Can we talk about bottoms?

[David Zor]

Drawer bottoms that is.

I haven't built any casework with drawers yet, but I'm starting in on a dutch tool chest and I plan on putting a drawer (or pair of drawers) in the lower compartment. In the near future I'd like to build a blanket chest with a single drawer in it.

My questions are what methods and tools do you prefer for bottoming drawers? I suppose we could expand that to materials as well. For grooved bottoms there are a couple of plane options for the groove that are made today, but they're pricey. Veritas plow plane for $259 and the Red Rose purpose built drawer bottom plane for $295. Is there another tool that makes will precisely make those grooves? Or a somewhat readily available vintage option that doesn't require lots of futzing to get it working well? Are there other joinery methods for drawer bottoms that are just as durable as a grooved bottom and don't require a specialty tool?

For non-period correct pieces of furniture, what is your go-to material for drawer bottoms? 1/4" ply? Veneered hardboard? Something else? I suppose my biggest priority for this would be long term durability. I'd like what I make to last at least one lifetime, hopefully more.

Thanks in advance for the discussion on bottoms.

[Tony Wilkins]

There’s lot’s of ways to make a groove. If they’re small drawers that won’t see a lot of weight you could even skip the groove and nail the bottoms on. You could saw out the edges of a groove and use a router plane. You could even march along in a line with a groove sized chisel and clear out the chips. The advantage of a drawer bottom plane is lack of required setup. A plow plane has setup but makes repeated results easier.

[David Bassett]

Pretty sure the sliding trays in the (English tool chest described in the) Anarchist's Tool Chest book have bottoms that are just nailed on. Since those trays serve pretty much the same purpose as your drawer, maybe look at their details.

For drawers in general, slips are a solution for drawers with sides too thin to easily groove.

It seems like there was a recent thread that covered a lot more options, though not specifically for a tool chest.

[Tyler Bancroft]

For grooved bottoms there are a couple of plane options for the groove that are made today, but they're pricey. Veritas plow plane for $259 and the Red Rose purpose built drawer bottom plane for $295.

Lots of vintage plow planes out there for substantially less. I just picked up a Record 044 for about a third the cost of the Veritas. (I have the Veritas, and it's a great plane, but there are definitely vintage options.)

[David Zor]

Thanks for the replies so far. David, I'm definitely considering making the drawers similar to the tills described in the ATC book, but I'm also thinking about using them as practice for future joinery tasks. I revied some recent threads and Derek from Perth obviously has a wealth of knowledge that he shares on here. Mighty kind of him.

As far as slips are concerned, are they just glued to the thin drawer side? or is there a fastener or pin in there somewhere?

[Tim Best]

+1 on the vintage plow (plough) planes. I have a Record 044 and I simply enjoy using it. In fact, I used it earlier today to plow some grooves for drawer fronts and draw bottoms. I have nothing against the Veritas plow and it is highly thought of but it’s expensive. The Record 043 is usually a bit cheaper than the 044 and just as easy to use. Both are easy to find with cutters. If you happen to find an 044 without cutters, I am fairly certain the Veritas cutters will work with the 044.

[Jim Koepke]

… I'm definitely considering making the drawers similar to the tills described in the ATC book, but I'm also thinking about using them as practice for future joinery tasks.

Since this is going to be more than a one off proposition my suggestion would be to consider acquiring one of the previously mentioned planes or even a Stanley #45 or #50.

Depending on your locality, the material for drawer slips might have to be made in your shop. That is likely possible if you have a table saw. You might even be able to cut slots in drawer sides with a table saw. My not having a table saw means my thoughts on this could be very wrong.

For drawer bottoms plywood works for me. If you notice on a lot of drawer builds the back of the drawer is made to allow the bottom to slide in and out. It makes for easy replacement if or when needed.

Another option is to make your own wooden plane to use a 1/4" chisel as the blade for cutting the slots for drawer bottoms.

Here is an old post on that > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?205868

jtk

[David Bassett]

Thanks for the replies so far. David, I'm definitely considering making the drawers similar to the tills described in the ATC book, but I'm also thinking about using them as practice for future joinery tasks. I revied some recent threads and Derek from Perth obviously has a wealth of knowledge that he shares on here. Mighty kind of him.

As far as slips are concerned, are they just glued to the thin drawer side? or is there a fastener or pin in there somewhere?

Yes, Derek is a treasure and his generosity is amazing.

As far as the slips, I think they're usually just glued. (It's long grain to long grain.) But I can't think of why you couldn't pin them.

BTW- if making slips you'd still want a plow plane, or something to cut grooves.

[David Zor]

Jim, like you I don't have a table saw, and I'd prefer to keep it that way. For machinery I've got a bandsaw, drill press and am in the process of putting together an old Delta/Milwaukee lathe from the 40's for turning spindles. I also recently bought a "lunchbox" planer since my closest source for lumber is a local sawmill that is almost exclusively rough sawn p. pine, fir and larch. I know it's not ideal for furniture construction, but it is available and very reasonably priced. Northwest Montana isn't exactly known for her hardwoods.

I'll now be on the hunt for a Record 043 or 044. Thank you all for the suggestions.

Now, on to the bottoms themselves... Is 1/4" plywood an acceptable option for non-period work? Is there a product at available at home centers that is a go-to for some of you?

[Derek Cohen]

David, there are basically three ways to attach a drawer bottom: grooves in the drawer sides, slips glued to the drawer sides, and nailed on.

Nailed drawer bottoms are still often a feature of Japanese furniture. I see the value for fast production, but this method lack elegance.

The choice is either grooves or slips. Slips are a choice when drawer sides are thin, say 6 or 7mm thick. They do two things: provide a groove for the drawer side without weakening the thin drawer sides; secondly, they add a wider registration/running surface to the underside of the drawer side. This extends the life of the drawer side and the drawer blades.

Below is a drawer where the slips can be seen from the rear …

https://i.postimg.cc/3Nfpmy1Q/65699-F70-39-BE-4661-A9-C2-A6-C9-D63-CEEA4.png

All the drawers I build for chests, tables and other non-workshop furniture use thin sides as I find this more attractive that the more common 12mm thick drawer sides I find commonly in USA furniture. The thinner drawer sides are likely an influence from the UK.

Drawer bottoms into rounded drawer slips. This was David Charlesworth’s favourite method …

https://i.postimg.cc/8zCp5b49/Drawer-Bottoms-Into-Slips-html-3233bbf0.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/4b8aec4d-9bab-49a6-9f92-040cbbc6f7bf

This is my method for making a drawer slip …

Plane a groove in a board. This is Tasmanian Oak. The plane is the Veritas Small Plow. The board is held on an adjustable sticking board.

https://i.postimg.cc/59qD0Nhd/Slip1.jpg

Round the top with a beading plane …

https://i.postimg.cc/15m2N1Sg/Slip2.jpg

Then rip away the slip …

https://i.postimg.cc/c4FjRk1F/Slip3.jpg

It is not essential, but you can add a tenon at the end. This aids alignment with the groove behind the drawer front.

I shall not go into this further here. Too many details. This is just the basics. Ask if you want more.

Drawer bottoms are 99% solid wood, with the grain running across the drawer. This permits expansion towards the rear and not the sides (which would cause binding). I only use ply if the drawers are for the workshop.

Drawer thickness, if planed down using a thicknesser/planer, is generally 1/4”. A 1/8” rebate may be used with slips to raise them level with the beaded top. Frankly, you can use whatever thickness you want (as long as it fits underneath the drawer) and then just chamfer the edges to fit the groove.

Here is a drawer bottom rebate with a test slip …

https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/4b4676a6-302a-4af1-9ee4-f2a89317f75e
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/0dede7f7-01f1-4588-81f5-9a2a732c0c12
https://i.postimg.cc/9F7z2bxp/Entry-Hall-Table-For-ANiece14-html-424748f9.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Ellenberger]

I use the Veritas small plow plane and really like it. Before I got it I cut the grooves for a couple of drawers using a chisel. That is do-able, but a plow plane (or some other solution) makes the job much faster and easier.

I use 1/4” ply for almost every drawer bottom, unless I am being very fancy. Home Depot usually has decent grade ply. You do want to check it carefully though. 1/4” is not always 1/4”. If it is a little over you can plane it to fit, but it is really easy to go all the way through the outer ply. I got a 3/16 blade for my plow plane so I can use the stuff that is a little under-sized.

I have a Woodcraft near me and I usually spring for some of their Baltic birch. It’s much nicer. I haven’t bought any in a while, so I have no idea about current price or availability.

[Kevin Adams]

Derek, love the adjustable sticking board. Is that on your site? Need to check later.

Thanks, hope all is well.
Kevin

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, love the adjustable sticking board. Is that on your site? Need to check later.

Thanks, hope all is well.
Kevin

Thanks Kevin. Here is the link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/AdjustableStickingBoard2.html

https://i.postimg.cc/XY1kDF8d/Adjustable-Sticking-Board2-html-e862027.jpg
https://sawmillcreek.org/blob:https://sawmillcreek.org/077613f6-b712-458d-b50a-06dbb4171c6c

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kevin Adams]

Thanks, Derek, nice work as always!

Kevin

[Charles Guest]

Use slips so you don't have to weaken the drawer side by ploughing a groove into it.

Slips are a perfect opportunity to use hot hide glue as well. You can add a little pin or two, front and back and in the groove, after the glue fully sets in a day or so. Punch the head of the pin down and make sure it's not so long it'll come out of the drawer side.

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek,
I've never been completely clear on one point about using slips - could you please clear me up?

Specifically, when using slips, do you groove the front of the drawer so that the bottom slides into that?

If not, how do you keep from having a small gap where the bottom meets the front of the drawer?

Thank you Sir,
Fred

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Fred

The groove in the slip lies in exactly the same plane as the groove at the rear of the drawer back ..

https://i.postimg.cc/k4NbPwGp/Drawer-Bottoms-Into-Slips-html-m6b8f08d9.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/6q9GWRG5/Drawer-Bottoms-Into-Slips-html-3f230571.jpg

The slip is fitted to the drawer back so that the drawer bottom can run through.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

Derek,
I've never been completely clear on one point about using slips - could you please clear me up?

Specifically, when using slips, do you groove the front of the drawer so that the bottom slides into that?

If not, how do you keep from having a small gap where the bottom meets the front of the drawer?

Thank you Sir,
Fred

The front is grooved and lines up with the slip. Use the same fence setting on your plough plane or router. The drawer bottom fits into three grooves -- one in the drawer front, and the two side slips. The drawer bottom is then screwed to the drawer back with a single roundhead screw and washer, through a notch in the drawer bottom. The screw is snugged up lightly to allow the drawer side to move. Its orientation is the grain running from side-to-side. The slips have to be notched at the drawer back - the notch forms a rebate that runs the thickness of the drawer back.

[Frederick Skelly]

Derek, Charles - thank you very much!
Fred

[David Zor]

Thank you everyone for the discussion. I’ve got a plan drawn up for the drawers in the toolchest and an idea in my head for the blanket chest. Derek, those slips are the cat’s meow.

Now on to finding a Record 043 or 044 and making that adjustable sticking board.

[Charles Guest]

Thank you everyone for the discussion. I’ve got a plan drawn up for the drawers in the toolchest and an idea in my head for the blanket chest. Derek, those slips are the cat’s meow.

Now on to finding a Record 043 or 044 and making that adjustable sticking board.


You don't need a sticking board to make slips. They are run on wider stock and ripped off the board.

Once your plane is set up, run enough for your next few projects. They should only be made in quarter or perhaps riftsawn material. Band them together in twos, back-to-back and lay them flat for storage.

[Stu Gillard]

You don't need a sticking board to make slips. They are run on wider stock and ripped off the board.


That's exactly how I do it.
I just nail the wider board to my well patinated bench.
I then use a hollow to make the top profile.

486893

[Jim Koepke]

That's exactly how I do it.
I just nail the wider board to my well patinated bench.
I then use a hollow to make the top profile.

486893

Hi Stu, what plow plane are you using?

jtk

[Stu Gillard]

Hi Stu, what plow plane are you using?

jtk

Hi Jim,

It's a Record 044.
It came with only 1 cutter, but it was a 1/4" which is perfect for drawer bottoms I make. I leave it set up for this sole purpose.
I have a Record 050 with a full range of irons for beading/rebates/dados etc.

[Derek Cohen]

You don't need a sticking board to make slips. They are run on wider stock and ripped off the board.

Once your plane is set up, run enough for your next few projects. They should only be made in quarter or perhaps riftsawn material. Band them together in twos, back-to-back and lay them flat for storage.

Charles, you are correct - one does not need a sticking board for grooving. What does need is a way to secure the board when ploughing a groove. So .. clamp, Doe’s Foot, end vise, sticking board … name your poison.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[chris carter]

One of the best tools I ever made was a dedicated grooving plane. ¼” wide, ¼” deep, and ¼” away from the edge. There is no setup. It’s always ready to go. It’s a one trick pony, but it’s a trick that’s needed over and over and over again. All it does is cut grooves for drawer bottoms, box bottoms, enclosed case backs, grooves for table top buttons, etc. So much easier than setting up my combo plane for the same exact task, and quite frankly, cuts better grooves with less effort because it is downright impossible to not cut an absolutely perfect groove. And it was dead simple to make as well. I made it when I had minimal handtool woodworking skills and was still trying to get into woodworking with power tools. I just used the the blade from a cheap box store chisel for the iron. You can find plenty of used ones on the auction sites – most commonly as the groove part of a tongue and groove pair.

486943486944

As for the bottom panel, plywood is the easiest. For something I totally don’t care about, I’ll use plywood if I have it because it’s dimensionally stable – makes things simple. If I care even halfway about the project, I’ll resaw a board down to 3/8 – 1/2 “ thick. Then glue those together for whatever size I need, plane the top side smooth and flat, roughly plane the bottom to whatever I need (nobody will see the bottom – and it proves it was made by hand!). Then I use a jack plane to bevel the edges until it fits in the grooves.

As for holding the drawer side for planing the groove, I typically just use holdfasts. The front side of my bench has a row of dog holes for use with a dog in the end vise (doesn’t get used much). Moving back, I have a bunch of scattered holdfast holes that get used constantly. So I just work on the back side of my bench for this kind of task and some of my holdfast holes are placed specifically for being able to hold stuff at the back edge of the bench.

[David Zor]

You don't need a sticking board to make slips. They are run on wider stock and ripped off the board.

Once your plane is set up, run enough for your next few projects. They should only be made in quarter or perhaps riftsawn material. Band them together in twos, back-to-back and lay them flat for storage.

I know I don't "need" the sticking board, but it looks like a great way to capture smaller parts. I use holdfasts and a doe's foot currently, but I haven't made a lot of case work, so my experience is quite limited.

Chris Carter,
That dedicated plane is lovely. When I gain more confidence, and have more time, I'd like to make one.

[David Zor]

Now, to potentially change the topic a bit...

Is there a reference out there for what irons are interchangeable with what plow/plough planes? A friend kindly offered me a spare Stanley 45 that is a spare for him for a price I couldn't pass up. However, I'll need to provide my own irons. Do the currently manufactured Veritas irons fit any of the vintage planes? What is the interchangeability between the Record 043 and 044? Interchangeability between Record and Stanley? And how about internal to Stanley? 45 and 55 fit eachother?

[chris carter]

Regarding sticking boards, they really don’t need to be fancy and can be thrown together from scrap and a couple minutes. I don’t have the original photos and I can’t grab them from my Instagram. So here’s a link to my post on Instagram with two pictures.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWyHpCqrDvJ/

It’s literally just a random flat board with some screws put in one end, plus any reasonably straight board. Hold it down with holdfasts. It’s infinitely adjustable, cost nothing, and took only a couple minutes to make. I don’t require a sticking board very often, but this always works.

[David Bassett]

Now, to potentially change the topic a bit...

Is there a reference out there for what irons are interchangeable with what plow/plough planes? A friend kindly offered me a spare Stanley 45 that is a spare for him for a price I couldn't pass up. However, I'll need to provide my own irons. Do the currently manufactured Veritas irons fit any of the vintage planes? What is the interchangeability between the Record 043 and 044? Interchangeability between Record and Stanley? And how about internal to Stanley? 45 and 55 fit eachother?

I don't know a reference doc. Searching this site I found that Stanley made irons as recently as 2011 from pretty decent steel. That Veritas irons aren't exactly the same, but usually sorta' mostly work. Though, depending on your exact plane, you might have to take a file and make a few minor adjustments. Of course, you can sometimes find used or NOS original irons for sale. And also, many people just make their own from 01 steel blanks. (Lots of online help for heat treating 01. Singe plow plane irons are skinny and you only need to harden the first 1/2" to 1" it can be as simple as a propane torch and a bucket / can of high smoke point vegetable oil.)

[Charles Guest]

Regarding sticking boards, they really don’t need to be fancy and can be thrown together from scrap and a couple minutes. I don’t have the original photos and I can’t grab them from my Instagram. So here’s a link to my post on Instagram with two pictures.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWyHpCqrDvJ/

It’s literally just a random flat board with some screws put in one end, plus any reasonably straight board. Hold it down with holdfasts. It’s infinitely adjustable, cost nothing, and took only a couple minutes to make. I don’t require a sticking board very often, but this always works.

That's all you need.

It's also nice to have another work surface in the shop you don't mind putting a nail or screw into -- something made with cheap fir or MDF with a hardboard top.

If you let it, hand tool woodworking can be a respite from the elaborate jigging often required when running power tools. My favorite end stop is a Home Depot yard stick nailed to the bench top with a couple 4d finish nails. It's infinitely adjustable, where most are not. Get two or three yardsticks (or rip some battens when you get bored) and trap a workpiece for hand planing and other stuff in less than 20 seconds. Again, infinitely adjustable to whatever size component you're working on, and wherever on the bench you'd like to do the work. Beats scratching your head, or some other part of your body in the nether region, trying to make something work with a holdfast hole pattern that never seems to be just right.

Making hand tool jigs with a the services of a European sliding table saw along with a full complement of other power equipment at your disposal is a conversation for another day. Seems to miss the spirit of the thing.

[Graham Haydon]

Give that man a medal

[Jim Koepke]

Now, to potentially change the topic a bit...

Is there a reference out there for what irons are interchangeable with what plow/plough planes? A friend kindly offered me a spare Stanley 45 that is a spare for him for a price I couldn't pass up. However, I'll need to provide my own irons. Do the currently manufactured Veritas irons fit any of the vintage planes? What is the interchangeability between the Record 043 and 044? Interchangeability between Record and Stanley? And how about internal to Stanley? 45 and 55 fit eachother?

Here is an old post that may help answer some of this > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251419

The Veritas blades may work in a Stanley #45 but they are of a shorter length which means shorter life over the time they are used.

The Stanley #55 uses many blades that can be used on a #45. Some of the standard blades for a #55 were available as special blades for the #45. One thing the #55 has the #45 doesn't is an adjustable depth on the movable skate. This allows the #55 to use non-symmetrical blades.

The #55 also has a fence than can be angled for use in certain situations.

Another use of the #55 gave me an idea about stopped cuts with the #45 > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?257497

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

David, the Veritas small plow blades work in the Record #043.

Regards from Perth

Derek