Removing bolt for chuck installation on FS41

[derek labian]

I'm trying to remove the bolt to install a chuck in it's place. The bolt isn't budging. I've removed the two set screws for the bolt and I am loosing (or trying to loosen) in the direction of the head rotation. I tried some penetrating oil and a breaker bar but it seems to be locked in due to the centrifugal force of use. A bit worried about breaking something with more force. Any suggestions on loosening this?

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You can see the installation process here (at 737s):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlnpRUOsqUM&t=737s

[Maurice Mcmurry]

L.H. threads?

[Greg Quenneville]

The video shows a standard r/h thread, so loosen counter clockwise. Do you have an impact driver?

[Ron Selzer]

impact gun will loosen that better than a breaker bar

[Robert LaPlaca]

IIRC it’s a standard RH thread, I had the inverse problem of attempting to remove the mortising chuck from the cutter head so I could install replacement bearings. Only thing that seemed to help was copious quantities of penetrating oil and lots of cussing, the suggestion of a impact wrench sounds like a great idea, since I had the biggest Allen key in the chuck and was striking it with a dead blow that finally loosened up the chuck from the shaft.

[Erik Loza]

+1 for an impact gun. It’s been forever but I seem to recall seeing blue threadlocker from the factory, so you really want to shock the pulley free. Dewalt makes a 1/2” 20V impact driver that would probably make quick work of that thing. Best of luck with it.

Erik

[derek labian]

Thanks for the feedback. I also talked to SCM and they advised against using an impact driver instead advising to heat up the element to 700-800 degrees, then spray some PB Blaster into the set screw holes to break the bolt free. Doesn't seem like a great idea to me with the rubber wheels and belts there, but what do I know..

[Brian Holcombe]

I’d use an impact gun, heating it to 800 degrees seems excessive.

[Greg Quenneville]

Yeah, don’t go to 800°. That’s an odd suggestion considering threadlocker yields at less than 400°F. There would be no reason to use high temperature threadlocker on that bolt.

I can appreciate that bearings don’t like impacts, hence the advice not to use an impact gun, but if torque alone doesn’t free the fastener then some kind of shock is needed.

[Phil Gaudio]

I don't remember exactly what I did to remove that bolt, but I did find this picture of the event: note the bolt, and impact driver in the background.
IMHO one of these impact drivers applying a rotational force to the spindle will do no harm to the bearings.
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[Brian Holcombe]

I worked at an engine shop as a yoot, and we used impact guns to disassemble since it is easier on the parts.

[derek labian]

I don't remember exactly what I did to remove that bolt, but I did find this picture of the event: note the bolt, and impact driver in the background.
IMHO one of these impact drivers applying a rotational force to the spindle will do no harm to the bearings.
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When you released the nut with the impact driver, how did you lock the spindle to prevent movement without damage?

The PB Blaster had no effect, and since those wheels are rubber coated, I didn't heat it up too much. SCM did ask if there was any plastic nearby. I suspect he wasn't familiar with the specifics of this bolt/unit.

[Phil Gaudio]

When you released the nut with the impact driver, how did you lock the spindle to prevent movement without damage?

The PB Blaster had no effect, and since those wheels are rubber coated, I didn't heat it up too much. SCM did ask if there was any plastic nearby. I suspect he wasn't familiar with the specifics of this bolt/unit.

At this point, you have figured out that the documentation that came with this ridiculously expensive machine was less than adequate. At first, I used a scrap of cherry to lock the spindle by jamming the cutter block against the infeed table. At some point, I looked over the hardware that came with the machine, and came to the conclusion that the machined dowel that came in the kit fit perfectly in the hole in the spindle on the inboard side of the spindle (see picture). This locked the cutterhead in position.. I am not sure that this dowel was intended for this purpose (their documentation leaves much to be desired), but it did the job.
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[derek labian]

At this point, you have figured out that the documentation that came with this ridiculously expensive machine was less than adequate. At first, I used a scrap of cherry to lock the spindle by jamming the cutter block against the infeed table. At some point, I looked over the hardware that came with the machine, and came to the conclusion that the machined dowel that came in the kit fit perfectly in the hole in the spindle on the inboard side of the spindle (see picture). This locked the cutterhead in position.. I am not sure that this dowel was intended for this purpose (their documentation leaves much to be desired), but it did the job.
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Hi Phil,

I too originally discovered that rod fit the spindle perfectly, however, it bent to a 45 under the pressure of trying to loosen that bolt :/ As far as I can tell there is no documentation regarding the cutter-head, only the table installation. Maybe I'll try again with the 1/2 impact driver. Thanks for your response!

Derek

[derek labian]

Still no luck with this and no help from SCM. I did try the 1/2 impact driver, no movement. :confused: Maybe I should have gotten a higher torque driver.

[Jim Becker]

Have you asked Sam Blasco for input?

[derek labian]

Have you asked Sam Blasco for input?

I did actually. He thought it was stuck do centrifugal force but didn't have a good idea on how to proceed.

[Phil Gaudio]

Although an impact driver/wrench seems pretty simple, I have learned that there are a few tricks to make it more effective. Insert the bit directly into the chuck without extension bars: we want maximum torque applied to the bolt. Physically get behind the driver and make sure that the driver is directly in-line with the center line of the bolt: holding it off angle will reduce its effectiveness. Push the driver against the bolt: use your body weight. After checking multiple times that the gun is turning in the correct direction, squeeze trigger: how long? 30 seconds, a minute, maybe more. I would have someone hold the locking pin/bar in place at the other end of the spindle during all of this, keeping the pin securely in place and against the stop. I use a DeWalt 20 volt impact wrench in my garage and I would imagine this would make quick work of this task.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Derek, sorry to here the machine is still fighting you. My FS41E is 2004 vintage, I know a lot of things have changed, but the backend (business) of that cutterhead looks just like my 20 year old machines. I for the life of don’t know why the set screws in the pulley need to be removed, IIRC the set screws are the only physical item that keeps the pulley on the shaft from spinning on the cutterhead shaft, besides the light press fit. Next to the living hell getting the mortising chuck off my machine, removing the pulley was a breeze, all it took was removing the two set screws and a visit from a bearing puller.

So I guess what I am saying is removing those set screws might be causing the pulley to spin on the shaft, making your attempt to remove the machine screw from the back of the cutterhead futile

[Phil Gaudio]

Those set screw holes are located between the inner and outer drive belts of the pulley: they apply force to the un-threaded portion of the bolt: refer to the picture I uploaded previously. No question that these screws need to be removed.


Derek, sorry to here the machine is still fighting you. My FS41E is 2004 vintage, I know a lot of things have changed, but the backend (business) of that cutterhead looks just like my 20 year old machines. I for the life of don’t know why the set screws in the pulley need to be removed, IIRC the set screws are the only physical item that keeps the pulley on the shaft from spinning on the cutterhead shaft, besides the light press fit. Next to the living hell getting the mortising chuck off my machine, removing the pulley was a breeze, all it took was removing the two set screws and a visit from a bearing puller.

So I guess what I am saying is removing those set screws might be causing the pulley to spin on the shaft, making your attempt to remove the machine screw from the back of the cutterhead futile

[Erik Loza]

+1 to Phil’s advice about technique with an impact. I had to crack a crank pulley once on an engine that was exposed to water for an extended period of time. Solid 45 seconds with a 1/2” pneumatic gun before it broke loose. Had to sit down for a break afterwards, LOL. Was leaning on that thing with about the same effort needed to push-start a car. Additional thoughts.

-No surprise that the OEM locking pin bent. All the various drop-in locking tools I ever handled from SCM were of pretty soft metal. I’ve bent several, only trying to loosen the blade arbors on new machines. What if you got a Grade 12.9 socket-head bolt that had the same OD as the locking pin. Long, so there is a fair amount of smooth shank, then remove the head with a cutoff wheel and use it to lock the cutterhead? It’s virtually impossible to bend a bolt like that.

-“Yes” to torching the pulley but remove the drive belts first.

What a hassle. Hope you get it resolved one way or the other.

Erik

[derek labian]

Thanks for the advice Phil/Erik.

I tried a different technique as advised. 2+ minutes with no extension and body weight. The socket was smoking and the entire wrench was red hot. Thats a bit of workout as suggested. Phil, I was using a Dewalt 20v/MAX 1/2 with 330 ft/lbs / 600 ft/lbs of breakaway.

I'll try again when I can get some help to hold the locking bar as Phil suggested. Update: Tried that as well, another 60 seconds and 3 batteries worth of trying. No soup.

I did check the threads on the chuck just to make sure nothing had changed as far as threading direction.

[Phil Gaudio]

Well, that is unfortunate. My bag of tricks is empty, but dare I say: could SCM have somehow made your machine with LH threads? I can't imagine how that would have happened, but based on your description above, that bolt should have broken free (barring the factories use of an excessive amount of nuclear-grade permanent loc-tite). I'd be contacting SCM again to see what they can do for you. Sorry I can't offer more than that. Good luck.

[Phil Gaudio]

One other thought: I have seen double set screws used on occasion (Delta DJ20 comes to mind). Look in the set screw holes with a flashlight and make sure you are seeing the bolt, and not a second set screw.

[derek labian]

One other thought: I have seen double set screws used on occasion (Delta DJ20 comes to mind). Look in the set screw holes with a flashlight and make sure you are seeing the bolt, and not a second set screw.

Hi Phil,

That was actually suggested to me by Sam Blasco early on, so good suggestion. No such luck though.

Thanks again for the help!

Derek

[derek labian]

Sadly, no progress on this after six weeks. Luckily I've been working with sheet goods, but that time is coming to an end. The current status is no responses from SCM since the initial PB Blaster suggestion. Sadly this seems to be par for the course, where open tickets linger for months, and phone calls/emails are never returned. It's all very odd; they are disorganized or busy, and I know they are having technical issues with their portal. I was warned before purchase that SCMs didn't care about supporting anything under 200k. It doesn't seem like they don't care, but it does seem like it's not a priority. Other examples: I've been trying to get that Motor replacement for damage (factory damage) on my S640P for over a year, and I have yet to get even an ETA. I could go on...


Anyway, back to the bolt; I need to figure out where to go except for a higher torque impact wrench. I think the SCM advice about heating up the bolt was not good because the rollers and belts are next to the bolt. It may have worked but I don't think I could have safely gotten it hot enough.


I tried a "Dewalt 20v/MAX 1/2 with 330 ft/lbs / 600 ft/lbs of breakaway".


I'm considering trying an Aircat 1150 1/2 Impact Wrench with 900 ft/lbs and 1,295 ft/lbs breakaway. I'm still worried about breaking the bolt, but I'm stuck here. Any better suggestions?

[Jay Houghton]

I've found Kroil to be the best penetrating oil. From what I know it will reach extremely small openings because of the molecule size being smaller than other penetrating oils. Along with the others it sure seems like there's a mechanical lock going on, not Locktite or mere corrosion. I have a Delta 12/14 table saw and the stories of getting the arbor out are very similar. Might be worth a search on OWWM to see if there's a new strategy over there.

[derek labian]

I've found Kroil to be the best penetrating oil. From what I know it will reach extremely small openings because of the molecule size being smaller than other penetrating oils. Along with the others it sure seems like there's a mechanical lock going on, not Locktite or mere corrosion. I have a Delta 12/14 table saw and the stories of getting the arbor out are very similar. Might be worth a search on OWWM to see if there's a new strategy over there.

Kroil "The Oil That Creeps". Seems like that couldn't hurt. Any suggestions on how long to let it "creep"?

I'll poke around on OWWM too.

[Mel Fulks]

Jay, where do you buy those molecule- measure-rers ? My yard- sale Starrette micrometer won’t work on stuff that small.

[Erik Loza]

Derek, just thinking out loud: Is there ANY possibility that thing is actually LHT? Italy making some design change (for whatever inscrutable reason) and not telling anyone would be pretty on-brand. I mean, if that really isn’t budging, you’re not going to hurt it by reversing direction on the gun for a moment. It justs seems so odd that a 1/2” gun can’t make quick work of that bolt.

Erik

[derek labian]

As previously discussed, is that its difficult to transfer the power from the impact driver to the bolt itself. At the same time, you can put in that pin to "lock" the head; it's flimsy. I suspect a lot of the torque is transferring there. As another suggested, I also tried having someone hold that in place. In sam's video, he used a brass gib to lock the head, but that was with the strait knife version and doesn't apply to the insert head.

OWWM isn't indexed by Google (https://owwm.org/robots.txt) it seems and the internal search isn't great. The only thread I could find that's semi-related suggested penetrating oil or (ironically) PB Blaster. Full disclosure: I tried PB Blaster with the heat gun and several times separately. I haven't tried any oil, but as it's been suggested, this is probably a mechanical lock from the centrifugal force of the head.

[derek labian]

Derek, just thinking out loud: Is there ANY possibility that thing is actually LHT? Italy making some design change (for whatever inscrutable reason) and not telling anyone would be pretty on-brand. I mean, if that really isn’t budging, you’re not going to hurt it by reversing direction on the gun for a moment. It justs seems so odd that a 1/2” gun can’t make quick work of that bolt.

Erik

Hi Erik,

I did try that, for a moment. My biggest concern is breaking off the head of the bolt and I have no info on the tensile strength of the bolt. It was also suggested to try reversing direction briefly to break the mechanical lock. It would indeed be very odd if it was LHT since that would potentially loosen based on the direction the cutter head spins. I will give it another go for a bit longer and see if it makes any difference.

BTW, congratulations on the new job!

Derek

[Erik Loza]

Thank you for the kind wishes, Derek!

None of my business but if this really turns into an impossible situation, you might consider telling your SCM rep you want a refund on the mortising unit and look for a different path forward. I mean, “yeah”, there are certainly cases where the customer doesn’t have the mechanical aptitude to solve a problem on-site but it seems you’re way past that point and could make the argument that there no way any reasonable user could be expected to solve this problem themselves because it was a manufacturing or assembly issue. I honestly cannot recall a situation like this with any new machine during my SCM days.

Sales of mortising attachments really dropped off for me when the Domino came out. The Pantorouter came out just as I was getting out of the biz but seems like another step in that evolution. Lastly, FD-250’s are awesome and I belive Felder stocks those in TX. Hope you get this resolved soon.

Erik

[derek labian]

Sales of mortising attachments really dropped off for me when the Domino came out. The Pantorouter came out just as I was getting out of the biz but seems like another step in that evolution.


You hit the nail on the head. The Panto router is impressive; I don't want any more tools in my small space. However, I have some work to start where I need large mortises, so my choices are this attachment or a handheld router—Domino's won't work.



you're way past that point and could make the argument that there no way any reasonable user could be expected to solve this problem themselves because it was a manufacturing or assembly issue.


I wasn't kidding when I said I couldn't get a response; I don't know what the deal is. Sam did escalate, but that was two weeks ago, and that seems to have gone into a black hole (as in no response). I also had some good support, so it's a bizarre situation. I heard they switched to Microsoft recently as the backend, and it's been causing many problems. When I got an initial call from a tech working on an electrical issue (factory-blown fuse), he told me he had sent the info weeks prior. I, of course, never got it, but he said he had heard similar stories from other customers. The thing is, overall, the machines are great, and the problems are minor, but there's nothing more frustrating than no response at all.<insert shrug>


I'll try the penetrating oil, get the 1250lbs torque impact driver ready, and I'll probably open another ticket; they seem to respond to the initial ticket, just nothing after that. After that, they may approve of trying the more significant impact driver (now) or have another path forward.


Regarding the LHT, you are right about checking Chuck. I forgot, but I did that in the past (this has been going on so long I've lost track of everything I've' tried), and the Chuck was RHT as expected.


Thanks for the ideas and help, Erik.

[derek labian]

Well, good news. My escalation got me back on their radar, and, as stated previously, good guys when you can get them. They approved my use of the high-torque impact driver, but they also provided some fascinating insight. They tried removing the bolt from a brand-new unit (never run) with similar issues. They said there was no thread lock on the bolt, and the factory must tighten them with an impact driver or in some other way that seems overkill. It's nice to know I'm not crazy. The next step will be to try that 1250ft/lbs torque impact driver.

[Brian Holcombe]

1250 ft lbs is going to have an effect!

[Greg Quenneville]

When I first read that 1250 ftlb value I was a bit sceptical. Much like DeWalt's “20v” claim when in every other market they have to be listed as 18v. Even the mouth-breathers at my local tire shop only rattle lugnuts on to about 200 ft lbs, and even that is way over spec.

[derek labian]

1250 ft lbs is going to have an effect!


The impact driver had no effect. Sometimes it is hard to tell how much torque is being put out, but I felt like the Dewalt did more. Either way, the bolt is still in place. SCM removed it with an 18" long Allen wrench with difficulty, as stated. The real problem here is locking the head. I need help to lock the head that I could find.


When I use the pin with the metal rod, I think the play in the head absorbs the torque by allowing the head to move slightly. If I use the breaker bar, it simply bends the rod. Sam suggested wedging some poplar into the head. I tried white oak, and it split the blocks. A thinner piece of white oak just slips. It's not clear to me how you can securely lock the head on a helical head unit. On the strait knife unit, it seems straight forward. On the helical head version, the most contact you can make is with a single carbide cutter. Putting all that torque on the bolt transfers to the cutter and tears through whatever you have wedged. See picture.

Don't you have an FS41ES? If so and it has a HH, any ideas on locking it?

Picture one shows the rod in the head that bends with the BB and bounces with the torque gun. Picture two shows the wood block on the left that I tried to wedge into a cutter head, and also a thinner strip. The clearance between the cutters and the top is slightly less than 1/4" so not much room.



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Maybe there's a way to lock the head at the gears or rollers.

[Phil Gaudio]

Interesting: I put the pin on the other end of the cutter head, closest to the operator. I would think any hardened steel pin of the appropriate diameter would do the trick. I would have a helper keep the pin firmly in place against the stop.

[derek labian]

I would think any hardened steel pin of the appropriate diameter would do the trick. I would have a helper keep the pin firmly in place against the stop.

I did have a helper hold the pin in place early on. It made no difference. Its hard to explain but the pin has a bit of play.


Interesting: I put the pin on the other end of the cutter head, closest to the operator.

I'm not sure what you mean. I see no other place to insert the pin on the front of the unit.

I also tried wedging it with the top open which only resulted in bending that part of the dust collection hood :/

[Phil Gaudio]

Refer to my post and picture in this thread of 10/9: there is a hole for the pin on the cutter head shaft toward the front of the machine, at least on my machine there is.

May be worth seeking out a length of hardened steel rod of a diameter that fits snugly in the hole in the cutter head shaft.

Looking at your picture again: you appear to be using the small diameter of the pin in the hole toward the rear of the machine. I used the large diameter of that pin (which is 8mm) toward the front of the machine. No bending of the pin was observed when using it in this manner.

[Brian Holcombe]

If the impact driver had no effect, then likely it’s making the assembly spin of the toque rating is over-stated. 1250ft lbs should snap that bolt.

[derek labian]

At this point, you have figured out that the documentation that came with this ridiculously expensive machine was less than adequate. At first, I used a scrap of cherry to lock the spindle by jamming the cutter block against the infeed table. At some point, I looked over the hardware that came with the machine, and came to the conclusion that the machined dowel that came in the kit fit perfectly in the hole in the spindle on the inboard side of the spindle (see picture). This locked the cutterhead in position.. I am not sure that this dowel was intended for this purpose (their documentation leaves much to be desired), but it did the job.
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Ah, I'm sure I checked that at the time but that was a month ago. There is no such hole at the front of the unit as shown in your pic, but that rod looks identical to the one I'm using at the rear of the machine near the bolt itself.

The rod I was using is what came with the unit and is 8mm. Considering it looks the same and is the same size, its probably the same rod. How hard or easy it was for you to get your bolt off may depend on how it was installed as well.

[derek labian]

If the impact driver had no effect, then likely it’s making the assembly spin of the toque rating is over-stated. 1250ft lbs should snap that bolt.

I agree something didn't seem right with the 1250ft/lbs impact wrench, but the Dewalt 1/2 was working; it was basically smoking after running for 90 seconds and the Allen socket was hot hot.

[Phil Gaudio]

So your cutter head has the hole for the pin toward the rear of the machine: my cutter head has the hole towards the front of the machine: it does seem odd that they would have made a modification on this part since its only been available for a couple of years? It does make you wonder?

[derek labian]

So your cutter head has the hole for the pin toward the rear of the machine: my cutter head has the hole towards the front of the machine: it does seem odd that they would have made a modification on this part since its only been available for a couple of years? It does make you wonder?

It is a bit bizarre, and as Erik said, they probably aren't selling many of these add-ons anymore. I mentioned that SCM NA was surprised by how tight the bolt was on it. Unfortunately, I didn't find out if they tested on a straight knife version or an HH. If it was an HH, I should find out how they wedged rubber into it to lock the head. I can't see how you could wedge rubber into the HH version and lock the head.

Clearly its designed to work just the way you did it. :shrug:

[Brian Holcombe]

At the machine shop one thing we would do was heat the bolt and drip some beeswax into the threads. That was a last resort and often worked. If that failed, we would drill the bolt out just under the thread size and then peel the thread out.

At this point, I’d warm the bolt up enough for it to accept beeswax, then give it another shot after it starts to cool.

[Jerry Bruette]

I don't know the diameter of the bolt, but if you can drill the head off everything might release. I've had to do that several times with socket head screws. Either the socket would get boogered up or on a flat head like yours the taper of the head is wedged super tight.

You'll need a drill bit that is the same size or slightly bigger than the smallest diameter of the taper but not as big as the major diameter of the threads. You should be able to keep everything on center using the wrench socket like a pilot for your drill.

Drill slow and use some cutting oil.

[derek labian]

At the machine shop one thing we would do was heat the bolt and drip some beeswax into the threads. That was a last resort and often worked. If that failed, we would drill the bolt out just under the thread size and then peel the thread out.

At this point, I’d warm the bolt up enough for it to accept beeswax, then give it another shot after it starts to cool.

I did try heating it up with a heat gun and injecting PB Blaster. It probably didn't get hot enough because those rollers and belts are next to it and I was a bit concerned about that. Perhaps I'll try again with something more direct.

[Ronald Blue]

There is a huge difference in impacts. After a career in heavy equipment repair I came to rely on Ingersoll Rand composite bodies and Milwaukee cordless. There is also benefit to for example 3/4" drive over 1/2" drive. The larger impact while has fewer blows per minute they are more powerful. This doesn't help you much because you are already committed with what you have. Air supply is also critical on an air impact. They demand high volume and the less hose you use the better. Use at least 3/8" air line. Also if you can you can dial up the pressure. I know they say 90 PSI but 140 is better. Good luck with this.

[Ronald Blue]

I don't know the diameter of the bolt, but if you can drill the head off everything might release. I've had to do that several times with socket head screws. Either the socket would get boogered up or on a flat head like yours the taper of the head is wedged super tight.

You'll need a drill bit that is the same size or slightly bigger than the smallest diameter of the taper but not as big as the major diameter of the threads. You should be able to keep everything on center using the wrench socket like a pilot for your drill.


Drill slow and use some cutting oil.



This actually works extremely well with this style bolt or regular socket heads. We always drilled the size of the bolt. When it got to the base of the shank the head breaks off. Regardless the result is the same in most instances. The dimple from the drill is the center mark if you need to resort to more drastic measures.

[mreza Salav]

You need to make the bolt colder (not hot) to loosen it, not sure why they gave the opposite advice.
I don't know how you can make the bolt cold (dry ice? Liquid nitrogen spray?) then try the impact gun, or heat the block and then cold the bolt.

[derek labian]

There is an update. The bolt is off after a mere seven months :) After getting suggestions to try a few other things, SCM suggested a strap wrench. That worked well but ultimately slipped. I combined that with a rod and all my body weight, and it "popped" free. No thread lock on the bolt, just extremely tight. SCM did indicate that the factory put them on extremely tightly (made worse by six months of use) and indicated it would take two adults to break it free. One to lock the head and one to put equal weight on the bolt. I wedged the strap wrench under the bar support for the fence and did it by myself.

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[Jerry Bruette]

Good to hear you got it apart.

[Jim Becker]

Persistence pays off! 'Glad you got that out finally!