves building "stuff" whatever that "stuff" is, so why not try and figure a way to build "stuff" for a living instead of working all week to be able to do so as a hobby? .02 tod

[larry merlau]

as a country we "work" so we can spend or monies buying tools so when we get home from the 9-5 we can work building the quality furniture we can no longer afford to buy? i`m just some ol` hick from the sticks but even i can see that most of us feel better about ourselves building "stuff" whatever that "stuff" is, so why not try and figure a way to build "stuff" for a living instead of working all week to be able to do so as a hobby? .02 tod

tod! now that's got it right and some great english too. here i thought you were keepin tune with your hound dog on the porrch:D

[Frank Fusco]

I support Tod's postion fully. I'm a proud American flag waver. I have devoted a large portion of my life to educating people, young and old, about the origins of our American freedoms. That said, the fact of life is, we Americans are also loyal to our pocket books. I did not answer the poll because, I believe, it should have one more option: 'price and value' are paramount. Most of us do not buy cheap just because it is cheep. Most of us do not buy expensive just because it is the most costly item out there. We balance quality with price and make a decision about value. Often that is subjective and personal but, in the long run, the best value items are what stay on the market. Tod, if you are thinking of a start-up company making table saws, lathes, whatever, you are looking at a multi-million dollar risk.

[tod evans]

frank, this thread was started for a couple reasons, first to get folks thinking. second i`d like nothing more than to see american engineering and manufacturing return as the staple of this countrys economy. obviously i ain`t smart or rich enough to wave my magic wand and make this happen but my thoughts where/are that with the collective wisdom here on the creek if such a dream is doable it could be started right here? if not well.........not the first time my ideas have proven fruitless...02 tod

[Dino Makropoulos]

frank, this thread was started for a couple reasons, first to get folks thinking. second i`d like nothing more than to see american engineering and manufacturing return as the staple of this countrys economy. obviously i ain`t smart or rich enough to wave my magic wand and make this happen but my thoughts where/are that with the collective wisdom here on the creek if such a dream is doable it could be started right here? if not well.........not the first time my ideas have proven fruitless...02 tod

Good idea Tod.

Invent a make new power tools. :)

Why not? :cool:

[Jerry Bittner]

All this talk US build versus foreign reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw reading Buy American -- on the bumper of a Toyota.

Folks, its a world economy -- get used to it.

[Dennis Peacock]

It's a world "economy". yes......

Junky tools from across the pond? Most Yes.....some No.....

Shake off the world economy stuff and why can't we be the U.S. of A. that sets the standards for the rest of the world to follow? Is it because we've become so passive that we dont' care who leads the way, just as long as the way is lead and we can "get by" for yet another year?

Sheesh!!! Let's wake up and get the U.S. back on track as a leader and stop China from taking over. <ramble mode off>

[Lee DeRaud]

All this talk US build versus foreign reminds me of the bumper sticker I saw reading Buy American -- on the bumper of a Toyota.Likely as not, that Toyota was built in Kentucky. I had the same reaction from my next-door neighbor (who works for a Cadillac dealer) when I traded my Canadian-built Oldsmobile for an Acura...built in Ohio.

Sometimes being the biggest customer really matters, even in a "world economy".

[Chris Barton]

I'm guessing that I represent your ideal demographic; soon to be 50, plenty of "disposable" income, longterm woodworker that likes high quality tools, subscribes to 8 woodworking publications, does all types of wood work including lathe work and even some carving. However, "where" something is made is entirely secondary to a number of other factors. Top of my list of desireable qualities of a tool is that it does what it's supposed to do well and accurately without too much fuss. Cost does figure in this equation but only in the sense that it's a follow-up consideration. I can give you a great example of this. I purchased a large lathe a little over a year ago and when making my choice I looked at many lathes and tried many ranging from >$8K down to about $1.5K. I looked very seriously at the Oneway 2436, a lathe considered by many to be the pennical of high end machines and unquestionably a very precise and high quality machine. This lathe is only available from a few retail sources and basically has to be built after the customer puts in an order, very few are sitting on a showroom floor waiting to be sold. The Oneway 2436 runs about $7K after taxes and before delivery. I liked it very much but, bought a Powermatic 3520a instead. That's because I honestly couldn't see how (nor feel how when I demoed the machines) it was to be considered better than the PM. My PM costs me around $2.5K delivered and including every accessory available. I know some folks (heck, many turners) who would give a certain body part to own a Oneway but, when pressed on why they can't really say. Perception is reality for these folks. Same thing with planes and some hand tools. Some folks can and do pay significant money for LN tools because of the "perception" of their status and performance. Yet, I bet with their eyes closed they couldn't tell the difference between a LN and a well tuned Groz (well under $100).

I was at my local Woodcraft this morning and noticed they are now selling Sawstops and are doing well according to the manager. I asked him why and his answer was simple: "the 50-something guy buying a table saw is easy to convince to buy the Sawstop not because it's a better saw than a PM2000 but, because of the safety feature." The hobbiest woodworker often sees value not in the performance of the machine but, rather in the perception of the value and in the case of Sawstop the safety sells. In the case of the Oneway lathe, it's value appears to transend performance and lies in the "panache" of owning a Oneway, kind of like owning a Rolex.

So, if the right machine comes along with the right perception of value then "they will come" and buy it. But, I seriously doubt that where it's made alone can ever again be the driving marketing message to push sales.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

To tool up to make a sliding table saw line would cost about 3 million dollars.

To Market the new line would cost about 2 million.

In theory you can do it on the cheap but you will be making the saws yourself or in India and selling them on onseys and twoseys for about 10 years.

[Steven Wilson]

So, go out and sell your current machines and buy Northfield; quality product, American made, will last for years. Oh yeah, start saving your pennies.