Record 44? Why always in the UK?

[Peter Daniels]

I make boxes. And (mostly) only boxes. With the occasional shelf thrown in, though it’s under the sink or somewhere else. Hidden. Forgotten but used.
The boxes are often gifts. Sometimes requests. One was for a dear dear friend. Though he’s still alive so hasn’t used it yet. Pine.

As my sliver of skills has improved, I’m finally able to find a bit of satisfaction in some aspects of the boxes. I really like how cleanly the floors inset in a small walnut box. Something you might throw your keys/change into as you walk into your home.
A box that gets used daily in a busy life. Sturdy and not terrible to look at. But nothing you would worry about if a cat knocked if to the floor.

Recently I started to worry that an inset floor might expand w/ heat/moisture and push those carefully mitered corners apart.
Haven’t seen it happen yet. My concern began when someone gave me some “really crappy” mahogany. Why crappy I asked? He said it wasn’t stable.

So those very same floors that I liked might need to change. And so I’m now teaching myself how to make clean grooved that a floor can sit in, floating a bit. Able to grown/shrink without damaging a small box’s corners.

That led me to the Record 44 Plow Plane. Pretty perfect for the task. At least as perfect as the overpriced and so nice Veritas Skew Rabbet plane that I am always happy to use.

As I wander eBay looking at various Records I find battered versions, missing parts. And showroom classics. Some are cheap. Some less so. But all have the hefty shipping that comes with a lump of steel being sent across the ocean.

Two questions-
Why are they all in the UK?
And what US based company might offer such a tool? K

Thanks.
-PD

[Jim Koepke]

Record tools are made in England. Not many made it over here.

You might try looking for a Stanley #50:

486892

I think they are about the same size. The later Stanley's have a lever adjuster whereas the Records have a threaded adjuster.

Patrick Leach often has Record planes for sale on his monthly list > http://www.supertool.com < Start here and click on through. You might try sending him an email to see if he has anything on hand.

jtk

[Tom M King]

When looking at Record combination planes, look past any 044C you come across. I bought one new when they were available. The depth stop is probably the worst ever, and not even useable. I like the cutters though, and they fit in Stanley 45's and 55's.

[Tim Best]

Jim hit it on the head. Record was made in England. If memory serves, Record often produced clones of Stanley offerings once patents expired. Record also produced unique tools. Record also received a significant boost from a “Made in England” campaign post-1929ish. That said, I picked my first 044 up from Ed Lebetkin. He tends to get a lot of tools from the UK. Worth dropping him an email to ask or drop into the store if you find yourself in that part of North Carolina.

edlebetkin@gmail.com

[Tom M King]

They were sold at retail here at least into the '80's. I think that, and the '70's were when I bought all mine.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Not answering your questions, but another option:
1. Mark the groove sides using a marking gauge
2. Saw the walls of the grove using a rip filed backsaw
3. Remove the waste using a router plane, chisel or a crank necked chisel.

[Jim Koepke]

Not answering your questions, but another option:
1. Mark the groove sides using a marking gauge
2. Saw the walls of the grove using a rip filed backsaw
3. Remove the waste using a router plane, chisel or a crank necked chisel.

And clean up the sides of the slots with side rabbet planes. :D

jtk

[Brian Deakin]

I live in the Uk
If you are happy to pay the shipping there is a uk auction house that sells woodworking tools They have about 6 sales per year 3 general tool sales and 3 collector tool sales
https://www.davidstanley.com (https://www.davidstanley.com/l)
Please note you need to read the conditions of sale as in addition to the sale price there are other charges
Looking to the future it has been suggested the Uk government may not charge the Vat element for overseas buyers

[Nathan Johnson]

I bought my 043 from Jim Bode tools.

https://www.jimbodetools.com/pages/search-results-page?q=Record%20044

[Derek Cohen]

So those very same floors that I liked might need to change. And so I’m now teaching myself how to make clean grooved that a floor can sit in, floating a bit. Able to grown/shrink without damaging a small box’s corners.

That led me to the Record 44 Plow Plane. Pretty perfect for the task. At least as perfect as the overpriced and so nice Veritas Skew Rabbet plane that I am always happy to use.

Peter, I am curious to know whether you realise that you are comparing apples with oranges. The Record #044 is a plough plane, specialising on grooves. The Veritas Skew Rabbet plane would make a frightful mess of the grooves for your box, as it is a rebate plane.

Also curious to know why you consider anything overpriced if "so nice"?

I would be looking at the Veritas Small plow - buy once.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

Here in the states Stanley 45's are pretty common and can be picked up cheap if you have patience. You can find them under $100 with the irons if you hunt hard enough. The 45 can be a little finicky to set up but once you get the hang of it, it's a perfectly functional tool.

Otherwise if you want a quality tool now, I second Derek's advice about the veritas small plow plane.

[Daniel Culotta]

Derek, if I'm reading the original post correctly, the comment on the Veritas plane was meant to read as: a Record 44 seems as nicely suited to making grooves as a the Veritas filister is to making rabbets. As in the Veritas is really good at what it does (not that he tries to make grooves with the rabbet plane).

To the OP - It was mentioned before, but I have a Stanley 50 that is a great basic plow (like the Veritas small plow), and is less complex than combo planes like 45s and 55s. I'm not sure what prices are like now, but right before the pandemic I picked one up in very nice shape with a full set of cutters for under $100. Might be a good alternative to hunting down a Record or paying 4x as much for the Veritas.

[Mike Allen1010]

I have a record plow plane I’ve had since the 1970s, and I can say unequivocally it’s probably the sloppiest, least effective hand tool in my shop. Fence adjustments not parallel, depth stop doesn’t work (incredibly bizarre 1970s engineering solution of an expanding plastic collar that is supposed to hold it in place when compressed), other than that how did you like to play Mrs. Lincoln?

Previous posters hit on the head for options: Stanley 45 or 55 (also in my opinion finicky to set up), or the LV plow plane. For my money the Lee Valley plow plane is a perfect hand tool – simple, extremely effective at intended job. As much as I make grooves in my furniture and other projects, it’s well worth having a dedicated tool that does the job extremely well. Just my two cents, your mileage may vary.

Best, Mike

[Mark Gibney]

Is there any love here for a Stanley #46 skew combination plane?
I picked one up years ago, and it has sat in the box I got it in all this time. When I read threads like this I got a jolt of yikes! the years are flying by and I need to put that plane to use!

[Jim Koepke]

I have a record plow plane I’ve had since the 1970s, and I can say unequivocally it’s probably the sloppiest, least effective hand tool in my shop. Fence adjustments not parallel, depth stop doesn’t work (incredibly bizarre 1970s engineering solution of an expanding plastic collar that is supposed to hold it in place when compressed), other than that how did you like to play Mrs. Lincoln?

Previous posters hit on the head for options: Stanley 45 or 55 (also in my opinion finicky to set up), or the LV plow plane. For my money the Lee Valley plow plane is a perfect hand tool – simple, extremely effective at intended job. As much as I make grooves in my furniture and other projects, it’s well worth having a dedicated tool that does the job extremely well. Just my two cents, your mileage may vary.

Best, Mike

Mike, does your Record from the 1970s look like this?

487002

I recall seeing something like that at Whole Earth Access back in the 1970s.


Is there any love here for a Stanley #46 skew combination plane?
I picked one up years ago, and it has sat in the box I got it in all this time. When I read threads like this I got a jolt of yikes! the years are flying by and I need to put that plane to use!

I have a #46 but only have a couple of blades. I haven't gotten around to setting mine up either.

I have to agree with Mike about the #45 & #55 being a bit finicky. Even the #50 is easier and mine doesn't have a blade adjuster.

For my test drive of the Veritas Small Plow Plane > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251419

Other planes are also compared.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

Yes Jim, my plow plane looks exactly like your picture.

[Graham Haydon]

Hi Peter

Based on the fact you're making small boxes, have you looked into the Record 040 and 043? Marples and Rapier made versions too. Plenty on eBay, not sure if they all have international shipping.

For small work they are excellent. For scale there's a photo here.
https://www.faceedgewoodworking.com/blog/the-record-040-plough-plane

[Jim R Edwards]

I agree with Derek. The veritas plow plane is based loosely off the Record 44 and is a very good plane.

[Peter Daniels]

I’ve tried this technique but (I’m blaming me here, not the technique) am finding issues w/ the narrow remaining sliver of wood tearing out. Ive been unable to dependably do this for the smaller tolerances I’m using.
Maybe it’s wood that splits easily. Maybe it’s my hamfisted technique.

I’ll keep at it.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Peter

Based on the fact you're making small boxes, have you looked into the Record 040 and 043? Marples and Rapier made versions too. Plenty on eBay, not sure if they all have international shipping.

For small work they are excellent. For scale there's a photo here.
https://www.faceedgewoodworking.com/blog/the-record-040-plough-plane

Peter, along with the Veritas Small Plow - which is at #1 position - the Record/Rapier #043 (I have had both, still have and use the Record) is a great plough plane for smaller work. The #043 can use the Veritas Small Plow blades, which take it up a few notches in performance.

There are numerous example on my website of using the #043. It's short length makes it the preferred plough for curved edges. here is a pictorial (from an article on my website) of rebating on a bow-fronted drawer ....

The drawer bottom is now made. As mentioned earlier, the Tasmanian Oak is quarter sawn. The bottoms are 10mm thick. This will provide a 3/16” tongue, a 3mm upper rebate, and a 1mm lower rebate.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_ea175d.jpg


Look carefully behind the drawer front for the gap due to the bow. The bow is subtle – just enough to reduce a “slab” look of straight drawers.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_17d9b01a.jpg


A washer is the tool of choice to scribe the front rebate – stick the pencil in the hole and run it along the drawer back.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_351e7874.jpg


A jackplane and spokeshave remove the waste to the scribed line.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_4864b65c.jpg


Score the rebate. This is important also as to prevent any tearout.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_1452abca.jpg


I used a Rapier #043 (copy of the no-longer-available Record #043) to plane the rebate. This is a small plough and better able to work along a curve than a larger plough plane.


To avoid planing over the scribed line, I worked to within 1mm of it …


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_41727b4d.jpg


… pared back to the line …




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m2d560127.jpg


… and then cleaned up with a small shoulder plane.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m2fc7009e.jpg


The completed job.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/BuildingTheDrawers_html_m491d5e4a.jpg



Regards from Perth

Derek

[Peter Daniels]

What a wonderful community this is. Thank you everyone.
I’m not sure I can hit all the high points you all introduced but-
Why do I think the Veritas is overpriced but still so nice? Good question. More than likely just some leftover thrifty side of me that feels guilty for spending so much on a tool that occasionally gets used.
But for other more commonly used Veritas tools- I find that though they are wonderful- refurbishing an old battered eBay/barn find is very rewarding and gives me a tool that is so close to a Veritas for my uses. I haven’t seen that the extra $$ spend on a Veritas has resulted in any large improvements in my work.

I’m not using the skew plane to make a groove. I use it for a rabbet but am learning that my design could result in floors that expand and damage the joints of my boxes. So am trying to find a clever way to make clean grooves in wood. Seems like I can do all the occasional tricks to create something, but not often in a way that can be easily/commonly replicated. So, I might make a groove w/ a saw and narrow chisel. But then will create some big splinter or damage on the next edge of a box.

Derek- I’ ve fallen down that rabbit hole of your knowledge before. It’s a slippery slope. Most of the time I love your ideas but don’t (yet) have the skills to replicate the work. So I tuck tricks away in my head (like the washer idea) and hope to be able to recall it at some time in the future.

I’ll likely end up convincing myself that $50 on shipping from the UK is worth it, unless I find one closer to home.

Years ago I was into HAM radio. Great fun but really hard to find people willing to share their knowledge. Any shops seemed full of folks that weren’t willing to go too far out of their way to help a beginner like me. But now and then, I’d find that small group that was willing and excited to be there for my questions. Sawmill reminds me of those same helpful people.

As before, as always, thank you for your help.

[Tom M King]

The absolute easiest plane to cut a groove with is a dedicated grooving plane. The old wooden type with a metal skate. I have one that I modified the iron width to work with 1/4" plywood for drawer bottoms. A combination plane will work, but never as easily as a grooving plane, or so it seems to me. You are limited by the iron width for groove width, and spacing from the edge is fixed, but you can easily modify that if you are cutting the same groove a lot.

The combination plane has all sorts of adjustments that the grooving plane doesn't have, but for one that you don't have to set and can just pick up and use, try a grooving plane.

[Jim Koepke]

The absolute easiest plane to cut a groove with is a dedicated grooving plane.

Can't argue with this. Sometimes my #45 is used to start a flute (round groove) and a wooden round plane is used to finish.

For a slot, my #50 has been set up for the same 1/4" slot for years now. At the price it made it very reasonable.

jtk

[Peter Daniels]

It’s late. The home is asleep and I’m just surfing along catching up on your input.
Astounding how many various planes there are to do the job. Too many to keep track of. Even now I’d have to search to find which Stanley someone might be talking about if they say a specific number.
I keep thinking that, as suggested, perhaps I have the tools to do the work, if not the skill. Or maybe just not yet.

A careful bit of work w/ a saw against a fence might give me the accuracy I’m looking for. Though each time I reach for a chisel I tend to quickly remove more than I’d like.
Veritas makes plenty of small low cost narrow blades that’ll fit the Stanley 71 I already have.

Perhaps in a week or three I’ll be following up w/ you all to say that I’m getting somewhere making narrow grooves for a floor to sit in.

-PD

[Jim Koepke]

Veritas makes plenty of small low cost narrow blades that’ll fit the Stanley 71 I already have.

Some of the later #71s (after 1939) were made to use a fence. > http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan10.htm < That would be very helpful to making slots.

jtk