Application of criminal law in the Uk

[Brian Deakin]

An interesting application of the law in the Uk

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-63075277

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We have been watching "Homicide Hunter" on Hulu. If I had been a Cop I hope I would have been a Cop like Joe Kenda.

[Mike Henderson]

Not strange. In the US, the driver of a getaway car can be prosecuted for murder if the accomplices kill someone in the bank (for example). Even if the driver never set foot in the bank.

If you participate in an illegal activity, you're as guilty as anyone else in the group.

Mike

[Alan Rutherford]

What I found interesting about that story was the 29--year sentence. I don't follow it closely, but my impression has been that 20 years is a long sentence in the UK. In this country it seems like it starts at 20 and often goes right up to life without parole. I'm not for being soft on criminals but I think we lock up too many people for too long too easily.

[andrew whicker]

Yeah, I wouldn't get on US high horse wrt the justice system for sooo many reasons. We are very harsh. Required minimums can be depressing.

There's a video of a judge trying not to cry while sentencing a guy for 3 strikes on a nothing burger crime. Huge years for the required min.

Definitely not an aspect of US that deserves bragging.

[Mike Henderson]

What I found interesting about that story was the 29--year sentence. I don't follow it closely, but my impression has been that 20 years is a long sentence in the UK. In this country it seems like it starts at 20 and often goes right up to life without parole. I'm not for being soft on criminals but I think we lock up too many people for too long too easily.

The guys were all part of a criminal gang and someone got killed because they participated in a shoot-out with another gang (I don't remember who started it, but it hardly matters). I don't know what a reasonable sentence for that is, but it should be long enough that they're too old to be gang-bangers when they get out.

Mike

[Maurice Mcmurry]

This thread is destined to become political... I think that the Hulu show I mentioned was created to show that the US has some very good Cops and that Justice is sometimes (often) served. I would like to believe that the US and UK do better than lots of the world at perusing Justice.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

That is the good old fashioned felony-murder rule. Somebody dies as a result (even unintended) of your participation in a felony, you get charged and convicted of murder. As it should be. The rule was part of the Common law of England in some form or another since the 12th century. Written down and explained by at least one English author as early as 1716 William Hawkins, (not the Sir William Hawkins -1600's explorer to India) so the felony -murder rule came to the US as part of the common law of the American colonies. Nothing strange about it.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Yes we do. There were two recent cases here. a guy killed his granddaughter' guinea pig while he was in a rage over the stench in the house because no one would keep the cage clean. Mandatory 2 yr sentence for animal abuse. That same week, a woman broke into her ex-husband's house and stabbed his girlfriend. The stabber, who tried to murder a human being, got probation. Second time offender illegal gun trafficking defendant, caught with 8 stolen guns, also got probation. I see no parity in what they call justice, and I am a retired attorney.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The system definitely has flaws. An interesting and terrifying case in our town still has lots of us confused. It is the unsolved murder of Kent Heitholt, Columbia MO

Erickson, Ferguson trial still disturbing 20 years after Heitholt murder | Local Columnists | columbiamissourian.com (https://www.columbiamissourian.com/opinion/local_columnists/erickson-ferguson-trial-still-disturbing-20-years-after-heitholt-murder/article_04c2f4f6-3e3f-11ec-bb82-8fcd153a1c45.html)

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Yeah, I wouldn't get on US high horse wrt the justice system for sooo many reasons. We are very harsh. Required minimums can be depressing.

There's a video of a judge trying not to cry while sentencing a guy for 3 strikes on a nothing burger crime. Huge years for the required min.

Definitely not an aspect of US that deserves bragging.

Here in PA, we have a rule that no matter how little the item, a 4th shop lifting offense is a felony. I thought at first that it was too harsh for such things as a pack of gum. (A juvenile girl I was representing as a young attorney) Over the years though, I realized that most of the 4th time offenders were such incredible recurrent thieves, that they would walk away with anything that wasn't nailed down that they could sell. The last one before I retired was a middle aged woman who got caught trying to steal a vibrator from an adult toy shop. So it was a felony. When I looked up the items she had stolen in the past offenses, I also found numerous shop lifting charges in other states as well as trespass notices given to her to stay out of stores where she was caught and not prosecuted. Seems the porn shop had her dead to rights on 2 video cameras at the same time. Remarkably, I was able to work out a reduced sentence which the judge scoffed at but eventually accepted. Last time I saw her, she was being sentenced for having $400 worth of steaks hidden in her raincoat.

[Brian Deakin]

Not in this instance as the minimium term has been set at 29 years but in some other circumstances in the Uk a criminal can apply for perole 1/2 to 2/3 through thier sentance If they are given early release then re offend or break the conditions of thier parole then they are immediatly returned to prison to complete the remainder of thier sentance

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

pretty much the same for violation of probation or parole in the US. Had a ne'er do well father who got custody and $18K a year in spousal and child support from the mother. A week later she claims she was the victim of his terroristic threats and death threats in a phone conversation. He was already on probation and was sent back to jail while waiting for trial on the threats charges. Lost the kids got no support, lost the part time job he had. 8 months later, the jury was out 14 minutes and came back not guilty. He was forced to serve 8 months in jail because the wife wanted out of paying him support. But before you feel too badly for him, he also had another drug charge pending somehow from before the one he served the first time for. We managed to get him credit for the 8 months off that drug offense time.

[andrew whicker]

I don't understand. He got screwed by the system, but I shouldn't feel bad because he had a minor (?) drug charge?

Were you a defense attorney then? My grandpa was a defense attorney. Lots of stories.

[Mel Fulks]

Well Perry, I agree. There is a old saying that goes….something like this. “They made him the guinea pig”. As an attorney ,you know that
the fact that the animal in question was a guinea pig is “ highly prejudicial “. The judge should have demanded that the animal be only
referred to as a creature in “the rat family “.

[Jason Roehl]

A certain YouTuber (self-defense expert, and has analyzed tens of thousands of videos of violent incidents) I watch has a couple of phrases he uses regularly that I like:

”You put the quarter in the jukebox, you get to dance the dance.”

”Don’t go stupid places, at stupid times, with stupid people, and do stupid things.”

With regards to the last one, he often mentions that you might get away with violating one, but if you often break more than that, it will eventually catch up with you.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I don't understand. He got screwed by the system, but I shouldn't feel bad because he had a minor (?) drug charge?

Were you a defense attorney then? My grandpa was a defense attorney. Lots of stories.
He was sentenced to more than eight months on the drug charge. The time he spent pretrial for the charge he was acquitted on was applied to that (longer) sentence.

If you are actually serving more than eight months, some people might not consider that to be a "minor" charge.

The person who made the false report and likely committed perjury probably faced no consequences.

If you want to fix the system, that would be a good place to start.

[Curt Harms]

Well Perry, I agree. There is a old saying that goes….something like this. “They made him the guinea pig”. As an attorney ,you know that
the fact that the animal in question was a guinea pig is “ highly prejudicial “. The judge should have demanded that the animal be only
referred to as a creature in “the rat family “.

The judge could have used the name cavy, which is the proper name.

www.acbaonline.com

Yes, Cavy shows are a thing:)