Bandsaw Vibration Reduction

[Evan Van Dyke]

I have a Rikon 10-347 that I have had for about 6 months. Love it, it cuts well, but I am getting to the point where I am trying to fine-tune the little stuff. The entire frame tends to vibrate when the tool is running, which is at its worst at the upper blade guides (no surprise, as it's hanging out in thin air as far away from support as it can get. This causes the blade / blade guide to vibrate a bit until the moment they touch the wood; the workpiece immediately dampens the vibrations and all is good. But this makes starting a cut a bit of a hit-and-miss operation - literally. Plus, it shows when using my wider blades on thin work...
- 1" Lennox Tri-Master (2-3TPI): amazingly smooth cut quality on anything thicker than about 3" (which is thick enough to stabilize the vibration). Thinner than 3" and the vibration causes a bad cut.
- 3/4" KerfMaster (3-4TPI): Great cut quality in just about anything - once the blade is in the wood the vibration stops.

The saw is sitting on a Grizzly Papa Bear (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-the-bear-crawl-papa-bear-mobile-base/t28923) mobile base, which is on concrete slab. Needless to say, I am thinking/planning on getting rid of this, since it seems like the prime suspect. However, if I take the mobile base away, what is the proper way to level the saw on the concrete slab? It doesn't have any leveling feet, and the bolt holes in the base are just for through-bolts. Like most basement slabs, mine is only kinda-sorta level.

Any other thoughts/ideas on vibration reduction here? I have tried playing around with blade tension, and that doesn't seem to make much difference, so I don't think it's a resonant frequency. Is there a way to test the wheels to see if they are out of balance? Any other ideas/thoughts on what may be going on here (other than me being nit-pickey)?

[Brian Tymchak]

Your lower wheel may be out of alignment. Check your manual for aligning that wheel. IIRC, the instructions identified symptoms that indicate which direction the wheel may need adjusted. This alignment helped settle my saw (10-325) down some, although not entirely. I've also had a bad blade that caused vibration but that should be an easy diagnosis just by loading another blade.

BTW, I doubt that the mobile base is causing any vibration that is showing up in the cut itself.

[Karl Loeblein]

See if this thread offers any clues.

https://www.finewoodworking.com/forum/rikon-bandsaw-model-10-345-big-problems

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Evan,

I've got that saw and I've never noticed a vibration. I bought the mobility kit with it so can't comment on whether the mobile base is contributing to the problem. But with all the wheels on your mobile base locked so the saw can't move, I don't see why it wouldn't be the same.

If you can't find any other source of the vibration get a chain hoist from Harbor Freight (assuming you have something to attach it to), lift the saw and pull the mobile base out. If the vibration goes away, order the mobility kit for your saw. If it doesn't, keep looking.

Cliff

[Pat Germain]

Does it have a V-belt? If so, I would suspect that. Swap it out for a link belt to see if things improve.

[Mike King]

take the blade off and run the saw. Does it vibrate? If so, it is likely the belt or a bad bearing on the lower wheel. If not, then look to the blade or upper wheel.

[Edward Weber]

+1 on using a link belt.

[glenn bradley]

Link belts are good for overcoming (read hiding) vibration problems. Don't get me wrong. I have used them on contractor saws and drill presses for just that reason. If I am having enough vibration on a 6 month old 18" saw I have questions before the warranty runs out :).

Both of my 17" saws are on Shop Fox Mobile bases that allow a pair of feet to be screwed onto the floor in the front positions. The saws still wobble if I make them by pushing repeatedly on the top area. The amount of wobble has not made me want to give up the easy, minor movement I occasionally want when cutting odd or really large things.

Let's pretend the base is fine . . .

- Does the saw vibrate without the belt on?

If so this is a warranty issue for sure IMHO.

- Does the saw vibrate without the blade on (and with the belt on)?

If so I would still call it a warranty issue but, if you are so inclined, balance the bottom wheel.

- Does the saw only vibrate with a blade installed? Any blade?

If so you can look to co-planer wheels despite the many. many reliable folks who don't care about co-planer wheels. :)

Here's where I'm going with this. One of my saws was acceptable but, I didn't like the position of narrower blades on the wheels. I spent about an hour setting the wheels co-planer. While I was at it I added a link belt just because I had some laying around. I then went through the normal alignment of a bandsaw table, guides, etc. Once I was done the machine was so spooky quiet I almost couldn't tell it was running. I am not sure which change caused this or what combination.

When I inherited an identical saw I did all of the above but didn't bother with the link belt. It is darn near as quiet and the next time I'm in the machine I will probably strap on a section of link belt just to see if I can match the machines up. My point is that if there is something wrong, you need to isolate it and report it as a warranty issue if it is that. If the Rikon norm is at the vibration level you are experiencing you will have to decide how far to go to clean things up to your standards.

[Chris Parks]

take the blade off and run the saw. Does it vibrate? If so, it is likely the belt or a bad bearing on the lower wheel. If not, then look to the blade or upper wheel.

With no blade run the lower wheel and if the vibration isn't there run the top wheel at the same time using a cordless drill. I don't see how an out of alignment bottom wheel can cause a vibration but anything is possible and I would do everything I could to prove it wasn't the bottom wheel before I would try any adjustments on it. Using a cordless drill you could remove the drive belt and run it with the blade fitted and tensioned.

[Andrew Hughes]

I used to have a laguna 18 inch bandsaw that would shake and vibrant. I found the base had a twist where it sat on my floor. I found the offending corner and added a shim. Ran like top after that.
My current bandsaw that sits in the same spot is Aggi b20/20 it has much heavier base and bigger. It doesn’t have any problems. That the light laguna saw had.
Good Luck

[Bill Dufour]

Site lost my long post so short version. Pick up some rubber recaps thrown by big rig tires. place under each foot of machine to soak up vibration. Discard any with metal in them.
Bill D

[Tom Trees]

Sounds interesting, I've just about done nearly everything with my Griggio saw, which is kinda similar
Too much to mention, and have posted some about this numerous times, here and elsewhere, with video documentation also,
and eager to get back to the last stretch of troubleshooting,
I've been doing more than adjustments along the way, so not afraid of what might need doing.

I pretty much am at a point where I should get myself a dial indicator to check a few things, but the workshop is inacessable for the next while.
A bit much to suggest such as of yet for this machine in question, just trying to give some perspective.
that would be down the line yet, as some things above are worth trying first, aswell as other things I've documented here should you look.

If nothing I've covered in detail (accurately levelling, wheel alignment in both axis, tire dressing, wheel rigidity, and likely other stuff I'm forgetting will sort the issue, or can be factored out,
Its just a guess at the end of a long haul of red herrings and whatnot, as I'm nearly back to guesswork again,
then my money might likely be on the frame being misaligned, as that machine appears to have a flange mounted motor,???
(meaning likely no adjustment is possible)
One could fit a ring to align with the top wheel, (top wheels are only adjustable in one axis, therefore the datum in my opinion, so bottom wheel should align,
and that ring
(Look up the new utube video of SCM saw being assembled w/ Sam Blasco which has this ring) sorta adjustable

That might sort out an alignment issue should the saw be a bit "tippy" if the base has a bit of warpage,
which may suggest no guarantee that the frame is spot on

But is the shaft long enough to accommodate that? mine aint...

I've bought a longer belt to try out, which is a cheap fix if it works, the old one is damaged anyway,
seems I'm being a bit optimistic,
just saying if you can prove this to likely be the issue, then it's a warranty job,
as I guess you don't want to delve down the rabbit hole of that issue, like I might have to with my old machine.

Good luck, hoping it's something simple
Tom

[Curt Harms]

Something you could try that's simple, quick and cheap. Take the band off and remove the drive belt so the wheels turn freely. Make a mark on each wheel and spin each one several times. If the mark ends up in about the same spot each time that wheel is likely out of balance. A balanced wheel when spun should stop in random places. I think the heaviest area is on the bottom. If the wheel is spoked you could try taping weight - something like washers or coins - to the wheel opposite the heaviest portion as a temporary fix. Run it and see if it helps. If it does, you'll want a more permanent way to fix weights in place. If you look at the back of the wheel I'll bet there are several divots made with a drill bit removing metal to help with balance. Maybe there aren't enough or in the right place. Beyond that or a wonky blade, I don't have a guess.

[Pat Germain]

Link belts are good for overcoming (read hiding) vibration problems.

On the contrary, a v-belt itself can add a lot of vibration. They tend to have an inherent shape and, when turned, that inherent shape causes vibration. My contractor saw is far from a precision machine, but when I had a v-belt on it, the motor would bounce up and down. A link belt fixed that problem and not only did it eliminate a lot of vibration, the saw cuts better as well because the belt isn't slipping.

[Bernie Kopfer]

I have the same saw with the same Trimaster blade. Vibration is very much in the acceptable range. There has been a great deal of excellent advice and recommendations provided so far and unfortunately you will have to work through them one by one. I’m with Cliff and heartily recommend the Rikon mobility kit. With it you can easily adjust the saw for even weight distribution on a uneven floor. I recommend pieces of plastic laminate for shims if needed. Please follow through and let us know what the solution is.

[glenn bradley]

On the contrary, a v-belt itself can add a lot of vibration. They tend to have an inherent shape and, when turned, that inherent shape causes vibration. My contractor saw is far from a precision machine, but when I had a v-belt on it, the motor would bounce up and down. A link belt fixed that problem and not only did it eliminate a lot of vibration, the saw cuts better as well because the belt isn't slipping.

I think you may have misunderstood me or I wasn't clear (not a new thing for me). I was saying that link belts reduce vibration and are a good thing :).

[Edward Weber]

On the contrary, a v-belt itself can add a lot of vibration. They tend to have an inherent shape and, when turned, that inherent shape causes vibration. My contractor saw is far from a precision machine, but when I had a v-belt on it, the motor would bounce up and down. A link belt fixed that problem and not only did it eliminate a lot of vibration, the saw cuts better as well because the belt isn't slipping.


That's just what I was going to say.
Many times, if a low quality belt sits idle for a period of time, it stiffens (memory) to that shape. Like un boxing a new power cord, that won't straighten out. Link belts eliminate that particular issue, it is not a cure all.

[Pat Germain]

I think you may have misunderstood me or I wasn't clear (not a new thing for me). I was saying that link belts reduce vibration and are a good thing :).

My mistake. By using the word, "hiding" I thought you were suggesting the belt itself didn't cause vibration, but merely masked it.

[Alex Zeller]

My Grizzly had a vibration issue and I went through all the same steps. The first step should be to remove the blade and see if the vibrations go away. In my case they did. I finally tracked it down tot he urethane tires. I removed both of them and put the junk blade that came with the saw on and it was as smooth could be. So I bought a set of Blue Max tires and now it's so smooth I can balance a dime on edge, start it up and then shut it down without it falling over.

[derek labian]

The saw is sitting on a Grizzly Papa Bear (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-the-bear-crawl-papa-bear-mobile-base/t28923) mobile base, which is on concrete slab. Needless to say, I am thinking/planning on getting rid of this, since it seems like the prime suspect. However, if I take the mobile base away, what is the proper way to level the saw on the concrete slab? It doesn't have any leveling feet, and the bolt holes in the base are just for through-bolts. Like most basement slabs, mine is only kinda-sorta level.


I am using a Papa Bear on my 24" bandsaw and I do not have this issue. I assume you have it leveled and the feet down and it's sitting snuggly? What makes you suspect it's the mobile base?

[Tom Trees]

Just incase one hasn't seen this before, it should put to bed any notion of disregarding wheel alignment.
487740487741

That is from a General international factory where these guys are servicing a machine.
Look up "how its made bandsaws" on youtube for the video.

One can do something similar with a beam, but the table needs removal,
or possibly a laser without such madness :) whilst checking with a stout blade under tension, bit of back and forth to de/retension blade whilst adjusting.

I've spent lots of time regarding wheel protrusion, with no/very little change,
Next round for me, after a long haul or repairs and fabrications is
to delve into focusing on the motor, pulley, shaft runout, wheel runout , groove for belt and possibly wheel balancing....
First this is actually finding a way of accurately&easily checking alignment, which I've yet to see.

Obviously any significant runout would be a warranty issue
and I'm hopeful for you and myself that things are good in those regards.
I've gotta question whether some design elements in many many machines are like so.
Have a look at the new SCM formula's motor assembly, that ring makes sense to me... should it have grub screws
"timestamped" video to the motor mounted ring being assembled.
https://youtu.be/8dram4Wx4E4?t=50
Unfortunately, I don't have enough length of the shaft to make such altercations, (I made a slimmer one for other reasons)
Seems some more welding maybe down the road for me, which will require lots of messing about to figure out the best
way to check that alignment of motor/pulley against the previously aligned bottom wheel,
as a simple eyeball to see down the belt, hasn't been anything to write home about in terms of elimination it seems.
Not sure if your saw has a brake or not, should the motor vibrate if able to coast down a bit, should that possibly be more noticeable with one?
Thats my guess, should the wheels be in alignment.

Good luck
Tom

[Erik Loza]

Unrelated to any specific problem but always had this idea in the back of my mind to cut a hole in the frame high up on the spine of the bandsaw (assuming hollow-frame), then pour in a bunch of BB’s or birdshot.

Erik

[Tom Trees]

Hello again, still been mucking around with my machine and had this idea in the back of my mind for some time, so recently decided to give it a shot.
I reckon this stands a very good chance of being your issue.
I've successfully documented using the beam before to align the lower wheel to the top wheel....as the top wheel can only tilt, and doesn't have skewable adjustment like the bottom wheel.
Therefore the motor pulley must be in alignment with the upper wheel in this regards.

Using the beam and rule beforehand turned out to be pretty accurate as you can see, (won't bore you with those pics again)

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Gotta do what the top wheel says
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Continued...

[Tom Trees]

Nice to see a visual on things.
Going to get started making an adjustable plate for this flange mounted motor very soon.

It would appear this maybe the best way to highlight a problematic machine.
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https://i.postimg.cc/vHXTRzDR/SAM-6793.jpg

All the best
Tom

[Chris Parks]

Tom, can you please outline your thinking on why aligning two wheels will fix vibration.

[Mel Fulks]

We used to get some vibration . Change of vendor fixed it by better weld alignment.

[Tom Trees]

Tom, can you please outline your thinking on why aligning two wheels will fix vibration.


I think you may have missed the last two pictures Chris.
The misalignment isn't that apparent when simply sighting down the belt/hub, and not really any wobble whatsoever regarding running without a blade,
but this is an old belt, and not that tight, as I had to replace these motor bearings before, due to whatever positions the wheels were in,
The same brand and sized belt, (but may not have been the OEM size)
didn't like that atall and caused a lot of visible wobble, possibly even contacting the wheel hub, for the 5 seconds it was run.
This was before I decided to work on the machine, however long ago that was now.

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https://i.postimg.cc/ZY1mhHQC/SAM-6784.jpg

Chances may be, that even if the frame turns out to be right, it would sort out seeing if the pulley is or isn't bored on centre,
or perhaps some casting slag might be in the wheel groove or pulley if its also cast.

I've documented my machine as is, i.e the settings above,
should one be sceptical that the misalignment wouldn't be noticeable. (loose belt though)

Eager to see if I'm onto something, seems like it to me at this stage.

Tom

[Tom Trees]

Got a start made with this adjustable motor plate, I've posted in more detail elsewhere.
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Just incase those with a misbehaving machine was interested, seemingly a good place to post.

All the best
Tom

[Tom Trees]

Got about half way done today, seemingly one could possibly get by with a thinner plate compared to what I'm doing,
which may very well be quite informative in regards to finding a bump, warp or whatever,
That section is only 3mm, and likely similar to most machines, judging by weight specs,
so chances might be one could make it right with some persuasion instead.
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Just some food for thought.
Might yet be a wild goose chase, will be interesting to see the result.

Tom

[john hejmanowski]

I recently went thru a similar issue with band saw vibration. Posted on the Felder users group. Here is a copy. I should preface this with my thinking that the Felder quality (ACM manufacture) would have the wheels in good alignment.

A brief recap:


bought a used FB540 (21" wheels). The previous owner had little time on it but the tires were somewhat chewed up on the outside edge from blade teeth. I did not know any better about this so I used the saw as is.
After year or so the vibration just bugged me. I started by checking the wheels for balance using 'spin the wheel and see where it stops' method. I added automotive wheel weights to balance the wheel. But this method was too crude. The bearing seals had friction drag. I used adjustable screws to make sure the saw was in full contact with the floor at all four corners. I braced the top of the saw. I tried two types of rubber pads under the saw. No help.
I then tried replacing the drive belt and the tires. Got both new from Felder. Gluing on the new tires was not very difficult. No real improvement after this.
I then swapped out the static phase converter for a rotary phase converter thinking maybe running on two phases was making the motor lumpy. It did not help.
Next I marked the wheel quadrants and started methodically placing automotive wheels weights around the wheel. This time I used a vibration app on my cell phone to measure, record, and compare the various weight placements. (duct tape the weights in place during trials). I eventually reached optimium weight placements for both upper and lower wheels. Then riveted them in place. This helped.
After six months or so I thought still to much vibration. I mean, it was small vibration but could not stand up a nickle for more than 10 seconds. okay, maybe I am a bit anal but the eyes did not like focusing on a tenon cut with the background doing a shimmy.
In a conversation with Jeff at Northfield he had mentioned the importance of truing the tires, maybe more so than balancing. I can't find anybody to balance or true the tires for me so I get to thinking and the sandpaper square block pops to mind. I was hoping the saw back plate was sufficiently planar to the wheels to make this sanding block align correctly to the wheels. Actually I first tried to hand hold a palm sander in place while the wife turned the wheel. Not a good idea, can't maintain accurate position.
I created 3 x 3 x 3 square block. Put some magnets on the bottom. Stapled some 120 grit sandpaper to three sides. Used the sandpaper square block on both wheels. It's a slow process hand turning the wheels. I was not crazy enough to just turn the saw on. Thought about it, did not do it. Then i took off all the weights I had put on. Left on all original Felder weights.
Now the vibration is greatly reduced. Can stand a nickle on the table as long as you want. I am calling it good.
I am concluding my vibration problem was all about tires with high and low spots. The original tires were somewhat chewed up from saw teeth creating high and low points. The new tires that I glued on had various glue thickness creating highs and lows. Sanding the tires to concentric fixed it.

Here are some pictures of the sanding block. I hand turned the wheel, now and then bumping the block back against the tire. It takes a while, the arms get tired, beer is helpful, but the tires ended up true and flat. I then put a slight shim to one bottom edge of the block to angle the block and repeated the process to create a crown. Jeff said a very slight crown is all you need, maybe 1/2 to 1 degree. After trying the crown I am now back to flat tires and tracking the blade at the edge of the wheel with the teeth overhanging the edge of the wheel. I typically use a 1/2" blade or larger so this works for me. I have edge tracked a 3/8" blade but I rarely use it.

When you first start using the sanding block you can see the sandpaper scratch pattern and identify the high and low points. It varies from side to side along the wheel. Like flattening the back of a chisel you have to make the entire tire flat and concentric.

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/groupsioattachments/27951/95603146/127953/0?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJECNKOVMCCU3ATNQ&Expires=1674593342&Signature=1xBKU0YQkz4BsSgOz44wLmZ2RpI%3D (https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup/attachment/127953/0/squate%20block.JPG)

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/groupsioattachments/27951/95603146/127953/1?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJECNKOVMCCU3ATNQ&Expires=1674593342&Signature=sXGDhId%2FBHxXzjQJmVvn%2BOl2sHw%3D (https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup/attachment/127953/1/square%20block%20in%20place.JPG)

[Tom Bender]

Get rubber feet from McMaster Carr. They will accommodate about 1/16" of unlevelness. Add washers to get more, or use small pieces of peel and stick floor tile under the feet.

[Tom Trees]

Got the mounting plate aligned today, and thought I'd share some tips using this method.
Took some trial and error today getting the fit right, and another chance to use the alignment checking method for the motor.
Well easier said than done I was to find out!...

Thinking a short pencil would be the most suitable for the job, I kept breaking leads, slightly puzzled lead to pondering other ways to reduce
the force, thinking a wee spring might have been a good idea, whilst experimenting with the masking tape, but was still questioning how I succeeded earlier.

Two things became obvious, the first being the motor was adjusted at the max belt length, so the plank wasn't as well balanced.
The second was the length of the pencil, being longer I could see it compared, and possibly provides some sort of give, could be a mix of the three of these things.

Another little trick I found out, was turning the pulley, whilst lifting and dragging is the easiest way to draw the line.
Now one could just easily prick a few dots and join them instead with a rule, same result.
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Eager to see how it'll work now.... :D

Perhaps just another red herring?

Tom